₦airaland Forum

debosky:
We don't need your conspiracy theory thread to know that there can be no 'new world order' without the richest and most powerful nations in the world. Your crusade against Obama is a bit silly - I didn't see this 'attack' on Bush or other leaders, even though everyone knows that Obama is a democrat and is by definition liberal.

when did u start using the internet? or exactly how informed are u?. . . .its an open secret that bush et all are protagonists of the new world order.

yup . .   . ,   thats the addy i use for initial NL correspondence.

MyJoe:
I am surprised at this. I read a post where you said you have seen reincarnation – not your exact words but something like that. Now you reject it just because you can't find it in the Bible?

While I cant recollect the post in question or ever "seeing" reincarnation. . . I personally do not subscribe to reincarnation. It is appointed unto men to die once and after which judgement.

But I do however believe that heavenly persons take human forms to do the works of God. . .Like God himself did 2000 years ago. Angels might also take human form to perform the work of God. . .but there is no biblical basis to believe that humans reincarnate.

davidylan:
In my own opinion, i think Olaadegbu has it right. What God promised was not the reincarnation of both Moses and Elijah but the return of the spirit that was upon them on two prominent men of God at the end of time.

This is true. The question is it their individual spirit or the "prophetic" spirits? Like u said though its their prophetic spirits. . as such there is no basis for anyone to suggest their reincarnation.

As regards whether the two witnesses are Elijah with Moses or Enoch . . . i think verse 6 makes it clear it is refering to Elijah (shut heaven that it would not rain) and Moses (turned rivers into blood).

Nah bro, While verse 6 tells of their works, it does not point to Elijah's reincarnation. I will take Jesus word for it that John the baptist was Elijah.

toba:
Theres nothing like re incanation in the bible. Its neither elijah, moses or enoch. They may be moulded or fashioned in the styles of the 3 mentioned above. What if they would be angels?

I am more inclined to believe that they are/would be angels. . . cos the scriptures refers to them as two lampstands and two olives that stands in the presence of God. this would correspond to the cherubums erected in the sides of the ark of covenant by moses.

The interesting part is their ministry, it would definitely be in contrast to present day christianity.

Deep Sight:
So why then were you wondering if the two witnesses would be moses and enoch?

Are they to fly down from heaven on chariots of fire or be reincarnated?

I was not wondering. . . .I only threw it up for discourse. It cannot be Elijah moses or Enoch . . .there is no basis for such.

Deep Sight:
^^^ Any person with the slightest apprehension of the Godhead must instantly dismiss the notion that it is possible for any spirit being to attempt to "depose" God, or "enter into war" against God, or try to become like God.

how about the FREE WILL God gave to man? are angels robotic beings who just obey without reasoning? while Angels do not have an absolutely comprehensive understanding of the nature and mysteries of God . . . .they do however have free-will and yearn to know the things of God.

Satan did not attempt to war against God . . . .he simply chose to make himself LIKE God. . . .this is considered a sin. This sin led to war, as there cannot be a rival to God in the heavens.

Such an endeavour is even more implausible when once considers that the lead coup plotter is said to be an angel of such high office that the eternal, self-existent and intangible nature of God is doubtless known to him. That God IS is something such an angel would know and in light of this it becomes comical to conceive of such a being attempting to war with the intangible self-existent reality that is God, or become like God.

These really do sound like ancient semitic folk tales; which is what they are anyway.

You are simply assuming that satan has no mind of his own.

Deep Sight:
Do you believe in reincarnation?

There is no biblical basis for such belief. . .as such Nope. However I do concede that there is nothing impossible with God.

MyJoe:
Does Satan exist as an independent entity? The short answer is I do not find it plausible.

Below is the fairly long answer.

First consider the candidates nominated for Satan by the Abrahamic faiths, particularly Christianity and Islam. He was made by God, but he turned bad and started messing things up. This Satan is presented as the powerful ruler of an underworld kingdom whose sole preoccupation is to do evil, stop Christians worshipping God, and stop people from becoming Christians. Hardly makes sense. Whatever was Satan thinking when he rebelled against an omnipotent God who created him, knowing he could not hope to win? And some angels were so dumb to sail with him? Remember these guys relate with God one-on-one, unlike humans who don’t and so sometimes doubt the existence of God. And this just brings God to the level of humans – making plans and having such plans messed up. Impossible.

Good posers you have raised . . , but have u considered the possibility that u are seeing it from a different (and "perhaps" wrong) perspective?

1. From what we know of satan, just one word is prevalent. . he sinned. If you consider that satan was once the highest ranking angel who also had several angels under him, then it is impossible to dismiss the possibility of satan becoming ambitious to upstage God. That ambition is what God called sin. We are discussing an immaterial world here where all that matters is glory, worship and adoration. It is as such conceivable that satan would desire to be just like God. If u also consider that as "black-labelled" as satan is, many all over the world still worship him. . . that tells you the original intentions of satan.

2. Satan could not have foretold the failure of his plans or the reactions of God. As the scriptures would state that satan was the first person ever to face judgement. Satan was given a future judgement by God . . . . that he should first be cast out of "heaven" and then be cast into the lake of fire when he finally gives his powers to the anti-Christ. Though we know of Abbadon who is held in the bottomless pit and the other beasts chained to another location. while we do not know their offence, one can infer that they sinned against God.

3. Satan does not care if u "worship God or not" (though he tries to prevent u from experiencing true worship). He does not care if u go to church or not. what he wants to do is to truncate the plan of God for mankind. The plan of God for man is to bring us to a point of salvation and give us an eternal life. This was the same eternal life that has been taken away from satan and other fallen angels. and their corresponding reaction is that, "if I cannot have it, then no one can". And the only way they can stop man from obtaining his God-given spiritual destiny is to destroy the relationship between man and God. That explains atheism, deism, budhism, satanism and all other forms of idolatry.

4. God made no plan for angels. We have no record of such plans. He gave all FREE-WILL. satan used his free will and fell. God made plans for mankind, but also gave us free-will to choose.

Then consider the traditional Hebrew satan, the one depicted in the book of Job as a member of God’s own court, acting as God’s intelligence chief and testing who is worthy of favour. He also performs a similar role in Genesis, where he tests the first couple to find out if they were worthy of the paradise bestowed on them, except this first time he was yet to get into the habit of obtaining God’s permission.

1. The question should be. ,  .where is satan now? is he in heaven, "heaven", hell or on earth? While we know that satan does not dwell on earth but influence the things on earth. we also know that he does not dwell in the presence of God. he also is not yet in hell, as his time has not come. What happened in the book of Job was an appearance before God. Satan dwells in the spirit realm which can only be called "heaven" for lack of words. how do I know this? The bible tells of a time to come when satan would be cast out of the "heavens" into the earth (revelation 12:7-9)

2. In the garden of eden, all satan did was to ensure that man fell, just as he had. he succeeded in doing that. In Job's case, to understand why satan needed God's permission you need to examine satan's response to God. . . job 1:10 . . . .there was a hedge around Job that made it impossible for satan or anyone to afflict his family. In the case of Adam and Eve . .  .all they had was a command from God telling them not to eat of the forbidden fruit.

3. Satan does not tempt you to bring out the best in you. . . .he tempts you to make u fall and fall victim of God's judgement. Satan also tempted Jesus. . . .was it to help Jesus or make Him fail?

In any case, I fail to see the need for, or workability of, this kind of Satan. How does he tempt people? Does he have the power to influence thoughts? Like he incited David to number Israel in one account, by which coup he successfully forced Yahweh to dispatch the hosts of heaven to slaughter thousands of Jews. Nobody would be safe from him. Does he work by making life hard for you so you would curse God like the case of Job? When I tragically lost two sisters a few years back could that be Satan trying to see if I will curse God, having obtained God’s permission to try? Again we would all be unsafe and just be balls on a billiard table. Worse, this would reduce God to a ghoul who revels in watching mischief from an imperial throne. You know, the kind of “God” described in the movie, “The Devil’s Advocate”. And what we see around us does not tell us that people who suffer hardship are more likely to curse God by words or action than those who live in affluence, does it?

1. The concept of satan has gone beyond lucifer's personality. Satan is now a representation of anything not of God. . ,  .which are sin and evil. Satan is not omni-present and as such cannot be every where to incite every one. but the sin of man bears fruit all over the world to the glory of satan and his success in the garden of eden.

2. Satan is ONLY attracted to Godliness and righteousness. The case of Job and David attests to this. When a person chooses to live for God and not for the lusts of the world, satan is attracted as he sees the heirs of eternal salvation. Satan plots to ensure that the gift of salvation is not effective in the life of man.

3. unless and until u begin to live for God. . . .satan is admissibly indifferent to u.

4. my condolences with regards to ur sisters. . . .but there is an appointed end for all of mankind. . . .the question is are u prepared?

I am not quite as certain as Deep Sight about what is eternal and self-existent and what is not, or about light and darkness being centripetal and centrifugal respectively. (Mind you, I am not dismissing that, just not as certain as Deep Sight about it.) But it does appear that if there were no bad things around we would have no conception or measure of the good. I believe the world is the way God created it, with good and evil existing side by side and with men having the freewill to choose. I am not suggesting that God created evil, just that it was bound to come about with men having freewill. I guess that is why Deep Sight sees these things as self-existent. The existence of Satan would take away that freewill since Satan has supernatural powers and we don’t. Just a bit of that power would be all it takes, since, unlike God who endows us with and respects our freewill, Satan is said to have a consuming passion in getting us to buy shares in his venture.

this is just an opinion. . . which is plainly unfounded.

But who really needs a satan, anyway? We may have lost Joseph Stalin, Foday Sankoh, Ali al-Majid, Samuel Doe, Papa Doc, Pol Pot and the others, but as I write this, Omar Hell-Bashir, Ibrahim Babangida, Ramzan Kadyrov, Than Shwe and a few others are still capably in the business of underwriting evil in the world.

All of the above people have done things (works) which glorify Satan. . . just like Jesus told His followers to do things that would glorify the Father (mathew 5:16)

From what can be observed, the concept of alternate realities as taught in Tibetan Buddhism and several other worldviews is something one cannot dismiss. It appears whatever you believe strongly in takes on significance in the spiritual plane, becoming your world. This has been dealt with earlier in this thread. I will like to put “evil spirits” down to alternate realities, but I cannot be so certain about this. While I consider that a likely possibility, there is another possibility of dead people whose volitions are evil having something to do with it. Now that (italics) is pure speculation. Same as I would have offered if you asked me about Paul the Octopus.

That we have limited information of the spiritual/immaterial world. . .does not dismiss its existence.

One of the promised wonders of the end-time is the presence/ministry of the two witnesses. These two are to have a great ministry that confronts the anti-Christ.
The text about them can be found in revelation 11.

This thread intends to discuss the deductions from revelation 11. There have been several interpretations of the text about the witnesses.

1. Should the text be taken literally or symbolically? or does it contain an element of both?
2. Are the witnesses humans? Are they Elijah and Moses / Elijah and Enoch/ Moses and Enoch? Are they two common Christians groomed and fed with power by God? are the witnesses symbolic of the church and Israel? are the witnesses Angels/Cherubs incarnated as witnesses? Are they the old and new testaments as some choose to believe?
3. is their ministry pre-tribulation or post tribulation?


. . . . .please avoid one-line responses. , . .they make no sense.

^^^ bro please dont stop being a light in this darkened world. carry the flag and keep the light on. . .God bless u.

KunleOshob:
This is a suprise coming from Olaadegbu who subscribe to so many false doctrines such as tithing [size=18pt]and trinity which lack sound scriptural basis[/size] and were NEVER taught by the apostles mandated by christ to spread his gospel.

really? how does Trinity lack scriptural basis?

^^^ Go and ask Adam

nopuqeater:
^^^Is your brain already dead, noetic?

No, not at all. but my brain has lost the ability to rationalize senseless submissions like the one u submitted.

My point is that there is no need to read the Bible when a muslim has the Quran! The guy is in Egypt for crying out loud. Its a majority muslim country, where a muslim is constantly reminded that there is no true God, except that Allah is that Only True God. That any one proclaimed to be a God, is either himself is a god, or somebody has created him to be his god.

While Egypt might be an islamic country,. , .could the dude not have picked it up out of curiosity? 99.9% of the non-Christians that hate JC have never read the gospels. . , The Egyptian dude was only curious and his curiosity led him to the bible. I wonder why u find this unbelievable.

Jesus of the Quran is the true Jesus. Jesus of the Bible is a make up god jesus that never was. Why never was?

how did u come to this conclusion? did u read the bible-accounts of Jesus? if u did, why not allow others to also read and make their personal conclusions?

He will never have accepted your nonsense about him, if he heard you with your make up story. Thats my point, darn idolator cross worshipper! Check your neck, or your church, for the cross. You will find your idol, somewhere around there.

The above is just a senseless and ill-informed rant fuelled by bigotry and illiteracy. The gospel of the cross is foolishness to those who perish. The Egyptian dude has made his own decision, so also have you. . .I only hope u are able to face the imminent consequences.

nopuqeater:
if I were savvy in computer screen manipulation, I would have drawn two diagonal corner to corner lines intersecting at the middle over your piece, above.

Egyptian Muslim, reading (Injil)? Why? Quran is not superior to it? Islam does not have enough details about Isa bin Maryam (AS) and he had to go to the bible to look for jesus that never was?

Are you for real? Hardly so, I am sure. Any "muslim" who becomes Christian is free to do so. But to lie that there is anything special, worthy toknow in the bible except fantasy is actually really out reaching statement.

and ur point is?

Nice testimony.

debosky:
Evasive? No - the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim. Let the person making the link provide evidence.

You also made a claim by simply disagreeing with him. what happened to objectivity? what happened to" disagreeing with people's submissions by simply presenting a superior argument"? where is ur own superior argument or submission?

Ok - so how come we are told the age of the earth by the so called 'literal creationists'? Are we told the age of the earth in Genesis 1? Sounds like an addition to me.

did u ask for the basis of this age stated? does the accounts of genesis 1 not add up to the present day?

You are trying to force creationism into the message of salvation, [size=14pt]which is wrong[/size]. Jesus did not say to sinners 'accept the creation account before you can be saved', it says accept Jesus so you can be saved.

another false prophet.

I asked u a simple question. . .can u separate the message of Jesus from His divinity? can u disbelieve His account of the creation but then believe His salvation?
You have believed an alien Jesus.

The term is very significant, since it attempts to make differentiations based on different interpretations of the bible. A general name is different from a term qualified by adjectives. Christians is a general name, while Pentecostal Christians, Orthodox Christians and others are man made creations - get the difference?

as usual u miss the point. The point is that the label people carry is insignificant in comparison to the contents. Literal creationism is in cognozance with the teachings of Christ. QED.

What do I disbelieve? God created it - the precise mechanism of creation is of little or no interest to me. Given the disconnect between what the so called 'literal creationists' believe (e.g. age of the earth) and what scientific research (e.g carbon dating) shows, I choose to focus on the core message of God being the creator, instead of having endless arguments and trying to pin down the exact age of the earth as a requirement for salvation.

Jesus didn't ask the robber on the Cross to accept Genesis as 'literal' (or whatever other term you might come up with) before he could enter paradise - all that was required was believing Jesus is the Son of God sent to take away the sins of the world.

This is dishonest. LC is not primarily concerned with the age of the earth.

Jenwitemi:
My case is short and straight to the point.

All the attributes of omnipotence, omnipresence, omniscience, omnibenevolence which are meant to be of the creator cannot be applied to Yahweh, because he falls way short of all these attributes, therefore he is an impostor who has falsely taken the position of the creator God.

Take the attributes one by one and show EXACTLY how He falls short of each of these attributes?

In all his actions and deeds chronicled in the bible OT,  he displayed none of those attributes, so he cannot be the creator God.

which actions? how? how does ur supposed inability to display these attributes make Him not to be the creator?

Above all, he is a "HE", meaning that he was either created by jewish male priests, or he was an evil, physical, male entity trying to play the creator.

what is this?

^^^ oight state ur case

^^^^ really? please present ur case.

who else could have created the world?

^^^ I laugh in swahili

can this be more dumber? making a case against Jesus divinity using the bible and koran.

At ease, u claim the bible is corrupt and unGodly and yet use the same to juxtapose the satanic projections from ur koran.

@ OP

Classic and beautiful!!!


@ Jagunlabi

That was a poor attempt at mockery. On a side note many Christians have tasted a life outside of Christ and can confidently assert that it is bitter.

debosky:
Kindly show me where God called women's liberation abomination.

To make a claim you have to provide evidence - let Ola show where women's lib is akin to godless religion.

quite evasive 

what is women liberation? is it reconcilable with biblical/Godly teachings? if so, show me ,   . .

What is a 'literal creationist'? Is that term in your bible? Again, it is a human invention unless you can prove otherwise.

blah blah blah. ,  . . .literal creationism is just what Genesis 1 emphatically states. No additions, subtractions or assumptions.

Off point - where have I challenged the Lordship of Jesus? 

did u not get the point? 
u IGNORANTLY claimed that creationism is not the subject of Christ message. . .and I simply related His message to creationism. . .cos Christ Himself is the CREATOR. If u dont believe His account of creation, why then do u believe in His account of salvation? 

Ah I see - that good old claim of believe all or none. I have not disbelieved anything, all I have said is that the exact interpretation of events before the beginning of history must be taken with a pinch of salt. Some read the bible's references to foundations to mean the earth was flat, some interpreted it to mean the earth is the centre of the universe and was not moving. Both have been disproved - does that make the bible invalid? No - our interpretations can be wrong.

what was ur point? 

Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the entire universe was formed at God's command, that what we now see did not come from anything that can be seen.

I understand that God created everything by faith - I DO NOT claim to understand the specifics, creating terms like 'literal creationist' and 'metaphorical creationist' (if such a term exists), neither do I spend time trying to prove things that are not fully understood. Knowing God created everything is good enough for me.

This is deceitful semantics.

1. Christ also did not call his followers by any general name. . .yet the world called them CHRISTIANS. The label carried is insignificant when compared to its content. The term "literal creationist" is insignificant, only the content is.

2. You understand that God created it all by faith. . . .yet you disbelieve His account of creation as recorded in genesis. . . . .who are u attempting to fool?

^^^ are u not aware? the looks is leading us to the alter already.

Tudór:
Toneyb stated sometime ago he is leaving nairaland for good. . . . Quite a heavy loss I might add.

I tot he was joking . . . but i hope he reconsiders. Toneyb is a brilliant chap, regardless of his anti-Christ notions.

Unfortunately what we have now is half-baked illiterates who populate and destroy this section.

lol, , sad but true

davidylan:
On the periphery bro. In the midst of transition from one stage of life to the next leaving little time for nairaland. will be back in full force in a few weeks.

thanks for asking.

I have been online lately but without the motivation to make posts. . . .so bro I will be awaiting your resurrection with a huge sigh of relief . . , cos I am sure with u around, this section will be fun again.

Tudór:
fear not. . .the pics I have look over 40 years old i doubt if its you from u saying you're 'happily' single.

If I was 40, Jesoul would not take a second look at me . . . .

em. . .but pls dont dig, just let us all enjoy the anonymity of the forum. The moment my anonymity is eroded, I might as well say goodbye to nairaland.

please dont tell me Toneyb is gone for good?


and where is Dafidi?

debosky:
So women's liberation is now akin to Godless religion?

you call it "liberation" . . .but what does God call it? . . .Abomination.

Heaven knows where you get your theories from - or did the bible tell you this as well?

does the bible deny or contradict any of Ola's arguments?

'literal creationism' or whatever theory (because that is what it is - a theory) you adopt was not even the focus of Christ when he came, yet some people will want to make this the basis for Christianity. It is not - the basis is Jesus' death on the Cross to Redeem man to God, not the amount of time it took/didn't take God to create the world.

This is a SATANIC LIE being peddled as knowledge.

1. All of Christ's followers/believers were LITERAL CREATIONISTS . . , these were people whose ancestors had walked through the red sea on ground level. . . .people who were expecting a messiah. The pharisees, saducees and the rulers of the earth at the time of JC were literal creationists. . .a little biblical and historical dig would reveal this out.

2. Christ bodly claimed to be the "I AM". , the creator . . .and yet u state that this was not part of His mission. how can u believe JC, if u dont believe His divinity? how can u accept His gift of salvation, if u dont believe in His ontology? how can u call Jesus LORD, if u dont believe He is LORD?

3. If u dont believe the bible accounts of creation. , . .why then do u believe the bible accounts of salvation? you cannot choose what to believe or disbelieve. u either believe all or none.

Even the bible says we know in part and will know fully in the future - if a person does not accept your particular interpretation, it might be a result of knowing in part - again this should not be the focus.

what have u done to the part that was revealed to us through the bible?

seriously . . .can u mail the pics to me?