₦airaland Forum

agaugust: both Hind and Terminator are ambulance convertible helos.

the report says 37% abused but did not differentiate that from R.ape, clean up south african military, its full of R.apists

okay, you as a person , which type have you been doing to those SANDF ladies ?

You should have known better, because you are living in an English speaking country. S.exual Abuse is completely different to s.exual molestation. Infact, in other countries they do not consider hugging and touching women indecently as s.exual abuse such incidents are merely treated as petty crime since the actual r.ape never happened.

agaugust: seems the african countries dont talk too much about their military medical corps as some of us cannot find much information on them by free internet searches. however, they are usually are a reflection of the civilian medical capabilities of eaach african country, but usually more disciplined and more efficient.

i guess Egypt, South Africa, Nigeria, Algeria should lead the pack and i believe they are able to handle any challenges expected from the battlefield casualty situations.

they all have very good military hospitals in the city, and mobile field hospitals for frontline.

nigerian military medical corps have special battle field ambulances versions of combat armoured vehicles and aircrafts, i guess includes

STEYR APC

COBRA APC

Mi-35 HIND HELICOPTERS

all for either custom built or modular ambulances and mobile hospitals. cobra and hind helicopters are modular platforms.

on the law/legal angle, the universal laws of war and military conduct both in peace time and conflict/engagement are all incoporated in the rule books of nigerian military and usualy enforced when need arises.

some nigerian soldiers have been sentenced by court martial ruling for offences ranging from personal misdemeanour to unprovoked assault in traffic, and nigerians were well infromed of the judgements.

i think south africa needs to do something about the new complaints from its female soldiers of R.ape by their male sodiers, 37 % of the women have been R.aped and justice is often not done.

south african research project weblink source :

http://www.davidpublishing.com/davidpublishing/Upfile/10/10/2012/2012101076778273.pdf


.

Your assertion about r.ape are yet to be confirmed, but for just argument sake be informed that r.ape remain a serious crime in South Africa. The South African government will leave no stone unturned if such a crime is reported irrespective of where is reported.

agaugust: UN building staff in abuja wounded in the t.errorist a.ttacks were flown to south africa for 'better' medical treatment but they died in south african 'better' hospitals.

nigerian doctors are better than south african doctors. south africa has more numbers of world class hospitals than nigeria, thats all. there are many american and european world class hospitals in nigeria where the oil workers get treatment....i have been to ChevronTexaco hospital in Gbagada Lagos far behind that Deeper Life Bible Church, world class equipment and all nigerian staff 100%.

there are several such world class hospitals in nigeria but mostly private owned, igbinedion hospital, st. nicholas hospital, eko hospital, lagoon/hygeia hospitals, etc

Chief here you are clearly lying, no where in the whole world would you find Nigerian trained doctors better than South African trained doctors unless such doctor is trained overseas. In the whole of Africa, SA medical schools are the best and even Nigerian doctors are put on trial before they can ever practice as medical doctors in SA. People across the world have more confidence in SA trained doctors than Nigerian trained doctors. Our medical schools are accredited by the US and UK. Remember Chris Barnard, the first doctor to ever perform heart transplant surgery in the planet earth was a SA trained doctor.

This is indeed heartbreaking, *sobbing*

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/06/06/world/africa/nigerian-refugees-accuse-army-of-excess-force.html

agaugust: total south african military personnel is about 60,000 http://www.nationmaster.com/country/sf-south-africa/mil-military

total nigeria has about 200,000 military personnel as at today. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigerian_Armed_Forces

nigeria too has many thousands of armed and military trained NSCDC 'gendarmes/carabinieri' type of forces.


show us source to prove that south africa has 1,000 drones/UAV, it is a big lie, i checked south african military official websites and DENEL too.

note that nigeria too has a large number of domestically built amebo drones, technical details not fully revealed to public.


nigerian military will completely over-crush, over-whelm, over-ride, over-shoot, over-power, and over-k.ill south african military when it comes to man to man infantry battle that is a must for war terrain like jungle or city warfare. nigerian army rules all africa in these two war terrain types

.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDaIKmWcUDE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hzUDDEO7-E

That source above about SA military strength tells green lies.

Here under is the credible university source;
http://www.iss.org.za/Pubs/ASR/4No6/Mortimer.html

patriot4: Your reservists are exactly like those of France. I know that you know verry little about the military, and that is why you say what you say.

You are lying, our reserve forces differ extensively from those of France. Our reserve forces have their own military facilities and many people think that they are just the same as full time force, since they also go to work everyday. Previously SA used to have commandos which was civilian based force patrolling around farms and enforcing security in conjunction with the police. These commandos used to wear same uniform and use same weapons as our Armies but could not deploy in peace keeping missions. Currently these commandos have been dissolved and consequently absorbed by the SANDF reserve forces.

Donian007: Msauwhateve, I understand your "IGNORANCE" on the Baga saga and we have dealth with it extensively in previous pages so this recycling is typical of an "ozogumous" and "gbadugamous" IGNORANT and MISCHIEVOUS mind. But first Baga's security was under MNJTF(Multinational Joint Task Force) comrising Chad, Niger, Cameroun and Nigeria, not Nigeria's JTF. Second, BH has claimed the attacks. Third, the satelite imagery determining the level of destruction in Baga presented by HRW has been faulted by Nigeria's own satelite. Fourth, thesame people of Baga today are now helping the military fish out the terrorists. Fifth, Nigeria's Senate has done an oversight probe and has cleared the MNJTF. Sixth, HRW and Amnesty International are hiding their faces in shame, they didnt even pat an eyelid over Aljazeera's false video by Yvonne Ndege who was thrown into cell by Niger's Forces. They all know better now. So Msauza, getover your IGNORANCE and LEARN.

This is not a recycling, it is relevant to this topic. Do military tribunal of the so called most powerful militaries in Africa prosecute those who are found to contravene rules of engagement? The answer is no, some do and others not, hence I pointed it to Baga Saga whose atrocities have been decreed as crime to humanity against Nigeria government by the human right watch.

agaugust: my opinion....egypt, nigeria, south africa, algeria, and morocco will have very good military medical corp...about equal or close to world class.

discipline, nigeria is good. several military court-martials have taken place recently for soldiers misdemeanor in domestic conflict zones at home.

I beg to differ. Discipline remains a problem in sub-Saharan military forces. Both SA and Nigerian forces engage in prostitution and excessive drinking while in peace keeping missions. Discipline remains a problem in both forces.

Drones are very lethal and any force that use this unconventional means has an advantage of victory, since they will exhaust and demoralise their enemy before the actual army can reinforce their offensive position to finish the job. It will be a lot easier because the enemy will be scattered everywhere and disorganised.

Donian007: You classified agaugust's points as lies just to draw a rivalry with SA. Anyways in real war your enemy won't waste a second to shoot down your drones as soon as it's detected, your ememy won't send a million soldiers into the forest without aircover and own drone surveillance so that thinking of yours is WARP!

Drones are occasionally shot at when flying at low altitude, but the reality is drones often fly at high altitude which makes them difficult to be seen with a naked eye. Drones are very small not even the size of a motor car which makes it difficult to be shot and often are heavily armed with AGMs.

patriot4: Actually, in Baga only 37 people died.
25 terrorists and 1 soldier and the rest were civilians. As i have said, stop brousing rag magazines, given that you don't know how to recognize them. How do you want us to punish soldiers when we have proof they performed well. Moreover it was a multinational force in place. The civilians who died mostly drowned when they were running away from the terrorists, the rest were hit by terrorists who were attacking the community.

Wrong! That information was retrieved directly from the human right watch and not from your so called rag magazine. The human right watch claimed that Nigeria lied, infact there were over 200 civilian lives which were sacrificed.

patriot4: Answer to your question:
Nigeria, South Africa, Egypt, Algeria, morocco, Sudan, Ethiopia, Tunisia, Senegal, Liberia, Ughanda, Kenya, Niger, Rwanda,Guinea.
All these countries have good military legal systems and good military medical systems. And these are the ones I know of, there are more.

Are you sure all the countries you mentioned above have excellent medical facilities? I doubt some of those countries do not have such facilities. In terms of the legal system, some of those countries commit many crimes to humanities and still scot free without facing military tribunals. It happened in Baga in Nigeria where many civilians were killed and tell me did you see or heard of any Nigerian general coming before the military tribunal? The answer is a big NO.

patriot4: I would take you more seriously if you didn't start all your comments with "lies". And some of my friends here in France are reservists, I know what they are. They recieve a verry short training, they are not at the same level with regular soldiers.

SA is not France and our military differ a lot. Our reservist force is mainly made up of former full time soldiers who either did not want to serve on full time forces or under unfortunate circumstances could not have their contracts renewed due to budget constraints. I voluntarily resigned to pursue other career and joined reservist forces. The government has built military facilities for these fine forces ever since apartheid and every corp has its own reserves.

Thiza: @ agaugust I repeat once more again show me Nigerian world class produced weapons and stop mentioning other countries. Since you do not have photos just mentioned them and countries of exports....NOT FOREIGN BROUGHT WEAPONS.....NIGERIAN PRODUCTS...DESIGN AND PRODUCED BY NIGERIA......PROUDLY NIGERIA

Nigeria has not yet reached that level of production of military weapons on a large scale. There was also one tabloid that I read as I was busy browsing the net that their military industry (DICON) is set to collapse due to the government failer to patronise their home made weapons and invest more in their so called DICON.

patriot4: Nigerian army 100000 soon to be 150000.
Nigerian navy: approximately 20000 soon to be increased.
Nigerian airforce: approximately 15000.
Nigerian DSS: I don't know
army trained Nigerian civil defence personnel: approximately 5000 (the total number of civil defence is 80000).

And comme on, reserve soldiers do not have the training nor the experience of the regular soldiers.

Msauza, I am yet to see the USA replace its soldiers by drones.

Lies!! Reservist force are mainly made-up of personnel who were full time force and under unfortunate circumstances could not have their contracts renewed and instead were transferred to the reserve force. Others join reservist forces on part time bases after having pursued other careers and in that category is me because I have also undergone military basic training through MSDS and deployed to the DRC as a full time uniformed member under MONUC. Consequently, I decided to leave shortly after my arrival to pursue other career by furthering my studies at university and join the reservist force on part-time bases. SA has many military bases of reservist forces of various corps who work full time and deployed on peace keeping missions.

On the issue of drones, yes drones can replace personnel just like machinery can replace manpower in any manufacturing industry. Computers are slowly but surely taking over our positions. A single drone can kill as many soldiers and do the job of more than ten soldiers combined. No wonder the world is against America for the use of this technology because they see it as only cheating.

agaugust: .

[size=16pt]game of numbers...soldiers swarm like bees....in man to man combat[/size]




I have 26 Gripen jets but only 8 pilots qualified to fly them, now show us how that firepower will work without full manpower.

I know you trying to knock off the military manpower issue because Nigerian has 200,000 armed forces personnel and south Africa 60,000. You are already afraid of Nigeria's more than 3 times bigger number of soldiers that will white-wash south Africa worse than seleka rebels

Run @msauza, run ! Nigerian army is near your door, hide your wife and children under the bed

.

Lies! Nigeria is slightly above 100 000 compared to 78 000 SA force + over 35 000 reservists. Why are you only putting more of your concentration on the Griffins? SA has considerable number of reservists pilots and What about the hawks as well? Computers have replaced manpower and not to mention computer controlled drones which can do the job far better than Griffins. Tell me how can 200 000 men deal with just over 1000 well armed drones? Probably the drones will start to beat the dog until the owner comes out.

all4naija: I still cannot come to term with this your view. There is strength in number as well as in fire-power. Modern warfare is totally above merely having the fire-power, it also requires the manpower to manoeuvre the highly advanced weaponry.

Any military force would rather invest more in firepower than anything else. Some smaller but rather wealthy Armies are ranked above bigger armies because of their better weaponry as compared to other bigger nations. That's a fact!!!

all4naija: Your analogy as a question is flawed, my friend. How many weapons of mass destruction does SA has as a nation?

That was a mere example. It does not help to have bigger numbers when your firepower is limited.

agaugust: nice russian jet SU-35 for china. the chinese are also building their own great J-20 stealth jet fighter locally too.

nigeria is very close to china now and they have been giving us good technology transfer for heavy weapons so that nigeria can build them in our own country and maintain them fully at home.

i pity south africans when they laugh at nigerian new weapons made in china. even america cannot defeat china today. weapons closely match, and getting closer in power and technology every new day.

korean war 1953, america faced china in combat, and ran away from chinese army, when yankee k.illed 100 chinese soldiers a fresh 200 will appear, america ran away from the battle front-line. i pity our south african friends who say numbers dont matter in war if they face mighty nigeria....go and ask america to tell you their chinese experience...urban/city warfare is a game of men/numbers.

china made J-20 stealth jet fighter the fear of china made weapons is the beginning of common sense

[img]http://4.bp..com/__rQoK9r_ycs/TSTgeKAd-ZI/AAAAAAAAAFM/Lvh00XYkSck/s1600/PLA%2BJ-20%2B%25E5%258C%25BF%25E8%25B9%25A4%25E6%2588%25B0%25E6%25A9%259F%2B%2528171%2529.jpg[/img]

Yes, numbers do not matter that much. What matters most is the efficiency and effectiveness of your weapons. Tell me, can million soldiers ever defeat thousands combatants using weapons of mass destruction (Hiroshima type bomb) drones and biological weaponry? Not in a million years.

Henry120: OFF TOPIC

China's order for SU-35's reach 100, instead of 24. Contracts signed at the paris air show.

The SU-35 has the ability to pick out/ detect air targets at a distance of 400 km and has a combat radius of 1,600km.

Source please.

agaugust: sorry you mis-fired, that was photo of delivery upon purchase. you no go school

Chartering planes is not always bad. Look what happens to countries that cannot charter flights and only end up stranded in other countries to an extent that others even fainted because of mental exhaustion, lol!!

Read the quote;
Last month a two soldiers fainted and gave up the ghost due to negligence, depression and uncertainty about our condition. Is our country that poor cannot charter a commercial flight to bring us back home or are we not needed back home?

"As I write, Nigerian Army Peace Keeping Center (NAPKC) in Jaji is full of troops of the four Battalions that underwent training to rotate the stranded 4 Battalions here in Sudan. Also the FOB in Abuja where troops normally spend the night before they are airlifted to Sudan is filled up with troops awaiting airlift to Sudan. Sudan as we all know is a very hostile and a desert country with hash weather that makes living very unbearable. It is unwise for Nigeria to leave us to stay extra days, weeks or months in Sudan after the expiration of our tour of duty.

"Other Contingents like Thailand, Sierra Leone, Bangladesh, Nepal, Egypt and South Africa have all rotated their troops with chartered planes with passenger seats of about 220. Nigerian Army is waiting for United Nations to organize their rotation for them with a plane carrying only 115 passengers, making us to rotate a battalion seven (7) times x 4

For further reading;
http://m.allafrica.com/stories/201206260968.html/

South Africa is still among the top 20 arms exporter in the world, this is according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI)

http://www.sipri.org/googlemaps/2013_of_at_top_20_exp_map.html

Thanks to the United States's refusal of arms to its close Middle East ally, Denel landed the first customer for its armed drone aircraft capable of American-style assassinations – Saudi Arabia.

The country has a dubious record on human rights and has been strongly condemned by the likes of Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch for executions and the detention of peaceful protesters. It came in for especially harsh criticism after reports that it deployed troops to Bahrain in 2011 to suppress a potential Arab Spring uprising in that country.

According to a respected specialist newsletter, Intelligence Online, engineers from the Denel Dynamics division are working with the Saudi military to create an armed version of the Seeker 400 drone, which Denel has marketed for surveillance use. Such drones, Intelligence Online says, would be capable of carrying Denel Dynamics' Mokopa or Impi missiles.

The Mokopa is an anti-tank missile touted for its accuracy and the Impi is intended as a multipurpose missile that can carry smaller anti-personnel payloads. The latter was developed specifically for use with lightweight aircraft.

The Seeker 400 has a range of up to 250km, putting many Middle Eastern hot spots within range of units based in Saudi Arabia. But the primary target for Seeker missions is expected to be strikes on suspected terrorists similar to the US's infamous strikes in Pakistan. The craft can be operated for more than 16 hours at a time, making it capable of "loiter and strike" missions.

Denel has been dropping hints of an armed version of the Seeker since 2010 but this week, after at first flatly refusing to comment on the report, it issued a statement saying it observes "strict confidentiality requirements imposed by our clients" unless directed otherwise.

Representatives of the Saudi Arabian embassy in Pretoria were not available to take questions.

Trouble
Denel has previously identified Saudi Arabia as one of the key markets it would like to expand into and has been looking for buyers for both its drone aircraft and missiles. It has been supplying unarmed, unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) or drones in the region for some time and has previously boasted about the growth in sales.

In late 2012, the Denel Dynamics division announced a joint venture with Tawazun Holdings, a holding company owned by the Abu Dhabi government, to manufacture missiles in that country – including the models apparently to be used with the Saudi drones. "Manufacturing will be central to Tawazun Dynamics's operations," Denel said at the time. "This will enable Denel Dynamics … to expand and strengthen another side to its business."

It is not known how many UAVs Saudi Arabia is in the market for, or what number of missiles it would keep on hand if the sale is concluded.

Denel ran into trouble with an attempted deal – which ultimately failed – to sell howitzers to Saudi Arabia, in which it paid a R100-million "commitment fee" to a Saudi agent in 1996. Although it emerged later, it was really the precursor to South Africa's arms-deal scandal, a prequel in which many of the characters and issues in that saga made their first appearances: Joe Modise, defence minister and corruption suspect; Yusuf Surtee, middleman and influence peddler; kickbacks dressed up as "commission"; and what appeared to be foot-dragging by law-enforcement agencies.

The story began in the mid-1990s, when Denel was trying to sell Saudi Arabia G5 and G6 artillery systems. From later court papers, it emerged that, in 1996, the Denel board agreed to pay about R100-million in "advance commission" to the Saudi agents in the hope of closing the deal. When the deal failed to materialise, the auditor general raised the alarm but investigations were put on the back burner in the hope that the Saudis would eventually buy.



Denel’s Seeker 400. (Reuters)

In February 2001, when Saudi-controlled Cell C was finally awarded South Africa's third cellphone licence, there were vain hopes this would clinch the weapons deal.

Voluntary association
In 2002, the Scorpions finally started to follow the money. They had evidence that some of the R100-million paid into a Swiss account might have flowed back into South Africa as kickbacks to officials at Denel and others, including Modise and the ANC. The Swiss released the bank data but, before it could be accessed, the Saudi agent launched a court challenge in South Africa, attempting to interdict the handing over of the information. Although the Scorpions initially resisted this, in 2005 the matter was removed from the court roll without explanation.

At present, the US is denying Saudi Arabia armed Predator drones, even though the US operates them from at least one base in Saudi Arabia. Instead, American suppliers have sold it versions of the Predator specifically engineered to make it very hard to mount weapons, in line with a policy to prevent the proliferation of remotely operated weapons.

The US is a signatory to the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR), a voluntary association of countries that seeks to restrict the use of long-range precision weapons. Originally it was aimed at ballistic missiles but recently was expanded to include UAVs, which could deliver weapons of mass destruction. South Africa is also a member of the MTCR.

The Seeker 400 falls short of MTCR guidelines, which restrict the use of vehicles with a payload capacity of 500kg and a range of 300km or more. The Denel craft has a maximum payload of 100kg and an intended control distance of 250km, although that can be extended with the use of additional ground stations or satellite communication.

Criticism of the American use of drone strikes has been mounting for years because of the high number of civilian casualties. Analysts have also expressed concern that the lack of risk to troops and pilots, combined with the relatively low cost of drone strikes, could make military commanders comfortable in launching missions that would otherwise not pass the planning stage. That could also contribute to an undesirable gung-ho attitude.

Diplomatic consequences
There are also concerns about the legal status of drone assassinations, which fall into a grey area between military engagement and covert operation. People with knowledge of South Africa's battle in Bangui in the Central African Republic (CAR) this week said real-time reconnaissance by drones could have saved lives but were dismissive about the use of armed drones both there and in conventional battles in general.

Meanwhile, the UN's new intervention brigade in the eastern Democratic Republic of Congo, tasked with taking on some of Central Africa's most notorious armed rebel groups, will have recourse to reconnaissance units, including drones – a first for the UN. South Africa will provide some troops for the force.  

The US embassy did not respond to questions about possible diplomatic consequences arising from the sale of an armed UAV to the Saudi government.

According to the UN register of trade in conventional arms, Saudi Arabia has been a relatively small importer of armoured vehicles from South Africa, although the United Arab Emirates and Jordan have bought larger quantities of them. Iraq and Yemen have also bought South African arms, according to a database maintained by the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute.

In 2011, the last full year for which figures are available, South Africa exported R9.16-billion in weapons, of which R228-million went to Saudi Arabia, permits issued by the National Conventional Arms Control Committee show.

That puts Saudi Arabia in the top 10 importers of South African weapons, although it is dwarfed by the sales of more than R2-billion each to Sweden and the US.

http://m.mg.co.za/index.php?view=article&urlid=2013-04-05-00-sa-firm-denel-in-saudi-drone-deal

Thanks to the United States's refusal of arms to its close Middle East ally, Denel landed the first customer for its armed drone aircraft capable of American-style assassinations – Saudi Arabia.

The country has a dubious record on human rights and has been strongly condemned by the likes of Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch for executions and the detention of peaceful protesters. It came in for especially harsh criticism after reports that it deployed troops to Bahrain in 2011 to suppress a potential Arab Spring uprising in that country.

According to a respected specialist newsletter, Intelligence Online, engineers from the Denel Dynamics division are working with the Saudi military to create an armed version of the Seeker 400 drone, which Denel has marketed for surveillance use. Such drones, Intelligence Online says, would be capable of carrying Denel Dynamics' Mokopa or Impi missiles.

The Mokopa is an anti-tank missile touted for its accuracy and the Impi is intended as a multipurpose missile that can carry smaller anti-personnel payloads. The latter was developed specifically for use with lightweight aircraft.

The Seeker 400 has a range of up to 250km, putting many Middle Eastern hot spots within range of units based in Saudi Arabia. But the primary target for Seeker missions is expected to be strikes on suspected terrorists similar to the US's infamous strikes in Pakistan. The craft can be operated for more than 16 hours at a time, making it capable of "loiter and strike" missions.

Denel has been dropping hints of an armed version of the Seeker since 2010 but this week, after at first flatly refusing to comment on the report, it issued a statement saying it observes "strict confidentiality requirements imposed by our clients" unless directed otherwise.

Representatives of the Saudi Arabian embassy in Pretoria were not available to take questions.

Trouble
Denel has previously identified Saudi Arabia as one of the key markets it would like to expand into and has been looking for buyers for both its drone aircraft and missiles. It has been supplying unarmed, unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) or drones in the region for some time and has previously boasted about the growth in sales.

In late 2012, the Denel Dynamics division announced a joint venture with Tawazun Holdings, a holding company owned by the Abu Dhabi government, to manufacture missiles in that country – including the models apparently to be used with the Saudi drones. "Manufacturing will be central to Tawazun Dynamics's operations," Denel said at the time. "This will enable Denel Dynamics … to expand and strengthen another side to its business."

It is not known how many UAVs Saudi Arabia is in the market for, or what number of missiles it would keep on hand if the sale is concluded.

Denel ran into trouble with an attempted deal – which ultimately failed – to sell howitzers to Saudi Arabia, in which it paid a R100-million "commitment fee" to a Saudi agent in 1996. Although it emerged later, it was really the precursor to South Africa's arms-deal scandal, a prequel in which many of the characters and issues in that saga made their first appearances: Joe Modise, defence minister and corruption suspect; Yusuf Surtee, middleman and influence peddler; kickbacks dressed up as "commission"; and what appeared to be foot-dragging by law-enforcement agencies.

The story began in the mid-1990s, when Denel was trying to sell Saudi Arabia G5 and G6 artillery systems. From later court papers, it emerged that, in 1996, the Denel board agreed to pay about R100-million in "advance commission" to the Saudi agents in the hope of closing the deal. When the deal failed to materialise, the auditor general raised the alarm but investigations were put on the back burner in the hope that the Saudis would eventually buy.



Denel’s Seeker 400. (Reuters)

In February 2001, when Saudi-controlled Cell C was finally awarded South Africa's third cellphone licence, there were vain hopes this would clinch the weapons deal.

Voluntary association
In 2002, the Scorpions finally started to follow the money. They had evidence that some of the R100-million paid into a Swiss account might have flowed back into South Africa as kickbacks to officials at Denel and others, including Modise and the ANC. The Swiss released the bank data but, before it could be accessed, the Saudi agent launched a court challenge in South Africa, attempting to interdict the handing over of the information. Although the Scorpions initially resisted this, in 2005 the matter was removed from the court roll without explanation.

At present, the US is denying Saudi Arabia armed Predator drones, even though the US operates them from at least one base in Saudi Arabia. Instead, American suppliers have sold it versions of the Predator specifically engineered to make it very hard to mount weapons, in line with a policy to prevent the proliferation of remotely operated weapons.

The US is a signatory to the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR), a voluntary association of countries that seeks to restrict the use of long-range precision weapons. Originally it was aimed at ballistic missiles but recently was expanded to include UAVs, which could deliver weapons of mass destruction. South Africa is also a member of the MTCR.

The Seeker 400 falls short of MTCR guidelines, which restrict the use of vehicles with a payload capacity of 500kg and a range of 300km or more. The Denel craft has a maximum payload of 100kg and an intended control distance of 250km, although that can be extended with the use of additional ground stations or satellite communication.

Criticism of the American use of drone strikes has been mounting for years because of the high number of civilian casualties. Analysts have also expressed concern that the lack of risk to troops and pilots, combined with the relatively low cost of drone strikes, could make military commanders comfortable in launching missions that would otherwise not pass the planning stage. That could also contribute to an undesirable gung-ho attitude.

Diplomatic consequences
There are also concerns about the legal status of drone assassinations, which fall into a grey area between military engagement and covert operation. People with knowledge of South Africa's battle in Bangui in the Central African Republic (CAR) this week said real-time reconnaissance by drones could have saved lives but were dismissive about the use of armed drones both there and in conventional battles in general.

Meanwhile, the UN's new intervention brigade in the eastern Democratic Republic of Congo, tasked with taking on some of Central Africa's most notorious armed rebel groups, will have recourse to reconnaissance units, including drones – a first for the UN. South Africa will provide some troops for the force.  

The US embassy did not respond to questions about possible diplomatic consequences arising from the sale of an armed UAV to the Saudi government.

According to the UN register of trade in conventional arms, Saudi Arabia has been a relatively small importer of armoured vehicles from South Africa, although the United Arab Emirates and Jordan have bought larger quantities of them. Iraq and Yemen have also bought South African arms, according to a database maintained by the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute.

In 2011, the last full year for which figures are available, South Africa exported R9.16-billion in weapons, of which R228-million went to Saudi Arabia, permits issued by the National Conventional Arms Control Committee show.

That puts Saudi Arabia in the top 10 importers of South African weapons, although it is dwarfed by the sales of more than R2-billion each to Sweden and the US

Thanks to the United States's refusal of arms to its close Middle East ally, Denel landed the first customer for its armed drone aircraft capable of American-style assassinations – Saudi Arabia.

The country has a dubious record on human rights and has been strongly condemned by the likes of Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch for executions and the detention of peaceful protesters. It came in for especially harsh criticism after reports that it deployed troops to Bahrain in 2011 to suppress a potential Arab Spring uprising in that country.

According to a respected specialist newsletter, Intelligence Online, engineers from the Denel Dynamics division are working with the Saudi military to create an armed version of the Seeker 400 drone, which Denel has marketed for surveillance use. Such drones, Intelligence Online says, would be capable of carrying Denel Dynamics' Mokopa or Impi missiles.

The Mokopa is an anti-tank missile touted for its accuracy and the Impi is intended as a multipurpose missile that can carry smaller anti-personnel payloads. The latter was developed specifically for use with lightweight aircraft.

The Seeker 400 has a range of up to 250km, putting many Middle Eastern hot spots within range of units based in Saudi Arabia. But the primary target for Seeker missions is expected to be strikes on suspected terrorists similar to the US's infamous strikes in Pakistan. The craft can be operated for more than 16 hours at a time, making it capable of "loiter and strike" missions.

Denel has been dropping hints of an armed version of the Seeker since 2010 but this week, after at first flatly refusing to comment on the report, it issued a statement saying it observes "strict confidentiality requirements imposed by our clients" unless directed otherwise.

Representatives of the Saudi Arabian embassy in Pretoria were not available to take questions.

Trouble
Denel has previously identified Saudi Arabia as one of the key markets it would like to expand into and has been looking for buyers for both its drone aircraft and missiles. It has been supplying unarmed, unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) or drones in the region for some time and has previously boasted about the growth in sales.

In late 2012, the Denel Dynamics division announced a joint venture with Tawazun Holdings, a holding company owned by the Abu Dhabi government, to manufacture missiles in that country – including the models apparently to be used with the Saudi drones. "Manufacturing will be central to Tawazun Dynamics's operations," Denel said at the time. "This will enable Denel Dynamics … to expand and strengthen another side to its business."

It is not known how many UAVs Saudi Arabia is in the market for, or what number of missiles it would keep on hand if the sale is concluded.

Denel ran into trouble with an attempted deal – which ultimately failed – to sell howitzers to Saudi Arabia, in which it paid a R100-million "commitment fee" to a Saudi agent in 1996. Although it emerged later, it was really the precursor to South Africa's arms-deal scandal, a prequel in which many of the characters and issues in that saga made their first appearances: Joe Modise, defence minister and corruption suspect; Yusuf Surtee, middleman and influence peddler; kickbacks dressed up as "commission"; and what appeared to be foot-dragging by law-enforcement agencies.

The story began in the mid-1990s, when Denel was trying to sell Saudi Arabia G5 and G6 artillery systems. From later court papers, it emerged that, in 1996, the Denel board agreed to pay about R100-million in "advance commission" to the Saudi agents in the hope of closing the deal. When the deal failed to materialise, the auditor general raised the alarm but investigations were put on the back burner in the hope that the Saudis would eventually buy.



Denel’s Seeker 400. (Reuters)

In February 2001, when Saudi-controlled Cell C was finally awarded South Africa's third cellphone licence, there were vain hopes this would clinch the weapons deal.

Voluntary association
In 2002, the Scorpions finally started to follow the money. They had evidence that some of the R100-million paid into a Swiss account might have flowed back into South Africa as kickbacks to officials at Denel and others, including Modise and the ANC. The Swiss released the bank data but, before it could be accessed, the Saudi agent launched a court challenge in South Africa, attempting to interdict the handing over of the information. Although the Scorpions initially resisted this, in 2005 the matter was removed from the court roll without explanation.

At present, the US is denying Saudi Arabia armed Predator drones, even though the US operates them from at least one base in Saudi Arabia. Instead, American suppliers have sold it versions of the Predator specifically engineered to make it very hard to mount weapons, in line with a policy to prevent the proliferation of remotely operated weapons.

The US is a signatory to the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR), a voluntary association of countries that seeks to restrict the use of long-range precision weapons. Originally it was aimed at ballistic missiles but recently was expanded to include UAVs, which could deliver weapons of mass destruction. South Africa is also a member of the MTCR.

The Seeker 400 falls short of MTCR guidelines, which restrict the use of vehicles with a payload capacity of 500kg and a range of 300km or more. The Denel craft has a maximum payload of 100kg and an intended control distance of 250km, although that can be extended with the use of additional ground stations or satellite communication.

Criticism of the American use of drone strikes has been mounting for years because of the high number of civilian casualties. Analysts have also expressed concern that the lack of risk to troops and pilots, combined with the relatively low cost of drone strikes, could make military commanders comfortable in launching missions that would otherwise not pass the planning stage. That could also contribute to an undesirable gung-ho attitude.

Diplomatic consequences
There are also concerns about the legal status of drone assassinations, which fall into a grey area between military engagement and covert operation. People with knowledge of South Africa's battle in Bangui in the Central African Republic (CAR) this week said real-time reconnaissance by drones could have saved lives but were dismissive about the use of armed drones both there and in conventional battles in general.

Meanwhile, the UN's new intervention brigade in the eastern Democratic Republic of Congo, tasked with taking on some of Central Africa's most notorious armed rebel groups, will have recourse to reconnaissance units, including drones – a first for the UN. South Africa will provide some troops for the force.  

The US embassy did not respond to questions about possible diplomatic consequences arising from the sale of an armed UAV to the Saudi government.

According to the UN register of trade in conventional arms, Saudi Arabia has been a relatively small importer of armoured vehicles from South Africa, although the United Arab Emirates and Jordan have bought larger quantities of them. Iraq and Yemen have also bought South African arms, according to a database maintained by the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute.

In 2011, the last full year for which figures are available, South Africa exported R9.16-billion in weapons, of which R228-million went to Saudi Arabia, permits issued by the National Conventional Arms Control Committee show.

That puts Saudi Arabia in the top 10 importers of South African weapons, although it is dwarfed by the sales of more than R2-billion each to Sweden and the US

[img]http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/rsa/images/olifant-image26.jpg [/img]

Augustine Again: this issue started when nigerians proved that south africa has NO satellite, they could not bear this truth, then they started to invent thread derailment and insults, including posting obituaries/death announcements of some of us nigerians on this forum.

the south african l.unatics started it, @CraigB, @Kwame nkira, both got banned for trying to k.ill this thread, then they opened a new user account and continued to post junk, lies, insults and thread derailment while @Andrewza, @fighter pilot, @zetdee were also supporting and cheering them to go on. blame the south africans for this situation

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Actually the derailment of the tread started when I pointed out that Nigeria did have any history of war against other countries other than peace keeping missions.

agaugust: today i read 5 pages in 5 minutes because i dont read @msauza, @craigB, @Kwame nkira etc.

the south africans lost on all points on this thread so they want to end it by k.illing the forum, they dont care, its not a south african forum. desperation shows south africa as the loser after 375 pages.

after today i will hardly reply @andrewza too. enough of his lies and f00lishness.

i want to post somethings about nigerian navy building 70% of that second stealth missile warship here in lagos after china builds one, first of such project in africa and major achievement for nigerian defense local industry getting this major technology advancement before any other african nation. there is something about that ship that is superior to every other warship in africa. i should post by weekend.

after that and a few more posts about nigerian military's modular weapons transform capability....i may go on long vacation and allow the south african psyco-mentals to play alone while waiting for their surgery date with the psychiatrist for full brain transplant.

There is absolutely no wrong that I have done. The only wrong I have done was to expose your secret that your country of birth has never fought against any country and thus have no such history. You were painting SA everywhere about its slums, poverty, xenophobic attacks and service delivery protests and now of late that it does not have a single satellite and we admitted and moved on. So, in your case is very difficult just to admit the truth and instead you are trying to defend what you can never hide from the public to see. Anyway that is typical of Nigerians, because you hate to hear the truth, why?

agaugust: satellites can see a bicycle parked at the door step of a small house on your street. stop turning science upside down because your country has none.

please stop posting lies and out dated information about satellites, they are more advanced than you think, and countries like nigeria have more than one to cover the earth a same time. many modern satellites see through clouds and through darkness of night. stop talking about a technology south africa does not have

http://www.toledoblade.com/image/2011/11/29/300x_b1cCM_z/Poverty-Line.jpg

Satellites cannot zoom up to much finer details, such as between dense forest. Satellites are dependent on weather conditions, during rainy days their camera see almost nothing. When there is air pollution satellite cameras become useless. That's why drones are now preferred for surveillance and reconnaissance over your much praised satellites

Your satellites failed to locate the position of Boko Haram until the US offered to deploy their drones. Thanks to modern technology of the US.

How does it feel like if I pass this important information that my ancestors wherever they are laid have once defeated the mighty Britain empire. Something which the whole Nigeria in general cannot boast about. The Zulus without any foreign help managed to wipe out heavily armed British army and recorded in their name the most famous victory ever achieved by the black nation.

agaugust: sit down in johannesburg and use south african UAV drone to take photos of an american airport in new york city the same way nigeria did.

Bwahahahahaha!!! Useless satellite. You must instead donate those satellites to your department of tourism.

agaugust: [img]http://4.bp..com/-4nqYNkaJuwI/Td_M5K0KK5I/AAAAAAAAHKE/XjRvSRnGSVk/s400/Royal%2BWest%2BAfrican%2BFrontier%2BForce.jpg[/img]


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Nigeria as a nation born in 1914 fought wars with super powers Germany 1914 and Japan 1942




Nigeria was existing as a country since 1914, before world war I and world war II. Nigerian army fought war against Germany in world war I and against Japan in world war II.

list of famous nigerian army battles with Germany world war I, where we got honours for bravery and victory.

Kamina
Duala
Garua
Banyo
Cameroons, 1914–1916
Behobeho
Nyangao
East Africa 1916–18
Burma 1942-1945

Nigeria also defeated Japan in Burma when the British army failed, Nigeria replaced them and saved Great Britain from disgrace.

Nigeria has fought war against other countries twice, it fought against two world super powers and never lost a battle, never retreated, estimated about 100,000 nigerian army troops fought both wars against Germany and Japan

you see now that all you south africans tell lies about nigeria ? you dont know nigeria beyond your laptops

weblink sources :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_West_African_Frontier_Force
http://www.motherlandnigeria.com/history.html
http://www.obitoftheday.com/post/36808227730/isaacfadoyebo


[img]http://beegeagle.files./2011/09/chindits.jpg[/img]


https://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_me8xd404hC1qcw9y0o1_500.jpg

i may not reply many south african posts again, my facts always defeats your false claims, i almost always have sources to prove, but you alsmost always have no sources to prove your claims.

i am getting tired of wasting my time arguing with these liar f.raudster dishonest south africans on this forum. i may be planning my gradual exit or a long vacation from nairaland

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Lier! Lier! Lier! Lier!

Nigeria has never fought any country one on one, THAT'S A FACT!!!

1.Almost all the world fought with Germany in the world war. Unlike SA who challenged Germany one on one and took over Namibia as a trophy.

2.West African force made of Ghana, Nigeria, Sierra Leone, etc which was used as war slaves by the British empire was not the so called Nigerian Army. Thus, Nigeria is not an exception, Ghana also deserve to be honoured as well as others.

FACT!! Nigeria has never fought against any country other than civil wars, peace keeping missions and where possible used as mercenaries by the greater British Empire.