₦airaland Forum

^^^ Everything we do either gives Christ a good name or a bad name. The Apostle Paul considered that and said ALL THINGS were lawful to him but not all expedient. For Christianity to be known as a scam is not a good reflection on the name of Christ.

That may not matter to you, friend but it may likely affect the decision of one/some/many men for Christ. Because of Naira?

Viaro:

Never said you didn't consider both sides. However, I sincerely don't see how even my not specifically saying you saw both should be offensive to you! FYI, I was trying to calm you guys both down. Except you'd like I consider noetic moronic which he definitely isn't.

And I do not know why you are so touchy today, Viaro. You speak as though I live inside some 10 home isolated village and my world is limited to that - Even had I never travelled to or had experience of the western world in my plus 4 decades, the internet shows me the Creflo Dollars of this world. Generalising was wrong (I admit) but I was trying to pass a point across not make a law.

Biblical doctrine is disparate from false teachings. Whist all cannot have my type of initial "bad" experience, I needs must look at the average and fear for the "young". What anyway, is wrong in God dispensing knowledge Himself? At least we know that those the Scripture says He taught personally were "tops" in doctrine. Such would include Moses and Jesus! How many of such do we know to have erred doctrinally?

Again Viaro, and I'm sad saying this (to you of all people never expecting you wouldn't understand), God witness I'm not judging your posts but trying to temper down responses from multiple posters each of whom I have respect for. Being uninvolved emotionally, I try to decipher (based on my own thoughts) what each is trying to say. There's no fighting here, just misunderstood words as Inesqor earlier said.

I cannot believe I'm reading the above from VIARO! Its like "I wish to deliberately misunderstand"

I say "these people are saying its obligatory" (NOW, IMAGE SAYS IT IS NECCESSARY). You go off on another tangent. I say "GIVE, GIVE and GIVE but do not say it is obligatory FOR Christians". You of all people, Viaro, say I'm denouncing "giving". The people you support are using YOU as a prop BECAUSE YOU ARE BELIEVABLE. This is simple - is your position their own? NO! So I pointed out "motive" - is their motive right, Viaro, when they say it is a Christian obligation, not to give, but to compulsorily tithe. AND then they include a curse for those who do not ACCORDING TO THEIR directions.

You are preaching to the choir - ME! I advocate what you are saying too. If you disagree with ANY of the following (which is what I say), please let me know

[1] Tithes (a tenth of income) are not an obligation or compulsory or binding BUT IT IS GOOD TO GIVE.
[2] The way they are preached today is unfair as it armtwists listeners to pay
[3] Giving is good and to be praised but not under compulsion

I am NOT arguing against you but am saying some here are using your knowledge to twist issues and using you as a prop.

@Viaro:

M O T I V E !  Do you, bro, sincerely believe the motive behind giving 10% WILLINGLY is the same as giving under compulsion BECAUSE someone ( a pastor) you WISH TO consider "more knowledgable" says its an "obligation"?

I notice you have refrained from saying the tithe is lawful AND binding on christians - what you say is that if an individual decision is made to give it, it is fine! Does that contradict the position you see us in? For I personally have no issues giving more than a tenth (whether anyone believes or not) BUT NOT as an obligation based on an "imaginary" Christian covenant with God that sees me paying expected dues and thus expecting "returns" in a buy/sell arrangement!

Please address the above directly. Image123 is point-blank advocating "compulsion". Same with Tonye-T and Joagbaje - They say it is obligatory. Thats the crux, not that garyarnold says "it puts you under the law". garyarnold's statement (which he has anyway retracted) is REACTIONARY. Lets deal with the issue at hand that he reacts to. Are "Tithes" as presented by these guys (obligatory, binding, bearing a curse) the position of the Bible?

Jesus Christ died so we are not under a curse. Is it tithes, bro, in your estimation, that return us under that curse? No ambiguity, just openess please. ARE THEY RIGHT THAT TITHES are OBLIGATORY, BINDING and CARRYING A CURSE FOR CHRISTIANS?  

Lord Viaro:

I was speaking tongue in cheek - I am appalled by the information this thread presnts and my previous post was a defense mechanism (denial) based on pretence of "sarcasm"? I support Kx totally!

@Kx:

Speak english, dude! Whist we get the idea of investment versus returns, you're speaking pure "pulpit kabbashing" when you bring in ceteris paribus! Why not "amazing catastophe"

We ALREADY know we're going to be scammed. Scam us in English please!

Enigma:
Ah Bros, thanks; let me know when you are headed this way. In fact, I too am headed to Naija later this year and if things work out well, I should be there (maybe on and off) for the best part of Nine months.

Yep, I really really like that Genesis 18:25; shall not the Judge of the whole earth do right. This and other passages as well as general human reasoning is why I cannot at the moment argue "universalism" beyond accepting it as a possibility.

I mean, what is [size=14pt]the "judgment" then of the wicked[/size]; of Hitler, of false teachers and Bible twisters, of Pol Pot etc; I have to admit that I have yet to resolve these issues for myself.

That Bro, is the "gist" of the matter! And the verse you quote is NOT general human reasoning so I feel it has "certainties".

The book of the preacher (Eccl) tells us "Dead flies spoil the prefumer's ointment, so also is MUCH wisdom destroyed by a LITTLE folly". Adam started the problem; some perfected it. We would wish to believe the sacrifice of Jesus is so effective that the worst of the worst is justified. But they (IMO), wouldn't be considered in the same light as those seeking true redress.

But then, I remain fallible and unknowing so I express not fact but just opinion. Maybe the Atheists and Satanists of this world would be first in line for justification since the prodigal son got the fattened calf though they remained unrepentant!.

Get my point?

^^^ As always, Enigma, Brilliant thoughts and if you wouldn't mind, whenever I'm in the UK, I'd love to put a face behind the "Enigma" tag (considering visiting Jos cos of Aletheia too but ehmmm, cutlasses don't agree with me  ).

BUT I will respond with just this - "Shall not the Judge of the whole earth do right?" How do you do right when you consider what Hitler did to 6 million people and cancel that by justifying him? I know you are aware of the experiments of his "doctor of death", his belief in the "master race" and his aversion to black "men who were closer to monkeys than any other species".

Its laudable to think in terms of God as a loving father but the Father is NOT a slobering senile  sitting up there as an all-forgiving "great grand father" who forgives all things and is told by His grand children that He's spoiling His great grand children.

We know in part but there are Scriptural references and real life experience that prove God can "punish", "refine" AND "correct". Else, my mosty esteemed bro, CE etc can do whatever at liberty knowing there is no reckoning.

Are you a Christian or a Jew?

We're talking of tithes and here you start quoting the law as it relates to redeeming firstborns. Do you know we are under the New Testament at all and that ALL are members of a Holy Priesthood, a Peculiar People? You are still redeeming children after birth? Where do you do your burnt offerings please cos I'd like to see that too.

I wonder if it would be amiss to ask if you smoke and what you currently are using?

When last did you read your Bible?

You're either in denial or a stooge-name registered to give the impression there's support for robbery. I'm not impressed.

And the following is nonsense. demonic doctrine

prettyeyes:
Nuclearboy - Using several scripture is not the deal but understanding the one u have read is the important thing. R u a Christain? if u are then u most understand the role and importance of a PASTOR in your life as a CHRISTIAN. Eph 4:11- 12 tells u the role of a pastor in your life. Now, if a Pator is a liar God will not give us such becos of His love for us. " , Pastors for the perfection of the saints for THE WORK OF THE MINISTRY, for THE EDIFYING OF THE BODY OF CHRIST".
God was not talking to the priest in Malachi 3, He was talking to those who r robbing him by not paying their tithes. Now, God will not call a man a thief if the person was not owing him and refusing to pay the tithe. Again God wouldt have used the word PAY if it is a freewill offering. there are different types of giving in the bible and when God was talking about this offerings in the bible He NEVER used the word PAY He used the word GIVE. Search the scriptures

^^^ Please tell me - what churches have you come across me, Aletheia, Enigma, TV01 etc defending? Have you noticed that what we usually stand against is doctrinal errors across board i.e. not based on which church its coming from? OR is it just Christ Embassy we speak of? Have you noticed too we ALWAYS bring scriptural backing for our position whist the other side prefer to bring "you're attackers, you're spoilers, pastor is great, touch not my anointed, you have milk-teeth, etc"?

I think the duty of a Christian is to support CHRISTIANITY and the Word of God AT ANY COST, not support your local church head. What happens, bro, if a shock comes and you leave that church; do you cancel all you said before in its support? Do you get my point? I always try to imagine how followers of Paul Crouch felt after they found he gave over four hundred thousand dollars of their money to his homosexual lover. Or how they felt when the gay lover came back asking for ten MILLION Dollars more? Or how Jimmy Swarggarts' congregation did when they found that whist he was calling other preachers names, he too was seeing prostitutes regularly. Humans can and will fail. What then?

The people I mention above are not perfect. All humans have opinions which often can be wrong but I don't know where you can fault believers for supporting Christ. We all make mistakes but we acknowledge such. They however, do not agree their pastor is fallible. And sincerely, I think the attacks come atimes because people want to bring them back to earth. Its like pouring cold water on a drunk in hopes it will clear his head.

I'm not one to keep quiet when I see wrong, my brother. I've tried over the young woman who of course denies what everyone sees clearly when you try to counsel. I'm not perfect too so I've learnt to ignore

@Uktomi:

I don't get your point in the post above about your suprise at my post. I believe biomes2001 is wrong and my response was to find support from scripture for my position and present it to him as logically as I know how. That was my approach in the other thread too. My rebuke of these chaps here was not meant to insult but to address and probably awaken them to the seeming cultish idea of defending CE, not christianity. I find it strange that a christian cares not for God's Name but highly esteems his pastors name or that of his church. One starts to wonder which is being worshipped.

@Gunnaz:

Much as I want to respect the head on your shoulders, I find it reprehensible that you believe a Christian should be "church" specific! Church not Christ? Sad and that is a travesty on all believers. However, I am not too suprised - your background announces you. Which is the only thing I keep saying I have against your CE - its not about God OR Christ OR the Holy Spirit OR the Bible OR Salvation etc. Its about Chris Oyakilome. I am a member of Christ's body whist seemingly you guys revel in being members of chris's body.

My Church is the Church of Jesus Christ. Its members are ALL TRUE believers. We are ALL brothers and call NO man Father, Master, Teacher or Rabbi as Jesus told us in Matt 23: verse 8. Our only teacher is THE CHRIST Himself through the Holy Spirit (not the spirit that goes about saying "egusi eba eba eba rice with meat and cornflakes" yet says its kabbashing). Our leading comes from God's HOLY self, not self appointed teachers whose revealed fruit are thieves who bring all to them, love peddlers, fraudsters, people looking for money, money and more money at any cost and readers, not of the Scripture, but of human commentaries. We do not revel that we have a bad name but keep making money and spreading (weeds grow faster than fruit anyway) but try to balance truth with work.

I think both sides are TOTALLY RIGHT in this - you can "feed" with knowledge AND you can also, as noetic says, feed with "eba" and egusi soup, which IMO too would likely be more welcome today.

Where I think Noetic's concern (and mine too) is the quality of the supposed "teachers" out there. Viaro, would you be willing to name ONE "MOG" that you'd trust your child's life to in the manner Jesus left His flock to Peter? If NO, then wouldn't you agree with Noetic that the Holy Spirit would be a better teacher? Way I see it, a call to put "children" under what is "mostly" available today would be like Jesus handing His flock to the Pharisees.

I think thats why noetic is averse to the idea

toba:
I love your courage&that of viaro. U guys really give me joy,when u stand your ground in defence of your belief. [size=18pt]The mumu[/size] at one point admitted your intellectual capability when u pushed him beyond limit.

perfect description

No, my brother, it wasn't futile. NOW he knows there are people who will go the hog with him in his tirades and that he actually has little ammo for such.

When do we get someone who knows how to laugh in mandarin?

Answers to the questions above

1.One.
2. Moses. In Malachi, God was speaking and simply reiterated the commands in the Law.
3. It was kept in the local town. Four classes of people SHARED IT - Aliens, Orphans, Widows and the local Levites. They SHARED it!
4. Year one, two, four and five were taken to the designated place (eventually Jerusalem). Year three and six - see question 3 answer. Year seven - see below.
5. There wasn’t one. There was not one on year fifty (Year of Jubilee) either.
6. He gave him 10% of the choicest spoils of a bunch of stuff he had no intention of keeping anyway. He gave nothing of his own possessions.
7. Yes. Those Levites not of Aaron’s family gave a tithe of the tithe they received. They gave it to the priests of Aaron’s family.
8. None. The tithe was never money.
9. The tithe of year one, two, four and five was shared by the tither with the Levite in a celebratory meal when the tithe was given. What was left over stayed with the Levite. In year three and six, the tither deposited the whole amount in the local town without partaking of any of it.
10. There was no “group” to give it to of which we know. If the testee simply says, “God,” go ahead and give him/her credit. The testee is still going to flunk.
11. God had to be with him, keep him on his journey, give him food to eat, give him garments to wear, and return him safely to his father’s house. At that point, God would be his God. The tenth came (we assume but not sure) twenty years later. It was a vow fulfillment.
12. After the Bill of Rights was adopted in the United States.
13. American Theologians in the Higher Criticism of Systematic Theology.
14. The loss of the church’s ability to tax citizens (The First Amendment in the Bill of Rights) caused a financial crisis in the church. That led to this “rediscovery.”
15. No. Family obligations are number one. There is no tithe for Christians anyway.
16. There aren’t any. Christians are not Jews under Law.
17. He didn’t, because there isn’t one.
18. They didn’t, because there isn’t one.
19. It was saved - probably at home by each contributor.
20. There is no such thing as a parachurch ministry, and there is no tithe for the Christian either. All the assumptions in this question are nonsense.
21. Deuteronomy.
22. God was talking to the "priests" of Israel. From Mal 1:6, God keeps saying, "o ye priests" and making sure till 3:3 that He was talking to them ONLY.

50% answered correctly shows uncommon knowledge but is that good enough for knowledge of God' Will over a matter? Will you give 10% of your gross income each week - for life - based on half being right? Go ahead if you want.

Please give (WILLINGLY) as much as 90% or even 100% if led by the Holy Spirit inside you. But not as a "law" or "obligation"

Jenwitemi says what the Bible says is wrong and offers a contrary opinion that God is ALL of existence and nothing else actually exists. Sir, could you please let us know your source for that statement? And for your certainty of our pollution and contamination etc

@FEMMY:

What if I told you the average pastor cannot answer it anymore than you can - please try me and pass it across to your pastor. By the time anyone studies to find himself approved as the Bible says and can answer ANY 75% of those questions, I'd like to see them argue for tithing in Christianity. It would be fantastic if you could study so you know the truth to prove me a liar.

By the way, I support that you give willingly and copiusly to the Church of Christ. I just do not feel it is right to lie and misquote Scripture to armtwist people to "pay" an obligatory tithe.

noetic16:
what is this teaching that we are talking about? what EXACTLY are u teaching new believers?
Are u teaching them to cover their hair or to leave it open? wear trousers as females or wear skirts? pay tithes or not to pay? sow seeds or not to sow? worship on saturday or on sunday? subscribe to catholism or pentecostalism?

what EXACTLY are u bent on teaching new converts? which one of the above relates to the core teachings of JC?

[size=13pt]TITHES[/size] and [size=13pt]THAT YOU MUST NEVER QUESTION MOGs[/size] and [size=13pt]THAT THEY ARE GOD'S HIGH PRIESTS[/size] plus the classic [size=13pt]"TOUCH NOT MY ANOINTED WHICH MEANS PASTORS"[/size]

@Prettyeyes:

Who was God talking to in Malachi 3? hint - read the entire book of Malachi. You will find it was the priests (the same people you're supporting now) that God was calling thieves. But please don't believe me - read it for yourself

garyarnold:
Those against the tithe continually give scripture.  Those who believe in tithing keep giving opinions.

IS IT THAT HARD TO OPEN A BIBLE AND FIND SCRIPTURE TO BACK UP YOUR COMMENTS?

The above is the "meat" of the matter. Imagine the poster above asking if it could be possible the pastor is wrong? These are people who hear of Israels Idolatry in the Wilderness and wonder aloud why they did not believe God with all the manifestations. Yet they are much more idolatrous worshipping their pastors. Is it not the Bible that says "all men ARE liars" and that "none, not one, did He find righteous"? Is it not Jesus Himself who said "call no man teacher, call no man Rabbi, call no man Master; for you all are same and have only one teacher - the Christ"? Wasn't it so that EACH OF US COULD BE LED INDIVIDUALLY TO TRUTH DIRECTLY BY GOD HIMSELF that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit? So when you see someone saying "pastor cannot be wrong" yet having NOT ONE single Biblical backing except the misused and misunderstood Malachi, have you not seen idolatry?

And the false teachers love it - their purses are filled, they have worshipping acolytes who are happily deluded and they get the best of everything.

But Gods' day is coming when Jesus will say to some "Get away from me, you workers of iniquity. The acolytes will probably wish to stone Christ then

@Kunle:

While you freely admit that you don't know, yet you know that some have missed it. Your posts on this forum also show condemnation for the mis-interpreters of God's Word (especially concerning tithes ). Would you then find it logical that scammer/scammed and truly righteous end up together?

I think ttalks has concluded the issue by admitting that the Lake of fire exists. Its purpose, duration and tenants are the issue ought to be discussed here.

@jenwitemi:

You seem to have misconstrued me as insulting you. I wasn't. What I meant was simply that it is written there (not metaphorically) as a final resting place for some (say, satan, at least). That makes it literal and REAL. So saying it is not real seems "unreal" for want of another word. And the afterlife is not the only reason for Christianity - many find the life "on this side" very fulfilling!

Please, how do we get past this battle of Lords?

Bosom 3:14 actually sounds nice

feemy:

Are you honestly in search of the truth about tithing or you just (like most NLers) want an argument? I ask because we can put together a short writeup that I would sincerely wish you read and take up with your pastor - lets see if he can answers the questions or if he will "da si rough".

As a teaser, someone posted something here a few days back. Let me put down a short excerpt from it and beg you to answer these few questions. Your answers will tell you just how much you know about "tithing"

The Tithe Test
1. How many Bible authors wrote commands about the tithe - its purpose, amount and procedures?
2. Who are they?
3. What was done with the third and sixth year tithe? Who had access to it?
4. Can you explain the “tithe cycle” of the Israelites?
5. What was done with the tithe every seventh year?
6. Explain Abram’s tithe. What did Abram give Melchizedek?
7. Did any of the Levites tithe? If so, to whom and how much?
8. How much money did the tithers give to the Levitical Priests?
9. In the “to the Levites” tithing years, did all the tithe go to the Levites?
10. What group did Jacob give his tenth to?
11. What were the conditions God must meet before Jacob would give that tenth?
12. When was the tithe “rediscovered?”
13. Who is credited with that “rediscovery?”
14. What was the catalyst for that “rediscovery?”
15. Is tithing the number one responsibility for the Christian and his/her money?
16. What kind of curse should the Christian expect for failing to tithe (Mal 3:7-9)?
17. Where did Jesus tell Christians to bring their tithe?
18. Where did Paul, or the other New Testament writers, tell Christians to bring the tithe?
19. When the Corinthians, and others, were making their collection for the saints, what was done with that collection before Paul and company took it to Judea?
20. Can the tithe be given to parachurch ministries?
21. What book of the Bible contains details of the law of tithing?
22. Who was God talking to in Malachi? (you'll need to read from Chapter 1, verse 6 to know this)

Sincerely, I would be most glad if your pastor can help you answer these!

THEN WE'LL TALK since you'll suddenly know so much more than now.

You're not making sense here Bro and God knows there is NO insult in that. None of us wrote the Bible - we're just discussing what it says. Seems you would prefer we all gang up against God and tell Him to go jump cos we want to support ourselves; that so?

What the Word says is sinners go to Hell, whether we like it or not; whether we're messed up or not; whether we plan to burn or not!

@Jenwitemi:

Sorry but I disagree with you. Death is a state where you know not much (if anything). Would you then state that after you die, (even if metaphorically), your wahala is what has happened to your earthly possessions? For if you say "IN HIS MIND", that supposes his mind is still conscoiuos of the wealth he left behind and what happens/happened to it.

Remember the context was in respect to a "passed away" individual

^^^ The point of Jenwitemi is What?

There should be no punishment? The Bible is wrong saying the rich man was in torment? What?

Draw out truth and tell us there is death (final and complete) in hell-fire but don't tell us that the Apostle Paul and a satanist will end up having the same fate because Christ came to save the world. Reason ridicules your assertion, bro

^^ Great points, Bro. Where my disagreement comes is obvious from what I tried to communicate to Bishop Tudor earlier. I "know" because it happened to me. The "establishment" tries to get you to "conform". Sadly, most ministries today are self-serving extensions of their founders so the idea is for you to conform to the ideas of a man. Rather than that, I prefer to trust God to "teach" rightly.

Oftentimes (in my experience) I see people "seemingly" walk away and "seemingly" backtrack/backslide/"fall in error"/etc in the early stages of their Christian walk. Too often, I have seen these same people RETURN years later as believers of such strength that it scares me;, that I am wont to believe this was a walk/"falling away" designed by God. Our limitations do not allow us wait to see where an issue will end before we judge it/them and that is why I am all for individual walks - God has it easy leading you the way HE wants you to go rather than the regular "start to bleat when I say so" modus we see in ministries today

ttalks:

Please go through the article again comparing the author's "interpretations" to what scripture says. Olaadegbu points out one brilliant issue - the rich man who found himself in hell! Whist you could argue that hell is a place of "death" and possible not everlasting (for man), you cannot say "man will be purged of his errors" then transferred to Heaven EXCEPT you are reading the Quran where you burn till angels can't recognise you then are transferred to the land of virgins and ogogoro to start sinning again. In fact, your case is worse since they believe you have to accept Allah to get the foregoing whist in your case, everyone is acceptable (Atheist, Christian, Muslim, whatever).

This one time, you agreed too fast.

mmPMs?

Viaro, I beg you not to make me blow a gasket so early in the week!

When you say individualism though, I get the idea that you forget such as Moses, Elijah and Jesus Himself were accused of such. Truth is that there will be errors in individual understandings but these are incomparable to "institutionalized" congregational errors. Where one afflicts an individual, imagine error accepted as truth in a congregation as large as RCCG and its far reaching effect.