₦airaland Forum

I used to have this friend who seemed very blessed. Only thing was each time he seemed to suddenly come into a lot of money, the money seemed to come whist he was on a sick (really really sick) bed. However, once the money had "arrived", he became better and then went off to purchase the latest vehicle or some other serious toy or combination of such like. And he had some serious toys!

We used to drink together (very heavily, I ought add) and one day, we came around to the issue of his hospital then windfall issue. After extensive wahala put to him by myself, he showed me a calabash with some rather smelly gory looking stuff in it. Apparently, he licked some of the vile looking stuff once every so many days (41 or 42 days, can't remember) and the following day, killed a goat which he could not see till slaughtered by those he sent to buy it. The idea was that the "spirits/powers" "influenced" business to come his way. Only problem was, according to him, he had noticed he was having issues getting erections starting from his 1st hospital trip following his "initiation?" Months later, and in my presence, he poured almost a gallon of pms into and over the calabash and set it alight stating it had totally quelled his manhood. Imagine my absolute suprise when 6 weeks later, he was dead broke. And I'm talking of losses running into over 40 million that I could see. Cars he bought had accidents (I'm talking brand-new landcruiser and SL mercedes) , 1 car was stopped and "discovered" to have been a stolen car he bought innocently (though police still took him to the cleaners over that), NDLEA said he was suspected of dealing in drugs (and again took him to the cleaners), a neighbor complained of strange noises coming from his place and he was thrown out by a military landlord with some major damage to health and property, a serious duplex burnt to the ground with supposedly close to 4M cash inside and yet another one was claimed to have been sold to him by a "fake" owner etc. 6 weeks! I have never seen such a laundry list of woes befall a human talkless of in the stated period.

But according to him, he regained use of his manhood . Sadly though, he died not too long afterward in a vehicle accident.

This experience comes to mind as I remember him saying he had to be a man when his "mix" was made because there was the use of human stuff in it. Could it be that nollywood hears of such things but not knowing that it is "influence peddling" like MyJoe would say, portray such as direct conversion from flesh to cash, usually after calling a name three times? The case above had too many strange issues to be explainable logically to me even to the death as yorubas would usually say such people sold out to "Ogun", the god of Iron, and so die either in vehicle crashes or in fire accidents (basically violently)

But direct conversion? That I would like to see

@toneyb:

mind yourself o. What do you mean trees cannot breathe or chairs sing? . Get a very fat person preferably with the proverbial oversized back-yard to sit on a chair and listen to it creak, strain and burst forth into chorus "my belle O, my head O".

For the tree, just pour petrol and listen to it breathing heavily as it sighs, crackling heavily into death.

Why don't you guys just go back to your islamic section and stay there? Its obvious you have no identity except in relation to christianity - if you do, then go away and stop saying the same things over and over! Intelligent threads by thinking people had started to become the norm here

Don't stop now please. And InesQor, please answer Jagunlabi's question.

Great ideas here and very thought provoking for them with brains to think

This is not a KO but a bullet between the eyes. Where you wan make e find dat kin information nah? No be fashion him dey do? I beg O!

fashion na ni O!

It comes to mind that Moses informed Pharaoh before the fact. How would you explain that and his knowledge of the order of the plagues before they occured?

MOD is not good enough. Transfer NL ownership to Jesoul

@Jesoul:

when it happens and you're in your kingdom, remember I asked first

Don't hold your breath, Enigma. Toneyb is driving recklessly on his way to inform you that those scientists must have been bribed by christians or are actually christians masquerading as scientists

MyJoe:

I agree with you more than you know. I guess I do not know how to present my case is the problem. Maybe I ought go back to the point where I said "Dispose of the words and hold the message and then its inerrant".

^^^ Seems you've interpreted me me past my beliefs. I have not argued science into the Bible, and infact have here openly spoken against someone I felt was forcing things into it. I just suggested that much of what it says that CANNOT be interpreted by science are not neccessarily wrong. Nostradamus - please explain by science. Ever watched "Pyschic detectives" on Crime and Investigation? A new born child carrying its own twin! Please explain with science. There are things that do not belong in science and you have been very honest in the past stating knowledge that the questions asked three thousand years ago are not what we ask today.

The issue of the hare can be seen from differing perspectives - thats all; one way is that Nostradamus said "Hister" and meant "Hitler". Would you then say he was wrong because of the mistake in the letter? Another way is what I suggested which e36991 "provided" evidence for - that hares then were not neccessarily what they are now or included other categories. This ought even be easy for you to accept, since you subscribe to evolution, abi only hares could not evolve, seeing as that would support the Bible? See? its all interpretation. And your wild cards (walking on water etc) go outside of the realm of science and thus we cannot look to that discipline for answers or denial. For what basis would science use?

BTW you, Krayola, have a history of being scrupulously fair here on NL (and indeed argue both sides often) so its not like I personally believe you're looking for fault with the Bible. In this case, I think you're just unconciously seeking a KO.  

And I concede your point to you. Many religionists profess things that make me, a believer, want to give them a flying german suplex.  At least we know that when we cry, we still see

@Krayola:

The decisions you make are based on your belief that most, if not all, of these choices you made, are right - thats interpretation, aint' it? Now suppose a writing was to say "black men are animals". Could that be interpreted as right by anyone considering the word "men" in the phrase? Thats what I talk of. Some interpretations are obviously false - some require more thought. What we have in this instance requires more thought and is based on a decision "to find fault"!

^^^ Thanks for the correction

I think many also have a "fatherless" complex and use these men as surrogate dads

^^^ Yep, interesting stuff

@Krayola:

Bro, all this your turenchi doesn't find me at home and though I accept your drop-kick, you deserve a KO. here it is

I wrote earlier that we are not wrong. Neither are we "wickedly deceptive", just trusting! InesQor finds reason to believe hares do something akin to chewing the cud. Krayola had reason to believe that it SHOULD be interpreted another way. Each believes based on a decision they made TO do so. Who is wrong? I put it to you that every Christian has enough justification YET every non-christian ALSO has enough justification. Why? Both positions are based on interpretation and that is an individual thing. We each think and judge as individuals and that is the function of the self - just as no one can think for me, so can no one intepret for me except I join a herd (sad that the first herd example coming to mind is in christianity).

"bring up the cud" reminds me of my debate with DeepSight when he said virgin was Betula and I said Almah (directly translated as "young woman" is used 7 times in the OT and each time, the context referred to virgins. Can you state unequivocally that such like couldn't happen in this case too.

BTW, which kind level be dis wey yoruba people dey intepret Aramaic etc. na wawa!

e36991:
@MyJoe

It is Lev 11:6 and not Lev 11:16

[size=14pt]About the Hare[/size]

The European Hare or Brown Hare (Lepus europaeus) is a species of hare native to northern, central, and western Europe and western Asia.

It is a mammal adapted to temperate open country. It is related to the similarly appearing rabbit, which is in the same family but a different genus. It breeds on the ground rather than in a burrow and relies on speed to escape.

It is larger, longer-eared, and longer-legged than a rabbit. It has a body size of 50-70 cm and a tail length of 7-11 cm. The weight for a full-grown adult ranges from 2.5 to 6.5 kg. It can run at speeds of up to 72 km/h (45 mi/h). It is strictly herbivorous. [size=14pt]It eats grasses and herbs during the summer months but changes to[/size] feeding on twigs, bark, and the buds of young trees in winter, making it a pest to orchard farmers.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/species/European_Hare#p003b0qr

Wow! Wow! Double-Wow! See what I said - we jump to conclusions once its the Bible and others, on the basis of these feet in the mouth manouvers, start to damn it themselves! Wow Wow!

Thanks, e36991!

@joe4christ:

People are judging him? Well how's this -

Did you ever read the Bible? Do you know you're not supposed to follow idolatry? When you make graven images of God like with the picture included in your message above, do you realise that is idolatry? Now telling you this - am I judging you or simply reminding you what the Bible says?

Better pick up a copy of the Word and read rather than reading daily prayer guides.

MyJoe:
I think there is tangible evidence.
Yes. And we go on with lines like “the human imagination is very powerful”. It is. Having unshakable belief in something can spin off all sorts of illusions and life-like experiences. Five people can see one thing and report it differently. I am not saying that is the case with ALL religious experiences, (I don’t know it is), but just offering you the other possibility – one that has been widely observed.
I think your thoughts here are based on the premise that I have a problem with faith. I don’t. Take the virgin birth mentioned by JeSoul for instance. I don’t believe it, but I realize that the fact I don’t believe something does not mean it is not true. For an incredible thing like that, the problem is fundamental – the Bible itself, since that is the book that reports the virgin birth. For me, therefore, the virgin birth cannot be treated in isolation. Once you accept the Bible, you accept it, at least, you are expected to. That is why I insist we can leave that unverifiable bit and take a moment aside to look at that which can be verified.

Your challenge is, IMO, not very useful because there are a lot of statement/understanding/idea in the Bible that are obviously wrong, but if I present them, then what? Most of them are overflogged and anything can be rationalized away!

For example I can remind you there is a guy in the Bible whose father died at 40 and he himself became king at forty-two – meaning he was two years older than his father!
Or that that story about 500,000 Israelites being killed in a single battle simply beggars imagination as that has never happened in a single battle even in WWII when we had sophisticated weaponry and atom bomb was used at a point, not to talk of the other place where 1,200,000 Jewish men were mobilized in a single battle!

Personally, my biggest concern about the Bible is its inconsistency with the nature of Supreme God. In the Bible we see God involving himself in wanton killings, deceiving people in order to destroy them, (2Th 2:11-12), giving out bad laws (Ez 20:25), deceiving the prophets (Jer 20:7, Ez 14:9), etc. In related developments, the Bible's history has been shown to be unreliable. While it posses remarkable scientific accuracy in several places, it falls flat in several others, for in the Bible, for instance, we are told that the hare is a cud-chewing animal (Lev 11:16).

And perhaps anyone has an explanation for the prophecy by Jesus that those listening to him would not all die before his return? (Matt 16:28, Mark 9:1, Luke 9:27)

The sum of what I have learnt about the Bible, much of which has been discussed in this thread, is sufficient for me to believe that I need to reckon with more than the Bible in my efforts to make sense of things. When you look at the Bible in total, without faith playing a role, it just does not add up as being infallible. As I stated earlier, I agree with you fully on the matter of perspectives. But what about the person without a worldview to defend? I have no shadow of doubt the evidence would weigh against an inerrant Bible for anyone who had not been previously introduced to religion.
I think honesty is basic, and not an achievement worth celebrating. A man who has lost it has nothing to live for except work hard to cultivate it.

@MyJoe:

Human imagination? You would explain Nostradamus looking 500 years into the future with "his imagination"? Come on Bro, lets not move away from our keyboards and join Arthur and the Knights of the roundtable.

And why cannot a guy become King at 42 when his father died at 40 - do you have proof that he became king the day after his dad passed? Your half mill and 1.2Mill puzzle me - unlikely DOES NOT MEAN impossible, does it?

And now I come to the issue of God's Nature - why do people feel they ought to be able to define God or His Character? Once, Moses asked Him about Himself and His response was "I AM THAT I AM". You speak of nature - are you a murderer? Did you ever swat a fly or use insecticide? What court did those cockroaches appeal to for recompense - did you create them? Yet Bro, they had no recourse but to die and that ended the matter. Why is it that when God acts, we decide to judge - what criteria are you using, please and who's your advocate and who's the judge? The intelligence you have makes you feel you've a case against who??

At risk of being accused of fitting my case to the evidence, can anyone prove that the "hare" of Biblical times is what we call the hare today? I have asked on this forum that if the entire human race lived in Asia at the time of the flood, would they have been wrong to say the flood covered the whole world? What was the world to them? was it not Asia? We agree that not everything fits our sensory understanding but you ought accept that in lieu of absolute 100% undisputable uncontestable proof or rather until proved guilty, the defendant is considered innocent - abi the Bible needs must be castigated at all costs?

You know, I wondered about this statement of Jesus that you mentioned - I'm still looking for an answer to it. But then, so are you

Jesus IS Lord, but He worked as a Carpenter and paid His way

Peter was called the Rock by the Master Himself but we know he was a fisherman and sustained himself by his work

Paul wrote most of the NT and boasted in his work that he didn't take anything from anyone but paid his way. He made tents for a living.

Your "living legend" - what does he do for a living? Sure He believes, don't YOU? Why are you all so dedicated towards idolatry? Why not follow the Bible's Word and look onto Jesus, the author and finisher of faith? Why hasn't your legend's faith BTW, translated into blessings for the majority who attend his church and cannot pay the fees charged at his university for their wards and children?

You just sound like a broken depraved idiotic record chanting "I love him I love him, jesus is too far so its oyedepo I love" over and over.

interesting to see that "jesus" has joined us here

@Zodiac61:

What is an objective truth? Is it, BTW, an objective fallacy that you are "Zodiac61" to me yet not so to your parents who didn't name you thus at birth? Or that someone who knew you by another tag on campus says "No, his name is not Osahon but JohnBull" since that was what you answered then? Which of us is wrong? And why is it when the Bible says what we accept in daily life that we think of crucifixion?

For Christians, the start point is Jesus! That is the truth WHICH IS TRUE. After that, you have understanding, age, personal experience and the individual's "self" coming into a mix that determines their "own" belief system. We may not be totally right; in fact, none is, but we walk towards getting as close to it as possible. The foundation we have allows us trust (should be with our eyes open) and sincerely, the real problems are just two [1] over-zealousness - where we stick our feet (to the knee) in our throats  and "Krayola" has the distinction of noticing it and [2] ignorance/not knowing enough - where we jump without looking and face a more than worthy opponent who is out for blood

@OP:

Serious people discuss God, the Lord Jesus, the HS, the Holy Bible and here you are attempting deify a human like you. Did you ever consider the possibility that YOU may possess greater INNATE anointing from God than this object of your adoration?

@OP:

What I've been searching for on the market is a mobile franchise for heaven (MFH). I'd really love to be given sole distributorship for such - if you have this product, please contact me

@Jesoul:

Friday, ehn? Lets help you perform your litigation - do your ablutions, face Mecca, kneel down and do every surat 7ce between now and tomorrow dawn - that'll show you devil.  

The Virgin birth is an anomaly just as creation and evolution are anomalies. Prove either of these "scientifically" i.e. wth evidence of it being repeatable and observable and I'll send you proof of the virgin birth.  

BTW, I never get experience reach to call myself your twin. As we say, no matter how fast the hells run, they'll always find the toes out in front. Salutee!

I get your point, MyJoe. I think where there is an issue is in the defining of the word "Faith".

So what is faith? Is it just belief in anything I feel like believing in? Or is it something realistic? Can my belief that you, MyJoe, are "God", be called faith? Grammatically, it is evidence of things not yet seen (WHICH THOUGH EXIST AND ARE TRUE!). The part in caps is the Christian part and our evidence is our problem - yet its real!

Now, my "faith" that you are "MyJoe", whatever that is, is true, BECAUSE YOU ARE! The problem arises when I try to prove that "faith" to anyone since it is not supported by tangible evidence. We find people having individual "personal" experiences which only they understand - so they believe such but those who have not had such experiences find them strange, ridiculous, funny etc. Its like Nostradamus seeing "ships" as floating iron cities or having visions of a mass murderer named "Hister". Today, it makes sense to us with benefit of hindsight. How did it look to those who listened to him then? Insane? Strange? Was he wrong? That is a "type" of our situation today i.e. those who know what they follow and are in it for truth rather than those who build a career off it or find the "semblance" covers their personal "issues", real or imagined.

When reality points to a statement/understanding/idea being obviously wrong but we find people believing in it, we know thats not faith but delusion. Show me delusion in the Bible by proving the opposite of its claims and bro, I'll  be on your side like white on ice!

BTW, I give you kudos, for in all your posts, I see intelligent sincerity rather than the easy but myopic ridicule most use to cover their ignorance or fear that maybe, they are wrong. I would give same to Krayola but the fact he hasn't allowed me drop kick him has me miffed at his black canadian bottom  

@MyJoe:

I doubt you got the gist of what Jesoul said else how you can disagree with it beats me. Basically, she says "it is logical for a Christian to read what he/she reads into the Bible". However and at the same time, it is also reasonable what an atheist/unbeliever sees in it. IMO, the idea is that both come with a different agenda and thus find different truths in the Word.

Sincerely (and I think many "so called" Christians will castigate me for this) I believe that being on "this" side compels that one considers the evidence with a bit of bias which helps justify much of what is in print. That however, is not a bad thing as each of us ALWAYS chooses themselves over others and seen from this point of view, we are not being dishonest, only trusting! Where the supposed "opponent" sees a half empty cup, we see a half full one! Which of us is wrong? I dare anyone to tell me I am wrong when they cannot "prove" they are right! If we had 100% proof of everything, all of you would be Christians, wouldn't you?

That is why we look at the Bible as a message that comes off the pages and becomes truth, a personal experience, a reality to be found "individually" rather than as a herd. God is mine and I am His, a father to me and that is what concerns me, not whether He is same to others, choosing His Anointed, loving them who follow and trust Him.

You're a sinner?

Anyway Bro, all of us are so don't worry! The point is a desire and walk towards being better all-around! God seeks those who are ready to give themselves and their lives to Him and with such, He does things that amaze earth.

OLAADEGBU:
I will appreciate it if you can come out clearly and point out who and what you don't agree with or what has been said instead of generalising.  Who is insulting God, who is 'lying for Him' or 'forcing things that are not there'?  If you don't agree with the answers given to the questions asked by these skeptics why don't you point them out and address them? I believe that will be a much better witness to the truth instead of putting words under your tongue.

We say fanatical sons of Muslims die for their God whist God's Son died for us leaning towards a belief that we DO NOT fight for God but He fights for us - well, Sir, you are fighting for God here. Satan is known for the use of 5% lies mixed in 95% truth. The true portion mostly covers the lie and a show of braggadocio and noise usually carries the day. But discernment brings ridicule like in the cases below -

OLAADEGBU:
Modern Science in an Ancient Book

The infinite extent of the stellar heavens, contradicting the ancient pagan notion of a vaulted sky with stars affixed to a sort of hemispherical dome, is suggested in 22:12. "Is not God in the height of heaven? and behold the height of the stars, how high they are!" (see also Isaiah 55:9, etc.).

"Suggested"? ? ? You wish to become Abuzola's mentor, suggesting for God?    Weren't the TRUE points enough since adding this makes it all suddenly look stretched? 

Then there is your "it will be night here and day there" and general militancy towards people who God loves as equally as He loves you, as though owning the keys to the Kingdom. "can't recognise truth", "can't finish what they started" etc. I prefer not to comment on these 

Look, it is good that you are Christian, bless God for that, but you do not serve His purpose by using "faith" to ADD to His Words. We've all been guilty of this in the past and it is a sign of maturity to accept that none of us can give excuse for the Almighty who point blank refuses to excuse Himself when He says "I AM THAT I AM" - Totally sovereign and not answerable to any!

Tell your audience that one jot from God's Word will not fail - finish! If they will accept the truth, ok, else its them and God. Adding to God's Word, though, does not serve Him. "God's Word is not for any private interpretation".

Hello Ademlabi:

What would it cost to get, through you, a 2002 single cabin Ford F150 or similar pick-up? All I need is a cheap utility vehicle

Bro:

An assistant pastor at a church I used to attend came up one day looking very sad. When prompted, he expressed a fear at the circumstances in his life (things were very bad for him) and he wondered if his life was right and if his "ministry" was ok with God. We made him see that ALL Christians are called to minister and if any christian asks God, God would "naturally" tell such to do HIS work - that however, doesn't mean you should become a pastor. The guy has left "ministry" and is now fulfilled with a good job BUT ministers as he feels led (with according to him, more success in evangelism and his life).

Anyway, if you feel called to minister in a more special way and are truly called of God, look to God's Word for guidance. Jesus was a carpenter yet ministered. Peter was a fisherman yet ministered. Paul made tents for a living yet wrote most of the NT. Get a job or start a business and then like these, use YOUR substance to do God's Work. If this is acceptable to your spirit and you do not feel "led" to start a tithes ministry but a ministry built after the order of the Lord and His closest associates, then IMHO, you are truly called and have a reward from God.

Any Christian who never questioned is not a christian

Do you play Chess?

I'm looking for something familiar to use to discuss the issue with you.

Maybe its just me, but I see the Bible as an understanding for "Children" and a problem for many others which is why I would support Noetic. That said, the arguments by MyJoe and Krayola also make sense - the Bible might make "better sense" to a Christian but those who are not christian have their own day and are not totally out of it. They see it from a legalistic and more critical, less trusting point of view which IMHO, makes sense. Christians are exhorted to test every spirit and if we believe the Bible lives and is relevant, by all means test it, prove it and put it through the fire - If Gold, it will emerge pure and if dross, better we know now, ehn?

We have example of  the apostle going through the scriptures with an Ethiopian eunuch who, from what the Bible says, got the message. So its not like the pages are totally dimmed when an unbeliever reads honestly searching for information about itself or for knowledge. Where problems may arise is where I open it for the express purpose of finding fault. At this point, when it says "Sunrise", that becomes an issue even if/though National Geographic uses the term regularly.

We Christians though ought be careful, to not insult God, by lying for Him and forcing in things that are not there. If I force things into the Bible which I feel "support" God, do I have a moral justification to protest when anyone forces "contrary" things into the Bible? I never did see God trying to twist His way out of any mess anyway and unfortunately, phrases like "keep lying for Jesus" are our fault, not Jesus' fault and end up reflecting on Christianity rather than the individual involved.

^^^ Interesting that you defend so well. Would you please then, go a step further and openly, here, rebuke "ANY" religious book that posits violence as a book of hatred and not affiliated to the living God? For example, I declare that ANY religion whose book tells, encourages or exhorts its followers to kill "unbelievers" does not belong to God and is controlled by demons and evil, whether it is Christianity, Islam, Hinduism or whatever its called. Such religion is leading its followers into perdition.

Would you state same explicitly and also that there is nothing like that to be found in your Koran as applicable to today? Christianity made me a peaceful more quiet person (a change for the better). Can you claim same from the words in your Koran or is it possible that the people who kill so wantonly find justification from it?

BTW Kunleee, did you ever notice the Saudi flag? The city of Islam's birth and muslim world-center is depicted by an unsheathed sword with an arabic inscription that says "there is no god but allah and mohammed is his prophet". If I visit you at home with a categorical statement carrying a naked sword, would you say I come in peace?

I have nothing against you or any other muslim. I just would like us all to face the mirror and see the truth. It will help us change for the better.

You are right - too many people have killed in the name of God.

Fairness though was my point - judge a religion by what it says, not what the practitioners do. If their actions are in consonance with the teachings of their religion, fine, it is the religion that is under scrutiny but if not, you ought seperate them from the religion since obviously, they are not following its dictates.