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Christianity Etc › Re: This Mosque In Abu Dhabi, UAE Will Shock You. by Ohyoudidnt: 12:31am On Aug 24, 2023*

Fight with those from among the people of the Book, who do not believe in Allah nor in the Last Day;who do not make unlawful that which Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful,and do not adopt the Right way as their way. (Fight with them) until they pay Jizyah with their own hands and are humbled.

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture (Christians and Jews) - [fight] until they give the jizyah (Humiliating Tax) willingly while they are humbled."

Is the above emboldened not the translation of the meaning by Madudi? You included in bracket what wasn't there or can you provide a link or screenshot for your Madudi version that's verifiable?

Some historical analysis is required. Do see this.

The series of events about which this Surah is revealed took place after the Peace Treaty of Hudaibiyah. By that time, one-third of Arabia had come under the sway of Islam which had established itself as a powerful, well organized and civilized Islamic State. This Treaty afforded further opportunities to Islam to spread its influence in the comparatively peaceful atmosphere created by it. After this Treaty, two events took place, which led to very important results:

Conquest of Arabia
The first was the Conquest of Arabia. The Holy Prophet was able to send missions among different clans for the propagation of Islam. The result was that during the short period of two years, it became such a great power that it made the old order of ignorance' feel helpless before it. So much so that the zealous elements from among the Quraish were so exasperated that they broke the Treaty in order to encounter Islam in a decisive combat.

The Holy Prophet took prompt action after the breach so as not to allow any opportunity to gather enough force for this. He made a sudden invasion on Makkah in the month of Ramadan in A. H. 8 and conquered it. This conquest broke the backbone of the order of ignorance it however made still another attack on Islam in the battle-field of Hunain, which proved to be its death-knell.

The clans of Hawazin Thaqif, Naur, Jushm and others gathered their entire forces in the battle field in order to crush the reformative Revolution, but they utterly failed in their evil designs. The defeat of 'ignorance' at Hunain paved the way for making the whole of Arabia the 'Abode of Islam' (Dar-ul-Islam). The result was that hardly a year had Passed after the Battle of Hunain, when the major portion of Arabia came within the fold of Islam and only a few upholders of the old order remained scattered over some corners of the country.

Hardly a year passed after the Battle of Hunain, when the major portion of Arabia came within the fold of Islam and only a few upholders of the old order remained scattered over some corners of the country.

The following event contributed towards making Islam a formidable power is the Campaign of Tabuk. It was necessitated by the provocative activities of the Christians living within or near the boundaries of the Roman Empire to the north of Arabia. (just as you and your ilk have been doing; sadly some of my family join or try to retaliate which sadly is not profitable fun).
The Prophet pbuh with an army of thirty thousand marched boldly towards the Roman Empire but the Romans evaded the encounter. The power of the Prophet and Islam increased manifold and deputations from all corners of Arabia began to wait upon him on his return from Tabuk in order to offer their allegiance to Islam and obedience to him. The Holy Quran has described this triumph in Surah An-Nasr: "When the succor of Allah came and victory was attained and you saw people entering the fold of Islam in large numbers...
The Tabuk affair resulted from conflict with the Roman Empire which started even before the conquest of Makkah. One of the missions sent after the Treaty of Hudaibiyah to different parts of Arabia visited the clans which lived in the northern areas adjacent to Syria. The majority of these people were Christians, who were under the influence of the Roman Empire. Contrary to all the principles of the commonly accepted international law, they killed fifteen members of the delegation near a place known as Zat-u-Talah . Ka'ab bin Umair Ghifari, the head of the delegation, succeeded in escaping and reporting the sad incident. Shurahbll bin Amr, the Christian governor of Busra, who was directly under the Roman Caesar, had also put to death Haritli bin Umair, the ambassador of the Prophet, who had been officially sent to him.
This convinced the Prophet to take strong action in order to make the territory adjacent to the Roman Empire safe and secure for the Muslims.In the month of Jamadi-ul-Ula A. H. 8,

He sent an army of three thousand towards the Syrian border. When this army reached near Ma'an, the Muslims learned that Shurahbil was marching with an army of one hundred thousand to fight-with them and that the Caesar, who himself was at Hims, had sent another army consisting of one hundred thousand soldiers under his brother Theodore. The brave small band of the Muslims marched on fearlessly and encountered the big army of Shurahbil at M'utah. And the result of the encounter in which the Muslims were fighting against fearful odds (the ratio of the two armies was 1:33), as very favorable, for the enemy utterly failed to defeat them. This proved very helpful for the propagation of Islam. As a result, those Arabs who were living in a state of semi independence in Syria and near Syria and the clans of Najd near Iraq, who were under the influence of the Iranian Empire, turned towards Islam and embraced it in thousands.

Farvah bin 'Amral Juzami, the commander of the Arab armies of the Roman Empire, embraced Islam at this time and got summoned by the Caeser who ordered his arrested and persecution at his court. The Caesar said to him, "You will have to choose one of the two things. Either give up your Islam and win your liberty and your former rank, or remain a Muslim and face death." He calmly chose Islam and sacrificed his life in the way of the Truth. (He would have been right to feign denouncing as per original Taqiyya which you misuse and abuse to save his life).

http://www.englishtafsir.com/Quran/9/index.html

Read through then present a contrary documented narration.

Define what is Shirk from an Islamic perspective and review if this doesn't apply to the Christians and Jews?

Though the people of the Book professed to believe in Allah and the Hereafter, in fact they believed in neither. For only that person really believes in Allah who acknowledges Him as the only One God and the only One Lord, and does not associate with Him any other, whatsoever, in His Being, in His characteristics, in His rights and in His powers and authority. But according to this definition of shirk both the Christians and the Jews were guilty of shirk as has been made plain in the verses that follow: therefore their profession of belief in Allah was meaningless.
No need to quote Q9:30 as you are looking for more argument; your favourite pastime. It however is true that Christians see Isa ibn Maryam as the son of Allah even if present day majority Jews are at variance with the now extinct sect of the God son belief.

The aim of Jihad with the Jews and the Christians and it is not to force them to become Muslims and adopt the `Islamic Way of Life.' Jihad aims to end the independence and supremacy of Jews and Christians by forcing them to pay Jizyah. This will prevent them from remaining rulers and sovereigns. True Faith followers will assume sovereignty and lead others towards the Right Way, while non-Muslims living as Zimmis (proteges) in an Islamic State pay jizyah for security and protection..

TenQ:
Are you saying that your scholars such as Maududi and Al-Jalalyn telling lies?

Allah Says:
Quran9:29:
"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture (Christians and Jews) - [fight] until they give the jizyah (Humiliating Tax) willingly while they are humbled."

Allah is simply saying
1. Fight the non Muslims AND
2. For the Christians and Jews, give them the OPTION of Jizya if they don't want to die.
3. The Jews and Christians should be made to willingly PAY the Jizya in Humiliation.

So that you see your lies
1. Maududi Al-Qur'an Tafsir Qur'an 9:29
a. Though the people of the Book professed to believe in Allah and the Hereafter, in fact they believed in neither.
b. But according to this definition of shirk both the Christians and the Jews were guilty of shirk as has been made plain in the verses that follow: therefore their profession of belief in Allah was meaningless. Likewise they did not really believe in the Hereafter, in spite of the fact that they believed in Resurrection.

c. The second reason why Jihad should be waged against them is that they did not adopt the Law sent down by Allah through His Messenger.

Al-Maududi, even classifies Christians and Jews as guilty of Shirk and therefore should be treated as infidels.

2. Tafsir Ibn Kathir Qur'an 9:29
(Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth among the People of the Scripture, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.) Therefore, when People of the Scriptures disbelieved in Muhammad , they had no beneficial faith in any Messenger or what the Messengers brought. Rather, they followed their religions because this conformed with their ideas, lusts and the ways of their forefathers, not because they are Allah's Law and religion. Had they been true believers in their religions, that faith would have directed them to believe in Muhammad , because all Prophets gave the good news of Muhammad's advent and commanded them to obey and follow him. Yet when he was sent, they disbelieved in him, even though he is the mightiest of all Messengers. Therefore, they do not follow the religion of earlier Prophets because these religions came from Allah, but because these suit their desires and lusts. Therefore, their claimed faith in an earlier Prophet will not benefit them because they disbelieved in the master, the mightiest, the last and most perfect of all Prophets . Hence Allah's statement,

Christianity Etc › Re: This Mosque In Abu Dhabi, UAE Will Shock You. by Ohyoudidnt: 12:15am On Aug 22, 2023

We take reservation to the interpretation of this as a humiliating tax.

The notion that Jizya is a humiliating tax is a fallacy based on misunderstandings and misconceptions. Jizya, a tax historically levied on non-Muslim citizens in Islamic states, is not intended as a means to humiliate or discriminate against certain individuals. Rather, it serves as a financial obligation to supplement the duties Muslims are responsible for, such as military service and Zakat. It is a testament to the inclusive nature of Islamic societies, as Jizya allows non-Muslims the freedom to practice their own faith while benefiting from state protection. Viewing Jizya as humiliating is to overlook its intended purpose and perpetuates false stereotypes, as it is merely a way to ensure fairness and social cohesion in diverse communities.

TenQ:
1. What have I said below that is an error?
2. Why would you not respond to my various questions but only restate your position.

If you had only responded to each of my questions, you would have notice that your Plea for Romans 13:1-7 is taken care of by the number 1 (If I chose to live in Saudi Arabia..)
But, as usual, you wouldn't respond to questions but continue to spew out memorised Islamic doctrines

Here again was what I wrote

Christianity Etc › Re: Who Deleted This Verse From The Perfectly Preserved Quran Of Muhammad? by Ohyoudidnt: 10:09pm On Aug 11, 2023

May Allah guide and suffice you as well as accept your acts as ibadah.

It's often impossible to change a bias more so when he agrees with the mischievous hadith and probably shared views of some of the ummah.

A brother from Syria I briefly schooled with shared that since the Quran cannot be corrupted those against Islam have adopted ahead. Alas since even the time of our prophet pbuh they have been at this and we know until the world comes to an end the accursed devil will keep trying to mislead.

Christianity Etc › Re: Who Deleted This Verse From The Perfectly Preserved Quran Of Muhammad? by Ohyoudidnt: 8:34pm On Aug 11, 2023*

Salam bro. May Allah enrich you. Indeed they know do not allow them to lure you into much arguments.

We send the messengers only as deliverers of good news and warners. Those who disbelieve argue with false argument, in order to defeat the truth thereby. They take My Verses, and the warnings, for a joke. (18:56)

It seems Tenq pleasures in continuing arguments even when he rationally sees differently. Don't let him waste your time. I believe there are more rewarding acts than his enduring debates.

Besides it is not enough to profess the Shahzad we will be tested for sincerity and steadfastness. We can share what we know of truth but know the shayatin are ever trying to mislead and deceive.

You have spoken your truth but the attempt at corruption through hadith is and will be there for as long as Allah leaves. We are not to convince but share information and maybe learn a thing or two from them even if for sake of just knowing. May Allah aid us in our lives and practice of the Deen.
Laqum deenikum waliyadeen

satmaniac:
You made many points and I am going respond to them. You sounds just like the supporters of Hadiths and for a good reason. You need the Hadith to attack the Quran.

The point you made about needing Hadith to pray, fast etc, is a weak point. Because, I ask a question which you or any supporter of Hadith has not answered yet. If Hadith, were collected long after the prophet was gone, what were the Muslims then praying with? And also I need you to back up your claim were you said Hadith teaches prayers and other aspect of the religion. Please, provide the Hadiths that gie the details of salat, like you asked me to do? I dare you or any one to provide that Hadith. The point you people seems to miss is you think the Muslim prayer, fasting and hajj begins with Muhammad. The Quran always remind us that these practices are nothing new. Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, Ismail etc did perform salat(Check Quran 8:35, 9:54, 16:123, 21:73, 22:27, 28:27).

Practicing Mutah from Quran alone? Where exactly do you have that in the Quran?

Where do you get it from the Quran that someone can marry a pre-puberscent girl?

No 2? Haba bro did you have to bring that up. The Quran has answered that already checked Quran 22:36.

knowing the meaning of Messiah and who Israel is has nothing to do with my salvation or truth. The point you and most Muslims seems to missed is Quran is not a book of stories. There is a reason it calls itself the Furqan. The truth is Islam as well as Christainity had been corrupted and made to deviate from its original purpose. This is what Quran will correct if we give it the chance. Just let the Quran speaks for itself. Stop imposing meanings from external sources or your heart desire. It is easy to understand for the sincere seeker(Quran 54:17).

Please, don't forget to provide pure Quranic text that encourages Mutah and marrying pre-puberscent girls.

Christianity Etc › Re: Who Deleted This Verse From The Perfectly Preserved Quran Of Muhammad? by Ohyoudidnt: 8:27pm On Aug 11, 2023*

Thank you brother. May Allah pardon our excesses. Allah is the one who guides and non can guide who he doesn't.
May Allah accept our living as worship, pardon our misdeeds and grant us firdous.

It is widely accepted that our recitations are valid and authentic, they do present variations in pronunciation and wordings, however, these divergences have led researchers to acknowledge that the Hafs recitation, which is prevalent and widespread, showcases a relatively stricter phonetic approach compared to the Warsh recitation. They have argued that the Warsh recitation provides a unique perspective on linguistic features and dialectical influences, shedding light on the rich diversity within the Arabic language.
Despite the few word changes appearing differently in the Hafs and Warsh versions of the Quran, there is no difference in meaning between these two versions. Hafs and Warsh are the two most well-known recitation styles of the Quran, and they differ mainly in the pronunciation and phonetics of certain words. The difference in the word changes are purely a matter of pronunciation variation and does not alter the essence or interpretation of the text.

The preservation of the Quran has been of utmost importance to Muslims throughout history, and it has been meticulously transmitted through a strong oral tradition. Both the Hafs and Warsh versions are widely accepted across different Muslim communities, emphasizing the common understanding that the core message and teachings of the Quran remain unaltered regardless of the style of recitation.

Indeed Allah is sufficient to keep his religion, book and followers and is sufficient for me and Muslims

Explore2xmore:
May Allah reward you. As I was advised it is often fruitless with a lot of these guys. It really is a period of dajullun.

They think the recitations differ in core message picking single word variations here and there and exclusively reading without going with the entire verse

They don't know or in a bid to deceive think the ummah is unaware of the 10 recitations.

Christianity Etc › Re: Who Deleted This Verse From The Perfectly Preserved Quran Of Muhammad? by Ohyoudidnt: 9:07am On Aug 10, 2023

Does your sharing of videos that point at wrong titling justifies your falsehoods?

Don't these Mushafs include the style and transmitters?

Are what you labelled as Ibn 'Amir an Shaybah and Hisham an Ibn 'Amir different from Hafs ibn Asim?

Is this too different from Yaqub an Nafi'?

What is different between Khalaf an Hamzah,
Khallad an Hamzah?

Look picking names of transmitters instead of their reading doesn't amount to different Quran.

Why weren't these different books opened by Jay Smith to show differences in their verses?

Christianity Etc › Re: Who Deleted This Verse From The Perfectly Preserved Quran Of Muhammad? by Ohyoudidnt: 9:33pm On Aug 09, 2023

I haven't seen your truth

You stated 27 and listed 17 what happened your truth motor ran out of gas?

TenQ:
You tell me.?

At least I have shown you that Warsh Qur'an and Hafs Qur'an doesn't agree with earth other.

So, my Sheik Ohyoudidnt, from Qur'an 2:125, is watakhizu still the same as watakhazu ?

Or maybe It's just a style of pronunciation written down so that it changes the word of Allah into something Allah didn't say!

Have a nice day sir.
It's important to know that your Islamic scholars play Taqqiya on you in glorifying the Qur'an.

When you know the Truth , the Truth will set you free.
Jesus said:
I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except by Me.

Christianity Etc › Re: Who Deleted This Verse From The Perfectly Preserved Quran Of Muhammad? by Ohyoudidnt: 9:31pm On Aug 09, 2023*

You have claimed 27, 32 and say we will get to 70 but named only 17. You forgot the names of the 10 to make it to 27?

Nevertheless, were there variations in recitation done by Muhammad pbuh?

Was he aware his companions and other muslims recited differently?

Did he say one recitation was wrong and the other right?

Did the companions continue this trend?

You worry about an act to safeguard the variations from possible corruption which is referred to as the Uthmani codex yet are in awe that ancient arabic writing accomodates the 7 or 10 styles of recitations. Simply
by adding a letter or omitting a letter, or elongating or shortening a vowel or placement of diacritical marks.

We have gone through a few specific examples and there aren't any critical or worrisome differences in the meaning of the verse.

Now; if these variations were not known in the time of the Prophet pbuh there will be issues but they have been known in his presence. He did not condemn or forbid them. An added benefit to grant from Allah ease to his followers. You know the just before dawn meal and end of the fast by sunset is another of these grants.

These variations all fall within set limits such that for any accepted recitation;
* It must have an authentic chain of narration where the chain of narrators was continuous

* The narrators were all known to be righteous
* The narrators were all known to possess
good memories.
* The recitation be conveyed by a large
number of narrators on each level of the
chain of narration below the level of a
companion of the prophet.

Where there were authentic chains but insufficient number of narrators the recitations were accepted as explanations (Tafseer) of the companions but were not considered as methods of reciting the Qur'an.

All others are rejected.

Christianity Etc › Re: Who Deleted This Verse From The Perfectly Preserved Quran Of Muhammad? by Ohyoudidnt: 6:16pm On Aug 09, 2023

How many recitations exist in Islam and how many styles are there?

What is the difference between the recitations and styles?

Christianity Etc › Re: Who Deleted This Verse From The Perfectly Preserved Quran Of Muhammad? by Ohyoudidnt: 6:11pm On Aug 09, 2023

Writing to agree does not validate or negate your claim of 27.

Do you confirm that you are just being a nuisance and not a clown?

How have you shown imperfections in the preservation have your illustrated clearly different to the point of contradictory messages?

Christianity Etc › Re: Who Deleted This Verse From The Perfectly Preserved Quran Of Muhammad? by Ohyoudidnt: 5:05pm On Aug 09, 2023

TenQ:
But we have up to 27 Arabic Qurans: how?

We should only be able to account for 7 and no more!

No, explicitly name the 27 you stated first then we can continue 70.

You are the joke if you don't name the 27

Christianity Etc › Re: Who Deleted This Verse From The Perfectly Preserved Quran Of Muhammad? by Ohyoudidnt: 2:47pm On Aug 09, 2023*

You say there are 27 Qurans then list just 17 and 2 Videos?

Is each video equal to 5 Qurans?

Your video title says 32 different Qurans so I don't get concisely what you are saying.

Can you be precise?

Christianity Etc › Re: Who Deleted This Verse From The Perfectly Preserved Quran Of Muhammad? by Ohyoudidnt: 1:38pm On Aug 09, 2023

Are these 27 Qurans?

List them then

Christianity Etc › Re: Who Deleted This Verse From The Perfectly Preserved Quran Of Muhammad? by Ohyoudidnt: 11:47am On Aug 09, 2023

Enough for the tribes. 7.

What tribe are Umar bin Al-Khattab and Hisham bin Hakim?

Christianity Etc › Re: Who Deleted This Verse From The Perfectly Preserved Quran Of Muhammad? by Ohyoudidnt: 9:56am On Aug 09, 2023*

You say 27 Quran. Are you mixing Ahroof and Qiraah?

Which of your claimed versions has no established trace back to prophet Muhammad pbuh?

Christianity Etc › Re: Who Deleted This Verse From The Perfectly Preserved Quran Of Muhammad? by Ohyoudidnt: 9:53am On Aug 09, 2023

Angels are with Allah in what way?

My translator automatically converts the nun to ba however you realize the difference here is the position of the dot.

You however know the evolution of the arabic alphabet or don't you?

Christianity Etc › Re: Who Deleted This Verse From The Perfectly Preserved Quran Of Muhammad? by Ohyoudidnt: 9:00am On Aug 09, 2023

They are both original
Helping me out after I already posted? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣.
How come it was so difficult to do before?

What essentially is different in the two verses you posted?

Which is outside the revealed?

تَقُولُونَ or يَقُولُونَ is a problem for you? 🤣🤣🤣

Have you crosschecked?
Quran 43:19
Hafs: ibaad (slaves)
Warsh: inda (with)

Christianity Etc › Re: Who Deleted This Verse From The Perfectly Preserved Quran Of Muhammad? by Ohyoudidnt: 1:05am On Aug 09, 2023*

Christianity Etc › Re: Who Deleted This Verse From The Perfectly Preserved Quran Of Muhammad? by Ohyoudidnt: 12:48am On Aug 09, 2023

[quote author=TenQ post=124970242]Quran 43:19
ibaad (slaves) = inda (with)
[/i]

I actually started here and it betrays your inability to read arabic as Ibaadu (slave) occurs in both hafs and warsh.

Watch your preacher/hero's sweet tongue and do be entrapped in their valleys of deceitful lies.

There isn't anything like inda in any of the styles for this verse.

Christianity Etc › Re: Who Deleted This Verse From The Perfectly Preserved Quran Of Muhammad? by Ohyoudidnt: 12:14am On Aug 09, 2023

Lets look at 2:140

Or do you say that Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants were Jews or Christians? Say, "Are you more knowing or is Allah ?" And who is more unjust than one who conceals a testimony he has from Allah ? And Allah is not unaware of what you do.

And

Or do they say that Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants were Jews or Christians? Say, "Are you more knowing or is Allah ?" And who is more unjust than one who conceals a testimony he has from Allah ? And Allah is not unaware of what you do

How have the emboldened affected the meaning of the verses?

These recitations are acceptable; most of the differences in them are either phonetic, or in letter dotting, the application of diacritics, the use of Hamza, the interchange among vowels. The limited slight variations in word meanings are particular to individual words not to the general meaning of the verse.

The Ulama are aware of these variations and they do not change the meaning of the verses.

Do you know there's a special name for a reciter who can master and perform all 10 recitations with their variations; is called Jamial Qiraah (Gatherer of recitations).
They are rare and unlike the tale you try to promote these variations are not novel or unknown.

It actually is something miraculous to recite with these variations and retain the general same meaning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n281Zyywyn4

Christianity Etc › Re: Who Deleted This Verse From The Perfectly Preserved Quran Of Muhammad? by Ohyoudidnt: 11:10pm On Aug 08, 2023

Quite interesting. I downloaded and have not seen it. Why don't you spare us the back and forth and present your evidence in full not picking words from verses but presenting the full verses.
You say:
I repeat :
If you don't have the copy of the Warsh Qur'an, everything we say is meaningless!
Just post the Arabic for both Hafs and Warsh Qur'an and we look at the dissident words

What prevents you from posting yourself?

Christianity Etc › Re: Who Deleted This Verse From The Perfectly Preserved Quran Of Muhammad? by Ohyoudidnt: 5:41pm On Aug 08, 2023

Those words in absence of the full verses/sentence don't say much.

Write out the full sentences please

Christianity Etc › Re: Who Deleted This Verse From The Perfectly Preserved Quran Of Muhammad? by Ohyoudidnt: 2:38pm On Aug 08, 2023

Sadly I cannot see the differences. Do oblige me by fully sharing what you have.

Christianity Etc › Re: Who Deleted This Verse From The Perfectly Preserved Quran Of Muhammad? by Ohyoudidnt: 2:07pm On Aug 08, 2023

TenQ:
You said :
You just wrote words without writing out the full verses to see how the meanings changed

I wrote CHANGES in meanings so that you can VERIFY if my claim is TRUE or FALSE!

You didn't say anything about the differences between the Warsh Qur'an and the Hafs Qur'an I gave you. Are These also linguistic variations?

I guess you should open the Arabic Warsh and Hafs Qur'an and thus explain the differences in these verses

Quran 2:125
Hafs: watakhizu (you shall take)
Warsh: watakhazu (they have taken)

Quran 2:140
Hafs: taquluna (You say)
Warsh: yaquluna (They say)

Quran 2:184
Hafs: miskeenin (poor person
Warsh: masakeena (poor people)

Quran 3:146
Hafs: qatala (fought)
Warsh: qutila (was killed)

Quran 40:26
Hafs: aw an (or that)
Warsh: wa an (and that)

Quran 43:19
Hafs: ibaad (slaves)
Warsh: inda (with)

If you don't have the Warsh Qur'an, please download one from the Google Playstore

Note that All these change in meaning is from the Arabic Qur'an. Change of Language (Linguistic Variations or Differences) must not change the meaning of a SENTENCE : Should it?

So my brother,
While the standard Islamic Narratives paint perfect picture of Islam to you Muslims, there are so many underlining LIES and MISINFORMATION within it.
Why do you think Poison is mixed with good food? Is it not to kill the unsuspecting prey?

What is a standard Islamic narrative to you and what poison do you refer to?

[i]My CHALLENGE:
If you are interested in the Truth, Open the Arabic Warsh and Hafs Qur'an, copy the Arabic words and Prove to me that they mean EXACTLY the same MEANING!

This truth that you shy away from presenting here
If truly you speak a truth why not share it fully here for me and all to see.

Christianity Etc › Re: Who Deleted This Verse From The Perfectly Preserved Quran Of Muhammad? by Ohyoudidnt: 1:17pm On Aug 08, 2023*

[quote author=TenQ post=124967068]You will note clearly why I say that the Standard Islamic Narratives you Muslims sell is actually different from the reality
1. You claim that the Qur'an is word for word the word of Allah AND Uthman destroyed ALL variant Qur'an.
BUT
The Truth is that this Narrative is FALSE as the variant Recitations is what make up the Qur'an not the Uthman Qur'an.
2. You claimed mathematical Miracles in the Qur'an
BUT
If there is the Mathematical Miracles of the Qur'an as you claim, on which Qur'an does it work. Is it Warsh or Hafs or the other numerous Qur'an.
3. You claim that Jibril gave Mohammed SEVEN Recitations or Dialects of Arabic.
BUT
We should expect only SEVEN and not 27 Different Styles of RECITATIONS as you would want us to believe.
4. You claim that the Qur'an is the eternal word of Allah written on the mother tablet in heaven

Lauh e Mahfuz ;The Preserved Tablet of Allah lies on His Arsh (Throne) and all that is going to happen from the point of creation was penned in to it including the Quran.

(39:23) Allah has revealed the best teaching, a self-consistent book which repeats its contents in manifold forms [/b]whereat shiver the skins of those that hold their Lord in awe, and then their skins and their hearts soften for Allah's remembrance. That is Allah's Guidance wherewith He guides whosoever He pleases. And he whom Allah does not guide to the Right Path has none to guide him.

[b]BUT
Linguistic variation should NOT change the meaning of any verse in the Qur'an. If linguistic variation changes the meaning of any verse, it can only mean that there are differences or discrepancies and variation between the original copy of the Qur'an and the modern one you have in your hands right now.

Does it really change the meaning ?

The image you showed highlighted spelling and pronunciation of words and I have no problem with that as it doesn't CHANGE the meaning of the verse. What I complain about are differences IN WORDS that change TOTALLY the meaning of the Arabic text.

You didn't say anything about the differences between the Warsh Qur'an and the Hafs Qur'an I gave you. Are These also linguistic variations?

You just wrote words without writing out the full verses to see how the meanings changed

If the claim that Uthman burnt all copies is correct how come there are different copies today?

How important is the 'mathematical miracle' in the Quran in comparison to core of the Quran.
Do you imply experts of mathematics like Oppenheimer, Einstein, Oyibo etc have an express pass into a blissful hereafter?

I stated recitation and dialect are not exactly correct tranlation of Ahruf

Watch please

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hj7u0F3yEg

Christianity Etc › Re: Who Deleted This Verse From The Perfectly Preserved Quran Of Muhammad? by Ohyoudidnt: 12:16pm On Aug 08, 2023*

TenQ:
There are varying dialects of the Yoruba language as there are modern and ancient Yoruba language. One thing however is that, it doesn't matter which one is used the translation and meaning does NOT change.

I will give you some Examples
A. Imi (excrement)- Oyo
Igbe (excrement)- Modern

B. Irun (Hair)- Oyo/Modern
Ito (Hair) - Igbomina

C. Baba (Father)- Oyo/Modern
Kawu (Father) - Ekiti/Igbomina

Here above are three different Yoruba words due to Dialect differences but meaning EXACTLY the same thing.

So also, differences in Arabic dialects does not cause a change in meaning of words.

I guess you should open the Arabic Warsh and Hafs Qur'an and thus explain the differences in these verses

Quran 2:125
Hafs: watakhizu (you shall take)
Warsh: watakhazu (they have taken)

Quran 2:140
Hafs: taquluna (You say)
Warsh: yaquluna (They say)

Quran 2:184
Hafs: miskeenin (poor person
Warsh: masakeena (poor people)

Quran 3:146
Hafs: qatala (fought)
Warsh: qutila (was killed)

Quran 40:26
Hafs: aw an (or that)
Warsh: wa an (and that)

Quran 43:19
Hafs: ibaad (slaves)
Warsh: inda (with)

Moreover, Hafs has 6238 verses but Warsh 6214.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L97rk1rrY9c

Other examples if you care.

https://muslimseekers.com/difference-between-hafs-and-warsh-qurans-2/

I have shown you where to purchase your hard copy Bibles in Hebrew and Greek with their English translations if you want. I gave you the electronic version as this costs you NOTHING.

Sorry, the Quran has been changed. How did Uthman's Qur'an metamorphosed into Quran's with changes in dialects?
How!?

Ahruf is not a dialect but rather a linguistic variation

Number of Qur'anic verses may range from 6,212 to 6,250, depending on the system used. The reasons for such differences are varied but is there a difference in the content?
The varyious systems of verse-numbering depend upon varying judgement as to where the rhyme was intended to fall, inclusion or obmission of the Bismillahi in the count.

I have attached pictures of hafs and warsh in images shared. Look them up though I know you have done this either here and severally elsewhere.

Are there really differences in the context of what is said?

What is essentially different in
1. Do you claim that Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and their descendants were `Jews' or `Christians'?"

2. Do they claim that Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and their descendants were `Jews' or `Christians'?"

Talking to one person or plural persons

Talking to many persons at once.

If you address a crowd and say facing them do you think this is how it should be? You didn't name anyone in particular so can be talking to everyone in that crowd individually.

If you say do they say where the crowd have identified themselves as the crowd or know who they is.

In either case the issue remains the "claim that Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and their descendants were `Jews' or `Christians'?"

Christianity Etc › Re: Who Deleted This Verse From The Perfectly Preserved Quran Of Muhammad? by Ohyoudidnt: 12:10am On Aug 08, 2023*

No. I only state that there was a standard form of Qureysh arabic taken to forestall loss of the actual Quran due to variations.

It is crucial to understand that Ahruf is not a dialect but rather a linguistic variation. The Ahruf system encompasses different linguistic expressions that are used to convey the same message with slight variations to accommodate different audiences.

These variations include differences in pronunciation, wording, or grammatical structure, which are limited to a few letters or words and do not fundamentally change the meaning of the Quran.

Dialects, on the other hand can significantly deviate from the standard language and may require different grammar rules and vocabulary, Ahruf exists within the framework of the Arabic language itself. Recognizing Ahruf as a variation within the language allows for a deeper understanding of the flexibility and adaptability of the Quranic text.

The Quran appears to be of different versions not because the words are different but because the markings to aid pronunciation are different.

The different ahruf are all directly from Allah, and not from the Companions. In all the narrations where the companions differed from each other, it was clear that each one had been taught directly from the Prophet.

Primarily the styles was to enable ease of recitation for the area spread where arabiams lived from Mecca, Medina, Iraq, Syria, Jordan and beyond.

These are multiple styles are all authentic based upon meeting certain conditions and which add to the meaning of the Qur’an while not contradicting one another.

We should compare these variations you mention if you can name or bring them.

Regarding the bibles some of us come from the era before the digital boom and are used to seeing hard copies of religious books in libraries, bookstores, religious shops, schools etc.

Christianity Etc › Re: Who Deleted This Verse From The Perfectly Preserved Quran Of Muhammad? by Ohyoudidnt: 5:16pm On Aug 07, 2023

Yes he was mentioned twice. Though 41 times you read about the sons of Israel; Bani israel (descendants of Israel/people of israel)

Surah Al Imran (3), Ayah 93:

كُلُّ ٱلطَّعَامِ كَانَ حِلًّۭا لِّبَنِي إِسْرَاءِيلَ إِلَّا مَا حَرَّمَ إِسْرَاءِيلُ عَلَىٰ نَفْسِهِۦ مِن قَبْلِ أَن تُنَزَّلَ ٱلتَّوْرَىٰةُ ۗ قُلْ فَأْتُوا۟ بِٱلتَّوْرَىٰةِ فَٱتْلُوهَا إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ

All food was lawful to Bani Israel except what Israel (Jacob) had forbidden himself before the Torah was sent down. Say, ‘Bring the Torah, and read it, should you be truthful.’

Surah Maryam (19), Ayah 58:

أُو۟لَٰئِكَ ٱلَّذِينَ أَنْعَمَ ٱللَّٰهُ عَلَيْهِم مِّنَ ٱلنَّبِيِّينَ مِن ذُرِّيَّةِ آدَمَ وَمِمَّنْ حَمَلْنَا مَعَ نُوحٍۢ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّةِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْرَاءِيلَ وَمِمَّنْ هَدَيْنَا وَٱجْتَبَيْنَآ ۚ…

They are the ones whom Allah has blessed from among the prophets of Adam’s progeny, and from [the progeny of] those We carried with Noah, and from among the progeny of Abraham and Israel (Jacob), and from among those We guided and chose… (the end of this verse obligates a religious prostration).

TenQ:
No problem. Any one can make typo error.

Who is Israel in the Qur'an?
Wasn't he mentioned by Allah in the Quran?

Christianity Etc › Re: Who Deleted This Verse From The Perfectly Preserved Quran Of Muhammad? by Ohyoudidnt: 2:54pm On Aug 07, 2023

https://youtube.com/shorts/aF07AvG4qLQ?feature=share

TenQ:
You haven't upgraded from the low level attack from Ahmed Deedat and Zakir Naik.

Which of these Qur'an is not Qur'an?

Sahih International
Pickthall
Yusuf Ali
Muhsin Khan
Shakir
Dr. Mustafa Khattab
Saheeh International
Abdul Haleem
Abdullah Yusuf Ali
Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din al-Hilali and Muhammad Muhsin Khan

Do you need more?
You don't even know that there are up to 70 English translation of the Qur'an?

Okay Abdul,
Which one of these is the true Arabic Qur'an

Hafs an Aasim
Warsh an Naafi'
Qalun an Naafi'
Al-Duri an Abu Amr
Khalaf an Hamzah
Khallad an Hamzah

Do you need more?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHG8SxmO6xk&pp=ygUXRGlmZmVyZW50IEFyYWJpYyBRdXInYW4%3D

A longer version if you have the patience

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcoMB8nJWmw&t=66s&pp=ygUXRGlmZmVyZW50IEFyYWJpYyBRdXInYW4%3D

Christianity Etc › Re: Who Deleted This Verse From The Perfectly Preserved Quran Of Muhammad? by Ohyoudidnt: 2:17pm On Aug 07, 2023

Not talking about a digital bible. There are many hardcopy Quran with both arabic and english translations.

Wuran?

All Arabs did not speak pure Arabic.
What is now called Modern Standard Arabic (Fosha) is basically based on Quranic Arabic, which is the Arabic of the Quraysh tribe.
All the arabs from southern Yemen to modern day Saudi Arabia, the small Gulf states and tribe living in Iraq and parts of Jordan/Syria had their dialects. Even within the Qureysh there are different dialects.
Prophet Muhammads tribe and most dominant in Mekka back in the days.
This is the dialect adopted in the Uthman standard.

TenQ:
Only because you didn't search for it.

Google play store would have helped you if you are interested in knowledge.

Do you speak Arabic fluently?
Or is Arabic just a decoration for you?

Finally, of the 26 different Arabic Qur'an available, which one is the Wuran of Mohammed?

Because you've changed to topic in its entirety

The Questions had been:
Who deleted the verse of breastfeeding of adult men from the Quran of Allah?

Check the meaning of variation and check the meaning of difference. Are they not synonyms?

Again:
So which one of the 26 Quran did Jibril reveal to Mohammed?

Christianity Etc › Re: Who Deleted This Verse From The Perfectly Preserved Quran Of Muhammad? by Ohyoudidnt: 1:16pm On Aug 07, 2023

Bibles with Hebrew or Greek alongside the English translation are pretty scarce. I personally haven't seen one or no anyone who has.

Is that cost saving or a deliberate ploy to deceive.

TenQ:
Are you caught in your own web of deceit!?

When it is the Quran, it is translation
BUT
When it is the Bible it is NO translation!

But then I ask the question :
Which one of these Arabic Qur'an was revealed to Mohammed

On a serious note, Let us stop this thread. It is boring as it is.
I will certainly invite you when I make another post about Islam

Stop being mischievous

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