₦airaland Forum

@Debosky,

debosky:
Nutter

I agree atrocities were committed during the war, as often happens in war situations, i do not condone it either.

A lot of atrocities were also committed long before the war (dating back to the 1940s) in ‘peacetime’. Some of these led to the war itself.

debosky:
I guess its up to the ikwerre to recognise and publicly accept themselves as part of the igbo nation, as well as the larger igbo group welcoming them openly not treating them like poor cousins.

True and true.

debosky:
I find it oddly baffling that 30 years after the civil war that is still the issue that igbos use to say they have been marginalised.

Not to be pedantic but it’s been 36 years since the government of that country stopped bombing markets, schools and hospitals in Biafra. However, the war itself is still ongoing – although the battlefield has since changed. That is why, after 36 long, dry years, the same issues that led to the break-out of hostilities are still with us – deliberately unresolved.

Consequently, the engineered Ikwerre/Nd’Igbo split is not the sole reason for Igbo vexation - far from it. The formulation of new and increasingly sophisticated measures to strangulate the Igbo has been the constant preoccupation of some.

debosky:
till they get to a point that they begin to organise properly and solve their internal issues,( e.g. the anambra debacle) they might not be taken as serious partners by any of the other geo-political zones or ethnic groupings ( which is necessary for any one candidate to rule Nigeria).

This is true. The desperately-needed (re)organisation is currently being carried out. Please refer to the recently held Igbo Political Summit.

debosky:
Nigeria has failed everyone - igbo, itshekiri, yoruba, fulani, kanuri, ijaw, etc.

Yes, but at varying levels of intensity. Let us not forget that ‘Igbo’ has been Nigeria’s pariah ethnic group from the off. If I were to post some quotes taken from the minutes of a session in the Northern House of Assembly in 1964 (and I will in my next post), you’d be shocked! These show that the January 1966 coup was the perfect excuse for unrestrained slaughter. That said, it is also important to note that the current anguish of other ethnic groups was made possible only because they either directly contributed to Igbo suffering themselves, or stood by and said nothing all through the years the Igbo suffered targeting. This reminds me of a rueful quote by Rev. Martin Niemoller who (in 1945) spoke about the atrocities in Nazi Germany:

"First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me."

debosky:
The key is critically examining our failures (which we have all contributed to) and seeking wasys of doing things in a better way for us to move forward.

This is also true. Particularly, the continual, violent persecution of the Igbo over these many years has united many with the same thought: ‘To move forward, we must create some distance between the ethnic nations (by way of autonomy) rather than continue to be burned by the friction of our closeness’. I am one of these many.


@Chxta,

I'll be back to address the issues thrown up by your last entry. Mrmayor has got the ball rolling.

@Idekeson,

You forgot to mention when they send you on an errand to but something (without giving you money) and tell you exactly how much 'change' they expect you to come back with

madlawyer1:
Yes, our beloved country has problems that still need sorting out but if all we do to continue to focus all the negatives - and they are aplenty - then it will become increasingly difficult to move forward.

You seem to be oblivious of the fact that it is these very negatives that keep the country from moving forward (in the first place) and not a discussion on them. Problems are never solved (especially at the national level of any country) by ignoring them.

madlawyer1:
Enough said. Let's close this topic.

We hear you loud and clear, Herr Fuhrer!! Sieg Heil! Sieg Heil! Sieg Heil!

“Now, in reality, the world has paid too great a compliment to critics, and has imagined them to be men of much greater profundity then they really are.” -- Henry Fielding.


@Labelle,

Very kind words all. Unfortunately, I am not a master in the art of ‘compliment handling’. I suppose I really should just take the compliment and say ‘Daalu’. However, I cannot help but hesitate to think it is necessarily deserved. As a consequence, I was successful in my struggle to delineate my ability from your warm-hearted generosity.

Concerning the ‘engagement of your hormones’ and the ‘countless spasms of excitement, anxiety and curiosity’ that have followed thereafter, am I to assume that these represent the humble beginnings of an elaborate mating ritual?

rikkyjen:
Another one was the day, we junior boys were coming from night prep and Our senior boys with the almighty SP were in our front walking down their chics to the hostel doing all the lovey- dovey stuffs,so we had rubberband and cardboard papers and so we fired the fat asses of the senior girls including the chick of the SP .

We did something similar. Some boys in my year hid in the school orchard with catapults and shot at mean senior girls. Some of those girls were wickeder than the blokes! Unfortunately, like in all 'wars', there were some innocent ‘casualties’ .

@All concerned,

Please see below portions of an article written by an Ikwerre son (Okachukwu Dibia) yesterday. If you won’t take my word, what reason have you not to take his?


"In considering the question of identity, there is a spiritual aspect which a lot of people tend to ignore. We all were created by God, and none of us had the luxury of choosing our race or tribe before we were born. Whatever race or tribe we are born into is the wish of the all-knowing supreme God. To deny our God-given identity because of some earthly politics is at best an insult to God who created us and made us who we are in the first place. How funny or stupid would it be to see a Blackman claiming not to be black? What we the Ikwerre have been doing is no different from such a scenario. In language, culture (new yam festival) or even as our names readily testifies the Ikwerre could be no other people but Igbo. If the British colonialists had decided to carve out of what we now know as Nigeria, ethnically homogenous nations as is the pattern in Europe, no doubt the Ikwerre would have been part of the Igbo country."


"Common sense indicates that the Ikwerre's would be better off by aligning with the Igbo family who fortunately constitute a majority bloc in Nigeria. Things may not be too rosy for the Igbo at the moment because of the hangover of the civil war, but no condition is permanent and sooner rather than later the Igbo would have to be given their rightful place, which is a sine qua non for Nigeria's very survival. Nigeria is a nation beset with the continuing fear of disintegration. Eventually the overwhelming need to redress the Nigerian quagmire to guarantee her survival and the beginning of true nationhood will compel a honest restructuring of the Nigerian plate in every sphere, which would naturally see the Igbo regain their influence. Without aligning with the larger Igbo family, the Ikwerre can never aspire to play any prominent role in national politics now or in the future."


"I believe the time has come for a new thinking among the Ikwerre leadership concerning our identity. It is obvious that whatever the leadership sought to achieve by the needless, shameful and undignified identity sham, the reverse has clearly been the case. "


"Ironically even those agents of the Nigerian state who may have encouraged the identity crisis, though they may have celebrated, because it serves their purpose, yet they will still not trust the average Ikwerreman, because simply put, nobody will trust a man who denies his ancestry. "It is better to deal with a trustworthy enemy, than an untrustworthy friend".


Full article can be found at: http://allafrica.com/stories/200606290102.html


Chxta, please take note and stop promoting division within the Igbo Nation.

@laide o,

I still dey try understand this system wey you carry come. You no wan talk money again? Ah, ah? Biko I mind. My story as reproduced above enjoys full copyright. No go bring court case on top your head because of juvenile wey struggle for food oh

Na today?

I won't dear. He doesn't seem to know that three is a crowd 

madlawyer1:
@ nuter, why don't u go to your own country? which doesn't exist i might add

Your sentences cancel each other out, my dear man. You are therefore yet to make a point.

@Debosky,

You seek the truth and that is commendable. However, mine is not a quest to acquire converts as some may mischievously choose to believe. The facts sell themselves. I am only interested in telling the truth of the matter.


Actually, even though Ohaneze has got its fingers soiled on more than one occasion and all discerning Igbo have since distanced themselves from the body, in fairness, I must state that Ohaneze’s position is one where they advocate a South-East or South-South Presidency. This position is acceptable to most Igbo. Don’t forget that Joseph Achuzia served as Secretary-General of Ohaneze. Achuzia is from Delta State in today’s South-South.


Before the war, the ‘Igboness’ of the Ikwerre and those in Delta was never in question. That in itself goes to show you the deliberate attempt to ensure confusion reigned among the Igbo post-war. For instance, Jubril Aminu, former Petroleum Minister and core Northerner from Adamawa State, said recently about the clamour for a South-South Presidency:


“I don’t like the way they are making their case because it doesn’t sell, I’m sorry to say I have so many brothers and sisters there. It doesn’t sound too logical to me that they want the presidency. South-South is trying to say that it has never been in the presidency. But, that is if you talk about the six geo-political zones. The South-South was part of the Eastern region and their son Ironsi, ruled Nigeria. Therefore, they cannot say they have not had anybody from 1914 because there was no South-South in 1959. They were part of the Eastern region and even during Biafra; they were doing very well. General Effiong was commander number 2 to Ojukwu. Graham-Douglas was Attorney General. Chief Akpan was secretary to government. So they were involved."

http://sunnewsonline.com/webpages/news/national/2006/june/25/national-25-06-2006-001.htm


If the Ikwerre choose to leave the greater Igbo family out of a genuine need for autonomy and not out of fear of reprisals, I’d be one of those firmly in support of the move – sad as that would make me. I wrote an article addressing this very issue last year. However, there remains a difference between what the regular Ikwerre thinks and what their current ‘leaders’ spout. In the same way, there remains a difference between what the Ikwerre say out of fear and what they’d say otherwise.


In truth, this whole South-South brouhaha is just one in a number of measures designed to carve-up Igboland and destroy the Igbo. This strategy is ideological - IF YOU CANNOT DESTROY THE IGBO BECAUSE THEY ARE IGBO, STOP THE IGBO FROM FEELING IGBO. Others of a financial nature (such as the 20 Pounds pay-off for the Igbo regardless of how much they had in banks – a policy championed by Awolowo) were also conducted and don’t even get me started on the ‘abandoned properties’ saga.


The best thing to do (if you really want to know more) is get to a search engine and experiment with a variety of related search criteria. You will find an abundance of information on the war and the reasons that led to it. You will find out about the massacre of Easterners (not just the Igbo) in Northern cities and others like Warri, Sapele, Agbor, Benue and Lagos. You will find that Ojukwu begged Nigerian officials to do something about these killings. You will find that affected Easterners returned to these cities after assurances of their safety were received. You will find that another round of killings was unleashed on these returnees. You will find that 30-50,000 men, women and children were killed. You will find that an even greater number had their limbs chopped off. You will find that the bellies of pregnant women were sliced open and their unborn babies beheaded. You will find that many headless bodies were put on trains and sent to the East. You will find that all this happened while policeman and soldiers either stood by and watched, or fully participated in these despicable acts. You will find out about the Aburi Accord (which would have prevented a full-scale war) that the Nigerian Government signed-up to but later ignored. You will find out about all the things Nigeria doesn’t want you to. Yes, you will find out the truth about the lie that Nigeria is.


When you come to the point where you have all the facts ordered at your fingertips, then perhaps you will understand my anger at a country which people like me gave up on, long after she gave up on us.

Definitely the 1914 Amalgamation. Definitely!

Hmmm, Chxta, make jealousy no kill you oh!

@Chxta,

Time to put up a defence for your Nigeria. That is the title of this thread – your thread. Yesterday you were too busy. Today, Nzeribe has upset you. At this rate, tomorrow you’d tell us that your wife didn’t cook your favourite meal, or your salary wasn’t paid, or your pet ate your response, or this same pet died, or you drank stout instead of ogogoro, or something or other. Mr Man, time to man your battle-station.

When you finally get round to putting a defence together, please also explain to us why YOU, a diehard One Nigeria advocate whose belief in Nigeria is, according to you, ‘firm and unshakeable’, is (not so secretly) nursing the intention of assassinating a serving Nigerian Senator. A senator wholly recognised by the very country you have chosen to defend. Is that not treasonous on very many levels? Are you (with your current state of mind) thus not a greater danger to the Nigerian State than people like me who advocate a peaceful separation? I’ll leave you to mull over that for a moment.


@debosky

Mate, I'll get back to you as soon as I can find the time. Had to set Chxta straight first.

Oh, you're welcome sweety 

Labelle: uh,  nutter, yahoo id ? me seeks conversation with thy.

What would be the thrust of this great conversation?

Your first thought was a pure one my dear - proper headshot. The bloke has not returned since your paralysing response. There is simply no comeback from that. Well done!

So far, the best answer provided to the question: ‘Igbo President: What Will Nigeria Turn Into?’, is that provided by edygirl: ‘it will turn into your head’.

Enough said.

@Naijaflyer,

No it wasn't Enugu. You mean a similar 'massacre' took place there too?

debosky:
@ Nutter

isn't Peter Odili ikwerre?

if he is and the ikwerre are igbo (as you claim for p/h), why is he being seen as a 'south-south' candidate for the presidency not an igbo candidate?

like i said earlier, some of my igbo brothers (a la Ojukwu) will always try to use the N-D minorities when it suits them, thats why they wanted to include the

ND as part of the Biafra republic, but when it comes to other issures, they (e.g ikwerre) are different and not really igbo.

isn't Peter Odili ikwerre? Yes, and?

if he is and the ikwerre are igbo (as you claim for p/h) - It’s not a question of me trying to imbue the Ikwerre with Igbo qualities. Historically and traditionally, the Ikwerre are Igbo. It’s as simple as that really.

why is he being seen as a 'south-south' candidate for the presidency not an igbo candidate? - Did you really mean to ask this question? Do I really need to remind you that the zones are artificial creations? Surely you should know this.

like i said earlier, some of my igbo brothers (a la Ojukwu) – Ojukwu is your brother?

will always try to use the N-D minorities when it suits them, thats why they wanted to include the ND as part of the Biafra republic, - I don’t know where you got your own history of the war. I suggest you do a bit more reading. The best place to start is the accounts of foreign journalists who were on the ground even before hostilities broke out. You want an unbiased report? You don't want to take my word for it? Then, read magazines like TIME. You will find that those you have categorised as ‘Niger Delta Minorities’ joined Biafra willingly. They too were massacred ALL OVER Nigeria. Yes, it wasn’t only in the North. Even Yorubaland, your Yorubaland, was thirsty for their blood.

but when it comes to other issures, they (e.g ikwerre) are different and not really igbo. – Issues such as what? It was the Ikwerre who tried to distance themselves from their Igbo brothers (and not the other way round) after the war because they were afraid of reprisal attacks. They were afraid of marginalisation (yeah, the Nigerian government was/is nasty that way). A lot of good that has done them so far.


My dear debosky, the truth, if you are prepared to accept it, is you have not taken the time to find out the reason(s) behind the way things are for yourself. You have chosen instead to swallow concocted lies that have made the rounds since the end of the war. Do some reading for yourself. Make the effort. That is what scholarship is all about.

davidylyan: Green - Agriculture = Imported food stuff you mean?
White - Peace = The kind of peace in the Niger Delta?

What about black for oil? That seems to be the only thing we produce these days. Red for all the Niger Delta and religious cartoon palaver.

Flag of Nigeria - Black Red Black

True word brother; true word!

@Chxta,

Once again I request that you make the necessary amendments to quotes credited to me on the other site. You say you are busy and that is understandable. However, the time you have taken to make several posts today would have been more than sufficient to make the required change. The current portrayal suggests I plagiarised the words of Sir Smithers.  Some may have visited your site and left with that impression. Aside from an amendment therefore, a retraction is also in order. I am extremely finicky about these matters. With every second you delay, the handshake goes further and further beyond the elbow. Please act swiftly. Thank you.

@Chyxta,

It has just come to my notice that you have reproduced a copy of your first post on another site (www.chxta..com). That is your prerogative. However, as my responses to your post will not also be posted on this other site, I find it imperative that you immediately amend the quotes you ascribed to me to reflect their true originator. I speak of the quotes made by Sir Peter Smithers. I would appreciate it if this is done ASAP. It is highly unethical to leave things as they are. Thank you.

debosky:
interesting thread

so p/h is now an igbo town? I thought it was ikwerre? when it suits you the ikwerres are igbo, when it doesn't they are outcasts

just my 2cents

its been an engaging discussion otherwise

interesting thread - Thank you, sir.

so p/h is now an igbo town? - Yes. It has always been. What do you mean ‘now’?

I thought it was ikwerre? - Yes. And? The Ikwerre are Igbo.

when it suits you the ikwerres are igbo, when it doesn't they are outcasts - When it suits who exactly?

just my 2cents - More like 2 kobo, mate. That is, worthless. Of no use to man or beast.

@Chyxta,

I don’t see how a ‘biography’ of ‘Nutter’ helps your position but hey, to each their own. If it was to alert members of this forum to my pro-Biafran leanings then, thanks. It is not a secret. I however feel it necessary to mention, contrary to what you may want others to believe, that a) I haven’t lived in the UK all my life, b) I went to boarding school IN Nigeria (please refer to some of my recent posts), c) my first degree was acquired FROM a Nigerian university, d) I served that country as a Youth Corper, and e) I moved to the UK for further study and continue to participate actively in Nigeria-related matters.

Now, if I have lost touch with the goings-on in Nigeria, why is it that millions of people IN Nigeria are saying the same things I am? Have they lost touch too? I mentioned on another thread that:

"The ultimate position of One Nigeria advocates is one where they state: "why are you not in Nigeria making this noise". They fail to admit (perhaps even to themselves) that there are many in Nigeria who at this very moment are screaming about injustice from the rooftops. There are many who have indicated a burning need to pull out of the failed contraption that is Nigeria. There are many who now conduct trade in goods and services using Biafran Pounds. There are many who fly the Biafran Flag of the Rising Sun with enormous pride. Millions are card-carrying members of MASSOB. Millions more have demonstrated a willingness to 'down tools and close shop' whenever called upon to do so. Are these people not in Nigeria? Let us for once acknowledge the facts that stare us in the face. The clamour for a pull-out does not emanate from outside Nigeria's shores. By now, given the numerous examples one has as reference points, there should be no disputation on that".


So Chxta, in your drive to ensure that Nigeria blunders on in its present despicable form, has your argument reduced to one where you turn the searchlight on the location of those calling for change. That method is not only getting a bit tired, it provides no shelter from reality; time to change tune. Those of us outside Nigeria are not alone in our contempt. If we were, you’d have a point. We are not, so you don’t.


That aside, I couldn’t help but notice the many inaccuracies in your post. I am yet to decide on if these were honest errors of if they were a result of boundless mischievous energy. Your subsequent response(s) will move me swiftly along the path of decision-making.

Chxta:
Nutter also brings up the example of the United Kingdom which in itself is made up of component parts (England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales). Then he proceeds to let us know that they are all autonomous parts (or is it semi-autonomous?). But he forgets to tell us that at least they have remained as one country, even though the Irish (Catholics at least) keep saying that they want to go and join their brethren in the Republic of Ireland. The point here is that the more intelligent minds among them realise that there is strenght in unity. England, Scotland and Wales as individual countries would be nonentities in the global scheme of things (hell even as the UK, they are struggling to keep up, what more if they break up?).

You missed the point of my UK example. How do you think UK unity is guaranteed? By force? My exact quote was:

“To pacify the Scots and the Welsh and to give them a sense of belonging, they are allowed to operate as pseudo-autonomous entities. They have their own houses of parliament, their own country flags, sports teams, and their own anthems. Additionally, Scotland prints its own version of the British Pound. The message that we get from the British style of governance is that you cannot isolate people and still expect them to carry on blindly swearing allegiance to an indivisible entity. The British who amalgamated over 250 different groups in Nigeria simply for commercial reasons, went back home and did the right thing for themselves. Now we are expected to die in a failed arrangement when the authors of that arrangement do not see it as workable among only 3 different groups. Contrast that with our 250 and the futility of the situation becomes clear.”


What I put across was a British system which promises all its nations a sense of belonging. It assures the nations that their culture, practices and general way-of-doing-things will not be smothered. Above all, the system promotes a sense of equity. This sense of equity is missing in Nigeria. Why did the British act properly towards themselves and improperly towards us? More importantly, why should we accept it?

Chxta:
Nutter said here that:
"During the debate for the Independence of Nigeria the view of the Secretary of State at that time, with which I agreed, was that in Nigeria we should attempt to put together a large and powerful state with ample material resources which play a leading part in the affairs of the continent and of the world. This was attractive but it involved forcing several different ethnic and cultural groups into a single political structure. In exculpation, it must be said that we did not then have the example of the collapse of Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union before our eyes. It should now be clear for all but the willfully blind to see that it is extremely dangerous to force diverse racial and social entities into a single rigid political structure."

And,
"But in retrospect, it is clear that this was a grave mistake which has cost many lives and will probably continue to do so. It should have been better to establish several smaller states in a free trade area."

You are wrong. As I made clear, those words were spoken by Sir Peter Smithers, the Parliamentary Private Secretary of State in the Colonial Office from 1952 to 1959. Even though I agree with every single word in those quotes, do read them again not as words written by me, but words spoken by someone in-the-know who has no reason to be biased.

Chxta:
Some people might want to bring up China, but it is easy to forget that China itself is not a homogenous nation. Very easy to forget that there is no such language as Chinese. We have Mandarin, Cantonese and a few others. Russia is not a homogenous nation either. Neither is the United States. The only world power that probably can lay claim to being homogenous is Japan, and even they have had their own civil wars.

But you see, these countries do not share something in common with Nigeria, that is a colonial master.

Again, you are wrong. The US was colonised by Britain (refer to American History) and China was colonised by the Empire of Japan (refer to Chinese "Education in National Humiliation”).

Chxta:
Someone mentioned Liechtenstein when I asked for a landlocked country that is doing well in order to support the argument for Biafra. You only need to look at the country's population (34,521) to realise that it is incomparable to Igboland.

I believe the countries I mentioned were Luxembourg and Switzerland. However, your insertion of population signals a movement of the goalpost. And, further, I pointed out that Port-Harcourt is an Igbo city so Igboland is not landlocked. Moreover, what does the difference in population signify? That Nd’Igbo will be choked in a new Biafra? Well, we not only did it before, but it is improper to assume that all Igbo would relocate to Biafra after it is actualised. The Igbo are a mercantilist people. We will always continue to settle in distant parts of the world. It is our nature.


I asked before but you ignored my challenge. I’ll ask again. Can you honestly list 30 of Nigeria’s 250 ethnic groups from memory? How can you fight for Nigerian ‘unity’ when you don’t know the people that make-up the very country you seek to defend? People like me have been accused of attempting to destabilise the country but that makes me laugh because it suggests that the country is stable in the first instance. We all know it isn’t and we also know why.

If you have any evidence which supports your assertion that Nigeria is better-off in its present form I am yet to see it. I see a nation that closes its eyes while the Igbo are routinely massacred in large numbers. I see a nation that demonizes a whole people yet expects them to 'tow the unity line' without question. I see a nation that slits Igbo throats and then expects them to apologise for bleeding. I see a nation that hounds MASSOB and similar organizations instead of asking why those organizations have the support they do. What do you see?