₦airaland Forum

D-Optimist:

I sense you are a person who wants truth. I beg you in Christ's Name to answer these 3 questions -

[1] who is the "Lord's Anointed" and His "Prophet"?

[2] who in the Bible said "Touch not my anointed and do my prophet my harm" and when (in what context)?

[3] who was he talking to i.e. who was he telling not to touch these "anointed prophets"?

If you agree to answer, you can make the answers short or you can expound on them! Thank you, Bro

[size=4pt]ps: I wager there will be a hastening to answer these and change the topic by the dude who looks into mirrors and sees a simpleton[/size]

Old-Testament Tonye-T:

I can't be destroyed - I don't keep YOUR company

Image:

And now you've had your poorly put together and communicated "say", what have you accomplished?

[1] You made us realise you're not interested in whether the giving is cheerful or labored or forced when you say

Image123:
Well, is anyone going to hell if they give uncheerfully,no? Does God hate an uncheerful giver, I ask?

so as long as you collect, it doesn't matter whether they're uncheerful or not. You're likely a pastoral assistant waiting for his turn to be "sent forth" so I can understand.

[2] You show the confusion in your life (no brain and no heart, anyway) when you call people who are not collecting from anyone thieves and say it is those collecting that are "godly" and honest.

[3] You lie. I HAVE EVERYTHING against tithes and never said otherwise. What I have nothing against is gifts from the heart, not your legalistic "tithe" that makes a mockery of God's intentions for His children.

[4] Your ignorance - we quote God's Word but are "devoid of God's Word".

Did you ever hear this - "They that sow the wind shall reap the whirlwind"? Its in Hosea 8:7 (thats in the Bible) and like all things God says, it shall come to pass

I'm fine, Ma'am. You?

Will be watching to see Pastor's response to you but I think he ought be let off (this time). Problem is its likely him that'll insist on tying himself in knots. Never seen people so unwilling to listen to others yet so needful of it. Whatever happened to the idea that none of us is perfect and that iron sharpens iron? Come to think of it, baby-teeth like mine can't sharpen Nada.

You've not come down hard (as you think), Viaro

You only made your position known and I did mine too, albeit, a bit earlier.

^^^ I thought he was missing just the Brain portion of humans. And now you say he got no heart too

Na wa O

All the turenchi gives me headaches!

@Joagbaje

"And these signs shall follow them that believe". TRUE! Follow them "where", chairman? To bed where you drive out demons, heal the sick or get bitten by lions?

The context in which Christ was speaking was evangelical. Add that to the Spirit giving as He wills and what you get is the WHOLE truth.

Let me explain - The Apostles and believers today would encounter situations where things out of the ordinary would be required for their missionary "go ye out into all the world" mission to be fulfilled. e.g. when Paul was bitten by a poisonous snake, something had to happen to convince his audience. At THAT TIME, deadly creatures could not harm him. During the festival of Pentecost when the HS came down, something had to happen to convince Peter's audience. At that time, "speaking in tongues". When Peter met the cripple by the Temple. At that time, the sick (crippled) was healed. During the inquisitions of the RCC when some were told to drink poison to no avail (just so people would see AND believe) etc. In essence, DURING the fulfillment of the WORK CHRIST GAVE US, THESE SIGNS WOULD MANIFEST!

What you guys have with your "eba no yellow akpu with dodo hungry rice and baked beans monsters looking at me with no nose" kabbashing is malnultrition-delusions (some is over-bellyful delusions sha ). "Miracle working" is a gift for "SOME". So also is "Speaking in Tongues" a 'Gift of the Spirit' for some who, lets just say "can use it" at will for whatever purpose but NOT FOR ALL Christians. However, during evangelism and IF NEEDED as determined by the HS, all Christians CAN/WILL show any/all of these for the purpose of the Gospel.

So Bro, when next you start your kabbashing in church, tell yourself - "how daft we all are admiring the Emperor's new clothes" (hope that joke doesn't pass you by)

No be everybody must speak in tongues. But the potential is there and it'll happen if the conditions are right.

Sorry, its 2 questions and make one pronouncement

I called a couple of times NOW. It keeps saying "Disconnected. No answer" which likely means network problems. I will try again later and if need be, as late as 2AM (I apologise to CE members who believe Christ Chris must sleep. You, not me put his number here). If he would really like to speak to someone who has studied the Bible ONLY and will ask questions (unlike on pulpits where no-one asks), I can buy a line tomorrow and publish so you guys give him

This would really be nice if true. I would love him to answer just 1 question directly and make only 2 pronouncements publicly. If he can answer the question reasonably (no da si rough tactics) and make the pronouncements, I'll fight for him here.

Only problem I see is that if its him truly on the phone, with the fame he has and the number of worshippers, sorry acolytes, sorry followers he has in CE alone, there's almost no hope the phone will not be permanently jammed by calls. I hope this all is true anyway!

^ I have no problem with them living on "hope". It faileth NOT.

The post you quoted was just to alert Viaro to the reality of what these "children of God" are being MADE to believe. [size=4pt]now I've done it again and Viaro is on his way back to inform me its not force but a fair teaching. Image must be dancing at my mistake[/size]

Mad_Max:
You've lost your way and think you're in one of your 'Pay tithe or God will curse you' national association meetings. Ask for directions next time.

I want to join the "PTOGWCYNA". Where's Image? I need a form!

I pray this NL won't make me blow a gasket one day !

God's Word concerning curses  [Proverbs 26:2]

New International Version
Like a fluttering sparrow or a darting swallow, an undeserved curse does not come to rest.

English Standard Version
Like a sparrow in its flitting, like a swallow in its flying, a curse that is causeless does not alight.

King James Bible
As the bird by wandering, as the swallow by flying, so the curse causeless shall not come.

Douay-Rheims Bible
As a bird flying to other places, and a sparrow going here or there: so a curse uttered without cause shall come upon a man.

World English Bible
Like a fluttering sparrow, like a darting swallow, so the undeserved curse doesn't come to rest.

Wesley's Notes
26:2 By flying - Secures itself from the fowler. Not come - Upon the innocent person, but he shall escape from it like a bird.

IF THE CURSE DOESN'T HAVE A VALID CAUSE, NO WAY! IF IT HAS VALIDITY, QUICKLY GO AND BEG FORGIVENESS!

D-optimist:
I really don't know what is wrong with fellows in this forum, for some time now I've been silently going through the posts on this forum and I've observed that there are some people on this forum who are bent on saying just anything they like without thinking through. I wonder what was the poster's intention or what he wanted to get from his post.

For all I know, everything done in this life was initiated by some one, we are only mimicing the initiator of what ever we are doing today. I wonder if the poster doesn't celebrate or observe xmas and easter. These events were not recorded in the bible to be celebrated but we do observe them. I want to believe that if this new method adopted by RCCG for getting their tithes was initiated by a 'WHITE MAN' we all would have adopted it without any noise.

Praying for those paying tithe is just a matter of confirming or reminding God of his promises for tithe paying. It's just like praying for a sick person to get heal, not that God doesn't know that he/she is sick but as he said that we should ask and it shall be given, not that he doesn't know our needs. So praying specially for obedient children of God shouldn't be something provoking so far it has been commanded.

For those who disagree on tithe paying, I'm not sure they are Christians cos if they were to be Christians, not just by name but those that will want to know the truth and will be compelled to open the bible to get to know what God says about an issue raised in either church or by friends, they would have been able to get understanding of Malachi 3:8-12 which says,

"3:8
Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

3:9
Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

3:10
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

3:11
And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.

3:12
And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts."

As a matter of fact, paying tithe is not optional but a commandment, cos if it wasn't he wouldn't have liken it to robbery. On the other hand, paying your tithe is like having advantage over someone that doesn't cos like it is written that he will open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. So it's all left for you.

Also, if he was not talking about 10% of whatever you earn here including cash and yield, what else was he referring to here? Help me out.

I beseech you brethren to stop arguing on things that are not relevant but as much as you can try and think twice before commenting on public forum like Nairaland. If you don't seem to understand what is done in a particular place most especially in the Church of God, please find a way and ask your Pastor if you have one or a responsible Elderly person or pray to God to give your understanding not your imagination, I Tell you he will be ready to help you out if you ask in earnest.

I beg to rest my case here, THANK YOU

^^^ See above, VIARO, for a lesson on LAWS FOR CHRISTIANS.

"obedience" to "Commandments", mind you! And of course, an "advantage". Plus of course, the "way to get called BLESSED (most worthy intentions for a believer today)".

Of course, the final recourse is to the "almighty pastors/elders". Who of course, passed on the holy doctrines of xmas and easter!  As opposed to us, armed robbers who hate God and are making Him go hungry (aww, see how lean God has become due to nuclearboy starving Him  ).

Viaro, could I have helped the case I outlined above more? 

^^^ Forgive me Inesqor, but whist I too am happy swords have been sheathed (I hope), I think the argument between the "Titans" has served this thread well and readers will glean knowledge from the exchange

Where under God's Heaven is my good Friend "GUNNAZ". I never saw this story Yet according to Gunnaz, I am the one concocting every story against chrisT Embassy.

Sadly, the dude asking 200Million does not have ambition. He should have asked 5Billion. Now THAT would have made all the "defenders" shake cos chris would have taxed them big time for that. 200 Million is chicken change for him

^^^ And was it BEFORE or AFTER Jesus died for us that Paul said "Let God be true and ALL men liars"?

And if you are a liar, are you then the ONLY clean liar in God's Creation? Ah Sorry, I forgot - are you and pastor chris the ONLY clean liars God created (since chris comes before the entirety of creation in your understanding)?

@Viaro:

I have no doubt that at the forthcoming Olympics, you Viaro, can win all three Gold, Silver and Bronze medals at the "mental gymnastics" events for your intellect. Still, this is a puzzle to me remembering what I have seen you write here before on other topics.

You argue that cheating and doctrinal errors are wrong in christianity. But you argue for the most damning issue in christianity - the thing that seeks to commercialise Christs' teachings and make God out to be a land-lord who allows you continued tenancy BECAUSE you paid your rent and bought Him bushmeat your last visit to the village. You send "grace" out the window when you tell us a doctrine from the pits of hell is acceptable because you want no laws for Christians. Would you then support we kill since there are no binding laws on Christians? Why do I even ask seeing as the effect of our tithers has included the starvation to death of many just so they can say from the pulpit "God is good. Can't you see it? He has provided us air-conditioning in this monument to idiocy"! e.g. Adefarasin wants a 410 million Naira air-conditioning system.

Here on NL, you see people saying "few (if any) of Oyedepo's church members can afford to send their children to the school he built with their money". You see people saying "its private jet galore" whist members children are sent home from cheap school. I grew up in Lagos, friend. Have you seen the children coming out of the slums today? They will kill you for a piece of bread. They will break your car window to insist you give them money once its dark. We live in fear here once you have a good car whist you're enjoying your scholarship in the west telling us those innocent children who had their lives stripped from them and who were turned into animals are not partly victims of these rogues on the pulpits who have turned God's plan for societal relief into a self enrichment venture. Is the effect not worth considering especially when it passes (and ballons) from generation to generation. Or is it government alone that empowers society?

Those children had parents who believed God would bless them if they gave the "man of God". Seeing as the children only got hunger in return, the word "God" is a travesty to them and they prefer a knife or a gun. Many here have faced them and heard firsthand "ehn, you're praying to God? oya O, pastor, pray for us too but know something - that your God is greedy and I'll just give him some cash and he will forgive. And if he shows here as me dey vex, I go shoot am, e go cry". Funny? well, maybe to you safe in the west and telling us we don't know what we see.

But if the preaching of "tithes" AS IT IS FOUND here is Godly, God is not worth it! But I know God is worth it seeing as He warned us of them - "For they mouth empty boastful words (I AM GOD/CHRIST etc), and by appealing to the lustful desires (TO PROSPER) of sinful human nature, they entice people (NEW CHRISTIANS) who are just escaping from those who live in error (JUST LEFT THE UNREGENERATED LIFE). They promise them freedom (HEALTH, WEALTH, DOMINION), while they themselves are slaves of depravity (MONEY, MONEY AND MORE MONEY)"

This then, is what you don't seem to see you are supporting with your words.

I'd decided not to speak concerning this issue again on this thread. I'd also come to believe the only pro-tither on earth with a brain was Viaro. Sad to see Debosky has joined him. One thing I notice though - Gary made a point that you both have ignored in the attempts to turn this whole thing upside down.

Gary said

garyarnold:
viaro said, "the difference is that I don't think it either sides (between anti-tithing or pro-tithing arguments) should be made a Law for Christians. Let each one decide as he/she is led in their hearts."

Most protestant pastors don't teach "Let each one decide as he/she is led in their hearts."  THAT is the problem, Bro.  Pastors teach it wrong, and more people need to stand up to their pastor and correct him.  It's the teaching that tithing is a requirement in the NT that is so disturbing.  THAT, my friend, is why we need to STOP using the word tithing for giving.  IF pastors taught that tithing was voluntary, not required, and by not tithing you were not robbing God, I wouldn't have any problem with this whole topic.

By using the word tithing when you are giving, you now become part of the problem.

IF you, Viaro, know that IT IS AS YOU ARE LED IN YOUR HEART, why insist it is the Word "tithe" that must be used? Why THAT Word? Why not "Gifts". Why not "Support". Why the legalistic term that is being used to scare people. Do you remember what Jesus said was His duty? " To set the Captives free?" amongst others. Do you read what Joagbaje's milk teeth people say here that is purely opinionated and not backed by any scriptural sense? For these, it is "how can you say pastor is wrong"? Is that true, Viaro? Is pastor perfect? Is pastor saying "it is voluntary"? Is that why these "babies" come here and curse because pastor is being factual?

We all say GIVE. Then we again say GIVE. But you say aniti-tithers are stingy BECAUSE we say the word tithe is being used to convince people that they OWE IT AS AN OBLIGATION. How is that so hard to understand? Look at Gary's caveat (also bolded) that it wouldn't be a problem if the right teaching WHICH YOU SAY you advocate was what was being taught i.e. it is voluntary and not a law.

God will prevail, Viaro and I know you will in time seriously regret this thing you're doing, for you will see its effect firsthand one day. This is mainly a Nigerian forum - always remember that; and most everyone we speak of here operates here and ARE destroying people's lives telling them NOT to support poor or orphaned or widow but to bring all streams to the billionaires who build monuments to themselves and say "God is good" because they are thriving through the fear of others. Can you honestly read a thread like "pay debt or pay tithe" and see what a guy named Mantraa decided to use to show truth; yet insist this is a good thing? Its the usage that we condemn since it is not binding you pay tithe. What is binding is that you "give willingly and as led". Now, if you would contest that, let me know. If that is true then, why not say that rather than defend the indefensible simply because God gave you an intellect that is "tops". You're not fair.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BTW Viaro, could it be that statements by Gary such as "Viaro is confused" OR the thought that "Viaro is wrong" is the problem here?

Both Viaro and Noetic are strong willed and knowledgable characters. I do not think any two of us have the same outlook on every matter because we have varying experiences. Why then would any one not "try" to see the other's point. The only place where I have issues with anyone is where I see/sense/believe a motive that is self-serving or contrary to the interest of Christianity. Noetic is different. Viaro is different. WHICH of us is perfect? If none, why can't we all just get along and "listen" to the other side before the ego - thingy commences.

Me, my only wahala is Viaro being the credibility "prop" some use here. They take 95% of what he puts forward and adds a dash of error here and there. Satan has nothing on such also "trying to "BE" like the most high". No originality, just a mirror that distorts.

For those of us who believe we are believers', it might be worth it to show some humility and stop blanket declaring others to be wrong. IMO, none knows in FULL and the Bible supports that assertion!

@Joagbaje:

Once it is me writing, you take leave of your senses. Wetin I do you na? Na wa for you, pasitor.

you said

Joagbaje:
NuclearBoy,

You dont have the right to discredit another man's salvation. There are different callings. You know a christian by what he profess. If a man confess Jesus as his lord and master who are you to say he is unsaved.
Have you found out how RCCG  was founded?  are you aware it was an offshoot of C&S white garment. Maybe you should study on it.

1 Cor. 12:3
no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Haven't you forgotten something - I posted a caveat stating "I DO NOT SAY HE's FAKE". I just said the story doesn't show much of a testimony. How does that mean I said he is unsaved? How does it mean I'm discrediting him?

All this "W" worrying you na wah O. Maybe you should study on what "W" means too!

^^^ Tell you what? I like you. VERY VERY MUCH. NOT because you stopped but because I sincerely believe you get my point and are honest in your belief and trust. But the trust is wrong (being for man). And honestly, I'm not happy going to the dustbin for all these stuff over and over. Its the dunk effect it has when people keep defending man that makes it a card to play.

Man will ALWAYS disappoint us. No man is clean. God's Word says so.

@ Bolded:

Magical-like experiences!

Where is the Salvation experience?

Caveat: I'm not saying he is fake but the story above is not credible as a "Christian" testimony. Demons can be subdued by more powerful demons and satan works miracles to make himself out "an angel of light"

@Gunnaz:

I'd be much gladdened by a response to the above.

And where are my concoctions? Lawarence Agaba? Jeri Curls/perms on the black male "shepherd" when the Word of God tells EVEN Women to "clothe themselves with modesty"?  the thieves who just stole 60 million from your own church bank?  Your self-serving doctrine of "tithes, offerings and cash"?  The UBA manager?  The fact that you have your own unholy scriptures AKA ROR? All the stories about the "Healing School"?  ALL NA MY CONCOCTIONS ?

Ol'boy, I fit dey vex (I've spoken of this on other threads here) and atimes am too out-spoken which I admit is often a failing; but I'm not mistaken about your "Rabbi".

Your "esteemed master's" fruits, life, doctrines show him for what he is. And I never said members of CE are not in the body of Christ. SOME of them are but too many of them are in it for chris and not in it for CHRIST. A "good tree" would have corrected that!

As Aletheia has pointed out FROM SCRIPTURE (as usual and not er[b]ROR[/b]), Jesus "knew what was in man" and that "that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God."  Take the hint!

A Holy Kiss to you

Image,

I wonder what I should say to you that won't be misconstrued. Suffice it then to assert that I am a believer, honest enough to consider the other parties position and humble enough to admit wrong.

I doubt you can say same since its not likely you actually have an opinion yourself. Enjoy your days

^^^ NOW I get your point!

CONFUSION! Thats what I have in me thinking about your post - For I can remember a great deal of good stuff I learnt from pastors on the pulpit. Sincerely a great deal. And that is why I'm confused because your post makes sense for that reason. However, I also can think of quite a number of ridiculous stuff bandied from the same pulpits. A lot of that too. I can see the effect of the good in my life and I also think I see the effect of the bad in other lives especially younger christians. Not that I'm clean but mirrors cause distortion (even if just lateral) - I can't judge myself.

Maybe what worries me is that it gets worse as time goes on but in support of you, my spirit reminds me of Elijah being corrected that God had reserved 7, 000 others. in effect, if I wasn't and haven't been destroyed by the travesty on our pulpits, God is able (after keeping me) to keep His Children.

Maybe that why "the chaff and wheat grow up together". I wholely concur!

@femmy:

You and Mantraa have quite a sense of humor. I actually got angry anytime it wasn't one of you posting cos I wanted to see where your drama would end.

Sad to see it end so soon (you seem to have forced it to end).

But my bro, [1] you're not supposed to make oaths and then not keep them [2] if you have a gift even at the altar and remember "Mantraa" has something against you, Jesus said not to pay the gift to God TILL you settle the issue with Mantraa. Both issues can be studied in Matt 5.

Wouldn't mind you guys continuing!

Zikkyy:
Honestly I wanted Image123 to respond himself. Now you spoilt my fun Viaro. The man is certainly going to hide behind you when and if he responds to my post.  
I don’t know why you like to defend these people.

The man tithe/give because of the belief there will be a downpour of blessings.

You see Viaro, the reward is not in the act itself, but in living a good Christian life; unconditional love to your neighbor. Motive is very important here. Giving with the belief there is a reward for it lacks sincerity. It was done with a condition, a reward in mind and that’s very un-Christ-like. We should learn to give because of the joy we bring to others and to us, because of the love we have for our neighbours, because it pleases God, and not because of any reward. That’s some of the qualities that make us Christians Viaro. Now what I get here on NL when the issue of tithe and offering is being discussed is the reward associated with it. Reward for giving is a done deal; it is not even something to think about.

A focus on the reward for any action lacks sincerity. It's as simple as that.

Same problem I had. Viaro is CREDIBLE, known as straight-forward and CAN BE believed. So they use him as a prop to "support" themselves seeing as they have no credibility of their own

The MOTIVE I spoke of. Greed, gain, self-serving, not the Love of God or man

You're preaching to the choir, Zikky! Viaro knows this and supports it. Maybe its sympathy for the Oxen who he feels may be otherwise muzzled but these Oxen are rather ravening lions with an appetite for Naira. Why he so defends them, I wonder? Funny that there is not one of them that can present Scripture aside the regular Malachi and a self-righteous plea that pastors must be listened to being teachers/rabbis/masters/daddy GOs (the precise thing Jesus said to CALL NO MAN in Matt 23:. But since Viaro is knowledgable and credible, they hide behind him openly thanking him for his support

Again, you're preaching to the Choir but lets just say "GBAM"

On being "Christ-like", I won't hold my breath - someone will likely come tell us how it was the Greater Glory (of the here-after) to which Christ looked, that made Him give Himself as God's Sacrifice and so, Christ too was only seeking reward!

if you follow the succeeding posts, you'll realise twas a joke. My own "format" catch you sef

You point blank judge that "anyone who has a problem with 10% will have with more than 10%" AFTER reading us say its not the amount but the principle of scamming that we worry about.

Okay Viaro, we're tight-fisted and its because we do not want the Gospel spread that we say "give willingly but not under compulsion". Of course, its also because we want pastors to wear patched-thread clothing and walk from Lagos to Kaduna for sunday service that Zikky said "I can’t remember anybody telling you to stop giving".

But you would have the last word. Please have it.

Only pro-tithers want God's Work done We on our part, are God-haters (wikid pesins)

Viaro:

you've said ALL I asked for. The issue should not be allowed to foist "guilt" on anyone OR be forced on anyone.

That is the problem and you could read any of Image123's posts to see the subtle (and not so subtle) arm-twisting techniques I speak of

^^^ Great Great Great The "Bereans" who truly study are here!

Oya Joagbaje, come show your strong reasons

True talk. But then there are the "biggest boys" and me, I'm one of those. My own mansions are in heaven.

These ones seem to sense they'll be staying in my kennels out there so they claim their bigness here