₦airaland Forum

Shepherd00:
Chia! What can be so hard in just quoting and responding to my post separately from others? hmm?

No, it's not about reading, it's about where to quote in other to respond. You sir, are impossible.

In other words, 'Let everything reproduce according to its kind is false? . You run around graping straws everywhere even when they slip through your hands, you fight to hold unto them.

From Animals to birds, to fish, to man let everything reproduce according to it's kind. Pls how does homosexuality fit into this.

Shepherd00 please stop this below par reasoning, so you dont know that procreation is a means to an end, and isnt really the end itself, hmmm

Shepherd00:
Is there a reason why God instructed that Noah took in each specie of animals two pairs? Pls tell me why. Were they also gay ones amongst them?

Shepherd00? Shepherd00? Shepherd00? How many times did I call you? Please tell me this is a joke question

Shepherd00:
Yes, i'd ask the name of the homosexual and the passage of the Bible it is recorded that a homosexual built a Church for the Israelites. Who was he and how do I verify it?

In the way you are behaving and doing now, you do not qualify to know. You might find out from someone else, but at least I wont be divulging that info to you

Shepherd00:
Empty words MuttleyLaff. empty words.

Time is a snitch, time will tell if empty words or not

Shepherd00:
I will ask you questions Muttley, you cannot help for explain to me what you affirm.

And, how is their percentage my problem? Do you know how many Nazarites were it Israel? God used the few. So, if He approves of homosexuals, it will be mentioned, at least once.

Do you always have to argue, just for arguing sake, hmm? So you now want to compare a Nazarine with same sex attraction minority couples hmm? Abeggy leave and free me jor

Shepherd00:
Do you remember Rehab? She was a prostitute, she was mentioned, despite God pronouncing that no Israelite shd be a prostitute. She was not only mentioned, she became a Matriarch. Do you remember Ruth? She was a Moabitess, The Lord commanded that His people shd not marry her tribe, A Jew married her any way and She become an Ancestor of the Lord.

¹⁶ The LORD said to Moses,
¹⁷ “Say to Aaron: ‘For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God.
¹⁸ No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed;
¹⁹ no man with a crippled foot or hand,
²⁰ or who is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles.
²¹ No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the offerings made to the LORD by fire. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God.
²² He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food;
²³ yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary.
I am the LORD, who makes them holy.
- Leviticus 21:16-23

Are you at all familiar with the above Leviticus 21:16-23 scripture? I am just asking ni ooo and just tried, bringing it, to your remembrance

Shepherd00:
MuttleyLaff, why does homosexuality always follow with negative pronouncements everytime it is referenced in the Bible?

Shepherd00, this is a Bible 101 question, and funnily enough the answer to the question I already and/or have previously answered in my post on this thread

Shepherd00:
Like who and who were prohibited? They must not be priests or prophets to be used of God remember? Cyrus was a Gentle, not a Jew, but God used him.

The Father of Jeroboam who sculpted stones for the Temple of Solomon was not a Jew, he was from Tyre, but God used him. Balaam was a Soothsayer from Syria, not a Jew, but God used him. So I go on?

Look above, you'll see who and who were prohibited

Shepherd00:
Why was homosexuality always mentioned in the negative? As in these passages;
C.E.V (US Version) 1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Don't you know that evil people won't have a share in the blessings of God's kingdom?

Don't fool yourselves! No one who is immoral or worships idols or is unfaithful in marriage or is a pervert or ~~~behaves like a homosexual~~~ will share in God's kingdom.

They (the sodomites) called out to Lot and asked, “Where are the men who came to visit you tonight? Bring them out to us so we can have sex with them!” Lot went outside to them, shut the door behind him, and said, “I urge you, my brothers, ~~~don’t do such a wicked thing.”~~~

Jude 1:7 So also Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighboring towns, since they indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in a way similar to these angels, are now displayed as an example by suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

. 1 Kings 14:24 And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.

1 Kings 15:12 And he took away the sodomites out of the land, and removed all the idols that his fathers had made.

C.E.V. Judges 19:22-23 They were having a good time, when some worthless men of that town surrounded the house and started banging on the door and shouting,~~~ “A man came to your house tonight. Send him out, so we can have sex with him!”~~~ The old man went outside and said, “My friends, please ~~~don't commit such a horrible crime ~~~~against a man who is a guest in my house.

C.E.V.Judges 20:12-13
The tribes of Israel sent messengers to every town and village in Benjamin. And wherever the messengers went, they said, “How could those worthless men in Gibeah ~~~do such a disgusting thing?~~~ We can't allow such a terrible crime to go unpunished in Israel!~~~~ Hand the men over to us, and we will put them to [death].” But the people of Benjamin refused to listen to the other Israelites.

The first 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 scripture, as I've already said in my lengthy 3-part long post, has nothing to do with homosexual

Now with or about the rest of the other scriptures you've put up there, if upon what I've so far written in that my lengthy 3-part long post, you still cant see why the negativity, then, I think your problem is bigger than me to be of any assistance for you. You will need Holy Spirit intervention and top up.

Shepherd00:
MuttleyLaff why does the Act of Homosexuality in the Bible always accompanies death?

As much as I love this question, I still doubt your sincerety.

You are asking this question because you have no idea of the context of Leviticus 18 and Leviticus 20 since you're only concerned with just by itself the Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13 content

The kind of act of Homosexuality in the Bible that always accompanies death is the sort that as I passingly mentioned in my lengthy 3-part long post revolves around ritual sex performed during fertility god worship. This was done, under the make believe that divine blessings is obtained from indulging in such ritualistic sex. Male temple prostitutes made their services available for willing patrons or participants. Even those who weren't naturally gay, at times indulge in these sex orgies.

Textual context cannot be divorced entirely from biblical context Shepherd00, the evidence is there, that idolatry and with fertility gods, lust, temple sex, temple prostitution and promiscuous sex are the subject matter of Leviticus 18 and Leviticus 20 chapters, that feature Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13. Idolatry and with fertility gods, lust, temple sex, temple prostitution and promiscuous sex matter, that incidentally were dealt with in that Romans 1 chapter are the themes of those scripture

"No Israelite, whether man or woman, may become a temple prostitute."
- Deuteronomy 23:17

"There were even male shrine prostitutes in the land;
the people engaged in all the detestable practices of the nations the LORD had driven out before the Israelites."
- 1 Kings 14:24

When you look at scriptures, like Deuteronomy 23:17 and 1 Kings 14:24 above, you'll discover that all these illusions and false idea or beliefs were happening in the area before the Israelites arrived to inherit the land. The pagans believed they obtain divine blessing by indulging in ritualstic sex at the temple, this practice and mind thinking is what God was against. The thought and the act also, is what God found detestable. It not only was promiscious, there is cheating, betrayal, unfaithfulness, adultery, fornication etcetera going on. The only way God can stop this practice and indicate the severity, is by punishment by death. I hope this made matters clearer.

By the way and in fairness, even heterosexual acts are mentioned in the negative, just as certain homosexual acts are, and are levelled with appropiate punishments ranging up to stoning by death Shepherd00

Shepherd00:
Pls, let's concentrate on these verses. Pls tell me.

I have done already. Look up

Shepherd00:
You kept screaming that I was intimidated by you, now you complain of me asking you questions. Pls answer me.

I never screamed, so please stop being petty, and I am not complaining that you ask me questions, rather I typed something in the line of: "Please stop asking me unreasonable questions, especially when in the sight of facts"

Shepherd00:
I only need to know why everytime the Act was mentioned what follows was a sentence of death. If God approves of it why was it held against?

I have already given you a high level overview response above to this request nau Shepherd00.

Shepherd00:
The hell with the stupid attention. If you want to give me attention, then direct my post to me, stop being childish.

I made that comment, because I thought you wanted to beat me up for mentioning your moniker ni

Shepherd00:
Now to know I'm not shaking by you, why not be a man and do what men do?

Hmm, you try.

Shepherd00:
There's no way I'd be able to quote and respond to what you cramped together up there.

Didnt expect you to respond, just find a quiet place, to carefully and thoughtfully read the stuff, was what I advised you.

Shepherd00:
The Leviticus' you quoted is laughable MuttleyLaff.

I was looking to see where any of those other abominations backed death as a sentence, but only Homosexuality did.

Try again man. Hahahahahahaha.

Never mind, it isnt the first time whoosh over your head it went or happened

Shepherd00:
MuttleyLaff I can spot you peeping. Haven't you seen my post?

Bodi nobi wood, abeggy, carry una Mister peeping tom, vigilante, Nairaland neighbourhood watch wahala go. You think say, I dont listen to my body, erh? Make I no sleep, hmm? I saw your post alright, but left it replied to, unfinished because I went to sleep. I actually was fast asleep whilst still appearing present on the thread

bloodofthelamb:
Thanks for the compliment!

It is always nice to receive a compliment and it is very inexpensive to give one.

What is with our self styled cheerleader mutual friend openmine, making it his point of duty, to turn up every time and be patting you on the back, literally for each and every comment you make on this thread, hmm?

bloodofthelamb:
muttleyLaff, I do not agree with you that God sees nothing wrong in homosexuality (Men having canal knowledge of themselves, thereby defiling their body which is the temple of God). Men having a sexual relationship with their fellow men is not God's original intent/will.

bloodofthelamb, you dont have to agree with me that God sees nothing wrong in homosexuality, as in, men having canal knowledge of themselves, thereby defiling their body which is the temple of God, as, we can agree to disagree and shake hands over it

bloodofthelamb:
Homosexuality entered the world through sin.

Out of curiosity, how, when and where did homosexuality enter the world through sin?

bloodofthelamb:
Homosexuality defeats God's purpose and will. The will of God is that a man(male) will leave his parents and cleave unto his wife(female) and both of them will become one.

Infertiles of all manner of sort, too defeats God's purpose and will, but God has no hang ups over them now bloodofthelamb

bloodofthelamb:
The will of God is that a man(male) will leave his parents and cleave unto his wife(female) and both of them will become one.

So? Is it only one road that leads to the market ni?

bloodofthelamb:
Some people might be born with homosexual ten

You didnt finish this section off, but I guess the truncated last word (i.e. ten) was going to be "tendency", right?

You are correct, some people have the tendency to have homosexual behaviour because partly due to epigenetics, are born from the womb that way, others just adopt to be gay, like for financial reason or whatnot, case in point, will be our own and home grown, Denrele, Bobrisky etcetera

bloodofthelamb, did you at all managed to read the true life story incident I shared earlier on this thread, hmm? Never mind, I'll repeat it here so that you'll get a bit of perspective on that my "some... due to epigenetics, are born from the womb that way" comment. The person, in this true life story incident, is a grown man now and is enjoying a lovingly same sex attraction relationship, supported by his mum, dad, sisters and brothers, I mean supported by the entire family, dog and all in short, but here is the most interesting part of the story and my favourite part of the story, his mum fondly recalls that, when the man was three years old, he passingly, you know like innocent kids do, that very one bright early morning day, said to her: "Mommy, when I grow up, I want to marry daddy" How does one explain, a three year old boy coming out and saying at that age, that when he grows up, he wants to marry Daddy and not Mummy, hmm bloodofthelamb? It comes from the pit of hell, right, I second-guess, you'll say hmm abi?

bloodofthelamb, I know you highly respect and hold in the utmost regard Pastor John MacArthur. Well guess what, Pastor John MacArthur, accepts and agrees with me that the context of Leviticus 18 and Leviticus 20, when talking about the Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13 contents, has nothing to do with homosexuals per se, had nothing to do with acts going on between consensual adult in homosexuality, or homosexuals/lesbians and/or same sex attraction and union(s), especially one that is in, a kind, trusting, caring, loving, helpful, faithful, honest, not harmful and committed life long until death do them part relationships. He in fact, admits and concedes that, they are all what I said, it is and they are, in that my lengthy 3-part long post bloodofthelamb. I am sorry, bloodofthelamb, for being the one telling you this also, but Pastor John MacArthur, on record, actually too, admits that the context of 1 Corinthians 6:9 was temple prostitution and had nothing to do with homosexual acts per se.

Along the way bloodofthelamb, have you caught up with the latest news that happened earlier this week erh? That the pope, is pushing to have part of the word(s) in Matthew 6:9-13 Lord's Prayer in the Bible changed?

So too, Pastor John MacArthur changed his perspective on the context of 1 Corinthians 6:9 as temple prostitution matter, as well as, Leviticus 18 and Leviticus 20, when talking about the Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13 content subject so much that he is now saying them verses are talking about idolatry and not homosexuality. Go investigate the issue, check whether or not Pastor John MacArthur said this. in order to verify the facts. I dont do rumors nor share questionable information. Go fact check, go research everything I wrote, in that my lengthy 3-part long post, in order to verify the facts.

bloodofthelamb:
Network is really bad here, I will modify this post later because this not all I have to say. Pls bare with for quoting twice.

I noticed the ending part of your post, appeared truncated, but still got the full gist of what you were trying to say. Notice I mentioned something about your unfinished post. That is Ibadan network for you.
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openmine:
Like i said its unimportant...and am the least bothered!

Why bring it up in the first place, if you really arent bothered

openmine:
You obviously look like one who has none.Another meaning for a rhetorical dude is "i have run out of steam"

You would say this, wouldnt you

openmine:
At least am a learner and a good one...i cant say the same for you!

Not that it has served you any good

openmine:
If you knew so much, why is it taking you forever to provide a simple proof to corroborate your hilarious claims
If you cant answer a question and instead ask another question, it means you have virtually nothing to offer!

You are a troll.

openmine:

....who walk not after the flesh but the spirit...i guess you forgot that part
Secondly, the scripture you put up does not say that God approves of their acts...he has not condemned the man but that doesn't mean he approves or supports their acts!
So are you saying that once there is no condemnation, a person can continue to indulge in sin?

What act are you on about, what pato gangan, in the act is giving you grief, hmm? I've asked you many times and different ways over but you are unable to explain what specifically, is wrong, evil or bad in the act

openmine:
That scripture says nothing about God approving of homosexual acts!
Please where did it state that God approves of homos?

If you say so then fair dos, my friend

openmine:
Yeah back and forth...you do so in order to mask your deficiencies

Kk

openmine:
And do i look like am going to change my stance?
The joke is on you to prove that God supports homosexuals!
If Romans 8:1-2 is your patiently awaited proof that God supports and approves of homosexuals then i was right all along that your submissions were nothing but a joke and a futile and preposterous attempt to prove ridiculously that God supports homos!

Look at the title of this thread and check out the meaning of first word starting the title or subject heading openmine. My submission has done just about that, so please, just already, suck it up and deal with it. OK?

openmine:
Read!
You have no scripture to back your homosexuality claims!

Oh please, stop the strawman mining my Ogbeni friend

openmine:
Ohh please stop these your evasive tactics...its not only stale but also disappointing!
If you have the scriptures, show it and not this regurgitated path that you have audaciously resorted to!
Chai

You really are serious with this your straw man mining business shenanigan, erh?

solite3:
save yourself all these unnecessary banter and do justice to my question

You really think this is a circus, right, hmm. That there is harmless fun going on, isnt it. SMH.

solite3:
Show me where God support homosexuality in the bible.

If you really and sincerely had read all my posts so far on this thread, and you thoughtfully paid attention when reading, you would have spotted where

solite3:
Note: No rhetoric

Dont bother, give it a rest please.

I wanted you to explain what's the context of the Leviticus chapter 20 and how Leviticus 20:13 fits in with the greater theme of Leviticus 20 itself but for you to sincerely, truthfully and honestly explain it is a big big problem.

solite3:
Demonising homosexual acts? I m not the one judging homosexuality, it is the word of God.

You mean your imagined word of God

solite3:
You call me a liar because, you reject the truth of God's word.

Look at pot trying to call snow black

solite3:
You call homosexuality a loving act, the loving acts the brings the wrath of God.

As loving as a heterosexual act

solite3:
You have turn this to a personal attacks.

Personal attack on falsehood, yes

solite3:
Back to The question muttylaff show me from the bible where God support homosexuality?

Not that it will make a difference, even when I already had, if only you paid attention.

solite3:
The evil of homosexuality because God's word say so

Leviticus 18:22
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Romans 1:27
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

You didnt see the memo that Leviticus 18:22 and Romans 1:27, is not and never about your figmemt of imagination evil of homosexuality

solite3:
A perverse person will go to any length to defend perversity.

That is exactly what you are doing

solite3:
Still waiting for muttylaff to bring scriptures instead of long epistles

Extraordinary lies require extraodinary long epistles

Shepherd00:
MuttleyLaff, pls stop mentioning my moniker all over your posts if you'd not direct your responses to me. Enough of this joke Biko.

Oya coman beat me now for mentioning your moniker, your copyrighted moniker abi? Maybe I should stop giving you attention

openmine:


Whatever your reason for the name calling is unimportant!

Chief, nobody is name calling you ooo. There hasnt been anything insulting or demeaning in the sweet and endearing way I've addressed you

openmine:
I know how your likes do during an argument esp when you have run out of bullets!

I have gunpowder and loads of ammo ready and more than enough for the Battle of Armageddon

openmine:
bro no need for the questions....

You must be a learner. Discoveries are made by questioning answers, and advances are made by you answering questions. If I am really bro to you, you would kindly and willing have answered questions as and when asked you

openmine:
just provide scriptures showing that God accepts, welcomes,allows and permits homosexuality!

"¹So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus
²And because you belong to him, the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death."
- Romans 8:1-2

The above scripture mention, is not a first time appearance on this thread

openmine:
That's all I ask from you!
All these back and forth won't change my stance!

You've just with "... back and forth... " taken me down memory lane and reliving Cameo frontman, Larry Blackmon singing "Back And Forth". It reminded me of when that "Gbẹdu" (i.e. music) de enter my body.

openmine:
I won't reply your questions until you are able to show or provide scriptures to back up your analogy!

Do I look like I care?. My life doesnt depend on you answering or not answering.

openmine:
No need for the evasive and rhetorical stance to cover up the fact that you can't come up with a single scripture to fulfill ur analogy about homosexuality!

What analogy am I fulfilling?

openmine:
Just provide scriptures or be silent and allow your other supporters provide scriptures to assist you in proving that God permits homosexuality!

Lokatew. I guarantee you that if I am to provide you with scriptures, your eyes will still not clear, so why should I bother, what benefit are the ones already provided, hmm. Abeggy, comot for road jor, make better pesin enter o jaare. Shey, facts dey lie ni? Denying the truth doesn't change facts kẹ.

openmine:

Bro I don't care what what you call me and I have read and even perused your long post and I have seen no single scripture that you have used to buttress your points!

The only thing you succeeded in doing is trying in vain and fruitlessly to dispute clear enough scriptures!

Yet you haven't provided any....if indeed you had scriptures, you would have quickly provided it an initio and saved us the burden of this back and forth!
But unfortunately, not one scripture was used to prove that God permits homosexuality!

Ohh yes I need scriptures because if you were using these aimless grammars or scripture less long post,I would not have graced this thread!

But to think you were confident about proving scriptures only for you to end up trying to dispute that of others shows you have little or no scripture to offer!

Your latest and hilarious usage of manipulation and evasion to garner sentiments from the lgbt group is nothing but the last kicks of a dying hoarse

openmine, I haven't called you anything, except for using endearing form of addressing for someone in a friendly way.

1/ Have you noticed that you haven't denied what I've said about Leviticus 20:13 and her sister Leviticus verse.?
2/ Have you noticed that you haven't refuted that Leviticus 20:13, her sister Leviticus verse and other NT verses had nothing to do with consensual adults in faithful, caring, loving until death do them apart same sex relationships?
3/ Have you noticed that you couldn't articulate what bugs you in homosexuality acts?
4/ Have you noticed you could not say, in clear and uncertain terms what beef you have with homosexuals and/or homosexuality acts?
5/Have you noticed you are unable to say why consensual adults in faithful, loving, caring, kind hearted same sex relationships is evil, bad and wrong?
6/ Have you noticed that you have been unable to say that what I have written about changing words from their original meaning and the culture of saying things the Bible, didnt say, didnt mean and never say is not true, hmm?

All you've done is so selective reading, burying your head in the sand and doing a perfect sheer living in denial.

Keep on laughing erh, because that's what you are, a joke, you are a joke and before you say it, thats not been insulting, it's just a honest observation.

openmine:
MuttleyLaff
You made an assertion that God loves homosexuals!
The first thing you were supposed to do is make your submissions and your proofs so that it gets easier to comprehend!
You are even supposed to counter our scriptures with superior scriptures, instead you kept using your own logic and at times, sentiments to pathetically and fruitlessly prove your assertions!

I have done my part by providing scriptures... at least you won't accuse me of that!
However, I can't say the same about you!
If you have the scriptures, bros,state it clearly!
This whole grama and lately,manipulative path taken by you won't fly!
Either you have scriptures or you don't have it!
We are not here for e-fight but to learn and also make corrections!

Ogbeni, stop this charade, the scriptures you provided, I have to some degree exposed the interpretation as a sham and fraudulent. What you believe in has no legs to stand on

You cannot deny that the context of each and every one of the scriptures you put forward and up, have nothing to do with consensual adults in a faithful, caring, loving, kind hearted same sex relationships.

It is a fact and truth that those verses originally are talking of ritual sex performed during fertility god worship. This was done under the make believe that divine blessings is obtained from indulging in such ritualistic sex. Male temple prostitutes made their services available for willing patrons or participants. Even those who weren't naturally gay, at times indulge in these sex orgies. There are more to tell, but these bit of information seem for now, for all its worth adequate.

openmine:
Bros your latest post is to be quite honest unnecessary!
Whatever bugs me about homosexuality is the case here!

I need the scriptures that specifically states that God supports and allows homosexual acts from you!

The intentions of homosexuality whether good or bad is inconsequential!

Just show me where God permits homosexuality!
Thank You!

It is quite necessary, as it is an enquiry

The title of the thread started with the word "deconstructing". I have given enough scriptures and explanation doing just that and enough for you and anyone to be provoke to the point of cross-checking like the Bereans, whether or not, what I've submitted and advanced is true or not.

Please don't be expecting me to Bob the Builder you. Go over that my very long 3-section lengthy post very carefully, you'll find where I said God didn't mind or Jesus wasn't bothered about people in same sex relationships

You don't need scriptures, what you need is a change of heart. You need a paradigm shift. You need to change how you see homosexuality. Do those, then thank me later, not before then.

openmine:
Please where are the scriptures?
If you have them,provide them here for all to see!
Not twists or evasion!
Your constant one line repetitions does not in any way stop you from proving that God supports homosexuals!


Curse?
If you are saying God supports such acts,you are also saying he loves such acts too!
Be reminded that its only what you love that you permit!

So bro I don't like stories or long grama!
Just prove me wrong by showing me scriptures where God permits,allows and loves homosexual acts!

The joke is on you!

Explain to me, what particularly is the act that bugs you, what act gangan have you got beef with and why specifically do you have been with it or why it bugs you?

openmine:
Wrong bro!
What is wrong is wrong no matter how you paint it!
A goat will always be a goat!
A dog will always bark like a dog!
An eagle will always soar like an eagle no matter how you want to make it look like a chicken!

Whatever manipulation or sentiments you try to implore will never take away the fact that,based on scriptures, such acts no matter the intentions will never and can never be right!

You cannot steal and still justify the reason why you stole!
You can't have sex with your neighbours wife simply because the husband does sexually satisfy her!

But you know what?

I will gladly allow you offer scriptures and corresponding ones that prove that God permits or supports "homosexual acts that is in a faithful caring, trusting, loving relationship"!!

I await your rebuttal with scriptures!

I have provided enough scriptures and explained in my post how what you believe in are deliberate lies and falsehoods
There is nothing wrong anywhere and God hasn't, never and didn't say anything is wrong with gays.

openmine:

The shame is directly pointed at you because while I have proven just like most of the participants, scripturally that God never supports or permits homosexuals, you are still trying to get evasive,manipulative and insulting....and to make matters worse, you are still yet to provide scriptures to prove your submissions!

Like I said earlier, prove your assertions with scriptures or be silent and stop spread lies about our father and God!

Am still trying to wonder how hard it is to back you claims with scriptures!

Shame on you for cursing, what God has not cursed.

Are you trying to deny that Leviticus 20:13 and her sister Leviticus verse, along with others in NT have nothing to do with consensual adults in faithful, loving etcetera same sex relationships huh?

openmine:

Am not twisting your words....or do you want me to make it easier for you to comprehend your own submissions?
Were you not the one who said God doesnt see anything wrong with homosexuals?

Does that not imply according to you,that God permits and allows such acts?

So where did I twist your very words?

Rather its you that has an issue trying to buttress your points with scriptures and using long posts to cover up your obvious lack of scriptures to back your claims!

You are still being evasive and trying so hard to manipulate me into answering your own questions based on your earlier submissions!
What you are doing is clearly being rhetorical!

I also can't point anything out of your submissions because you are yet to provide scriptures to prove your assertions!

Its only when I get your own scriptures proof that God permits or allows homosexuals,that I will make my points known to you!

I have exposed your lies and misinterpreted verses you clobber homosexuals with. You ignore context but put content on head like a shrimp, strutting your hollier than thou self, believing that homosexuals are human beings with mental disorder etcetera. Shame on you.

solite3:
how did I judge someone else?
Show me where I condem homosexuals?
Show me where God support homosexuality?
At bold read John 3:16
God love sinners what did he do for them?
If you love a sick person what do you do?
Take them to the hospital or turn a blind eye to the sickness?

Unfortunately for you and your ilks the one who takes the sick man to the hospital didnt show love.


Face the fact your point has been that homosexuality is not sin it is not a matter of showing love, you only use that to garner sentiment.

1 John 1:10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

You point has been that God is a liar while you are the true one.

Also that because God hates and judges sin then he does not have love.

You judge by demonising faithful, trusting, caring, homosexual acts in a loving relationship.

You are the liar, not God, lying about everything including lying against me, saying what the Bible hasn't said, and saying what I too haven't said. You will answer to God for all these and for your hating.

What evil is there in homosexual acts that is in a faithful caring, trusting, loving relationship between two consenting adults openmine huh?

openmine:
Bro what what trouble do you think we have with you?
Am confused....Is it the fact that you cant provide scriptures to back your claims or is it that hard to find?
I took my time to go through your rebuttals,and not one gave any evidence or proved that your submissions are right ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURES!
At the risk of sounding like a broken record,bro MuttleyLaff you said you had stone wall proof from the bible to substantiate your claims about homosexuality!
You even went further by stating (though erroneously or intentionally) that God PERMITS or if i may be literal,he loves such acts as he would love a believer do God's work!
Now as preposterous as this may sound from a believer,i patiently welcomed a submission hoping i would see something i haven't seen from the scriptures...instead,i see a brother trying in vain to rewrite or twist straightforward and explicit scriptures that prove once again that our lord almighty is against such shameful acts!

Like i have said for the umpteenth time,please provide scriptures to prove God LOVES homosexual acts....Thats the only play you have right now! No twists or being rhetorical or plenty words that go no where!

Like someone rightly said,just hit the nail on the head!

However if you keep insisting on this evasive and rhetorical repetitions,then i will conclude you have nothing to say about your submissions!

If I am really bro to you, then please stop twisting my words, stop misrepresenting and stop misquoting me. Stop saying things I have never said, stop putting words in my mouth. I never said anyone has a trouble or problem with me but said what Shepherd00 problem is, which it looks like you share with him.

Let me make all this easy for you, as I am a fair, generous and accommodating person hmm? Why don't you state what my submissions are and state how according to scripture and to you, I am wrong.

Is God, not love, is God not in where love abides hmm openmine, if yes, then, what is your problem erh, why are you demonising this kind of love, huh? Why are you cursing, what God has not cursed?

Ranchhoddas:
Misinterpreting by whom? The Bible writers or your interlocutors?

Have you heard the latest news hmm? That the Pope, is pushing, that part of the Lord's Prayer, in the Bible, be changed?

Answering your curiosity, of course, by Bible writers/translators because of ideology, politics etcetera and interlocutors on this thread, due to what they've been taught, what they've learnt, and learned without doing their own personal study or research into the word.

solite3:
this thread is not about lying but homosexuality.

You said homosexuality is not a sin
I have not said lying is not a sin.

What you try to achieve is something like this,

Is murder a sin? Have you ever lied? If yes, why do you condemn murder since you also tell lies. Are you not a pharisee then?

A pharisee is someone who justify other sins while condemning other sins.

I have not justified any sin but you muttylaff try to justify homosexuality by using ad hominem whereas the bible clearly condemn it.

Show me where God support homosexuality in the bible?
Why do you think God gave the law? Is it not to convict sinners but when you condemn the law does it not make you a sinner? How will sinners be saved if the law is ignored?
If you call yourself a Christian but you condemn or try to change the law my friend you are not saved, you dont know God.
Jesus came with grace and truth. When you ignore the truth you cant have grace.

The point I was making, particularly with you solite3, is your hollier than thou stance, behaving as if you have no sin, behaving as if you don't lie, and so have the right and audacity to forget about the log beam in your eyes, to be pointing at a non founding speck in another person's eyes.

You like, I've previously told you or somebody else before are unrighteously judging somebody else.

Where there is love, you will see God's support there because God is love and love is all God is about.

Ranchhoddas:
No make me laugh abeg.

I don't want to preempt TV but I think what Muttleylaff is saying is that the verses that appear to condemn homosexuality are mistranslated/misunderstood. That is the summary of his posts.
I'll wait for TV's response before deciding if the thread should be reduced to an issue of Greek etymology.

But Muttleylaff reduce the length of your posts. Some things are just unnecessarily repetitive.
Hit the nail on the head.

You are the only one so far, who seems to be the voice of reason and I am a little surprised. You are the only who sees what I am and have been saying. You are the only one, who is using the head and not letting the heart becloud clear discernment and good judgement.

Aside etymology my dear friend, besides the lies in translation of certain words, there are the lies with misinterpreting content too. Of course, content is King, but it is context that is the King Maker. Context influences content Ranchhoddas.

Leviticus 20:13 and her sister other Leviticus verse have being lied about that it was about homosexual acts per se, when that is very far from the case and not true. All these to some degree, I have mentioned in my 3-part long post

Shepherd00:
I was on transit when I looked in. I couldn't believe you can be this unreasonable to join all the responses together. Pls point me to my posts let me react to them.

It is you who is being unreasonable here, if you weren't, you will admit and acknowledge each place where I know it pertains to you I appended your moniker as a mention, sometimes, by itself or alongside TV01

Shepherd00:
U know, I asked you before. Let me ask again. Do you believe God created people with homosexuality tendencies?

Yes or No.

If yes, Why didn't He created Adam and Eve, and then another man? or Eve and Adam, and another woman for the equation to balance.

Why did He created only 2 humans?

Since God didn't have a problem with it, How many people who were homosexuals were used by God?

How many Revivalists or Reformers/Evangelicals were, or are still homosexuals?

God used Gentles to carry out His mandated Agenda both in the old and in the New testament even when He chose the Nation of Israel to be His people, Why didn't he use any homosexuals but gave them over as reprobates?

If you join my posts to all other posts, I will stop responding to you and I will take you for a fraud.

The problem with you, openmine and possibly others, is you both and them, having trouble reading sentences more than 3-6 lines.

This is evidenced in that though I've already numerous times in the past answered your question in the affirmative, I also recently, as in my post today, advance the information that some people are born gay. I even further dropped in epigenetic(s)

Now you are asking me how many homosexuals God used even after I had volunteered and advance information that a homosexual built "church" for the Israelites to worship in. I bet you'll be asking for the Bible reference of this next.

I don't mind being Bob the Builder, but not ready to be Bob the Builder, to build you up in this matter. Anybody else but not you Shepherd00.

Please stop asking me these unreasonable questions, especially when facts shows, tells and confirm that homosexual are always less than 5% of the world's population at every and any other time.

Let me also inform you because you seem to have forgotten that until after the finished work on Calvary not everyone was allowed or permitted to work in service for God

openmine:
Yet again i took my time to go through your posts though long....
However,I believe the scriptures both old and new are explicit about the acts
It doesn't matter when the word homosexual was coined out
when a man is intimate sexually with a man as he would do to a woman,he is in the present engaging in homosexual acts!

Leviticus 20:13 The Message (MSG)
13 “If a man has sex with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is abhorrent. They must be put to death; they are responsible for their own deaths.

I could bring up different translation for this verse, however, what makes this scripture very clear and direct is the fact that such acts are unnatural and shameful before God!

Bro, you only countered their scriptures which to me wasn't good enough to justify the homosexual acts, however, its your responsibility as an advocate of homosexuality to show with scriptures where homosexuality is permitted by God!

God through paul said its unnatural and shameful,you think and believe otherwise...now show with scriptures that God permits the act of "men having sex with men"!

Did you, by any chance, read ALLthe sections where I mentioned Paul at all?

Before you start going on as many translations, you want to embark on, have you studied the historical and biblical context of Leviticus 20:13 at all, hmm? You are saying what the Bible never said, hasn't said and didn't say with how you are interpreting Leviticus 20:13 brother.

budaatum:
You're tripping if you think I'm wading through that!

You know the score now. Suit yourself

openmine:

Bro see to be honest i dont feel your back and forth which you are trying to do!
First,you created this thread TO PROVE WITH SCRIPTURES that God does not hate homosexual acts!
Now you made some assertions that you didn't prove with the scriptures...hence,i asked you where God explicitly allows homosexual acts and you throw the question back to me....does that make sense?
You said God does not hate homosexual acts and allows such...now use the scriptures to show where such is allowed by God!
Isn't that why you created the thread in the first place? smh

Please stop this shenanigan crafty games you are playing. You and your clique claim God hates homosexuals and detests the homosexuality acts isn't it? I have painstakingly enumerated how this lie has been perpetrated. I have presented facts, facts that can be verified and fact checked to see if what I type were incorrect.

Just this week, the Pope, has put forward that part of the Lord's prayer in the Bible, should be changed. Well that is yet another mistake and mistranslation he is trying to correct.

Bury your head in the sand, stick to your guns, and hold your foot in the ground, it's no concern to me, if the truth is too harsh for your eyes to see it. I'll soon be shaking off the dust of my slippers concerning you.

openmine:

Firstly,you made out too many words without even using scriptures to substantiate your claims!
For instance,You said God likes homosexual acts but you never provided scriptures to show where he does or where he allows such...rather you are trying to prove fruitlessly why the scriptures provided by others are invalid when in fact they are more than explicit for one to see no matter the analogy that you involve!
You said God loves homosexual acts right? Provide Scriptures please!
You said God has never had any objection to the homosexuality act (which i consider insult to the most high God who created a man and woman for a purpose) but let me allow you prove with scriptures!

For the sake of crying out loud, in light of the 3-section long lengthy reply I made, could you please provide when and where, in scriptures, God said He hates homosexuals or detests homosexual acts in per se.

Please also show, where God objected to it and I'll do same, showing you Jesus not minding pr objecting to it but actually praised the homosexual for his unmatching faith, and that is besides him, already building a "church" for the Israelites to worship in

openmine:
You made a rebuttal right?
and i replied the one that was in reply to bloodofthelamb which you didnt give out a scripture....maybe you should be the one with the visually impaired tag
Chill am replying every rebuttal one by one!

I didn't have to, knowing fully well that all his opinions are addressed in my subsequent posts that followed, which I repeatedly mentioned you in as a fya

openmine:

I took my time to go through your rebuttal of bloodofthelamb,and to tell you that am truely disappointed is an understatement!

First,its shocking to compare being left handed or right hand to being a homosexual.... the comparison doesn't even connect!

Both hands were made by God and he never at any point choose which hand we must specifically use to eat or take something or condemn or relegate any!

Well,I don't want to even delve into that because that will bring another endless argument about hand usage!

However,its amazing that of all the rebuttal to bloodofthelamb,you only used your own "opinions" and not scriptures.....you could have lifted at least three scriptures to buttress your argument!

This is not about 'homosexual per se'....let's call a spade a spade! homosexuality is homosexuality whether consensually or otherwise!

both are shameful in the sight of God and the scriptures are there to prove it!

Please return back to this rebuttal and show scriptures to substantiate your submissions!
Thank you!

I hope you are not visually impaired, hmm openmine?.

Some people sha, a three part reply, as he comes on here, saying not a single rebuttal. SMH.

This funny poster above me

Shepherd00:
This post is too long

I did warn you yesterday, it was going to be long, and I have apologised to you just now in my postscript above, for it being long.

I would advise you bookmark it, and read the three sections, carefully and thoughtfully during your break and in privacy, without any distractions

Extraodinary lies requires an extraordinary long reply, dont you agree.

Shepherd00:
That Chemistry is called 'The Holy Spirit'.

I agree. That's why we must be careful with Words.

My brother ultimately we want to have the correct scriptural interpretation and be led by the Holy spirit but this is not going to happen if "the jacket, shirt/blouse, trousers and shoes put on look too big on some of us" We are urged to beef up, grow in and into the Spirit. Fill up and out into jacket, shirt/blouse, trousers and shoes so they fit snuggly and perfectly.

Shepherd00:
I'm sorry for calling you Gay. I know you are not Gay.

Shepherd00, as a typical full bloodied Naija man that you are, I know you are not very good at saying sorry, but then, you’ve apologised for calling me gay, though you know I am not gay.

An apology is a lovely perfume, it can transform the clumsiest moment into a gracious gift. You apologising to me, doesn't mean you're wrong and somebody is right. It just means you value the peace of mind with yourself and God, more than your ego. I knew it was never your intention to hurt me or cause me pain, so I never was bothered nor took anything to heart

Have you ever noticed, that people would rather stop speaking to you, instead of apologising. The first to apologise is the bravest. The first to forgive is the strongest and the first to forget is the happiest

Sometimes being yourself or you, is not always going to be agreeable to someone else, so I too, I am sorry. I am sorry Shepherd00, for being Me and so apologise to you too brother

PS: Sorry Shepherd00 for the lengthy post up there, that I am seeing you now reading. As dem say, plenty information dey inside one kobo book

PART 3 CONTINUED FROM ABOVE. I HAD TO SPLIT INTO 3 PARTS, AS WAS TOLD POST IS TOO LONG

OK, TV01, Shepherd00 and maybe openmine as well, now, the $64,000 question is, stating clearly and in detail, leaving no room for confusion or doubt, what correctly, in Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13, is the committed abomination that was being done before God, hmm?
(i.e. what correctly and pato, in Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13, is the thing that was done, that God hates and/or detests?)

None of you guys, not even bigshot TV01, with all that his big chutzpah, ever answers those question(s)

TV01:
Question
2/ What has Romans 1, 1 Corinthians 6:9, 1 Timothy 1:10 got to do with the homosexuality in my purview, huh?
Answer
Your purview as I have noted above is an utterly bogus premise. I have stated why

There is nothing bogus in my purview, but what is bogus, is the deception and lies you learned and strongly come to believe.

How you've given in to the false appearance(s) from the genuine and the false impression different to the true meaning of the text and words in Romans 1:26-27, 1 Corinthians 6:9 and/or 1 Timothy 1:10. The truth about the text and words, in Romans 1:26-27, 1 Corinthians 6:9 and/or 1 Timothy 1:10 have being exchanged and traded for a lie(s) that so are misleading the saints.

When uninformed people read their English version bible(s), I mean read it, especially without knowing certain or specific things beforehand, like about truth(s) trade and exchanged in for lies, they then for some reason, think that, what they read is how the Bible has always and originally said it. They read verses that the church is and has been using to condemn gays when the Bible really hasnt condemned and doesn't condemn gays at all in any of those seven clobber verses

This thread will deconstruct the lies and shake the table that the discriminative myth of consensual adult homosexuality and unjust intolerance of consensual adult same sex union are standing on

I want to challenge people to fact check. With a presence of mind, reader(s) should investigate all I type, write or advance, in order to verify the facts, as I present them

As I've previously mentioned, the word "homosexuality" was not around in Biblical times and the word "homosexual" was invented in 1868

It is Karl-Maria Kertbeny, in Germany, who originally and/or previously used the word homosexual, when he coined and introduced it first, in a private letter written in 1868 to a friend, Karl Heinrich Ulrichs

Subsequently the first known appearance of the term homosexual in print appeared in an German pamphlet written by same Karl-Maria Kertbeny the following year in 1869

Another interesting to know, is that the original Greek word in the Bible (i.e. "arsenokoites'') that has now been adopted as meaning homosexual is actually a translation from the result of combining of two words "arsen" and "koites" which literally means "man and beds"

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 and 1 Timothy 1:8-11 are the only two times, in the Bible's entire history, that the word "arsenokoites" is used and seen

It would be exciting to know, why Paul, in 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10, when inventing this word "arsenokoites", where in his construct, he used man, in singular and then used beds, in plural. Never mind, I'll tell you why and keep you out of misery. It had to do with Paul, talking about and/or against infidelity, promiscuity, philandering, hopping from one bed to another bed, having multiple and/or casual sexual relationships, having affair(s), screwing around etcetera

TV01:
Question
3/ Where is in the Bible or where does God say SS unions are condemned, hmm?
Answer
God would not have to specifically condemn SS unions anymore than he would have had to (under the law) specifically condemn a bacon sandwich shop – i.e. if pork is forbidden, an enterprise based on pork products does not need to be expressly mentioned. Duh?

Man thinks he has given a witty response. SMH. At least from this your reply, there is nowhere in the Bible nor anywhere that God condemns same sex union

TV01:
Question
4/ Why specifically, are you on about, saying: "clear condemnation of the act and the pathway for repentance, forgiveness and washing from the same act that is clearly outlined in the scripture. Romans 1, 1 Corinthians 6:9, 1 Timothy 1:10"
Answer
Beautifully responded to in question 1 above.

"Ayama" loosely translated means "rubbish". Oga abeggy, comot for jor ojaare. Pitifully responded to and not beautifully, is more like it and what I would rather admit to. "Shebi o mọ iwe, shebi o kawe", loosely translated means "you know book now, you know how to read books now", then just keep on reading sha, and get ready to be snapped back to reality and the real world.

TV01:
Bonus responses
1/ Do you agree and accept that though content is king, context is the king-maker?
Dude, you are running a campaign – and most insidiously at that. Quit with the fake piety and scholarly apprehensions

ThothHermes, why is it that TV01 hates answering simple easy direct straightword questions, hmm? Is until you get on his case before he will answer this now, just like he dilly dallied the other time until you pulled him to attention, erh?

TV01:
2/ Please what is your understanding of how and why homosexuality, same sex attraction and same sex union is sin?
Disordered, dysfunctional, depraved’ Expressely condemned by scripture. If you haven’t got that by now, I can’t really help. Especially in the absence of a well exegeted rebuttal – see what I did there

I grinned too, except mine was actually a grin of disappointment at your feeble reply that's without aplomb, especially when in a demanding situation like this one

TV01:
3/ What specifically is the evil with consensual adults same sex couples, that are in a kind, trusting, caring, loving, faithful, no harm done to each other or any other person and committed life long, until death do them apart relationships?
As above. Also it pollutes the land

I actually literally laughed out loud at that part of your reply, that said: "it pollutes the land"

TV01:
3/ What specifically is the evil with consensual adults same sex couples, that are in a kind, trusting, caring, loving, faithful, no harm done to each other or any other person and committed life long, until death do them apart relationships?
The acts are forms or worship and a gateway for demonic activity Consent does not sanctify sin. Nor does word salad

How do you mean that:"The acts are forms or worship and a gateway for demonic activity"

TV01:
4/ Do you have biblical verses to shore up your response to #2 above? If you do, please share, so we both can self examine them together.
Done repeatedly. It's now down to you to offer a reasoned response to the scriptures provided and explicated.

I asked this comedian a question about context, biblical and historical context, that is, but he ignored the question and refused to address it. No problem, that is not going to stop anything. I have given 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10 a mention and commented on them, so lets now start on Romans 1 too now.

As we can see, that TV01, in order to more likely obfuscate, rather than enlighten, TV01 volunteers the whole of Romans 1, as evidence, knowing fully well that Romans 1 is a book with a total of 32 verses. What a very crafty person, TV01 is behaving that way, isnt he?

Anyway, that wouldnt stop us forging on with this thread, as judging by the context of Romans 1, the evidence is there, that idolatry and with fertility gods, lust, temple sex, temple prostitution and promiscuous sex are the subject matter of the chapter. Idolatry and with fertility gods, lust, temple sex, temple prostitution and promiscuous sex matter are dealt with in that Romans 1 chapter and it really is important, to note that, all of these concerns, would be equally as sinful, whether heterosexual or homosexual in nature.

Textual context cannot be divorced entirely from biblical context, so Paul with and/or in Romans 1 chapter, was in fact, talking of those going to the fertility temples of the day, to indulge in sex orgies and some engaging in ritual sex under the guise to get divine blessings and was not anywhere in that chapter criticizing consensual SS attraction and SS relationships adults or declaring them to be wrong or evil. This fact will be shocking for some, and be too much of a bitter pill, that they can not easily swallow, even if that does occurs, it will cause them indigestion like nothing they've ever had before.

By three methods we may learn wisdom, I've heard people say. First by reflection which is noblest, second, by imitation which is simplest, third by experience which is the bitterest, so for those objecting to and/or opposing the facts, I write it off for the naysayers as a life experience and getting education.

"No Israelite, whether man or woman, may become a temple prostitute."
- Deuteronomy 23:17

There were even male shrine prostitutes in the land;
the people engaged in all the detestable practices of the nations the LORD had driven out before the Israelites.
- 1 Kings 14:24

Committed, faithful, honest, lasting life time same sex relationships have been there from time immemorial TV01, Shepherd00, openmine, jesusjnr etcetera, and Paul wasnt in Romans 1, 1 Timothy 1:10 and 1 Corinthians 6:9 ranting about that at all, at all.

What Paul was ranting about in Romans 1, 1 Timothy 1:10 and 1 Corinthians 6:9 was the infidelity, promiscuity and the cult practice of having sex with patrons as a form of deity worship. This custom was rampant and happened in the Old Testament in the lands before the Israelites arrived too.

We all know Leviticus 20:13 is Leviticus 18:22 and vice versa, but not all, I mean the likes of TV01, Shepherd00, openmine, jesusjnr know or realise that, Paul actually re-echoed Leviticus 20:13 and Leviticus 18:22 with 1 Timothy 1:10 and 1 Corinthians 6:9 and know that the problem Paul was addressing with Romans 1, 1 Timothy 1:10 and 1 Corinthians 6:9 isnt and/or wasnt about same sex relationships with fidelity but it was something else entirely different to that, which has again reared its head with the Gentile

There is this strong common thread going through Leviticus 20:13, 1 Timothy 1:10 and 1 Corinthians 6:9 and it ties them together but it eludes the most astute. Peoples perception of this matter isnt what they think and learned it to be.

So what is happening and/or what happened in Romans 1:25-28?
Well, for your information TV01, Sheherd00, openmine, solite3 and others, Romans 1:18-32, especially verses 24, 26 & 27 is a rehash of Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13, like I've probably already mentioned, but with a twist

Paul, with Romans 1:18-32, especially verses 24, 26 & 27, is echoing what happened around when Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13 were given. He then added the twist (i.e. Romans 1:26b: ... for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature) which is, the women too, have joined to be participants in the ongoing "detestable customs practised". It essentially was like Deja Poo The feeling that Paul has "seen" and read this crap happen before way in the Canaan-Israelites days, but now in double force.

The remedy, the first step to realign, to shake off the lies, will be, for staters, to review 1 Timothy 1:10 and 1 Corinthians 6:9, and look into what "malakois" and "arsenokoites" really means. I strongly advise the likes of TV01, Shepherd00, openmine, jesusjnr etcetera to do just that, instead of opting to alternatively plastering their opinions and beliefs here, as opposed the truth and real meaning of those words.

The epiphany of what the "the detestable customs that were practiced" in Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13, 1 Timothy 1:10 and 1 Corinthians 6:9 were, will sooner or later occur, after the reviews.

It is an insufferable practice for God to bear and that's why God voiced His disapproval over the detestable custom being practised

It is the only ONE reason, that this sexual sin, that this particular sexual immorality, is condemned as committing abomination unto God
whilst other sexual sins or other sexual immoralities like, adultery in Leviticus 20:10, incest in Leviticus 20:11-14 or bestiality in Leviticus 20:15, escape the mention to be condemned as an abomination unto God or as one thing, God dislikes intensely

TV01, Shepherd00, openmine, jesusjnr etcetera, there are so many other places, in the bible about this satanic ritual, sex orgy and detestable custom being practised, a few case in points, like Deuteronomy 23:17 and 1 Kings 14:24, are mirror versions of Paul's 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and 1 Timothy 1:10, where God, said, He so much, disliked intensely, the practice.

To those, getting very well tuned in to this frequency, there is evidence of homosexual(s), during Jesus times, building "church" for the Israelites. There is evidence of homosexual(s), during Jesus time seeking Him. There is evidence of Jesus engaging with homosexual(s) and not for a single moment minded or be bothered about that. Where is the evidence of Jesus objecting to adult consensual same sex couples having a romantic faithful caring and loving relationship until death do them apart etcetera, hmm?

TV01:
5/ Do you have biblical verses to shore up your response to #3 above? If you do, please share, so we both can self examine them together.
Done repeatedly. It's now down to you to offer a reasoned response to the scriptures provided and explicated.
TV

[img]https://s1/images/Abomi.jpg[/img]

What you've repeatedly done is to continually make extraordinary lies, because unlike what you, TV01, Shepherd00, openmine, jesusjnr etcetera believe, God never said homosexuality and/or homosexuals per se, was or is an abomination. Shepherd00 had been regurgitating and parrotting this belief, almost all over this thread, living up to the saying, that when the cat is not about, the mouse takes it upon itself to have fun and a field day

People like TV01, Shepherd00, openmine, jesusjnr etcetera have being parrying, dodging, sidestepping questions and/or give asked questions, a wide berth. None of them seems able nor capable to respond. They each and all act, in an evasive ways, when explicitly and clearly, asked, easy, simple, sensible, straightforward and direct pointed questions, like about,
1/ Why did God say "homosexuality" is an abomination?
2/ What is the reason why God found allegely "homosexuality" detestable?
3/ What is detestable about adult consensual same sex couples having a romantic faithful caring and loving relationship until death do them apart etcetera?

All and each questions of the three above questions should have been given outright answers, which could be: respond with details, respond with yes, no or I dont know, but what do we see, read or get as responses? Nada, nothing or at worst just proof-texting and doing gra-gra upadan the forum like TV01 and Shepherd00 do. They dont know it is the same historical reason, background and circumstances why God in Leviticus 19:28, was against tatooing, but like in a classic and typical sheeple style and way, hook line and sinker, just believe that, tatooing per se, is a sin. SMH.

Posters like TV01, Shepherd00, openmine, jesusjnr etcetera like dropping words, like "perversion" and/or "abomination" to sound big, but asking them why and how "homosexuality" is wicked, is an abomination, is perversion, becomes inexplicably for them to do or answer

They fancifully just drop and use the word "abomination", like as if they're well informed to know the context of how the word originally was used, when in actual fact dont u,nderstand and know.

Well, this thread is already long as it is, so that is why, I have just ordinarily pasted and left the above screenshot there, just for TV01, Shepherd00, openmine, jesusjnr etcetera, to stare at and be scratching their heads at too. Anyone interested in wanting to know more on it, should just holler, because even if you know a thousand things, the right is, to ask the man who knows, the one thing you don't know about

There is a lot more in this tank, I still havent scratched the surface, I havent delved into this thing and matter properly at all, all because Shepherd00 finds long posts to be dizzying. Besides, the portal had already auto warned me that this post is too long, thus making me adjust and reduce it. Posters like Ranchhoddas, God bless him, for snapping at me with his interjecting caustic and irritable comments, that just humbles me. "Ni ile aiye, ka sha ma shey daada" loosely translated means "lets just be doing and saying good in this world we are living in" Though I still love you Ranchhoddas, I should be taking back that earlier given "oti sewọn" chilled cold bottle of orijin and a truckload of kolanuts.

My hands are tied for now to continue and go on. I will return whatever serve TV01, Shepherd00, openmine, etcetera brings and possibly might even up the ante a bit. You know maybe, go into the deep end, to increase what is at stake or widen the scope under discussion. So if you dont know how to swim or dont have a life-jacket, just stay on the thread, only be reading and not comment or contribute like sensible jesusjnr, solite3 and others like him do.

[img]https://s1/images/MuttWipesHandSmile.gif[/img]
Watch some people, like TV01 and Shepherd00, in particular, are just a glutton for punishment,
so look out for them, as they gung-ho come back, and get punished more for their gluttony
cc Goshen360, elated177, Image123, jesusjnr, luvmijeje, budaatum, Ranchhoddas, ThothHermes, VBCampaign, Michellekabod2, Baddiezz, Agrogbeide, TV01, Shepherd00, kkins25, fykes, EmperorHarry, Heathen777, Ubenedictus, FOLYKAZE, Paraltero, alBHAGDADI, Maestro21, shadeyinka, HappyPagan, ujnwachukwu, openmine, solite3

PART 2 CONTINUED FROM ABOVE. I HAD TO SPLIT INTO 3 PARTS, AS WAS TOLD POST IS TOO LONG

TV01:
Question
1/ What's in Romans 1, 1 Corinthians 6:9, 1 Timothy 1:10?
Answer
These verses clearly outline the grievously sinful nature of homosexual acts. Romans 1 specifically referring to the acts as against nature and a hallmark of judgement against a people, as they utterly rebel against the will of God and are subsequently “given-over”. 1 Corinthians 6:9 however, shows there is true hope in the gospel and with the Love of God, the grace of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit, those caught up in this sin can be freed and washed – as for any other sinful behaviour or inclination

I hope you can see why I patiently and painstakingly are trying to smoke out you out in to the open, hmm? I am trying to get a wrist hold of you, trying to get you pinned down so you dont escape, but you are doing a good work, still hiding and holding other bible verses back. Never mind, we can work with these three scriptures you've relunctantly volunteered, I mean, Romans 1, 1 Corinthians 6:9, 1 Timothy 1:10. The other four, you left out, which are Genesis 19, Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13 and Jude 6-7, I will deal with them, when and/or as soon as you decide to bring them up

What you dont know, is that, I not only mounted this dragon beast, rode and tamed it, but I also, slayed it too, then after killing it, I dissected it, to find out what the dragon beast's been feeding on, this is how I got to know, with the help of the Holy Spirit so much about this subject matter.

None of the Romans 1, 1 Corinthians 6:9, 1 Timothy 1:10 verses, as in, not anywhere in them, outlined your claimed openly and alleged grievously sinful nature of homosexual acts. It is a big fat lie TV01, that Romans 1 reference to acts as against nature and a hallmark of judgement against a people, as they utterly rebel against the will of God and are subsequently “given-over” had anything to do with faithful loving consensual SS attraction and SS relationships adults

I hope to gradually go on unremittingly with this exposé. I am not going to be forced or intimidated to be quick or to hurry. Mind all, it is when someone screams at me to hurry up, that I then slow down, to go over what I've already so far typed or written, so let it be known that I am not in a hurry to do this, a gentleman, afterall, is never in a hurry.

What I need is a rapt audience. I just want readers to pay complete attention to every ounce of this exposé and/or be completely involved in it all. Everything I type is facts only. They all can be verified and fact-checked

Now, before, tackling these TV01 et al Romans 1, 1 Corinthians 6:9, 1 Timothy 1:10 verses, let's just first, lay down some pertinent, "for your information(s)" (i.e. fyi)
1/ From time immemorial, same sex attraction and/or same sex relationship always make up, less than 5% of worldwide population, so has never being and wont ever be a threat to anything or anyone, just as infertiles of all sorts arent.
2/ God never said he hated homosexual(s) or homosexual acts per se, so please if you believed this, stop lying to yourself and stop deceiving others with your crass ignorance.
3/ If you are adamant, then show me in the Bible where God outrightly said he hates homosexuality, homosexual or homosexual acts per se and be prepared to clearly, cleanly and correctly defend it
4/ The words, homosexuality and homosexual are not in the original texts of the Bible
In fact, the words homosexuality and/or homosexual, actually are words that's barely 200 years old.
The word "homosexual" was invented in 1868, and the word "homosexuality" certainly was not around in Biblical times
Another fact, is that, the word "homosexual" was first printed in a German book in 1869, and then after placed in the German Bible in 1946 and later then in the English bible in 1950s.
5/ God has never had any objection to the homosexuality act of my purview
6/ It is glaring, except if in denial, what the meaning of Paul's "malakois" and "arsenokoites" used in 1 Timothy 1:10 and 1 Corinthians 6:9 translated to "homosexual" ( or homosexual acts in 1946 and 1950s are
7/ If you know, you know, that there is no sin grading. No sin, except for the one against the Holy Spirit, is bigger than any other sin. If you're sinful, you are a sinner. Period and that's all, even if the occassional lies, white lies and all too. So even, if same sex attraction were to a be a sin, thank God it isnt, then stop being like a lot of inexcusable people on this thread, looking and pointing at the speck, in a brother's eye, but failing to notice, the beam log in their own hollier than thou eye.
8/ Greed, covetousness, and lust are improper homosexual and heterosexual desires and/or faults that when acted upon not only leads to prostitution, adultery, fornication, lewdness, promiscuity etcetera but equally is at a detriment to, betrayal of or cheating on another or other person(s) whom love, faithfulness, commitment, honesty, lasting that's life-long and loyalty was professed to whilst in a relationship, that's same sex or otherwise
9/ There's a lot of things when you read in the Bible you have to know what you're reading about, know the context, the history of it and the customs of the land and so you know what these words, like in #6 etcetera originally means
10/ All the scriptures, that most Christians, whatnot or otherwise, the likes of TV01, elated177, jesusjnr, shepherd00, solite3, Goshen360, openmine, alBHAGDADI, VBCampaign, Ubenedictus, ujnwachukwu, Image123, Ranchhoddas, ThothHermes, kkins25 etcetera use to condemn consensual SS attraction and SS relationships adults, do not talk about consensual SS attraction and SS relationships adults at all.
11/ The word sodomite, historically and originally, was never and is not another word for consensual SS attraction and SS relationships adults (i.e. not gays or homosexual). The word sodomite, from the on set, as in the Bible, is a word originally meant for a male temple prostitute(s) and never the definition of consensual adults same sex couples, that are in a kind, trusting, caring, loving, faithful, no harm done to each other or any other person and committed life long, until death do them apart relationships (i.e. gays)
so be a good idea to understand the
12/ In Paul's day there were at least, 17 words in Greek that Paul could have used to talk about gays if he wanted to say gay is sin but instead of using any of those already existing 17 Greek words, Paul invented and coined a new Greek word, "arsenokoites", it is the word I have been mentioning up above. Now for the attention of my lovely two brothers TV01 and Shepherd00, Paul in Romans 1:18-32, especially verses 24 & 27 is echoing what happened around when the pronouncement Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13 were made and/or given
13/ Bearing in mind, that, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 and 1 Timothy 1:8-11 are the only two times, in the Bible's entire history, that the word "arsenokoites" is used and seen. Now TV01, Shepherd00, openmine and others, dont you think, it would be exciting to know, why Paul, in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 and 1 Timothy 1:8-11, when inventing this word "arsenokoites", that, in his construct, he used, man (i.e. arseno- or arsen-) as in, singular and then used beds, (i.e. koites), as in plural, hmm? Has the penny dropped yet, erh?
cc Goshen360, elated177, Image123, jesusjnr, luvmijeje, budaatum, Ranchhoddas, ThothHermes, VBCampaign, Michellekabod2, Baddiezz, Agrogbeide, TV01, Shepherd00, kkins25, fykes, EmperorHarry, Heathen777, Ubenedictus, FOLYKAZE, Paraltero, alBHAGDADI, Maestro21, shadeyinka, HappyPagan, ujnwachukwu, openmine, solite3

PART 1, WITH OTHER TWO PARTS FOLLOWING AFTER. I HAD TO SPLIT INTO 3 PARTS, AS WAS AUTO TOLD POST IS TOO LONG

Ranchhoddas:
Oga TV01.

Please humour us.
Edakun answer those four questions

Let's get this train moving.

Somebori please give this my brother a "oti sewọn" chilled cold bottle of orijin and a truckload of kolanuts. This is the kind of poster one needs as referee, good enough to be one and one who doesnt take sides. I tell you, and this thing is not going to be over until the referee blows the whistle

TV01:
Muttleylaff, you are a confirmed scoundrel and, at this point, I am finding it quite difficult to append the term “Christian” to your moniker. Your irreverent handling of the scriptures, chicanery and clunky, repetitive tone are immensely irritating to say the least.

Time is a snitch, as time will soon tell, who really is a bonafide and confirmed scoundrel between you and I. The people of Antioch had you in mind, when they made up the term Christian. It isnt going to be difficult to reveal how irreverent, dishonest and devious you needed to be, just so scriptures be misinterpreted and/or clobber biblical text verses, say things it never said, didnt say and doesnt say and/or never mean.

TV01:
Nevertheless, let me persist here. Firstly, your title; “Deconstructing The Lies & Myth of Consensual Adult Homosexuality/Same Sex Union” – this is in itself an absolute non-starter.

People with the least knowledge of a matter, know about bragging very well, and the arrogance usually is a cover up, its actually, insecurities playing dress up

I am not a boastful type like you are, so I'll let my the words in my posts do the speaking for me.

TV01:
“Consensual sin” remains sin. Dressing an unbeliever in priestly garb does not make them disciple - at best a costumed actor.

You typed that “consensual sin” remains sin, right? Of course, “consensual sin” remains sin,, if its according to the "gospel" of TV01

TV01:
Like many of the so-called ministers/ministries I suspect you follow.

If you didn't see me follow anyone with your own eyes, or hear it with your own ears, don't invent it with your small mind and share it with a big mouth!

TV01:
SS behaviour or acts are fundamentally dysfunctional. SS attraction is intrinsically disordered. That is a ruined foundation. Nothing can be built atop, despite your best efforts repeated ad nauseum.

Like I've said in my earlier post above, i mean the one with the true life story incident of the then three year old, I repeat, that Jesus, in Matthew 19:12a, stated emphatically and/or publicly, saying some are born that way from their mother's womb, as in from birth, same way, some are born from the womb, that way with same sex attraction. Of course, because of the imperfect world we live in, eunuch(s), just as same as with same sex attraction persons (i.e. SSA person), people that are infertiles, people born with one physical defect or the other etcetera, all are as a result of the fall from grace.

I am now re-sharing the true life story incident all over again, so that you'll get a bit of perspective from that my "some are born from the womb" comment. The person, in this true life story incident, is a grown man now and is enjoying a lovingly SSA relationship, supported by his mum, dad, sisters and brothers, I mean supported by the entire family, dog and all, in short, but here is the most interesting part of the story and my favourite part of it, his mum fondly recalls that, when he was three years old, he passingly, you know like innocent kids do, said her: "Mommy, when I grow up, I want to marry Daddy" How do you explain, a three year old boy wanting to marry Daddy and not Mummy, hmm? How do you explain being lefthanded, hmm TV01? It is an incontrovertible truth that God, who sees and who knows the end from the beginning, an Omnicompetent, all-knowing, all-wise, all-seeing God, knew about SS attraction and SS relationships, so by extension, SS attraction and SS relationships are not just part of God's creational intent but are inclusive. Through the wisdom and design of God, the God idea provides consensual SS attraction and SS relationships adults with a sense of belonging.

TV01, get a grip of yourself please, there isnt anything remotely dysfunctional about same sex behaviour or acts. Same sex attraction is not intrinsically disordered. If it were, tell us now, what is Michelangelo intrinsically disordered about, hmm? What is Leo Varadkar intrinsically disordered about hmm? It is just like somebody being lefthanded, it is different but it still is natural, just as we cant really explain off lefthandness, so we cant with same sex attraction, behaviour or acts, except for it being epigenetics, and as in, born that way

TV01:
Now, to your questions

Glory be to God. Thank you, thank you God. "Toba to asiko lati su, idi a la", loosely translated means, "when its time to shiit, yansh must give way" so let's put hand for chin, begin watch and read how you've answered the questions then

TV01:
- even as you failed to give a considered refutation to the scriptures I posted, merely “flipping” them back to me as evidenced by another observer/participant;

You dont seem to realise that, there is a reason why I "flipped" them back at you. Whenever you catch a thief, it's best the thief is held on to by the wrist, so to prevent any chasing of it breaking free and escape. I am setting you up and getting you into a chokehold, the evidence of this the same observer/participant will testify to

TV01:
And also noting that you referenced only one scripture – Matthew 19:12 - woefully taken out of context and further mis-applied like deodorant instead of air-freshener

The Matthew 19:12a scripture, referenced by me was never woefully taken out of context, nor was it, either as deodorant or air-freshener, mis-applied. Did Jesus, not in Matthew 19:12a, state emphatically and/or publicly, saying some are born that way, as eunuchs, from their mother's womb, as in from birth, erh? Same way, some are born from the womb with same sex attraction, hmm? Of course, because of the imperfect world we live in, eunuch, just as same as same sex attraction persons (i.e. SSA person), people that are infertiles, people born with one physical defect or the other etcetera, all are as a result of the fall from grace.

Like I have said in previous post(s), God, who sees and knows the end from the beginning, an Omnicompetent, all-knowing, all-wise, all-seeing God, knew about SS attraction and SS relationships, so by extension, SS attraction and SS relationships are not just part of God's creational intent but are inclusive.

Consensual adult SS attraction and SS relationships, by a God design are included, in the creational order.

Now, the reason, why most people cant accept that some people are naturally born to have same sex attraction (i.e. being gay) and this is alright, is because of them being misinformed that it is a sin to be a gay person, but that misconception will be correctly addressed here on this thread.

Let's get this straight and in perpestive, hmm. If you're an unrepentant rapist, you're in trouble. If you're an unrepentant arm robber, you're in trouble. If you're an unrepentant child molester, you're in trouble. If you're an unrepentant animal fairker, you're in trouble.

If you're an unrepentant "animashaun-gbogbo-adugbo" unfaithful homosexual/lesbian, it goes without saying, that you're in trouble
but if you are an adult, sexually attracted to a consenting adult of same gender and in a faithful, committed to each other, meaningful, honest, truthful, loving and lasting a lifetime relationship with same person until death do youse apart then you are alright and good to go because it at the end of the day, is not a matter of who you love, but is a matter and down to how you love. Love reigns supreme and is eternal, on top of that, it is instructive to know that, in Christ and end of this side of eternity, there is neither male nor female.
cc Goshen360, elated177, Image123, jesusjnr, luvmijeje, budaatum, Ranchhoddas, ThothHermes, VBCampaign, Michellekabod2, Baddiezz, Agrogbeide, TV01, Shepherd00, kkins25, fykes, EmperorHarry, Heathen777, Ubenedictus, FOLYKAZE, Paraltero, alBHAGDADI, Maestro21, shadeyinka, HappyPagan, ujnwachukwu, openmine, solite3

bloodofthelamb:
MuttleyLaff, I have followed this topic from the other thread down to this one you created and I am impressed within me to leave my blessed opinion on this issue.

Thank you so very much bloodofthelamb for sticking your head out on to the parapet. You are another of, one of my well respected posters here in Religion, because you are sensible and intelligent. You have not just more sense than common sense but you have sense wiseness too as well

bloodofthelamb, with all due respect, by your own admission, you are advancing opinion(s) on this issue, but the issue has nothing do to with "opinions" meanwhile I, on the other hand, I am gradually unravelling, the truth and presenting the issue, as it really is, with facts. I am about stating facts but others as well as you, are bent on arguing with me, without knowing the facts. This often happens when people dont take the Bible and Bible study seriously, when we are insisted upon, to read the Bible, read it properly and in context, so that we obey 2 Timothy 2:15 and always be able to "rightly divide the word of truth."

It is not like, as if, everything I type, can't be looked up in the Bible, if anyone wants to try prove me wrong. Do some research of your own, on everything you find me type on this thread, to find proof of what I am saying. Believers, should do heavy lifting too and dont be waiting, sitting and looking for other people to do work for them

I read it once that, if a crooked stick is before you, you need not explain how crooked it is. Lay a straight one down by the side of it, and the work is well done. Preach the truth, and error will stand abashed

bloodofthelamb:
Homosexuality like fornication (etc) is a sin

Homosexuality, per se is not a sin, Fornication, infidelity, betrayal of trust, cheating, emotional harm or trauma etcetera is a sin in a heterosexual relationship, just as it would be in a homosexual relationship

bloodofthelamb:
but how does God see those who are engage in the act?

God sees nothing untoward in consensual adult homosexuality, homosexuals/lesbians and/or same sex attraction and union(s), especially one that is in, a kind, trusting, caring, loving, helpful, faithful, honest, not harmful and committed life long until death do them part relationships

bloodofthelamb:
When the woman caught in adultery was brought before the great judge of the universe, he never condemned her, neither did he malign her. He simply gave her the gift of no condemnation.

Exactly my brother, but she needed not, in that sort of "set-up or frame-up" be condemned anyway bloodofthelamb

bloodofthelamb:
Homosexuality is a misdirected desire and passion. Condemning and judging them can no way make them repent from it, rather it will intensify it. Christ is the only one who can truly make them free from that misdirected passion and desire, and our job is to point them to Him and not to condemn and vilify them. Jesus has not send us into the world to condemn and judge them for their short comings, but to make them know that they can be free from their sins through Christ in them.

Why dont you speak for yourself that homosexuality is a misdirected desire and passion because it isnt your nature to get attracted to someone with same sex as you, hmm?

C'mon now bloodofthelamb, this is like you saying that being lefthanded is a misdirected desire and passion.
Having genuine homosexual behaviour, as in my earlier, stated clearly and in detail, context, respect and/or circumstances, is no more abnormal than being lefthanded is bloodofthelamb. It is not evil, it is not doing anybody harm and/or anyone, as a homosexual/lesbian, arent necessarily harming others with it

Being gay, is like, being left handed. Just as some people are left handed, so, some people aren't. Nobody really knows why, except for, it's because we live in an imperfect world. It is not a matter of right or wrong here bloodofthelamb. It is a matter of thats just the way things are, that's just the way they turned out and so it is that, there is nothing abnormal in two easy going, ordinary consenting adults, minding their own businesses enjoying a life long caring, faithful, committed, truthful, honest, loving each other lasting that's life-long and loyal same-sex relationship, that has no detriment to another person, no betrayal of another person, or no cheating on another person, and not harmful to an object or neighbour

Is it possible, that love can be extraordinary, that, there is love wonderful and passing the love of women? Of course, yes, for some, there is and it is biblical

bloodofthelamb:
Many believers today behaves like the Pharisees that brought that woman caught in adultery to Jesus, they think to themselves that they have the power to judge the homosexuals, while their own sins are back tracked

They are as bad as Pharisees. I see them as 21st century or modern age Pharisees. Have you noticed and seen how solite3 went AWOL and tight-lipped, after I ask him to tell me, solite3, when last did he lie and when does he think his next lie will be?

bloodofthelamb:
Jesus did not ask the Pharisees that brought the woman to him, if they have not fornicated before. Though there might be some of them who have not sinned (in terms of committing adultery) but certainly all of them have transgressed one way or another. MuttleyLaff, I am not judging you for your stand, but you are wrong with your stand.

Exactly but at the point bloodofthelamb, where you said, I am wrong on this stand, you sorely are mistaken and it is a right sorry heart wrenching shame for me to see you like this

bloodofthelamb, if homosexuality is an abomination, thank God it isnt homosexuality per se, that is an abomination, but then if it was or say for the sake of a bloodofthelamb argument it is, then isnt it, just as bad as being a liar and/or lying? If hypothetically it is that homosexuality is a sin and/or an abomination, then why are people behaving in unpleasant ways towards homosexual(s)? Why are homosexuals singled out to bear/take/suffer etcetera the brunt of discrimination, hatred, violence, fear of their lives etcetera, huh? Is it because believers think that they are more important than they really are, when compared with fellow human beings, who by no choice of theirs, except for epigenetics, have same sex attraction, similarly like having to be lefthanded, hmm?
cc openmine

Shepherd00:
Yes, and that is to be expected since both of us are Anti-homosexuality and bases our antagony on the same Scriptures.

He quotes the same Scriptures i quote, it'll be strange for us to have divergent views after doing so.

It seems we repeat ourselves becos we have the same views.

I know. I just wanted it shared, that I am aware of the chemistry between you both and with others

Shepherd00:
Sincerely, I secretly wish I am as good with words as TV01 is.

Words are potent weapons for all causes, good or bad. If the foot slips, one can always regain one's balance, but when the tongue slips, one can never recover one's own words.