₦airaland Forum

@lastpage
I must confess this is one great thread. It's as hilarious as it's informative.

lastpage: Can you relate with an earlier post l "copied" (with permission  ) from another J.W poster on his explanation on the "Use of blood" by Christians?
I find the explanation very rational, from a purely religious point of view but another Poster now threw spanners in the works by implying that "if it is in the course of a greater and common good, some religious obligations can be "bent" around, just like Christ "bent around" the issue of Sabbath Day, in the Bible.
What is your take on that?

Like you, one tries not to be too assertive in religious matters. I prefer to read, learn and, wherever really necessary, try to point out objective errors I find. On your question above, find here where I have done just that in the other thread.

I agree with what you say about trousers. Like most religions, the JW is a patriarchy. It is the Nigerian church elders who are men who tell the women it is wrong to wear trousers.

rabzy:
What is the mind of the lawmaker on this issue, The lawmaker has told us that Blood is sacred, he told our forefather Noah that he may eat flesh, but the blood was prohibited. Blood was equated with Life by the lawgiver and anyone violating it in ancient Israel was liable to death.
So if disobeying the law would incurs death, then do you think if it would be lawful to take it to possibly preserve life.
Saul's soldiers that were eating meat along with its blood because they were almost dieing of hunger and could not wait for the animals to be bled were not excused.
The real issue is that the Christian prohibition was to "abstain from blood" (Ac.15:20,29). It required a complete unqualified "abstention from blood" with no stated verb saying "Don't EAT" or "Don't DRINK," ''Don't transfuse''. They simply must "keep away" from it (Ac.21:25)
The ancient Romans used blood sausages in their meals, some tribes use blood to seal treaties and some people take the fresh blood of guilty criminals to cure their epilepsy, these were practices that Tertulian an early christian said was unlawful for Christians, Even on the pain of death.

Medical science has come up with different variants and sub-components of blood or blood derivatives that it was necessary to consider if it was lawful to take them or not and they have tried as much as possible to guide us thru using bible principles. And even a lot of these guidelines has been left to the conscience of each individual, as to based on their study of the scriptures does their conscience approve or judge them, this was based on the principle of conscience explained by paul when he was talking about whether it was lawful to eat meat sacrificed to idols or not.

On the issue of Blood transfusion the Bible is very clear on that, but on fractions and other components, that is where revisions have happened on further understanding of such fractions, and even a lot is left to each individuals conscience and no one is condemned about this.

rabzy:
What is the mind of the lawmaker on this issue, The lawmaker has told us that Blood is sacred,

Has he? But you accept blood parts. You see why I feel so unsure of things?

rabzy: So if disobeying the law would incurs death, then do you think if it would be lawful to take it to possibly preserve life.

Yes. Certain things that were normally not allowed were allowed for the purpose of saving lives.

rabzy: Saul's soldiers that were eating meat along with its blood because they were almost dieing of hunger and could not wait for the animals to be bled were not excused.

Actually they were -it seems your knowledge of The Good Book is rusty. Please bring out your Bible and read 1 Samuel 14 and refresh your memory that the prescribed punishment of death penalty was not visited upon a single soldier.

rabzy: The real issue is that the Christian prohibition was to "abstain from blood" (Ac.15:20,29). It required a complete unqualified "abstention from blood" with no stated verb saying "Don't EAT" or "Don't DRINK," ''Don't transfuse''. They simply must "keep away" from it (Ac.21:25)

The Apostles in Acts 15 were not making any new laws. They were reiterating existing laws – do not eat the blood of animals. You can see that from the context of the chapter.

This blood transfusion matter is very complex and I am honestly not up to the task of going into its intricate branches right now. I will just like to say that I have examined this matter and found a lot of contradictions in your stance.

- You reject autotransfusion (re-transfusion of own blood) but accept haemophiliac preparations made from stored blood
- You accept that blood is an organ of the body but reject blood transfusion while accepting organ transplant
- You reject the four major components of blood but accept all fractions of each. You accept haemophiliac preparations as well. These are from stored donated blood but you are forbidden to donate blood.
- You once forbad all things blood. Then you changed to say blood parts were acceptable. This was later changed to the original position. Then changed again. And then again. I hope that will help you to understand why I personally cannot take your interpretation of the Bible in this matter very seriously.

You speak of Tertulian and all. Perhaps you are unaware that some form of blood transfusion existed long before the birth of Jesus Christ on earth. The Egyptians had this practice of giving the blood of an old person to a younger person in the belief it would make them younger. Similar practices existed elsewhere. Don’t you think the Bible would have mentioned it if it had anything in mind other than the eating of animal blood in Acts 15? If this was an important matter to Christians how come it is not spoken of in a sustained manner by the apostles (and the great Paul!) the way such things as fornication and idolatry are spoken of?

And considering the chances of getting infection from blood transfusion is much much lower than those of rabzy getting killed by lightening in Lagos nowadays, don’t you think it is dishonest for you people to continue scaring people by using that line about blood transfusion being dangerous? In the 80’s you had the HIV in every 1/100 units of blood. Today, it’s estimated at about 1/676,000.  The same applies to hepatitis and others. On the other hand, blood transfusion saves about 10,000 lives everyday. Unfortunately, they don’t publish these kinds of figures in Watchtower and Awake.

Honestly, if I were you, I won’t take this blood thing too seriously. You are probably aware that your church once forbad all vaccinations and only God knows how many died as a result of that. Maybe tomorrow they will say all blood transfusions are okay. There are already indications of this. A few years ago your church made a statement to the European Commission on Human Rights stating that Witnesses will not face any sanctions for accepting blood transfusions and that minors may not carry the Medical Release card.

This blood doctrine makes no sense at all. That appears to be the view of many active Witnesses who have been known to accept blood transfusions.

rabzy:
So if we are absolutely sure it is God's law, we all pray God will Give us the strenght to stand up for the truth.

That's the problem. I for one am not absolutely sure this is God's law. When courts interpret laws they try read the mind of the lawmaker. There is simply no reason to think the writers of the Bible had the use of blood to save lives in mind when they wrote what they did. Your church certainly isn't sure what God's law absolutely is on the matter, either, considering the way they keep changing their mind on it. When the Bible is not clear on something, particularly a life and death matter like this, should Christians speculate?

somze:
It is time for Buhari apologists to grow up.

Thank you. I have never seen where it is that people blame those who exercised their democratic rights and voted for the sitting president anytime something goes wrong in the country. I did not vote for Jonathan but for God's sake the election is over and once elected the president is of all Nigerians!

This is most condemnable, if true.

@lastpage
Lol. I thoroughly enjoyed your write-up. Very informative. Well done. Just a few quick observations:

lastpage:
Another is “dusting their feet-off" at the doors of people who don’t want to attend or listen to them!

From Bible account, this is supposed to be a sort of “curse” on that household!
I marvel, why would a  “Christian” want to put a curse on another Christian, simply because they don’t agree with your doctrine (Though more importantly, the Bible also says “Curse without reason shall not land”!).

I see it as not exhibiting the spirit of Christ who preached forgiveness and tolerance.
I recall that God blessed Solomon because “He did not asked for the death of his enemies”, when God gave him the freedom to ask for “anything he wished”. That is a worthy “Christian example”.

(1)  The Witnesses do not have a policy of dusting their feet on people’s doors. They believe that preaching to you serves as a witness and the dust will automatically drop anyway. Of course there may be some overzealous members who will engage in that sort of thing, but this is not a church policy.

(2) About their songs, funny, I actually like them. In fact, I can listen to them all day. It’s only in a JW or Catholic Church service that I may experience some inner peace while attending. In an Anglican or Pentecostal service I just keep praying for the thing to come to an end because of the high decibel noise.

(3) I find your take on the blood transfusion issue a tad simplistic and way too superficial.

claremont:
The OP is on point.

I think he's just gloating over ONE "Christian terrorist".

Right, snowman and theahmed. Got that a little mixed up.

@cbutty  Ha, I was kidding o! Pele. By all means mingle with your brothers. :-) Not that mingling with me will be a bad idea, as I must confess your username does turn me on!

cbutty:
@Top dog, i'll like to chat with you, pls contact me on cbutty@ymail.com or you face book.loving your comment.

Eazyoooo! Internet huzban dey backfaya o!  Before we see a thread: What is Wrong with Marrying Someone You Met on Nairaland? 

__________________________________________________________________________

@kizini

I respect your balanced post. Kudos. What you say about religion reflects my personal view. The only possible difference between us is that I am not afraid to draw the obvious conclusion arising from what you stated so brilliantly, which is that the Lord God is above religion and will not justify or reject anyone on the basis of what they believed in. I believe God will justify us on the basis of the lives we live. (Matt 25:31-46) Jesus summarized it for us: Love your neighbour as yourself. Religions are cultural phenomena with everyone believing they know the mind of God. They arose out of man’s attempt to make sense of the cosmos. I believe some religions are better than others because they preach universal love – but that is for the good of humanity. God is above religion.

People will always criticize religion. Religion is in our face, you know. Universities all over the world have departments of religions. I think religion is fair game for criticism. Especially when they try to recruit us. Freedom of association or religion is not the issue here since religions are allowed to freely propagate their faiths. It is freedom of religion that allows you knock on doors. The same freedom allows people to criticize your religion. As long as it is all done peacefully like you people preach peacefully. You contradict yourself if you preach and then turn out to claim freedom of religion when people criticize you.

I agree with you that whatever people believe in and get inner contentment they should be respected. Well, ordinarily.

Top Dog:
People im absolutely amazed at the misconceptions,hearsay,and fallacious stories being bandied around about the witnesses.

Right. It is indeed wrong to peddle misconceptions and hearsays and people need to desist from such acts. But many religions suffer this problem. As long as you are not mainstream people are bound to misunderstand you and say all sort of things, true, false and partly true.

Top Dog: For crying out loud,the OP solicited an advise on what to do and not the various diatribes and drivels some of you have been ranting all over.Most of the arm chair critic's that have suddenly become "professional psychologists and psycho analysts" should give the witnesses a break,

I talked a bit of psychology in my post at page 5 and I stand by every single word of that post and my other posts. I wrote in response to something written by a Witness who is of the erroneous belief that the cognitive dissonance suffered by ex-Witnesses is evidence of the superiority of Watchtower ideas. Some psychologists have studied this matter and there is considerable text on it, but I would expect you are not familiar with such since you are forbidden from reading such materials. Some will even say you are excommunicated from our God-given right to free thought.

You talk of giving the Witnesses a break. Well, many will find that a tad hypocritical since the Witnesses never give anyone a break. The JWs are the world’s most aggressive religion. I doubt you can expect to push your message at people’s faces in their houses and at street corners and not be talked about.

Top Dog: Its all about making a choice, either to practice what their religion preaches or to back out.Nobody is forcing nor has forced any one to become a member.Guys pls respect the beliefs and doctrines of witnesses.

Right. The Witnesses merely use something called “coercive persuasion”. While looking through the religions of the world, I have come across one or two other religions that use this method, but the Witnesses are most aggressive and effective at it. Still, you are right. People are not physically forced to become Witnesses and once you accept to be a member, you are expected to abide by the rules since at the time of joining you must have found out at some point that you are not allowed to read the Bible or observe world events and give your own interpretation. You must have known you are expected to comply absolutely with anything dished out by the church’s leadership as the latest truth without passing it through your own intellectual process or questioning it in any way. You have must have known that you gave up your right to free thought where religion is concerned once you joined.

Top Dog: @Op if your religion is dat important to you and non negotiable,why do u think her's wont be to her? Marrying a witness wont bring you solace cos there's a disconnect between the spiritual orientations you both profess.If you really love her and have her interest at heart ,u should consider the implications of what it might result for her emotionally,psychologically and otherwise, your gonna be cutting her off from her family and her belief & value system.

Right. Guy probably doesn’t know the implications it would have on her relationship with her family of birth. I think these are issues they ought to consider and should only go ahead if they are prepared to put up with.

Top Dog: For those of you who arrogantly term the witnesses as "sects",kindly consult your encyclopaedia and see what your mainstream religious precipitate business organizations were termed decades ago.

Right. A lot of religions suffer all sorts of things at some point in their history. The question is why? The reasons are usually not the same.

Top Dog: Those witnesses y'all lampoon have won countless legal cases the world over and have established the legal precedent to live their lives according to the dictates of their doctrines.

With respect, Mr Top Dog, this is really not relevant here. There isn’t necessarily a connection between what is legal and what is right. Besides, the Witnesses have also lost many legal cases which you won’t read about in Watchtower and Awake, just as they don’t publish things related to other negatives, including the countless Witnesses that take blood transfusion – ask your doctor friend. It is all a part of an elaborate scheme of the organization to keep members in check by filtering information access and insulating them from reality. This creates Witnesses who are unaware of the uneasiness of life caused by religious literalism, since they are only aware of stories that end well. That is why Witnesses almost always display a childlike response to complex world situations. Bad governance? God’s kingdom is around the corner!

Top Dog: Its called tolerance and openmind but i'll rather call it "common sense" when speaking on issues your not well informed on.

Right. But the Witnesses do not make a consistent application of freedom of religion and tolerance. They are hypocrites in this matter. My assertion is borne out by the humiliation and rejection Witnesses who call it quits are subjected to and the documented cases of suffering some young persons have received at the hands of their Witness parents for repudiating the religion. You are right about uninformed people making unformed statements, but, sir, I am far better informed than you in this matter since you only have access to Soviet-style managed information.

Besides, the Witnesses are the most (No. 1) closed-minded set of people alive. I recognise that religion does this to people – once you accept it you don’t question it, it’s simply the nature of religion. But Catholics don’t disobey every whim of the Pope at the risk of being expelled and publicly humiliated. I have spoken to members of RCCG who disagree with Enoch Adeboye on some of his crack pot ideas and are still happily members of the church.

I observe we have been getting a lot of automated posts here, people disgorging things they read in Watchtower and Awake – “Jesus and his disciples were also disliked”. So what? Isn’t Boko Haram disliked? Does that make them right? Okay, the Witnesses have not been disliked for murder, stealing, or something. Really? Who told you the Witnesses have not been disliked for committing murder? If today you tell someone that he should not take whole blood or blood parts and claim the Bible says so, and tomorrow you change your mind and say the Bible no longer says he should reject blood parts have you not murdered those who died as a result of obeying your first instruction which you invoked the Bible upon? And when a few years down the line you re-invoke scriptural ban on blood parts, only to change mind your and lift it, and then change it again, and then again, should anyone really take you seriously and are you not guilty of mass murder?

Jakumo:
I imagine that anyone with the chutzpah to dock a luxury yacht in Lagos will already be used to beating back relentless boarding attempts by bikini-clad nymphets, seeking to overrun the vessel and force-feed the crew with Viagra for evenings of wanton maritime debauchery.

Lol

I'm cool. Quite some time. How you doing yourself?

cloud7:
[b]MYJOE,Thanks for your Insight,

TO FLAMMINGUN & SEXKIILZ, Truth is not afraid of error, nor the devil. Only the devil runs from the truth, I am gonna educate you more on what you dont know about Nigerian Jehovah Witness and am sure you are one of them.

It is rare to find a  Nigerian Jehovah Witness who has not seen or heard information exposing the dishonesty of the organisation. Why, then, do they not see a problem? Evidently, something else has prevented them from objectively analyzing factual information. Their minds are trained to stop short of doubting the organization - a wall has been erected in their mind.

What kind of powerful motivation prevents the Witness from entering the "dangerous" waters of critical investigation and analysis?
The motivation is simply fear and I dont blame them for that,cos they cant join any other church in Nigeria  if they are no longer a Witness.
In addressing some the issues I raised earlier on,The Witness learns that serving the organization is the same as serving God. The organization is the mother, God is the father, and the Witness is to obey his "parents." Since the Witness cannot see nor experience real interaction with God, his only tie with God is through the visible organization. The Organisation here referers here is the Governing Council,those that publishes Watchtower Literatures, It is, in effect, "God" to them (though they would not admit to or recognize it).

Convincing the Witness that the organization is deceptive is like trying to convince a 5-year-old child who loves his parents that his father is in jail for armed robbery - he simply doesn't believe his father is dishonest. In fact, he can't tolerate the thought, since he has placed all of his security and trust in his father and mother. The truth is too fearful and devastating to consider. Therefore, to protect his source of security, he rejects the factual information as being a lie.

Now back to some of the secret that will not tell you before conversion,I mentioned earlier on about roasted bush meat,their reason is that Bush Meat is trapped with blood before being roasted and u know their stand on BLOOD, Back in the days,they shun taking yogurt reason being its equivalent of drinking bood.
A core witness that belives that the Kingdom of God is at hand wont encourage you to pursue higher education,

Ever wonders why some Jehovah Witness you know suffers amnesia? Will tell you later[/b][color=#000099][/color]

Unlike your earlier post which had me laughing, you displayed a rare gift of communication here. I couldn't have stated the problem so well.

pDude:
   you guys are too Hot! Leave the girl in toba's pix alone and go and outsource for yours. Nonsense!

Why should I find another when I have the most beautiful damsel I have ever set eyes upon right here? And with toba's influence to help me I am sure I won't have to stress myself too much. That girl is making my temperature rise. I will do anything for her. Toba, please now!

Toba, I hear that angel in your profile pic is your sister. Forward me her contact info, asap.

mazaje:
Where is Toba?

Having fun in the Romance section. His paternal instincts becoming dominant, I guess. Apologies to Nuclearboy.

Well, for education purposes, let's break it down and get the facts.

cloud7:
MY BROTHER,A WHOLE LOTS OF THINGS IS WRONG IN MARRYING A WITNESS,FIRST AND FOREMOST,THE LADY IN QUESTION HAS NOT ACCEPTED YOUR MARRIAGE PROPOSAL.IN ANY CASE,U MUST JOIN JEHOVAH WITNESS FOR YOU TO MARRY HER.
BUT IF YOU MUST JOIN JEHOVAH WITNESS,BE READY TO FACE (SLAVERY) COS THERE ARE MANY THINGS THEY WILL NOT TELL YOU BEFORE JOINING THEM,
__________________________________________________

FOR EXAMPLE,DENYING YOUR (REDEEMED) FAMILY,

Partially true. They will remain your family, but your relationship is likely to change since you think they are of Satan's world and will not participate in many family activities. But how effect this has will depend largely on the wisdom of the Witness in handling things and how tolerant the family are.

cloud7: REJECTING JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR MEDIATOR

False. What you say is not their current teaching.

cloud7: , PARTICIPATING IN ANY KIND OF SPORTS

Mostly false. You can "participate" in most kind of sports but you are not normally expected to aspire to "the glory of Satan's world" or "this system of things".

cloud7: ,INABILITY TO ASPIRE TO HIGHER IN EDUCATION ETC

Mostly false. They church leadership has since toned down its diatribes against university education. You are still expected to "put kingdom interest" before such "worldly" things as university education but it is no longer condemned. Young Nigerian Witnesses and their parents never took the diatribes much seriously when they were flowing anyway.

cloud7: IF YOU FINALLY JOIN THEM,IT SOUNDS BIZARE BUT ITS TRUE,YOU MAY  NOT BE ABLE TO EAT SOME KIND OF MEAT,ESPECIALLY ROASTED BUSH MEAT,

True. The problem with "bush meat" is that they are usually caught in traps or shot and not bled like farm animals. For that reason most Witnesses simply avoid any "bush meat" dressed in their absence. But once bled a Witness may eat "bush meat".

cloud7: YOGURT ETC

False.

cloud7: AND THERE IS LIKELIHOOD OF YOU SUFFERING AMNESIA

If I say true to this one, I will need a few paragraphs to explain. So I pass.

cloud7:
MY BROTHER,A WHOLE LOTS OF THINGS IS WRONG IN MARRYING A WITNESS,FIRST AND FOREMOST,THE LADY IN QUESTION HAS NOT ACCEPTED YOUR MARRIAGE PROPOSAL.IN ANY CASE,U MUST JOIN JEHOVAH WITNESS FOR YOU TO MARRY HER.
BUT IF YOU MUST JOIN JEHOVAH WITNESS,BE READY TO FACE (SLAVERY) COS THERE ARE MANY THINGS THEY WILL NOT TELL YOU BEFORE JOINING THEM, FOR EXAMPLE,DENYING YOUR (REDEEMED) FAMILY,REJECTING JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR MEDIATOR, PARTICIPATING IN ANY KIND OF SPORTS,INABILITY TO ASPIRE TO HIGHER IN EDUCATION ETC
IF YOU FINALLY JOIN THEM,IT SOUNDS BIZARE BUT ITS TRUE,YOU MAY NOT BE ABLE TO EAT SOME KIND OF MEAT,ESPECIALLY ROASTED BUSH MEAT,YOGURT ETC, AND THERE IS LIKELIHOOD OF YOU SUFFERING AMNESIA, WILL TELL YOU MANY OTHER SECRETS LATER [color=#000099][/color]

Better go easy on that stuff you've been drinking, brother!

ElRazur:
Personally, I feel Rupert Murdoch wields too much power and influence for one man. I hope the politicians can now break-free from his hold and strip him of his power and influence.

Right. I hope they change the laws.

But I think we need a bit of News of the World in Nigeria. So much corruption and all the work is left for the agencies. Nigerian journalists are mostly lazy, corrupt and filthy. That NOW journal has done a lot of good - seen over 300 people to jail, held politicians to account, broke the parliament expenses scandal and more. It's unfortunate they went into crime by tapping phones.

blank:
Pardon, my ignorance but what did he do wrong? Did he intimidate the owner into selling or into selling at a lower than agreed price? Or he should not have bought it at all cos he was IG? Don't really get it.

Thank you. Nobody is asking for these facts, yet. Just wait and see how people come here an pour scorn on him without even knowing what he did.

coogar:
21st century my purple Bottom! her spiritual inclinations end the moment i pay her bride-price. she became a witness because her parents were - if she had been born to muslim parents, she would be a muslim. this jehovah witness thingy was forced upon her and that ceremony ends the moment she leaves her father's house.

That is possible, but you don't know it for a fact. Once she became an adult she had the choice of leaving but chose to remain. I know it may not be that simple but we cannot just sit here and assume she is there against her will. There are people born Moslem who are no longer Moslems and there are people born JW whose parents are no longer JW and they remain JW - religion is much deeper for some people than what their parents brought them into. I'm not sure where you got the idea from that the man's faith should be imposed upon the woman. Assuming you change the faith you married your wife into she is expected to automatically change her views and follow you? The way to resolve op, since they are not married yet is to sit down and talk things out. Can either of them give up their faith? Can they remain in their separate faiths and and try to build a home? If they answer no to both questions, what they should do is obvious.

Big Meat:
I think the police force in every country have got some elements of people with shady activities.
NPF is just a waiting time bomb full of corrupt officers.

This week in the news from UK, the top police boss and his assistant resigned due to getting involved in shady deals.

Hence my conclusion, police are not to be trusted.

You need to get your facts right.

coogar:
this is one of the most idiotic posts i have read here. . . . .

you are the man(unless you wear sanitary towels) here for feck's sake. it means you can marry from any religion and by rights(especially in nigeria), your spouse must convert to your faith. as a man, i can marry a satan worshipper, a muslim, hindu, buddhist, etc. once we are hitched, she drops her religion and her father's last name to boot!

This is the 21st century. Besides, her convictions and spiritual inclinations do matter.

coogar:
what's your business with what her family wants? as long as there's mutual love between you guys, her family has no bearing in it. if you truly love this girl, propose to her. . . let her deal with her family, and you can fold your hands and watch the drama unfold. if it gets too hot in the kitchen. . . elope with her, hire parents(i heard it's around $4 per head in oshodi) and do a grand wedding.

[quote author=Mrs.guru link=topic=717700.msg8766422#msg8766422 date=1311327614]To be very honest with you poster, a practising JW girl will never be happy to be with you in a marriage if you both have different beliefs. She may marry you now out of passion or infatuation but fews years down the line after the heat of passion has cooled off, physical attraction has reduced and stress of life in the world begin to set in, you'll start having problems because she'll start having feelings of emptiness and she'll feel guilty for not sticking with the congregation full time. She'll then open up to her family again and begin taking steps to practise her faith fully then confusing sets in for you as she'll also want your kids to follow her to the Kingdom hall.
Honestly it is a bad idea to marry a witness girl if you dont agree with their beliefs and way of life.[/quote]Your assertion is true but this isn't necessarily always the case and the reasons are worth stating. The reason italiced occurs to many who leave your religion is because they are victims of multiple phobia grafting. Because what they were fed as JWs are too deep-rooted, they keep having this fear at the back of their mind that they may just be a walking corpse waiting to die at armageddon. You are told this is the true religion, and several tiny details at put on your plate to keep you busy - from cross to birthdays to "God's name" to "Christian neutrality" and a whole lot else. You are bombarded with stories of people who suffered to defend these beliefs and reminded Jesus said people will speak against you, and you think, "this must be the true religion since there are so many details and I am suffering for it and others have died for it and everything is supported with the Bible and. . . " It goes on and on. If you pause to think a little it will all come crumbling down, of course, but in religious matters humans are not designed to pause to think. Besides the JW theology teaches you what to think, such that once your thoughts are straying you quickly slap yourself and remind yourself that you must not allow such "apostate thinking" from creeping into your mind and taking you away from "Jehovah's organisation". The solution? You stop thinking and read more Watchtower publications and pray and go out more in the door to door ministries - your doubts and questions never resolved!

Thus when you leave the church for marriage or any reason, you will always find yourself sometimes wondering what you are doing in "false religion" and scarred stiff of armageddon. The only ones who gain freedom are those who critically examine the whole JW concept and see it for the empty shell it is. Those who realise that the JW brand of "TRUTH" does not connect with FACTS. Anyone who leaves the church just to be free to marry or for any reason but without coming to true epiphany, will suffer cognitive dissonance and other serious psychological consequences as you have suggested. Some come to this knowledge and live quite happy lives after JW.

babaearly:
JW? not at all. i guess you have something different to say from the simple verses that explains the topic at hand. another scripture twisting i guess.

The guy is a JW conspiracy theorist and you will have to get used to that. Once I opened my mouth to question the Trinity doctrine and he accused me of being a "JW elder" and the person that opened the thread, an Anglican, of being a JW guy following me as his "elder"! Just get used to it and you may be able to have a fairly ok discussion with him. He 's quite a brilliant theologian.

[quote author=Missy ★ B link=topic=714507.msg8744917#msg8744917 date=1311067099]Lmao! So, I wasn't the only one lied to, after all?! 
Though grown enough to understand the falsity of these claims, I still steer clear of coconut water. And, no, it neither makes one more intelligent nor dull(er).

These parents ehn!  [/quote]Lol.
My sentiments exactly. I have never summoned enough courage to taste the stuff!

LagosShia:
in sequence to what i've written in the above post,jehovah's witnesses are taught a preaching technique which is more or less a deception when preaching or trying to convert others.they are taught to ask:"what is His name".that is: "what is god's name".

many who are not jehovah's witnesses or are not well informed on the subject would reply His name is "god".the jehovah's witness would reply "god is a title and not a name",so "what is His name".you will be shocked and puzzled to know you do not know god's own name!!!then he (the jehovah's witness) would say with a smile "His name is jehovah".so,they catch you napping.and ofcourse in that way you must join them because who better than them knows "jehovah".you are simply impressed and taught that they are "jehovah's people".that is how they "catch fish" and convert others on a matter they themselves know so little about as explained in my post above.

Lol. So funny. So incisive. So true. After you have been shown "God’s name" from your own Bible and you are still reeling from the shock of discovering this all important gem of truth after owning a Bible for 30 years, you soon learn that God is so merciful that he will not burn people in hellfire. This one really lifts you up into the clouds. The truth at last! You are giddy at this new truth which implies that you have believed all along that God is wicked by burning people – never mind you are now being taught that the same God will soon press the button for Armageddon and have his army of angels carry out a wholesale slaughter of 6.9 billion people (7b -  7.5m, that is, estimated world population minus JW membership) good, bad, adults and children alike, as long as they did not become members of the JW faith. After this, the rest is easy – blood transfusion, you are shown in the Bible, even though the Bible says no such thing; 144,000 people going to heaven, you are shown in the Bible, even though the portion of the Bible where that figure appears clearly suggests the opposite. But at this stage you are already captive, having already learned that people will oppose your new faith and such people are from the devil whose sole preoccupation is how to deprive you of enjoyment in a wonderful paradise earth. You now refer to your new found religion as “the truth” or “Jehovah’s organization” - hot button phrases that stop oxygen supply to the brain!  Now how do you reason with this kind of person? That is what happened to Perito4u. My own sister is a victim.

When I read that Wikipedia entry (apparently done up by Witnesses) I asked myself why anyone would take that seriously. I would wonder how those who teach that the Bible was preserved in perfection by God because it is his all-important book accept that when it came to his own name all God could manage to preserve was four letters of it which now spawn nothing but confusion. I would wonder what is the sense in insisting that a name no one knows its pronunciation is the open sesame for reaching the Almighty God. I would wonder why any Bible translator that hopes to be taken seriously for honesty would assign himself the reckless license to insert that name in the New Testament, using Jehovah to replace Ky′ri•os, “Lord”, or The•os′, “God.”, even though it never appeared there in the available original texts!

RWilliams:
My Joe

You obviously missed or ignored the whole point of my argument on war.

You use an illustration on the leopard in the jungle. The the only thing is in both world wars the "Leopards" were "Christians" on both sides, when they should have been vegetarians. If all the leopards acted like vegetarians then whoever is represented by Hitler would have no one to fight his war. Get it? No obviously not, and even if you did you would not admit it because you are hell bent on vindictivly discrediting any thing JW do, good or bad.

Ok that was not the case (that everyone became vegetarians lol), but two wrongs dont make a right, just because everyone else is doing the wrong thing does not make it the right thing to do. JW's were imprisoned and shot on BOTH SIDES of the conflict, for simply doing what every Christian should have, standing up for Jesus' teaching on war and peace. Whatever the world does in this regard "My followers will be no part of the world"

We know from bible prophecy that the world is following a divinly set plan. These wars and there outcomes are already written as though they already happened in the bible, and no matter what goes on in this world true christains are to be "no part of it" as far as practical. Especially when it comes to politics and war.


You are stating to sound like a very broken record

Lol. Thank you, but I think you have not addressed the issue I have raised. You are sidestepping the point. You, see, Mr Williams, you whole argument, which I have already accepted (by agreeing with you there would be no wars if everyone were Witnesses or refused to fight, but you still ask if I get it and answer yourself that I haven't) is based on an IF, a supposition. When entering a forest full of leopards, would that be good enough? Would you pray and pretend there are no leopards or make preparations on how to protect yourself should you encounter them?

I believe all men, not just Christians, should be vegetarians (in this context). I believe people should not cause trouble or fight wars – you and me are agreed on that, I am not disputing it. I agree that if all men lived like Jesus Christ there would be no wars. Get it now? Now let’s take the argument the way you prefer it – all Christians should be vegetarians. Are they? The answer is no. Let’s call the ones who are vegetarian (live peaceably) good Christians and the ones who are not (make trouble and start wars) bad Christians. The question remains: when my neighbourhood is invaded by these bad Christians with the stated intention of killing the men and enslaving the women and children is the proper thing to fight them or to pick up my Bible and go preaching, pretending God will handle things? In answer, you say if all men at not vegetarian that does not mean that everyone should be like them. That is a good argument – moral standards should not be determined by the majority. But I was talking about a case where you are not the aggressor; that is the point you have not addressed. If the country I currently lives in declares a war of aggression on a neighbour, I will not fight, since I don't give a hoot about patriotism. I certainly don't have to be a Witness to take that decision. And it would be a personal decision as it should be.  You are lumping all wars together. I am talking distinctions. Let me put it differently and more lucidly.

You are at home with your wife and someone attacks and tries to kill all of you. Would you defend yourself? Well, I don’t think you are silly, so you will. Now extend that to the community – someone attacks the whole community and the men are called upon to take up arms. That is what war sometimes amounts to. Now, in making their distinctions, different people will give different interpretations to the situation and some will refuse to join this communal effort at self-preservation. Fine. I may be able to live with that. But that decision should be made on an individual basis and there is something egregiously unhealthy about it when it is handed down by a central authority telling the men not to defend their community. Like I stated earlier, this is a complex issue of life and we may just have to respect each other’s decisions – those who fight and those who don’t – where such decisions are freely and conscientiously taken and not dictated by a group of old men whose personal opinions must not be challenged by a captive group of followers. And it is certainly wrong of you who refuse to perform your duty to the community to claim that just because you did not fight and kill human beings you are morally superior. What I have stated above is the point I was making when I told you that not fighting in wars which you are citing as a point for the Witnesses is not necessarily a good one. That is my personal subjective view on this matter of war and I am not placing it at par with the other important and much more objective points I have addressed in this thread.

Remember Jesus said “no part of the world”, that means he recognized there was a world which refuses to live by his principles. I think that recognition is far better than a childlike refusal to deal with the complexities of the real world! Thank you.

Your assertion on my being vindictive is a tragic mistake since (1) it is untrue (2) it will further obscure your ability to assess my arguments dispassionately the way I have assessed yours. I have previously stated that I have nothing against your faith. I know it’s common for people to make untrue statements about the Witnesses, but you have not accused me of a single lie against your people in this thread. Because you can’t. And I have certainly not discredited anything you do, good or bad in this thread. That is a lie. The problem with your religion is that a well-packaged material (it's full of holes but well-packaged, nonetheless) is mass-produced and aggressively sold from door to door, without the target being shown the whole essence, without the target having the information to make a balanced judgement. Under these circumstances such a person must be deemed a victim! If anyone close to me reads what we have said in this thread and researches them on their own and after assessing all that information decides to join your religion, I will applaud him and give him every support I can. My position is that he should have the information. That is only fair, Mr Williams!

Information compartmentalisation, that is something your religion’s leadership thrives on. (You are probably aware that when the UN saga was raging, several Witnesses were hauled into the backroom and “disciplined” for discussing it with other Witnesses.) It is unfair, wrong and immoral to let people take life-changing decisions on the basis of incomplete, distorted or bleached information. Even for those who are already members, the problem is common. When a member does not understand anything, he is told to wait for God. This from a religion that vehemently rejects every notion of direct sense experience of God.

Oh, yes, you are not entirely wrong about the broken record quip. But I suggest you read your posts and mine all over again. You don’t sound much like a broken record – you simply refuse to address issues you find uncomfortable and are prepared to bend facts to justify an already packaged conclusion. You clearly have an ability to think, unlike Perito4u, but you don’t think things through because you are not allowed to. When someone says something you are unfamiliar with or there is a new scientific discovery you wait for someone to tell you what to conclude before drawing conclusions. When you read a portion of the Bible you are not permitted to see the actual text or think what you think it says, but you are to funnel it through a central thought process. Whenever you are confused you rush to Watchtower publications for clarification because you believe God only speaks through Watchtower. And who told you that? Watchtower! That is what you sound like. It’s a strange phenomenon, religion; at least, some of them!

Actually, there is only one thing you fail to realise: TRUTH has to connect with FACTS. The very day you try to connect truth with facts, you see things differently. I have seen this happen again and again.

JeSoul:
Chai! see yab lol. I prefer to think of her as passionate (bias admitted), and sometimes passionately wrong. The american flavor of patriotism is good now . . . gung-ho[i]-ism[/i] has its merits .

Patriotism sure has its merits. In fact, I would probably recommend a bit of it for Nigerian leaders. Now, to understand the dangers of patriotism, particularly the emotional, unintellectual knee-jerk brand of it you find in places like the US and won't find in places like the UK, you have to take your mind back to 1930's Germany. I'd bet Hitler would never have been able to do what he did in the UK. But like you said there is the flip side - while the British were going on strike after the war, the Germans and the Japanese were building industrial wonders.

JeSoul: Hmmm . . . interesting take on McCain. Well, I've never been really able to pay attention to him long enough to make a concrete decision . . . if 'boring' had a picture . . . . Obama I have always believed to be a good guy possessed with a 'ganja' spirit that smokes the latest reefers, thinking he can ride in on a toyota prius, wave his recycled wand at the crowd of zombies preconditioned with his personal ideologies and magically make the world a better place. That said, if Mitt Romney is the republican nominee, Obama has my vote in 2012 .

Lol. But I think Mr Obama has been practical on a number of things.

JeSoul:

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Well said sir. You would make a most fair and just judge. I guess when the actual responsibility of the Law is on your shoulders . . . its a bit different. The just concluded Casey Anthony trial (I'm sure you kept an eye on it). I agree 100% with the jury's decision to find her not guilty. Case was purely circumstantial . . . we cannot send people to jail simply on our best guess, there was plenty of reasonable doubt even though it is very likely she killed her daughter. Any thoughts on that case?

I didn't follow the trial. But I would like to say that I am not comfortable with the either,  or,  nature of most American trials. Under the English system the judge has a lot of discretion, so it may be established that someone "did it" and he gets a few years in jail because of the circumstances.

This is probably the most filthy thread I have ever read in Nairaland. Considering the antecedents of the thread's principal dramatis personae on this forum as people who take conspiracy theories to absurd heights and hardly ever make any sense, there should be no surprises. But even by their own standards, this is a new low.

But this scandalous thread somehow reminds me of the issue raised in this thread.