₦airaland Forum

its sad how some people let sentimentality cloud their judgement. Remove the overtones of Torture, self righteousness, finger pointing and debate the facts for crying out loud

[quote author=Kilode?! link=topic=593966.msg7616273#msg7616273 date=1296159888]Bro, argue now. Show me where I mentioned stealing a pen or beating your wife.

I gave two examples.

1. Forced and arranged marriages and societies who victimize and sometimes kill those who speak out against them.

2. Killing someone because they spoke out against an oppressive blasphemy law( If you don't know Taseer's story, google it)


If you want to justify the killing of gays because you believe their act is satanic, fine. But then, you should be OK with the killing of anyone whose act is considered satanic anywhere.

[b]See, let me break it down to you. If you want to be a bigot, it is OK. I think it's better to be an equal opportunity bigot though :[/b]D[/quote]hehehe. I like that one, will use it from now on

@obiaju1

If we stay strict on the definitions of the word as so you aspouse then being "Gay" would be outside of the confines of such act as the definition is presented,

Therefore to liken it to the act of being gay is a gross misrepresent  of the word or definition and I would suspect  an opnionated agenda to demonize an individual who is different from you.

The killer is still a "beastly" individual in my opinion

Obiagu1:
. . . and then beastly = beastiality You be real mumu.

Six year old children. What is the difference?

learn to think outside of the confines of words or definitions that have been "idoctrinated" into you. someone made up that word and the definition.

The connotation is in relation to an act performed by or on an animal. In adult language a "beast"

Obiagu1:
Use Wikipedia to get the meaning of beastiality.

. . . and how many of them came out to become "activists" on such things? Like I said before, restrict your gay activity to your room and to your room only.

I suspected you probably can't think outside of the confines of what you have been presented as definitions of beastiality.

let me make it clear to you as you are most likely a six year old.

Beastiality comes from the word "beast". A beast in comparison to a human being is incapable of using its cognitive mind to make decisions and acts out on emotional stimuli.

Therefore the person who perpetuated this act of killing another human beins is,  say it with me now a "beastly" individuals.

You support one beast while condeming another one. Nonsensical sense!

Obiagu1:
. . . and to equate gay to the above is just stupidity.

Gay is against human nature and can only be equated to beastiality.

right right . God personally gave you this wisdom and understanding to discern such matters.

What is human nature by the way. Can you explain it to me cause "beastiality" emcompasses the lack of an intellectual capacity to reason and thus engage in an emotionally charged henous act such as blugeoning another human being to death?

Do you disagree?

Obiagu1:
What gives him the right to spread satanic lifestyle in Africa?

I guess we need to do the same to idolators( people who chase money),
Gluttons,
Wrathful people
Greedy people
lustful people

Eh anyone who has comitted one of the deadly sins is satanic and should be murderd immediately right? I bet you after that only about 1000 people will remain

Nonsense reasoning!

olanrejoel:
Its funny how people change their way of thinking within a short period of time. When the tides were down and Zimbabwe was on her kneels, even Africans were labelling Muga. a bad leader. Now that the truth is out that he is a patriot, every one is hailing him,
Lesson: Even if you really know what you are doing, opposition is always in the corner, and the funniset thisng is that the opposition can be from the people you think will understand your point.

Your thoughts should be in reference to the cognitive thinking of simple minded people who follow tides. Mugabe's short term supposed progress is only bolstered again by the economic turmoil facing western powers an emergence of alternate capital sourcing markets i.e THE EAST and not necessarily on any of his fantastic abilities at strategizing a comeback for his country nor his countries ability to produce anything in particular. His other agenda on mass education as far as providing a labour and entereprneul stock of individuals and nationalization schemes is risky at best as his country does not necessary hold any monopolies on "resources" deemed to be extremly vital to the world at large i.e oil

Substituting one "imperial" relationship with another is not in my view a long term sustainable agenda simply because he wants to thumg his nose at his colonisers and the alternates have chosen not to interfer in political discourse as a preequsite to investing in the country.

How is he preparing his country for the everchanging shifts in  world economic situtions that shift often?
What leverage or comparative advantage does he believe zimbabwe will possess in the near future that would position itself as a formidable economy within African and world contexts or  the answers only beknowst to this egotistical monarch.

Simply exalting the man as a hero because in most people's minds he comes of as some sort of "defiant" messiah against the "Powers that be" is a very emotional approach to strategising resolutons and is not enough to convince me of his capabilities at charting any future for Zimbabwe at this time.

Personally I think he is dry on any new ideas and simply sitting in power waiting for his physical demise to dodge any international repacursion he will definitely face if he gives his seat up.

Brave man huh?

No one has any moral, religious, civic or human RIGHT to take the life of another human being with the exception of being threatened with the same action of violence.

Anyone and everyone who perpertrates or supports this act is a despicable neanderthal relic who needs to invent a time machine and transport himself back to the Stone age ASAP.

The act makes me want to puke!!

Here we go with the Imperialist "WESTERN PUPPET" Propaganda arguement again.

"The revolution will not be televised".

On the other hand seeing this is the 21st Century "maybe it will" lol

RSA:
From the the ground.

All the way from Gugulethu township lol

RSA:
Nigerian Police are killing civilians on a daily basis in Nigeria and you've decided not to see them.I don't know the real facts behind this story but it has nothing to do with racism nor xenophobia,your brother was probably a criminal who destroyed and killed lots of youngsters and the law finally cought up with him.
Your police modernising?please go and lie to someone else,South African police are child play when it come to brutality compare to Nigerian police,they kill,kidnap and toture without fear,they are the law unto themself.Don't tell me nothing bro!

And you get your facts from,

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=592509.msg7600875#msg7600875 date=1295970888]Blackwater is in Somalia training mercenaries to fight the pirates off the coast.

What's going on?[/quote]Business of War.

[quote author=MzD@rkSkin link=topic=342715.msg7603876#msg7603876 date=1296000429][color=#0055bb]Two whites cannot produce black children, EVER. That white woman slept with a black man and produced three children. Her dunce of a husband has some nerve being prejudiced being that dumb. [/color][/quote]I suppose you are a genecistis huh?

buzugee:
right ? having said that though, i think the wheels are starting to slowly turn. my boy in south africa says they are giving all the black people beautiful houses.

The key word here is giving. Why don't they earn the houses instead of being given government RDP housing. Please reminisce on what this did to the lower and poor class of Americans in terms of a jump in pregnancy rates, STD and a lack of drive to go look for work and productivity


Hmmm? I wonder

Mobinga:
Revolution across WHITE AFRICA! Not Black Africa.

Thats Arab/berber Africa bush man.

Correct yourself

agor1974:
south Africans cant do that,their black leaders are black skin and white in their mind,moreover their, too dem scared to even talk about land, because they have b.eee and already compensated with b.m.ws to forget their history.in most black south Africans they prefer to be fed by whites than feeding themself,i personaly conducting research about black south Africans and their neo colonist mentality.

What's that research you say you have been conducting?. South Africa the new gate way to the rest of Africa holding on to 50% of the purchasing power of the entire African continent. Only country to build a middle class in less than 10 years with a stable currency. largest organization of labour unions. What you talking about?

Mind you there are only 9 million white people who reside in S.A. and about 8% of them have emigrated out of the country. Who do you think is spending the money there.

is your reserch Malemononics 101.

Zim is only doing well because of an opening up of other alternatives of capital sourcing and the investment they have put in on education and infrastructure. A result of world economic shifts and no fantastic policies by Old man MUgabe.

Socialism for Africa as an ideology will only suceed in the short term at solving issues. Lets see how this trickles down to the people and how long it takes

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7602338#msg7602338 date=1295984567]Using the baby as my model, in what area of development should that organization begin? For the grownup already swimming in the mis-information and exploits, the individual has a shorter turnaround and so where in his/her link to life should that reorganization or reformation begin?[/quote]It begins when there is internal awarness of the self. Unfortunately this cannot be thought easily to individuals who have been hard wired into what is considered the "norm" coupled with how complex our world systems have become right now with a huge amount of stimuli beng channeled at us non stop. The game changer is the speed at which the right type of information is being channeled to us via new media which is causing massive disturbances in the economic world order and in my opinion is a good thing.

As for the baby again they are already introduced at birth into a "system", they will hold as true and right without reason, rational or question i.e a republican born child who grows up in a republican house will very likely become  republican at adult hood.

The answer again is awareness from an introduction to qucik information, questioning and dialogue early in the minds of these youngsters as they navigate through these processes i.e "everything in between". The faster the facts are analyzed the better the choice's one can make i.e. uncontrolled organic evolution.

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7602338#msg7602338 date=1295984567]For both, a reform (and sustainability) in the political process that parallel the model of change that candidate Obama promised -but yet to fulfill - will go a long way helping to reinforce whatever else method of grooming is done at the individual level.[/quote]Incremental change is all we can hope as a natural long term ans sustainable system of change

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7576689#msg7576689 date=1295623428]You are still using the "choice" term in the wrong level of response.[/quote]No I am not. You are limiting my scope of thought processes

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7576689#msg7576689 date=1295623428]There is a distance between the beginning of life and the end and if you collapse that distance then everything else that link the two ends are irrelevant and meaningless. Humans navigate that distance with the fundamental need for survival. The will to live is innate and paramount. That desire is carried out through active interaction and participation in a dynamic and vibrant symphony with the environment.[/quote]You are speaking of the "processes" involved in human interaction that is a prerequisite for human survival. Right?

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7576689#msg7576689 date=1295623428]If any person abandons his/her will to life and withdraws from participation in the factors of social interaction that contribute to collective progress (evolution) then quality of life (experience and fulfillment) for that individual is affected significantly.

Water is a basic need of life. Faced with the option of drinking tap water and bottled water, an individual responds based on experience with tap water. That's causative. . . a basic impulse triggered in memory. That's not choice.
If tap water brings memory of painful episodes in the past, then the person responds by seeking a more reliable but not necessarily risk-free alternative and if that action results in spending money to purchase the bottled water, so be it. The economic loss to the pocket is offset by the survival instinct. Anywhere life is at threat, the actions we take are not choices but causative response. Now, choice will come into play when in the store and the individual is faced with multiple brands of bottled water at varying prices.

Next, on the topic of making choice between organic food and genetically modified food, who is to say the organic food is truly from organic source and not a fraud? At the moment, the only approving authority for food products is the FDA. Contrary to popular belief, FDA is not a government agency. . . . it is an agency of lobbyists. . . . but it is niched in government quarters. You only need to consider the number of times it has had to withdraw food products and prescription drugs from market months after it initially approved those products for marketing and consumption. So in truth, there is no choice. . . . we get what the industry want us to have - in organic and inorganic food products. We the consumers go to market with pocket full of money and we strut and swagger in our pop culture attitude believing in our foolish minds that we are shaping corporate policies and decisions with our pockets but albeit, the commodity we purchase is what the descision makers in the corporate boards have pre-selected for us to have. The hip and the swagger, the pop and the struts are fed and taught to us througgh marketing strategies and branding delivered on our television screen programs.

It was reported a while back that months after Apprentice first aired, office bosses were noticing a new attitude in the workplace. We are constantly marshalled, in the name of free-enterprise, to an end that's counter effective to the theories of capitalism.[/quote]It depends on context. You have a "choice" regardless. I Know its a radical notion. I have had this arguement before with the same subject matters. Maybe a clarification is needed on my concept and context of "choice" within a given "system", in this case CAPITALISM.  Its not a coincidencee that my my avatar and forum name is borrowed from a famous philosophical and radical movie).

The explanation begins in a scene from the movie " MAtrix reloaded" where the Merovigian is entertaining NEO, Morpheus and Trinity in which there is a disagreement  on the concepts of "choice" and "cause and effect" and fate formulating the very basis and reason for existence. Please read attached excerp paying particular attention to the explanations of choice and cause and effect which is being applied by myself in the rationalization of any man made systems.

http://montalk.net/metaphys/70/freewill-fate-and-causality-in-matrix-reloaded

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7576689#msg7576689 date=1295623428]To this point, what do you propose we do in the politik of the society to effect change?[/quote]The change begins with reorganization of processes that involve disemination of information i.e the ideal of trying to continue to acquire knowledge of everyting that goes on around you. This mitigates manipulation before its effects are fully felt. This has already begun in my opinion and will eventually transform systems or intergrate them with other ones in the pursuit of finding synergies that are the true link and purpose of human existence.

This assertion  neither breaks  my fate in Capitalism as a philosophy and economic process nor is it a lack of endorsement thereof only that I understand that it  must evolve organically as an "inorganic physical system of mathematical formulaes as time and space pass.  I do not endorse an abolishment or replacement of this system in my humble opinion for its merits as well as its potentials.

You are completely disingenious to your intended audience. its people like you who like to skew information by invoking on the sentimental minds of the weak.

You did not put that video in context and are simply trying to invoke an emotional response from the viewer. Who were those men, Prisoners of War, Mutineers, Criminals. Why was there a crownd present. How did they respond? Why did they see this as a justified capture and execution, What year was this video shot?

You have no context for this video and are using the same manipulative information tactics others perperturate presenting a general view of what happens practically in every known Armed forces in West Africa. You haven't helped us understand anything about anything really

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7569977#msg7569977 date=1295535420]Concerning the issue at hand, "Persons" as used here is ambigous![/quote]The use of "persons" are in the  form of individuals or Corporations.

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7569977#msg7569977 date=1295535420]Did you watch Devil wears Prada? The movie featured Anne Hathaway and Meryl Streep - oh, I love Ms Streep and would like to see her play Hillary Clinton if a movie is ever made about the Secretary.

Anyway, in a take where Meryl was reviewing costume selection for an upcoming show, Anne was genuinely helping out sort the clothings but in her unsophisticated, simple mind - not meaning to offend - referred to a chique piece of garment as "this stuff". lol. . . . . I would like you to watch the movie and pay attention to Meryl's response as she employed class to sarcastically rebuked and put Anne in her place.
As a follow up to the above movie scene, I would also like you to read about Monsento, particularly their contribution to genetically engineered crops and seeds and what they are planning to do in future to mankind.[/quote]Fashion movies was never my Forte. Non the less without watching that particular scene, intuitively I have an idea of what you are referencing to. Thats human nature at its best.

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7569977#msg7569977 date=1295535420]I promised never to post anymore article here about Monsento because my tongue will say things that could attract unecessary attention to the forum.

There are seed genebanks in various territories in the world. They are kept as insurance against a need in future to abandon genetic sampling and save humanity.[/quote]I saw the movie Food Inc in which the above scenario was being explained so did a little digging up on the company. Yes their ideology is unethical but ony as far as the populous despite having the information about this , still do nothing as a collective to curb this agenda. Complacency is a vote of confidence in my book. This is why I am very strong on individual rights in the sense of Liberterian terms still drawing a distinction between the individual entity and the corporate entity. So long as the natural, civil and human rights are not harming, endangering or encroaching on anothers's same rights, I am all for it. The company steps outside those boundries in my view.

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7569977#msg7569977 date=1295535420]We talked about basic human physical need for food, shelter and clothing. The people of underdeveloped nations have always lived under threat of home loss but for the industrialised nations, their people just witnessed what the former had endured for years and have come to accept as way of life - sleeping in makeshift shanty communities, sleeping in abandoned cars, under bridges and in dilapidated buildings.

Well, for those industrialized citizens the next threat will be coming from food. All seeds are regenerative, naturally. You plant corn seed in the soil and in a few months you will have a yield from which you can plant more corns to produce more yield. Monsento and other similar companies in the agro business are distributing seeds that diverge from this natural order so when you plant a seed you can only get one yield cycle. If you need to produce more, you have to go back to these companies and buy more seeds. In other words, your food production is subject and contingent on patronizing and putting money in their coffers.[/quote]In terms of housing. Industrialized nations do not have a housing problem in so much as creating the problem for them selve. This stems from cultural norms,  and living habits, societal demands and societal value systems. I mean think about the average sqaure footage living space per houshold and tell  how reasonable it is for an old or young couple of two would really require a sqaure footage of 3000 or more to fil its BASIC need of shelter.

As regards food manipulation, again the premise of profit making is contingent on the ethos of DO NO HARM to your customer or client in the short or long term provided they are fairly informed of the harzards of your product and still consume it. It therefore becomes an issue of legislating behaviour which infringes onthe right to choice. Taking the Tobacoo company Bru haha of the past 30 years. How to do legislate choice?

The farmers that sign these contracts are subject to these rules because they signed a contract and were ill informed of the long term consequences and their desire for quick profit through innovative means. If you follow the movie FOOD Inc . It shows how alternatives for organic corn production and other organic planting methods can be adopted with the penalty of reduced profit margins. This is why I continue to argue that Everything begins with Choice so long as there is an alternative.

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7569977#msg7569977 date=1295535420]From here we go into health. The seed they sell you are modified to act in certain ways against their natural genetiic bloom and so it has impact on your hormones. Apple, in its natural state, has a short shelf life. . . it rots and is harmful to consumption after that. To prolong its shelf life its genes are modified. So you eat an apple from a modified seed and you start sneezing and get skin rashes, throat contracts. . . allergy reaction. Then you are forced to buy medicine to cure that.

So you see, if you listen to Meryl Streep said in her response to Anne. . . and you familiarize yourself with Monsanto and the future impact to industrialized nations. . . .and in fact all of mankind for that matter, then we should wander why is humanity saving seeds in vaults to forestall a food and health calamity in future? What is the scare? What are the risks? When you go to the root cause for answers. . . . Morpheus, there are no five righteouss "persons" in the city![/quote]Yes there are. You are focusing too much on the problems and need to work outside of its parameters. As I mentioned earlier consumer rights include people having the right to information and choice. Are there alternatives to inorganic processed foods? Yes,, there are. The fact that they are subsidized by the government i.e Corn i.e (High fructose corn syrup, pretty much in everything you eat) and therefore the lure of the cheapness of the food is an economic manipulation that needs to be addresseds. Coupled with the continous mass miseducation of the populous with supported scientific studies and rantings on governemnt incroachment on the right to choice and so on is where the underlying problem lies.

There are people out there who offer an alternate source of food in contrast to mass inorganic production of food. As Few as they may be, they need the same systems in place to forge ahead with their agendas of promoting their products over what they see as harmful food. The issue is you having the ultimate right to choose what goes into your body even after bing equiped with all the knowledge necessary of harmful effects. The libeterain views would espouse indvidual freedom to choose is above all otehr considerations, the democrat would be the social/communal implications of not protecting the individual habit and the republican ideology would seek to protect the freedom from government encroachment in the process. These are the root causes. The problem being people are too emotionally tied to issues without training their minds in deciphering complex issues. They are satified in delegating their choices away to representatives who they feel represent their best interests and thus put their lives in these individuals hands. Thats were the problem stems from. The self, the ability to make choices

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7564986#msg7564986 date=1295466011]. , . but it turned out the city could not even produce five righteous persons, beside the household of Lot. Even Lot's wife was left behind to stand as a pillar of salt.

This is not about redemption. . . its about grace! Grace leads, redemption is an after the fact safety net.[/quote]My experience and observations have led me to believe that concerning the issue at hand metaphorically speaking a good number of persons greater than five can be identified and therefore the house stands as it is in my book.

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7564382#msg7564382 date=1295459386]This is both a review of the noble man and the ignoble man. The ignoble man should not be the leader and policy maker for a nation - he leads to ruin. The top policy and power shakers in this country are largely rotten in their philosophies and ideals for the future of those they lead.[/quote]I am not religious folk but believe there are moral undertones and overtones that can be applied to the understanding of situations anc concepts we struggle with defining as "right" or "wrong" and for which there is evidence that through the course of time history often repeats itself.

Therefore I will steal just and excerp of a biblical reference to further my "view point" concerning capitalism and its players in relation to morality and "right or wrong"


So the men turned from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the LORD. Then Abraham drew near and said,("Will you indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city. Will you then sweep away the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous who are in it? Far be it from you to do such a thing, to put the righteous to death with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from you Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?" And the LORD said, "If I find at Sodom fifty righteous in the city, I will spare the whole place for their sake."

Abraham answered and said, "Behold, I have undertaken to speak to the Lord, I who am but dust and ashes. Suppose five of the fifty righteous are lacking. Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five?" And he said, "I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there." Again he spoke to him and said, "Suppose forty are found there." He answered, "For the sake of forty I will not do it." Then he said, "Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak. Suppose thirty are found there." He answered, "I will not do it, if I find thirty there." 31He said, "Behold, I have undertaken to speak to the Lord. Suppose twenty are found there." He answered, "For the sake of twenty I will not destroy it." 32Then he said, "Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak again but this once. Suppose ten are found there." He answered, "For the sake of ten I will not destroy it." And the LORD went his way, when he had finished speaking to Abraham, and Abraham returned to his place.
Genesis 18: 22

Its time for ECOMOG to act as a regional bloc and stamp out this useless cling to Power by these neaderthal leaders who have no concept of democratic progress of any sort. For the sake of a continuation of democratic principles Gbagbo needs to be unseated.

What has Gbagbo done in government to warrant his continous support. Nothing. A stagnated economy simply implementing IMF programs and borrowing money left, right and center to prop their economy up.

This squabble sets a bad precedence for the rest of West African leaders when they know they can get away with such devious acts. If I were still in the army I would have joined up to go take out that buffoon. How many troops does Ivory Coast have and how long will they survive if they don't recieve pay or weapons. Baring the notorious Russia who go give them weapon and with which money will they pay. Liberia and sierra leone at least had diamonds, wetin Ivory cost get

Its time for some whoop azz.  "Esprit de corp".

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7559161#msg7559161 date=1295388482]. . . well, let's err on the side of economics then. Would they have preferred to complete the project only for the consumers to boycott the cinemas on sacramental grounds? Where would their profit be then?

You see, I am not convinced that you believe and or support the existence of free-market enterprise as an "absolutism" of aristocratic power. Unrestrained and unregulated, that's exactly what they will become. . . an untamed dragon that demands compulsive patronage, the alternative is a lock up in its dungeon for treacherous lessons.

The totality of the objective reality of this matter should not be confused and defended by the pursuit of subjective appearance of things. This is no joke![/quote]I do not advocate for unrestrained capitalism in reference to its "absolutism" in the ability to wield unregulated influence and power which ofcourse will eventually lead to power eing centered among an elite group of individuals ie Corporations

Absolute capitalist power corrupts, ABSOLUTELY. The shift to absolute control borders on philosohies of egoism, egoist anarchists espoused by stirnerist( followers of Max stirner's philosphies) where proponents argue that it is more a matter of the power to wield control than a subject of moral, natural or communal rights that advances civilizations.

These philosphies have been floating around since the 17th, 18th century from reminants of such thought processes carried over from the Old World, however I do believe the founders of the Americas were aware of this and fully versed on its short comings stemming from tyrannical economic experiences from the Old world power brokers in the form of absolute power wielding by Monarchs, aristocratic lords and the Church, which is why they inserted elements within the consitution that oppossed these processess and promoted concepts of individual rights of ownership, rights of associations, free markets


The free market system i.e. capitalism in its simplist of definitions and practice therefoe supports and protects the rights of "individuals" to transact freely in the market place with full ownership rights to their factors of production with "Capital" being the leading variable in influencing and enhancing market transactions with a suspicious approach to government encroachment of those rigths.

The problem in its practice in most developed countries and the US in particular becomes the issue of the "Corporate" entity being confused as a synonym for the simplest version an individual entity when in fact Corporations are similar to an amalgamation of a group of bodies (controlled by a select group people who have gained an upper hand in society by virtue of the capital intensive wealth creation system) who's sole aim "may become" geared toward absolutism which is not far off from bodies that existed in the Old economies of the Old World. A sort of History repeats itself warning label

The key word I highlighted in BOLD is "may become" because not every Corporate entity is inherently "evil" in its processes and systems as a goal towards innovation, advancement and profit making. Profit making in my books is not evil as long as it does not encroach on the ethos of most Business models as to "DO NO HARM" in its pursuit to create value and sell at a profit. Matters of "intangible" acts such as the moral question of using a cementary to shoot movie scenes are a gray area and outside of the scope of such fundamental ethos which is why I mentioned earlier that the company may have some arguements in questioning the local governments baring of its intentions to shoot within the confines of the cemetary and threaten to pull its business out of such areas.

The discord therefore should focus on these matters and provide platforms to hear such grievances. What I do not support is progressive view of the lower classess by certain elements who share different philosophical and economic philosphies that ALL Corporations are inherently EVIL and are out to reap everyone off the best they can and that it is an us against them mentality that is built into the have not in society today. Instead of the true task of continuing to inform the less informed of the processes and procedures that are available to them which have be inbuilt into the system and in which they derive the power they need to create change of circumstance and change of viewpoint.

Therefore in conclusion I am an advocate fore the Capitalist system of economics because I believe that taking into account al the factors necessariy in analysis of its Good and Evils. The Goods far out way the evils in my point of view with a strong sense of acknowledging that there are problems with the system but supporting the veiw that they system evolve rather than an a revolutionist agenda of changing it all together.

IT AINT THAT BAD YET!

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7558591#msg7558591 date=1295381917]Whenever there is a decision to be made between protecting the interests of the populace at large versus allowing that interests to be walked over and devalued. . . . Government has a role to play!

The regulatory clause is there to safeguard consumer interest, it is not a choke-off instrument for controlling market.

Let me give you a clear cut example of why private investors need to be regulated.

Very recently, an entertainment film production group has secured a huge amount of financial capital to produce a sci-fi movie in Savannah, GA. They applied for permits to public grounds that will be used in the sceneries. One of the grounds is a cemetry. The county and the city both reviewed their applications and turned down the use of cemetry grounds for entertainment on the ground that is sacred ground with cultural values and history and the use of it for the proposed entertainment will lead to desecration.

In its response to the government denial, the entertainment company went on air and said if the city would reconsider and approve their application it would generate on average $30,000 a day in commerce locally but if it insisted on its stand then the company would not bring its production to Savannah in future, regardless if a cemetry scene is involved or not.

Now. . . this company is threatening punitive action if its not allowed to have its way to desecrate the burial grounds.

In view of everything else that you have argued for in this discussion, you believe this production company is doing the right thing?

Personally, I hope the District Attorney for Savannah files an extortion charge against this company. Imagine how many times and in many various ways that the acquiescence of the government to private investors has turned out, after the fact, to hurt and damage values in the communities, individually and collectively.[/quote]No I do not believe they are taking an 'ethical" approach to the challenge on government in this instance. However there is a point to be argued that they do have the right to pull future business out of Savannah strictly on "business' grounds being that it is an unfavorable condition in their ability to make profit and err their grievances as well There are several factors that should be considered

Is the government truly acting on behalf of the people in this particular instance i.e does it turly represent the majority view of the said commuinty regarding this "particular" matter.

Business is ruthless and has never been pleasant, that's part of the culture."This is business, nothing personal"

superboi:
Mors man my let me put my question on Gbagbo to you in the most simple format

1. Do you support the precedence set by Quattara and his people, that held the country hostage for 8 year with violence.

No I do not condone it. I however do understand the reason for the stale mate bases on economic and historical contexts. And?

superboi:
2. Do you believe the UN/USA/France is fair by willing to enter a country to fight a legitimate Armed force, but eight years earlier not supporting that armed force appropriatly to ouster the same rebel movement it is now willing to enpower?

What the UN/USA/France does is in their own interest. "Fair' is a relative term. This does not exonerate the buffons who run these governments in their stagnated thought processes and sentimental attachments to historical matters.

superboi:
Don't you think if Quattara feels he won he should go to the Ivorian courts( If he loses or win this will enpower the ivorian people to believe more in their system and their selves, something you seem to desire in every African?) or street and look for support and not planning to the UN?

last time I checked the UN was a body instituted to negotiate in such matters outside the soverignty of most nations when there exists a dispute or a dissent. Didn't the Ivory coast sign on as a member state. Or were they also coerced into doing this based on their moronic ignorant brains?

superboi:
4. Don't you think the UN made a blunder by Quickly Congratulating a winner before the issues surrounding the elections were cleared?

What congratulations. They based their decision on the reports they recieved from independent bodies attached to the UN and by their observers.

superboi:
5. Can't you by anychance fathom that the election was rigged by the illiterate rebel soldiers in the north or in the south and any agrieved candidate should be given the chance to appeal?.
See my guys the issue plenty,

It is very possible the elections in the North were rigged (and I said possible not definite.) I cannot make that assertion and base my acceptance ofthe results on independent third party bodies who have no reason to subvert the true results. There are agencies out there who do that you know. Not every one is a puppet of the UN. I have seen them in action.

That being the case in a response by manipulating consitutional powers to negate results one side sees as not favorable to them is not doing the country any good. The speed at which the other party was crowned winner is suspect itself don't you think?

cap28:
I now understand why we are in such a dire state as a people, so Patrice Lumumba was   "a political activist" *shakes head*   what next? I suppose  Mandela to you is probably a former terrorist - I dont blame you - i blame our educational system that has failed many of us and totally brainwashed the rest.

I kinda suspected you were going to jump on the use of the word Political activist which is why I intentionally selected that adjective. In my perspective which is obviously braoder than yours, an activist is not limited to engaging in street marches or boycotts  but in the general sense of the word encompasses someone who  actively seeks to drive change using what ever platform he or she wields to dissent or promote a certain agenda.  Lumuba is not outside of the scope of reference.



However I do understand your limited definition of the workd "activism" as  a synonym for protests, marches, sit ins and the likes. Its okay the adjective was used in a broader sense of the word. Maybe you would be more comfortable with my addressing him as the former prime minister. lol

cap28:
Why do you keep on trying to hide behind the use of meaningless big words ?

Does this bother you? Mmmmmm

cap28:
Lumumba nationalised the mines in the eastern region of Congo which were being run by the  belgian and american multinationals and for this he ended up being beaten, tortured and eventually murdered by a joint belgian and CIA operation - is it that you are incapable of understanding the most basic facts and accepting them as the truth?

If your tactic is to discredit me by attacking my knowledge of African political history then you will fail miserably. I have already mentioned the socialist/communist leanings of Lumumba in relation to the Belgians, the US and Mobutu in my past post, that should key you into my ability to analyze that particular event in history. Don't reiterate with sentimental words like "torture", I don't need the moral lecture.

cap28:
Did  you not read my last  post?, did you not read that in the last 27 YEARS the west have REFUSED AND REJECTED ALL ATTEMPTS BY AFRICAN TECHNOCRATS TO IMPLEMENT AN ALTERNATIVE ECONOMIC PROGRAMME to their Structural adjustment programmes  - what part of that do you not understand? Have you read the Lagos Plan of 1980 at all? Have you read subsequent economic plans for action by african economists who despite never seeing the Lagos Plan of 1980 HAVE STILL COME UP WITH THE SAME RECOMMENDATION THAT WE DISENGAGE FROM SAP?

How does a monetary entity stop a government of a soverign country from the ability to run its economic affairs if that govnerment is not complacent. Do you think these IMF policies are made by a group of "commanders" sitting in a corner room schemeing and dictating how african economies should run their affairs . How S.T.U.P.I.D are you to the PROCESS. African economies bring the SAP programmes on themselves when they have no where else to get funding or mismanage the initial loans given to them. Like credit card fiends they are hooked on the easy access to capital. 

No wonder you call people like Okonjo Iweala Puppets. You have no idea what she does? If these countries continue to advertise S.C.R.E.W. me (for lack of a better word) on their foreheads then they gonna get it right up the behind.

For your information There is continous discourse going on in many southern African nations South Africa, namibia and Zimbabwe included who are are moving away from dependency on IMF funded projects by focusing on their core advantages of partnering with horizontally aligned economic partners in terms of emerging market status, maintainig and continued development of their infrastructural bases to facilitate a stable condusive environment to attract capital inflow into their markets primarily from the capital markets and debt financing. Resolving political grievances despite the fact that there exists parties that aspouse t capitalist, socialist, populist and communist ideologies.

This has given them leverage agains tight IMF tactics when seeking alternative funding and they are now positioned as the region in Africa to experienced long term sustained growth. It is doable and is being done. Simply screaming at the IMF, the UN and the US aint gonna help Ivory coast much.

cap28:
Have you not been paying attention?  Gbagbo HAS BEEN IMPLEMENTING IMF STRUCTURAL ADJUSTMENT POLICIES SINCE HE HAS BEEN IN OFFICE - he has been following the neo liberal economic policies of france the IMF, the EU and the US - these policies involve cutting of public expenditure, currency devaluation, privatisation of public industries and subsequent sale to foreign businesses at rock  bottom prices - all these things Gbagbo has done - now correct me if im wrong but if you cut public spending doesnt that equate to job losses, underfunded schools, substandard healthcare, rise in food prices and overall INCREASE IN THE COST OF LIVING??

We can keep playing this cat and mouse game on what agenda's I support. I have listed them for you before. You are stuck on the elements of "SAP programmes

Please enumerate your alternatives. Oh sorry you already did the history lesson 101 on 1980 and 1990 Technocrat alternate plans which are highly irrelevant for the present times?

superboi:
morpheus24
Today marks exactly 50 years since patrice Lumuba was killed. Then some people with similar Ideology with you would have though it was conspiracist yarns when people said he was killed By The CIA and The Belgians. But today those two parties have admitted their complicity in the matter of Lumumba death. Nobody is calling Gbagbo a saint but sit for a moment and think, if Gbagbo Goverment had given france access to what Quattara gave them access to at the time he was president do you think they would have allowed a armed group run against him in an election? If Gbagbo was a bad guy he would just have called out a result from Abidjan!!!! opps! I forgot over 1/2 of the electoral commission was Quattara men.

The picture above shows how Africans are bound by the impremalist. A word you hate but truly exsist

Stop staring up emotional sentimentality by drawing our attentions to pictures of bound up policital activists. Its a deceptive tactic aimed at swaying the viewers or the readers viewpoint to concentrate and sympathize with your agenda (which is of course to continue to aspouse to this idea of the Imperialist political and economic subjucation of Africa post the colonial era) .
It might be prudent on your part to put that picture in context of the economic and political climate of the times.  The real lesson to be taken out of the immediate tragic events of the post independence era is that we need to establish transparent political avenues in discourse and erring grieviances without resorting to barbaric and medievel ethnically driven ways of quieting opposition voices as is prevalent in African politics. Again your propaganda  might work on other simple minded folk but not on me, SORRY!.

Like I told Cap28 in the beginnings of our little spat, I continue to encounter supposed intellectuals who continue to perpetuate this view point mostly based on inflammatory emotionally charged statements, backroom dealings, marriage allliances' and a naustalgia of past atrocities. Yet when I ask the simple question of what they feel needs to be done, continued, discontinued, proposed, argued e.t.c  as to the solution to issues, they fall short of a simple few empty generalized statements and continue to give me history lessons on subject matters I can easily Wiki to get a brief sense of.

Living in the past is detrimental to human or societal progress and simply being a part of the problem instead of part of the solution is not a game I wish to endulge in.

I am and will continue to be for certain agendas I view as progressive to African societies and will argue those points basedon their merits anytime anywhere. I am not for or aginst any Imperial powers nor am I a PROPANGADIST.

Now back to the discourse: Since yo oppose Quattare based on your assertion that he is an imperialist puppet , what policies has Gbagbo since being in office implemented that has changed the economic landscape of his country in terms of facilitating the general economic climate i.e infrastructure, government policies in IV and improving the lives of his citizenry that requires your support or does he require the control of resources as his only bargaining cheap.

If you don't support him then are you jsut blowing steam up our a.z.z.e.s for the sake of it. What is your point that I didn't get the first time around?


Please answer?
Now lets

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7544822#msg7544822 date=1295210197]The keyword here is "fail"! We are talking about the 'too big to fail" banks, they are the ones that got handouts. Yes, I believe the banks should have been left alone to sort out their own mess. The word "fail" is used manipulatively to shift comfort zones and get buy-in from the populace. Left alone to sort out their own mess they would never have come close to the dreaded terminal end they so eloquently forecasted.

These banks have spent years managing acquisitions and mergers of other global corporations and industrial giants and they make huge profit doing so. . . . .you don't think if the decision came to acquisitions and mergers within their own ranks to consolidate capital and minimize risks of "failing" they would not take the rescue course?[/quote]Isn't this contradictory to the "regulatory" role of government. On the one had the system demands the government regulate banks to prevent malpractices and on the on the other hand it wants a hands off approach when it is deemed necessary that it "intervene" when there is a plausible possiblity that its collapse would likewise reap tremendous negative consequences for the economy and the public at large.

Of course the government is using historical data to calculate the unintended effects of numerous big bank faliures. Even with the FED and FDIC there would be a run on the banks, Serious dry up of capital markets, stock crashes and the likes.

Don't you tink Bank failures are more of a public policy concern as a result of how interconnected its activities are to a capitalist based economy. I mean its the major storage of capital in of itself.

@cap28

Great you've convinced me. I guess they are soley responsible for all our problems. Those bastards they got us hook, line and sinker. There's no way out now!

We still taking those handouts though post 1980, 1990, 2000 +. Still dependent on their technologies and expertise, still have insatiable appetites for their goods and services.

Eh here's a thought how come there's no visible vicarous discourse on what alternatives are necassary and feasible by the powers that be, the politicians or academia within countries in Africa cept a handfull excluding the likes of the IV and Nigeria. Gbagbo who is a so called academic lacks this insight does he now? THe best he can come up with is accusing his former colonialist of interference onthe one hande while still relying on the same Loans and handouts the french are heavily involved with. Are they that s.t.u.pi.d? Maybe they are as incompetent as the "imperialist" proclaim.

The annual World economic forum provides and opportunity for African states to examine and reassess their economies in terms of what is working for them and what is not, Not one African leader espoused any such notions of breaking its dependence on the World bank of IMF,no mentioned of alternative avenues, nothing close, Maybe they know something you don't ?

Who is brave enough to roll the dice and see where the chips fall eh?  Gbagbo?. Mugabe is the only one who is playing a dangerous hand right now and I am closely watching the outcome of his gamble

If you don't understand all the intrincacies of the system, how can you seek to transform it. Revolution is just substituting one silly system for another if the PEOPLE are not truly informed. Doesn't matter how many riots or pitch fork hanging sessions they perform. Evolution is the key.