₦airaland Forum

@Abuzola and olabowale. I am still expecting your views in the light of the holy quran and and hadith to refute what i have presented.
There is a tradition of the holy prophet in kanzul ummal, which fixed the age of jesus at 120 yrs.
And there is also another which says 'if moses and jesus were alive, they would have among my followers(tafsir ibn katheer.
Is the holy prophet also contradicting himself?

@olabowale, i said i believe he is coming, but not the first jesus. Yes there is going to be two jesus, as there were two elijah.
You and abuzola have not yet refute my views with the quran and hadith.
Whether there is going to be two jinn or not, its not my concern, and what does that has to do with ones faith?
Provide the verses which says jesus is in heaven and prove it. It is not possible that jesus die and come back to life again, its against the quranic teachings

[quote author=Abuzola  1 link=topic=357307.msg5036315#msg5036315 date=1259770339]Interesting ! So Abu hurairah misread Nuzul  meaning abu hurairah was making blunder, hahaha Allahu akbar. First and foremost you belied sahih bukhari which is the highest book of hadith, secondly you accuse abu hurairah of not knowing what he was saying.

Islamic Scholars have agreed that mutawaffiqa in that context means sleep, this is also supported by the hadith above but if we say he die then who is lying, haba remove your pride and accept the truth. Even Quran says the hour will not come till jesus descend,


God said He raised him up in the Quran and the equivalent is descend. But if it is another jesus who is not an angel then how did he manage to ascend talk of descend. Fear Allah and stop misleading people[/quote]why cant you give evidence to disprove what i have said. Look its not easy to accept the truth. Read the quran very well, you will find out that previous nations in which prophet were sent to, never accepted their messenger just like that. You think you are on the right path because your parents friends family are having the same view like yours. Hazrat Ibrahim, when he told his father and his people the truth, they said is it what their father and grandfather worshipped that is false? They were not ready to accept the truth.
When you are also telling the christians to think twice so that they accept islam, do you think its easy? Thats why you would not accept this.
I think you said you are a bible scholar? You ought to have come across the verse of the old testament which promised to the jews, second coming of elijah. Till tomorrow, the jews would not believe in christ because elijah is yet to descend. And elijah must first descend before the christ would come. When christ came, they asked him where elijah is, he told them that he is john the baptist. Still they dont believe him.
Its not surprising that some muslims would not accept the ahmadiyya view about jesus, but the holy prophet has already said that what happened to the jews would surely happen to the muslims would.
All i want is that you refute all i present with evidences from the quran and hadith, not what a scholar says. You know that the holy prophet said that he is leaving two things for us, the quran and his sunna, who ever adheres to it would never go astray.
Its not for me to make you believe. Wa ma ala rasuli illal balagul mubin (the duty of the messenger is nothing but the conveyance of the message). Its Allah who would make you to believe.

From this it becomes clear that it is another person that is going to come who would be the jesus. Some people do even think that the mahdi is different from jesus. But they dont read the traditions well. In ibn majah, the holy prophet said there is no mahdi except isa ibn maryam. Meaning they are the same person. A person bearing two names for two different purposes. He is bearing jesus because his duty related to breaking the cross. He is bearing mahdi because of his duty of reformation of islam.

[quote author=Abuzola  1 link=topic=357307.msg5032288#msg5032288 date=1259712579]Since you believe that hadith explains the Quran then lets start with this

sahih bukhari, vol 4, book 55, number 657

narrated by Abu huraira that Allah's Apostle said,,'By Him in whose my soul is, surely (jesus) the son of mary will soon  descend amongst you and will judge mankind justly , he will break the cross, kill the pigs and there will be no jizya. Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept charitable gifts and a single prostration to Allah (in prayer) is better than the whole world and whatever is in it.


Abu huraira added,'if you wish you can recite it (in the Quran)
'and there is none of the people of the book but must believe in him (jesus son of mary as only a messenger of God) before his death (i.e before jesus death). And on the day of judgement  he will be a witness against them' Quran 4:159


(see also fatal al bari pg 302, vol 7)[/quote]when the quran has already established the fact that jesus (isa ibn maryam, who was sent to the children of israel) is dead, the holy prophet could not have gone or act contrary to it.
The fact of the matter is that nearly everybody has been misled by the word NUZUL in the tradition. Literally it means 'descent'. Therefore most people have been misled into thinking that as the Messiah was to have a descent, it can only be the first Messiah. Now, it is quite wrong to think that the word NUZUL always means 'descent from an eminence'. The word 'descent' only points to how important, significant and far-reaching the thing is which is to descend. It tells us that the thing to 'descend' is to be the instrument of the Majesty and Power of God. Such things are said to 'descend' from God to a people. This meaning of 'descent' (sending down) is in conformity with usage sanctioned by the Holy Quran in several passages. Thus:
And He has 'sent down' eight head of cattle in pairs. (al zumar, 6)
and we 'sent down' iron, wherein is material for violent warfare and many benefits for mankind and that Allah may distinguish those who help Him and His Messengers without having seem Him. Surely, Allah is Powerful, Mighty. (al hadid, 25)
and if Allah should enlarge the provision for His servants, they would rebel in the earth; but He 'sends down' according to a proper measure as He pleases. Indeed, He is All-Aware and All-Seeing with regard to His servants. (al shura, 27)
then He sent down His peace upon His messenger. (9:26). And sent down on you Manna and Salwa Then after the sorrow, He sent down peace on you, a slumber that overcame a party of you. (3:154). We have indee sent down raiment to you to cover your shame, and to be an elegant dress; but the raiment of righteousness, that is the best. That is one of the Signs of Allah that they may remember. (7:26).
Every body knows that peace is a quality of the human mind and sleep a function of the human brain. Animals, garments, green fields, quails (salwa), iron, and other things grow on the soil or come from under it. They do not descend or drop down from Heaven. Nor is their 'descent from Heaven' a description sanctioned by the holy quran. The description of the Holy Quran is quite clear. It says: And He put therein firm mountains on the surface, and He put blessings therein and measured its foods therein into four periods, alike for all seekers. (41:10)

[quote author=Abuzola  1 link=topic=357307.msg5032288#msg5032288 date=1259712579]Since you believe that hadith explains the Quran then lets start with this

sahih bukhari, vol 4, book 55, number 657

narrated by Abu huraira that Allah's Apostle said,,'By Him in whose my soul is, surely (jesus) the son of mary will soon  descend amongst you and will judge mankind justly , he will break the cross, kill the pigs and there will be no jizya. Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept charitable gifts and a single prostration to Allah (in prayer) is better than the whole world and whatever is in it.


Abu huraira added,'if you wish you can recite it (in the Quran)
'and there is none of the people of the book but must believe in him (jesus son of mary as only a messenger of God) before his death (i.e before jesus death). And on the day of judgement  he will be a witness against them' Quran 4:159


(see also fatal al bari pg 302, vol 7)[/quote]when the quran has already established the fact that jesus (isa ibn maryam, who was sent to the children of israel) is dead, the holy prophet could not have gone or act contrary to it.
The fact of the matter is that nearly everybody has been misled by the word NUZUL in the tradition. Literally it means 'descent'. Therefore most people have been misled into thinking that as the Messiah was to have a descent, it can only be the first Messiah. Now, it is quite wrong to think that the word NUZUL always means 'descent from an eminence'. The word 'descent' only points to how important, significant and far-reaching the thing is which is to descend. It tells us that the thing to 'descend' is to be the instrument of the Majesty and Power of God. Such things are said to 'descend' from God to a people. This meaning of 'descent' (sending down) is in conformity with usage sanctioned by the Holy Quran in several passages. Thus:
And He has 'sent down' eight head of cattle in pairs. (al zumar, 6)
and we 'sent down' iron, wherein is material for violent warfare and many benefits for mankind and that Allah may distinguish those who help Him and His Messengers without having seem Him. Surely, Allah is Powerful, Mighty. (al hadid, 25)
and if Allah should enlarge the provision for His servants, they would rebel in the earth; but He 'sends down' according to a proper measure as He pleases. Indeed, He is All-Aware and All-Seeing with regard to His servants. (al shura, 27)
then He sent down His peace upon His messenger. (9:26). And sent down on you Manna and Salwa Then after the sorrow, He sent down peace on you, a slumber that overcame a party of you. (3:154). We have indee sent down raiment to you to cover your shame, and to be an elegant dress; but the raiment of righteousness, that is the best. That is one of the Signs of Allah that they may remember. (7:26).
Every body knows that peace is a quality of the human mind and sleep a function of the human brain. Animals, garments, green fields, quails (salwa), iron, and other things grow on the soil or come from under it. They do not descend or drop down from Heaven. Nor is their 'descent from Heaven' a description sanctioned by the holy quran. The description of the Holy Quran is quite clear. It says: And He put therein firm mountains on the surface, and He put blessings therein and measured its foods therein into four periods, alike for all seekers. (41:10)

[quote author=Abuzola  1 link=topic=357307.msg5027669#msg5027669 date=1259656902]Niyi am less busy today, i will quote the hadith and Quran inshallah[/quote]i am also expecting you. And a magician shall not thrive, come where he may.(20:70)

One more point is that Allah says in sura Nahl 20-21, and those on whom they call beside Allah created not anything, but they are themselves created. THEY ARE DEAD, NOT LIVING; AND THEY KNOW NOT WHEN THEY WILL BE RAISED.
Its a fact which the quran acknowledge, that jesus is among those been called upon beside Allah. Therefore according to this verse,all (no exception is made) is dead. JESUS IS THEREFORE DEAD.
And peace shall be on him who follows the guidiance. (20:47)

As for the statement 'ila' or 'ilaihi', it does not indicate raising in body. Hazrat Ibrahim said ' inni muhajirun ila rabbi' 'i take refuge in my lord'(29:26). I am going to my Lord, Who will guide me(37:99).
Those who are patient would say to Allah we belong, and to Him we are going to return. In sura dhariyat,50, run ye therefore unto Allah. All these do not mean Allah is in a place physically, but it is spiritual. The holy prophet said he saw Allah "bi 'ainul qalb" that is with the eye of his heart.

As for the word rafa'a in the verse(rafi'uka ilayy and bal rafa'ahu llahu ilaihi), it does not mean that the messiah was raised up to the heaven alive with his physical body. 'Rafa'a' here means exaltation in station, rank, degree,or nearness to Him in spirit not is body, because Allah is not in a particular place that he would raise a physical body to Himself. But He is found every where, has He has said: And He is Allah in heavens and on earth,(sura an'am).
In sura araf, 176, and if We had pleased, We could have exalted(rafa'nahu) him thereby. In sura nur, 36, (This light is now lit in houses with regard to which Allah has ordained that they be 'exalted'. In sura mujadala,11, And Allah will RAISE those who believe from among you.
In the tradition, sahih bukhari tafsir sura Rahman, every day He manifest His self, forgives sins, remove distresses, RAISE some nations, and abase others.
The holy prophet said, verily, Allah RAISE with this book, nations, and abase some.(sahih muslim, bab fadli man yaqumu bil quran). the holy prophet said, and none humbles himself for Allah except that Allah RAISES him (bab istijaba l'afwu wat tawad'i)
in the prayer said btw the two sajda: my lord forgive me, and have mercy on me, and protect me, and RAISE me (sunan ibn majah).
From all this prayers, we've never seen anybody been raised up to heaven, or is our prayers not accepted?
Nobody ever thought IDRIS was raised up to heaven with his physical body when God says in sura maryam,56-57, and relate the story of Idris as mentioned in the book. He was a truthful man and a prophet. And We RAISED him to a lofty station. If we say he is alive,physically, in heaven,we will having two options, either he is going to come down to the earth then die or stay in heaven till eternity. As for his coming, there is no foundation for it and none believes in it. As for his staying in heaven with his physical body till eternity, it is contradictory to the verse, every soul shall taste death(sura ambiya), if we say he is going to die in heaven, it will also contradict the verse, therein you shall live, therein you shall die, and from it you shall be brought forth from(araf). The truth is that Allah raised him in spirit, and not bodily, as He has raised all the prophets.

As for the word rafa'a in the verse(rafi'uka ilayy and bal rafa'ahu llahu ilaihi), it does not mean that the messiah was raised up to the heaven alive with his physical body. 'Rafa'a' here means exaltation in station, rank, degree,or nearness to Him in spirit not is body, because Allah is not in a particular place that he would raise a physical body to Himself. But He is found every where, has He has said: And He is Allah in heavens and on earth,(sura an'am).
In sura araf, 176, and if We had pleased, We could have exalted(rafa'nahu) him thereby. In sura nur, 36, (This light is now lit in houses with regard to which Allah has ordained that they be 'exalted'. In sura mujadala,11, And Allah will RAISE those who believe from among you.
In the tradition, sahih bukhari tafsir sura Rahman, every day He manifest His self, forgives sins, remove distresses, RAISE some nations, and abase others.
The holy prophet said, verily, Allah RAISE with this book, nations, and abase some.(sahih muslim, bab fadli man yaqumu bil quran). the holy prophet said, and none humbles himself for Allah except that Allah RAISES him (bab istijaba l'afwu wat tawad'i)
in the prayer said btw the two sajda: my lord forgive me, and have mercy on me, and protect me, and RAISE me (sunan ibn majah).
From all this prayers, we've never seen anybody been raised up to heaven, or is our prayers not accepted?
Nobody ever thought IDRIS was raised up to heaven with his physical body when God says in sura maryam,56-57, and relate the story of Idris as mentioned in the book. He was a truthful man and a prophet. And We RAISED him to a lofty station. If we say he is alive,physically, in heaven,we will having two options, either he is going to come down to the earth then die or stay in heaven till eternity. As for his coming, there is no foundation for it and none believes in it. As for his staying in heaven with his physical body till eternity, it is contradictory to the verse, every soul shall taste death(sura ambiya), if we say he is going to die in heaven, it will also contradict the verse, therein you shall live, therein you shall die, and from it you shall be brought forth from(araf). The truth is that Allah raised him in spirit, and not bodily, as He has raised all the prophets.

2) 3:55, and when Allah said o jesus i would cause you to die (a natural death.) and will exalt thee to Myself, and will clear thee from the charges of those who disbelieve, and will place those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, untill the day of resurrection,
TAWAFFA, if it is from babi-t-tafhil, and the MUTAWAFFA(subject) is Allah or one of the angels, and the MUTAWAFFI (object) is a person with soul, the meaning is nothing but death. A thing contrary to this cannot be found in the quran nor in the books of hadith nor in arabic language nor in any book of arabic poetry. This example from the dictionaries, quran, and hadith will be sufficient:
tawaffa-l-lahu fulaanan means he took his soul.(aqrabul mawarid)
TAWAFFA LAHU means he took the soul.(qamusu muhit, lisan ul arab)
from the quran:
And those of you who die and leave wives behind,(2:234) and in death number us among the righteous(3:193) let death come to me in a state of submission to thy will and join me to the righteous(12:101).
From the traditions:
hazrat Aisha says 'TAWAFFA N nabiyyu fi bayti. (the holy prophet died in my room). In the funeral prayer, the holy prophet recite, man tawaffaitahu minna, fatawaffahu alal iman.
Ibn Abbas says in his tafsir, MUTAWAFFI KA MUMIITUKA. MUTAWAFFI KA is I will cause you to die.

I believe jesus christ is dead the way other prophets died, but not on the cross. I also believe that "isa ibn maryam" is coming as foretold by the holy prophet (saw).
The holy quran mentioned his death in a number of places more than it even mentioned the death of other prophet. And one fact still exist, and it is as long as the muslims are still believing that jesus is still alive, they are supporting them in their belief, because they would (in that case be worshipping a living god)
This are my evidence (from the quran) that he is dead:
1) 5:117- 'and i was a witness over them as long as i remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou hast been the Watcher over them;and Thou Witness over all things'.
There is no doubt that this verse indicates clearly about the death of isa ibn maryam. This is because of the question asked at the begining of the preceding verse (and when Allah will say, 'O Jesus, son of mary, didst thou say to men, 'take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?). If we accept as it is said that, it is an event which is going to occur on the day of resurrection, then,we should know that jesus is saying that he was a witness and a watcher over his people as long as he was among them. And that they never turned in to disbelievers(taken him for a god), except after he left them(he died).
But if it is that he returned from heaven as it is said, he would have surely knew that his followers have gone astray and have taken him for god. It is a known fact that the christians take jesus for god (5:72, indeed they are disbelievers who say surely Allah is none but the messiah son of mary.) and they have not stoped taking him for god. Then it would be a lair(God forbids) on his path to deny that he doesnt know about it.
In hadith bukhari, it is narrated that the holy prophet, on the day of judgement, would want to intercede for some people who would be on the left side. Then he would be told that they deviated after you have left them. Then the holy prophet would then recite 5:116. Bukhari vol 6, kitabu tafsir, 5:116.) does this mean that the holy prophet was also raised?

A christian should pls explian the similarity that occured btw jesus and jonah, as he prophesised in matt. 12:40.

Assalamu alaikum.
Lets start gradually from 3:55, present 10, or at least 5, deferent places where the word TAWAFFA has been used to mean take up or raise up, except 5:117. Because it seems its only when the word is used in relation to jesus that you take it to mean raise up.
If you dont present it i would, !

I would like a christian to pls explain the similarity which occured between jesus and jonah. Matt. 12:40

Let start, i know that jesus prophesised his going in to the heart of the earth the same way jonah went into the belly of the whale. Matt. 12:40. Pls explain the similarity which occured?

sokislam:
The Qur'an is not a sufficient support for your claim. It can never be. How can u talk about the death of Jesus when the Qur'an does not give the detailed of Jesus.

did i ever quote the quran for you if it is not that you asked me? I know you do not accept the quran, therefore it would be foolish for me to be forcing a thing which you dont accept on you. The topic says that you should bring forth evidences from your scriptures, to prove that jesus really died on the cross and not latter. Not that you quote that some certain verse says he died, you present circumstances which also prove so.
I will also like to ask if you believe science to be true or false?

sokislam:
The Qur'an is not a sufficient support for your claim. It can never be. How can u talk about the death of Jesus when the Qur'an does not give the detailed of Jesus.

did i ever quote the quran for you if it is not that you asked me? I know you do not accept the quran, therefore it would be foolish for me to be forcing a thing which you dont accept on you. The topic says that you should bring forth evidences from your scriptures, to prove that jesus really died on the cross and not latter. Not that you quote that some certain verse says he died, you present circumstances which also prove so.
I will also like to ask if you believe science to be true or false?

Do not be brainwashed. What is the criteria for judging a perfect book.

modupe01:
Give me the name of Esau in the Qur'an and I will give you the evidence of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.  Deal?

he is not mentioned in the quran. It is not all the prophet that was mentioned in the bible that was mentioned in the quran.

I dislike the idea of isa been in heaven because it is against the clear statement of the quran, and also derogatory to his unity.
I would have like to discuss at length but i am very busy here, nd my phone is not as east as a computer. Therefore, lets take the points gradually, one by one.
You would present the points you want us to discuss then i start, not bring that of nazala, then rafaha etc.

@Nuclearboy, Allah is the proper name of God. This is also the name which He told us He is bearing in the quran. In arabic god means 'ilah'. The definite article 'Al' in Allah is inseparable. This is a name(ALLAH), that cannot be shared by Him with anybody.nobody dears share that name with Him. But one can bear His attributes, the word 'abdul' prefixed to it like Abdur Rahman, Abdul Lateef etc.

@Nuclearboy, Allah is the proper name of God. This is also the name which He told us He is bearing in the quran. In arabic god means 'ilah'. The definite article 'Al' in Allah is inseparable. This is a name(ALLAH), that cannot be shared by Him with anybody.nobody dears share that name with Him. But one can bear His attributes, the word 'abdul' prefixed to it like Abdur Rahman, Abdul Lateef etc.

sokislam:
It is a pity that the Muslims don't understand their Qur'an, and they are taking a step further to interpret the Bible. The death of Jesus is mentioned in the Qur'an. But they take no time to study it.

Well, if u need evidence I will provide it.

i need evidence. But know that while the quran declares that jesus is dead, it denys the belief that he died on the cross.

In 4:157, almighty Allah is rejecting two allegations. 1)blasphemy on maryam, jesus mother. 2)the jews boast of having killed jesus.
The two have already been rejected. Is God not powerfull to save jesus without taking him to heaven. God says in sura mursalat 'have we not made the land sufficient, (to hold) the living and the dead?

For rafa'a in sura nur, vs 36,in relation to mosques.
TAWAFFA i mean , if God is the subject, would automatically mean death.
You say according to the quran that Allah is settled throne. Where is the throne? In sura hud, it is written that the throne is on water. So is the water in heaven?(smiling),
who told you that adam and eve were both in heaven. ALLAH says in 2:30, that He is about to place a vicegerant on earth not in heaven,was it only the two of them that was in it? GOD when sending then out said 'ihbituu', it is used in the plural form.
YANZILU is from NAZALA. It means to descend. Does it also mean a physical descent. The holy quran describe the holy prophet has descending. Iron is also described as descending and so on.

[quote author=Abuzola  1 link=topic=357307.msg5014849#msg5014849 date=1259474251]@niyi- do you know that i ve not started with u yet,  my Quran and hadith is reserved[/quote]when there is whirlwind, the breez would not be noticed. Still reserve it. Hope it is not yourself made hadith?

Jesus is already dead and enjoying in paradise. His tomb has been discovered at khanyar street, sirnagar, kashmir, india. Visit this link http://www.alislam.org/topics/jesus/

aksat:
@ niyi, I will say that it is both, because God reveals to them by allowing them to see it.

Go and check the bible especially KJV. the book of matthew is titled  '' THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO MATTHEW '' likewise mark,luke and John.

The Word of God is forever settled in Heaven. It is a mystery and No one can question God about it. That is why the Bible says, No one is permitted to add to it or to remove from it.

are you sure that there is no contradiction or nothing is been added to it nor removed, in/from the bible you called the 'word of God'?
Pls reconcile this: in john (3:22-26 and 4:1-3) we are told that even before john was put in prison, jesus had started preaching his message and baptizing people. But in matthew (4:12-17) and mark(1:14-15) we are told that jesus started preaching after john's imprisonment.
According to luke (3:23) joseph, the husband of mary, was the son of Heli; but according to matt. (1:16) he was the son of jacob.
In luke (24:50-51) we are told that jesus was carried up into heaven at Bethany. But in the acts (1:12) we read that the ascension took place on a mount called Olivet.

I am not rejecting the hadith. If you read bukhari very well, you will come across where the holy prophet (saw) gave the description of the jesus of the israelites and the description of the coming jesus. Though it was a vision. That of the first jesus was described under the tradition which discusses about the miraj, while that of the later jesus was described under the traditions which discusses about dajjal.