₦airaland Forum

[quote author=bk/babe97 link=topic=431316.msg5901136#msg5901136 date=1271404144]wOW, mad poverty!!! So, so, sad!!! Now I get why Ibos resort to drug dealing. kidnapping, human sacrifices, fraud and all other sortsa crimes just to get ahead in the world. Aint nobody tryn to live in no dumpster!!![/quote]Ignorance.

I don't think there is any problem with the bbc showing the down sides of lagos. It's not as if they made up the story. These people exist and deserve a voice.

Kikinki:
He who has ears,let him hear!st. Paul admonished that if we think we'r too sure of ourselves,we should be wary not to fall.talking about the west been more brainy than we are,and there4 we shudn't criticize islamic banking boils down to d fact dat we are short-sighted which has been our bane.we are much afta d immediate pleasure without recourse to the future.these muslims are chronic strategists nd guess what?the world is gearing towards a one world government and we are slowly gettin there riding on the muslims' horseback. Not an iota of God's word will pass,based on this,i dont fink we can alter it.yupeeeee i love this ride, am scared booo.what a neccessary evil.

I didn't get your comments. Please rephrase

@rotimy - thank you for your refreshing honesty.

Mr Bebrief,

Your reaction and responses are very telling.

Four people respond to your post. Two people respond (partly) to the substance of what you posted. Mr TBits even asked your opinion on one of your points. You chose to ignore those.

Instead, you chose to respond to the other two posts that didnt directly relate (in substance) to your post.

You really don't have much to say except fight and name-call.

That sir, says a lot about you.

@frosbel baba

You've lost me on this one oo.

You've soo injected religion into a discussion you say is not religious.

TBits:
[tr]"highest order of moral authority"[/tr]
There is no such thing or person. Jesus is the final Authority.
Jesus was arrested and persecuted. if that's done to the pope, he is simply following the footsteps of Jesus. Don't you think?

Thank you!

bebrief:
Jesus died once, for our sins and is Risen, seated at the right hand of God. Don't you believe that?
The Pope is "the highest order of moral authority on earth" whom we see as the leader of the Church right down from St. Peter the apostle.

You slide in the first quote about Jesus dying for our since and then somehow make the leap to the fact that the pope is the highest order of moral authority as though the two statements are logically consequent.

Damn

MzDarkSkin:
@omo fat i agree that we can forgive the Pope. Honestly I do but we need to kill the cover ups. I'm not feeling the double standard.

I agree.

He apologized for the cover ups too. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/7489455/Popes-apology-You-have-suffered-grievously-and-I-am-truly-sorry.html).

My main problem is with most of the staunch folks here who come out swinging and defending the pope, doing so out of blind loyalty, without really understanding the issues. Thats why you see things like "atheistic bastards", etc.

The truth (reality) is that an apology is about the farthest you're going to get. And you have to realise the importance/significance of a papal apology. For those folk who believe in the infallibility of the pope, and one guy on this forum who actually offered up prayers to the "holy father - benedict", a papal apology shocks their core belief.

@4 Play - You debate in bad faith. The pope himself has apologized in general for the abuses suffered.

@bebrief - atheistic bastards? You are exibiting the classic deflection syndrome. People have a right to call for the arrest of whoever they feel has offended.

remote incident with one or two cases? - no comments.

intense persecution? - you need go to some parts of the world to really know what being persecuted for the sake of the gospel means. Being criticised for shooting yourself in the foot doesn't really count as persecution.

@Dauchman - we're all human and have sinned - the pope has apologized, we should try and move on - agreed.

@nex - Very well said

Broda Yekini

Not a big deal. We like to argue over trivialities. Some federal buildings have it, Some don't. No biggie!

If we hang it in nigeria, doesn't mean anything. When the next person takes charge, the old picture will be removed. No biggie. Doesn't mean we're ruled like Ghaddafi. That's just our way!

Nothing to debate here!

So ?

There is this story in the Bible where Jesus heals one man, the demon-possessed dude. After he was healed, the man was going to follow Jesus. However, Jesus told him not to. "Go home to your family", he said to the man - (Mark 5:18).

I wonder how many Church's today would turn back new "members/followers", and tell them to go somewhere else.

If you've followed the thread, you will see that most of your points have been thoroughly refuted.

I think we both agree on one point: that sadly, pope benedict (cardinal ratzinger) would not be arrested any time soon.

That however is no consolation to the many many lives that have been broken due to this sad episode in the church's history.

Rheinmetal:
W[b]hat most peeps don't get is that the Papacy is an institution, one that dates back 2000 years at that. Cardinal Ratzinger can answer for what Cardinal Ratzinger did (If you can prove that he did anything wrong). On the other hand, the papacy is the Office of the Pope. Pope Benedict XVI has no case to answer on these allegations, or better still can you seperate the man from the office he holds in this case?[/b]

Complete BS.

I have to give you props though. Wonderful sleight of hand. You're a correct magician  

Just change the names around and you have two different people abi? Pope Benedict <> Cardinal Ratzinger abi?

You state that Cardinal Ratzinger can answer for what cardinal ratzinger did ---- except there isn't a cardinal ratzinger anymore! - boy you almost got me on that one.

He has become a new creature aint it? - Ratzinger?, not here, nothing to see here, move it along! smokescreen!!

Respectfully, the rest of your post is equally BS.

@ eldee

No reasonable man would support paedophilia, agreed. Show me anywhere the papacy advocated or shielded paedophiles.

As for the Bishopfry, several Bishops have owned up to 'mishandling' reports brought forward by victims against paedophile priests. Some have resigned in disgrace. Is this a case of the Vatican not putting enough pressure on the recalcitrant ones to follow suit or a case of the Vatican shielding paedophiles? If it is the latter, then the Pope has not lost the moral battle.

Concealment of a serious crime is a crime against the state, but the charges contemplated are for crimes against humanity. I restate that Paedophilia is not a crime against humanity. It would appear that you missed the second point.

You can not try the Pope for reasons aforesaid, So I am afraid there isn't going to be any trial except as you and I have agreed in the Moral Court.

The Bishop of Rome is a Head of State and is accorded full rights of a visiting head of state wherever he goes. At least he's not visiting China. Whether or not the Vatican is recognised by the UN is topic for another day.

Rheinmetal:
Wish I had my chance to make an input before the moralists and catholic-bashers derailed the thread.

That said, the salient issue is that those who wish to argue from a moral pedestal would fail, since the only court of morality I know is my conscience. As wrong as I percieve a certain practice to be, till the law declares it so, it remains right. Can the Pope be arrested in the instance is not a moral question. It is a legal question. Is Paedophilia a crime? Yes! Is it a crime against humanity? According to the UN  charter on Human Rights, No! It is a sexual crime- a crime against an individual. So Dawkins and his ilk calling for the Pope to be tried for crimes against humanity have lost round one moreso where charges that the Pope supressed reports or protected alleged paedos are yet to be proven. Can the Pope be arrested while on a state visit? No! As a visiting head of state he has diplomatic immunity. Dawkins and his ilk has lost round two. 2nd round TKO if you will. End of story!

Pure drivel.

^^^ Lets not do culture wars on this thread bruv.

eldee:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Nothing personal, but I can't be bothered to read your whole thesis. But I already know what to expect.

How many times do I have to explain to you guys??
1. The Pope is not being accused of paedophilia, he's been accused of covering it up from the authorities, and possibly a charge of aiding and abetting.

2. No one said he did anything except the people drafting a case against him, the probably have their evidence, we don't know.

3. The Pope is innocent until proven guilty.

4. Tony Blair is not roaming free, he's facing a trial.

5. By European and American law, paedophilia is a crime, since the Pope is God in the Vatican and Italy, he should stay there if he's scared.

I can't believe the only excuse the Vatican can give is, erm . . . he didn't actually commit paedophilia . . . what happened to their presumed moral superiority that they used to hold on to in the past??

God bless you for that.

So far the various defenses I've heard are:

1. The pope didnt personally abuse anybody - no one has accused him of that.
2. It's the bloddy atheists bringing up the charges - shooting the messengers. Never mind that the atheists are doing what the Church should have done.
3. It's the gays/jews/(insert any other minority here) fault. - pure deflection
4. Everybody covers stuff up - surely, what is bad is bad, no?
5. The Holy father is ,  Holy - these issues being highlighted today have to do with things that happened before he became pope.
6. There was nothing he could have done about the abuses - Errr, may be he couldnt stop the first, second, etc cases,  but some of those priests ended up re-offending and molesting many many more people AFTER the then cardinal found out about their crimes.
7. He who is without sin should cast the first stone - Pure ignorance. How about reading the part that says "to whom much is given, much is expected"?

Sadly the reality on ground is that nothing will happen to the pope. Legally it is a minefield to arrest and try him anywhere. He can't be tried while he is a pope and since pope's don't (usually) resign, he will probably avoid the humiliation of an arrest/trial. However, make no mistake of the damage this incident has done to the catholic church's reputation.

arrrgghhhhh! - why? why? why?

ayettymama:
^^ not really, how could he have stopped what happened from happening?? all he did was stop people from finding out

it wouldnt have made been good for the reputaion of the church if he didnt

the royal family ova here do the same all the time- jack the ripper? anotha gay craddle-robber? the children murderers?

the government of nigeria- with all thier scams and wotnots- do u not think they all know?
there are always cover ups and conspiracies

maybe not in the people best interest but there u have it

lolz even i scoffed at the idea- they wouldnt dare-pope prolly has more followers than this country put togetha!

1. The pope surely has a duty of care to his people, no?

2. Lets assume he couldn't have done anything about it as you say. Why stop the people with the power to do something about it by covering it up?

3. I guess the answer to 2 above is in your next sentence. He did it to protect the reputation of the church right? - Answer me this, what in your opinion has done more to harm the reputation of the church - censuring a handful or recalcitrant priest early on, showing leadership and providing self-censorship OR having the leader of the catholic church in the current position he is now, having to defend himself against the almost daily news stream of attrocious acts commited in the past by his subordinates?

I agree with you, there are always cover ups. Another reality is that some people are above the law. The pope I guess happens to be one of such people.

frosbel:
I am 100% for what you said.

All Paedophiles must be rounded up in the catholic church, sacked and jailed.

But, until the Pope himself has been accused of Paedophilia, he should be left alone.

Is he now responsible for the sexual urges of his priests ? Which is why I think the catholic church missed the road here when they disallow marriage of priests and nuns , all false doctrine.

The bible supports this as per below :

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and DOCTRINES OF DEVILS; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a red hot iron; Forbidding to marry ., "
(I Timothy 4:1-2).

No. He's not responsible for the sexual urges of his priests. However he is responsible for the wellbeing of his flock, to protect them from ravenous wolves. In that regard, he failed.

@oyb: that's not what frosbel is saying at all.

frosbel:
“Simon Peter answered, ‘You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.’ Jesus replied, ‘You are blessed, Simon son of John, because my Father in heaven has revealed this to you. You did not learn this from any human being. Now I say to you that you are Peter (which means ‘rock’), and upon this rock I will build my church, and all the powers of hell will not conquer it.’” Matthew 16:16-18 (NLT)

Some say these verses identify the Roman Catholic church as the true church of God. They claim Peter was the first pope, and the Vatican is built upon his final resting place in Rome. But this is a clear misinterpretation of the context and meaning of Jesus’ words.

Jesus didn’t intend to build his church upon Peter, a fallen human being. Rather, He announced He would build it upon this concept:

“You (Jesus) are the Messiah, the Son of the Living God”

This is the central truth upon which every person’s faith should be built. It reveals that salvation isn’t found in buildings or church names. Neither is it found in the traditions or the doctrines of man, or through good works or a good heart.

Salvation is found exclusively through Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God.

Everything Must Point to Jesus

For members of the one true church, Jesus is central to all things. Any teaching, belief, tradition, or doctrine that fails to glorify Jesus is false.

“Jesus told him, ‘I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.’” John 14:6 (NLT)

Jesus did not say, “This or that church is the way, the truth, and the life.” He said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life.”

If you want to call yourself a Christian, Christ must be the basis of your faith, not the pronouncements of a church. In fact, the very definition of the word Christian is “follower of Christ,” and Jesus Himself explicitly stated His criteria for all who wish to follow Him:

“Then he said to the crowd, ‘If any of you wants to be my follower, you must turn from your selfish ways, take up your cross daily, and follow me. If you try to hang on to your life, you will lose it. But if you give up your life for my sake, you will save it.’” Luke 9:23-24 (NLT)

To be a true Christian, you must replace your own selfish ambition and worldly desires with the will of God. Christ must be the dominate influence in your life, not human traditions. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for their insistence that others follow their rigid and burdensome traditions:

“Jesus replied, ‘You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you, for he wrote, ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.’ For you ignore God’s law and substitute your own tradition.’ Then he said, ‘You skillfully sidestep God’s law in order to hold on to your own tradition.’” Mark 7:6-9 (NLT)

Living for Christ requires suffering and an unyielding willingness to sacrifice everything that is not of Christ in order to serve Him:

“He said to another person, ‘Come, follow me.’ The man agreed, but he said, ‘Lord, first let me return home and bury my father.’ But Jesus told him, ‘Let the spiritually dead bury their own dead! Your duty is to go and preach about the Kingdom of God.’ Another said, ‘Yes, Lord, I will follow you, but first let me say good-bye to my family.’ But Jesus told him, ‘Anyone who puts a hand to the plow and then looks back is not fit for the Kingdom of God.’” Luke 9:59-62 (NLT)

Nothing is inherently bad about burying one’s father or saying goodbye to one’s family. However, the true Christian is outfitted with tunnel vision, his eyes focused solely on Jesus Christ. The true Christian doesn’t let worldly pursuits distract from the Lord’s will.

Few stories from the Gospels make this as clear as the story of the rich man who approached Jesus asking how to receive eternal life:

“Looking at the man, Jesus felt genuine love for him. ‘There is still one thing you haven’t done,’ he told him. ‘Go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.’ At this the man’s face fell, and he went away sad, for he had many possessions.” Mark 10:21-22 (NLT)

This man possessed great earthly wealth, and he allowed his love for this wealth to distract him from what should have been his primary pursuit: the Kingdom of God. If you want to follow Jesus Christ, you must never allow anything else to take priority over His will. That includes church doctrine.

Jesus As High Priest of the Church

The one true church of God is not dependent on a worldly leader as its final authority on spiritual matters. The true church of God gives final authority to its High Priest, Jesus Christ:

“So Christ has now become the High Priest over all the good things that have come. He has entered that greater, more perfect Tabernacle in heaven, which was not made by human hands and is not part of this created world. With his own blood – not the blood of goats and calves – he entered the Most Holy Place once for all time and secured our redemption forever.” Hebrews 9:11-12 (NLT)

Only worldly churches seek out human counsel as a final authority. When they do this, one blind man leads another, and they both fall in a ditch.

If this is the case, where can mankind turn for wisdom in a time of confusion?

God has sent us a Counselor, the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit

If earthly organizations are not responsible for salvation, then who are the members of the one true church of God? No matter what worldly church a person attends (if any), the only way they can become members of the one true church of God is if they allow the Holy Spirit to enter their lives. Members of the one true church of God must be born again. Jesus explained this to Nicodemus nearly 2,000 years ago:

“Jesus replied, ‘I tell you the truth, unless you are born again, you cannot see the Kingdom of God.’ ‘What do you mean?’ exclaimed Nicodemus. ‘How can an old man go back into his mother’s womb and be born again?’ Jesus replied, ‘I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit. Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life. So don’t be surprised when I say, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can’t tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can’t explain how people are born of the Spirit.’” John 3:3-8 (NLT)

When you believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of your life, accepting His blood as payment for your sins, you are filled with the Holy Spirit. You then become part of the Body of Christ, the one true church of God:

“For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.” Romans 8:14 (NLT)

The Holy Spirit is the very Spirit of Christ. It is the means by which He identifies the members of His church:

“It is God who enables us, along with you, to stand firm for Christ. He has commissioned us, and he has identified us as his own by placing the Holy Spirit in our hearts as the first installment that guarantees everything he has promised us.” 2 Corinthians 1:21-22 (NLT)

If belonging to Christ requires the Holy Spirit, how can you know for sure if you are indwelt by the Holy Spirit? This is a good question, and it requires a personal examination of your relationship with God.

The presence of the Holy Spirit in your life will lead to great transformation. Being “born again,” you will become a new creation, meaning the sinful desires of your old life will give way to the desires of Christ. It isn’t necessary to be struck by lightning or to have some Hollywood epiphany. The transformation may be gradual, but it will be noticeable:

“This means that anyone who belongs to Christ has become a new person. The old life is gone; a new life has begun!” 2 Corinthians 5:17 (NLT)

The Holy Spirit provides wisdom and council to those who listen, and the Holy Spirit gives glory to Christ. This is how you will know if the Holy Spirit is your advisor:

“When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future. He will bring me glory by telling you whatever he receives from me. All that belongs to the Father is mine; this is why I said, ‘The Spirit will tell you whatever he receives from me.” John 16:13-15 (NLT)

Does the Spirit within you glorify Jesus and the Word of God? Does it remind you that you’re a sinner in need of Christ’s saving grace? Does it continually speak to you, directing you to follow God’s commandments and love your neighbor as yourself? If so, this is confirmation that the Spirit of God is within you.

The Holy Spirit also reveals God’s will to members of His church.

“But it was to us that God revealed these things by his Spirit. For his Spirit searches out everything and shows us God’s deep secrets. No one can know a person’s thoughts except that person’s own spirit, and no one can know God’s thoughts except God’s own Spirit. And we have received God’s Spirit (not the world’s spirit), so we can know the wonderful things God has freely given us. When we tell you these things, we do not use words that come from human wisdom. Instead, we speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit’s words to explain spiritual truths. But people who aren’t spiritual can’t receive these truths from God’s Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can’t understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means. Those who are spiritual can evaluate all things, but they themselves cannot be evaluated by others. For, ‘Who can know the Lord’s thoughts? Who knows enough to teach him?’ But we understand these things, for we have the mind of Christ.” 1 Corinthians 2:10-16 (NLT)

The Holy Spirit also reminds us of the teachings of Jesus Christ. In this way, we are never without His counsel:

“But when the Father sends the Advocate as my representative – that is, the Holy Spirit – he will teach you everything and will remind you of everything I have told you.” John 14:26 (NLT)

Salvation

Many earthly churches and religious organizations claim to have a monopoly on salvation. But only one path to salvation exists, and it has nothing to do with the doctrines of earthly churches and religious organizations:

“If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. As the Scriptures tell us, ‘Anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.’ Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They have the same Lord, who gives generously to all who call on him. For ‘Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’” Romans 10:9-13 (NLT)

Salvation is equally available to both Jew and Gentile. Even though they may observe different religious traditions, both are saved when they “call on the name of the Lord.” For salvation comes not from the traditions of man or from his good works, but only from God’s mercy through the blood of Jesus Christ:

“He saved us, not because of the righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He washed away our sins, giving us a new birth and new life through the Holy Spirit.” Titus 3:5 (NLT)

The ability to wash away sins and give new life through the Holy Spirit is NOT a power enjoyed by self-righteous humans or earthly religious groups. It is the exclusive domain of God Himself:

“God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.” Ephesians 2:8-9 (NLT)
Salvation is not a complicated matter. It doesn’t require years of theological study. It doesn’t require good works or religious rituals. No traditions of man are necessary, nor is membership in a religious organization, or weekly attendance in a fancy building.

All that is necessary is a personal relationship with your Creator:

“And this is the way to have eternal life – to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth.” John 17:3 (NLT)

This relationship is available to everyone willing to trust in Christ – don’t let anyone convince you otherwise! For what man can close a door which God has opened?

Conclusion

Members of the one true church of God live by the laws of God’s Kingdom, not by the human laws of this earthly kingdom. This isn’t an indictment of the churches here on earth, only a reminder that a church is not an end unto itself. A person’s focus should be on Jesus Christ, and a church is worthless unless it aids in furthering this purpose.

The one true church lives through the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit resides in the hearts of individuals of varying circumstances. Some are rich; some are poor. They are people of many different races, languages, and nations. And they are people of many different religious upbringings, members of many different earthly religious denominations. Some are Catholic. Some are Protestant. Some are neither.

Do you find this concept difficult to accept?

Then ask yourself where your true allegiance lies. Is your ultimate authority a religious group? Or is your ultimate authority Jesus Christ? For a person can only obey one or the other:

“Don’t you realize that whatever you choose to obey becomes your master?” Romans 6:16 (NLT)

Do you believe the church you attend on Sunday is infallible? Do you believe a particular denomination is the only path to truth and salvation? If so, you’re putting your faith in a human created organization and not Jesus Christ. According to Jesus, this is not the road to Him:

“No one can serve two masters. For you will hate one and love the other; you will be devoted to one and despise the other.” Matthew 6:24 (NLT)


http://brittgillette.com/WordPress/?p=62

Amen, Amen and AMEN!!! - SElah! (end of discussion) - you can close this thread now

splashbaby:
Do people take pleasure in writing nonsense or they just don't ready it at all, ethics demand the pope should be respected whether muslim pagan or pentecoster, nobody can be too sure of his or her faith.

Errrr, I'm not even sure how to respond to you. Did you actually follow the thread?

The pope should be respected, yes. Does that mean people should start "praying" to the pope? Is the pope your God?

But seriously I dont understand how some people can be sooo batshit crazy.

An entire organization is accused of decades and decades of systemic violations of a sexual nature against little boys and the best defense some people can come up with is BS arguments about blasphemies, vicar-on-earth, curses, touch-not-the-lords-anointed, its-the-atheists-fault, its-the-gay-people-that-did-it-first, etc etc.

Darn!

^^^ loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

Dominoifet:
Both bead counting morons.

^^^^ So your prayer above ("Holy father forgive them , " was to the Pope ?

@Frosbel,  Thank you,  I wanted to first clarify who he was referring to as "father". You know these ppl can be deliberately ambiguous at times.

godello:
Holy father,forgive them for they do not know what they are doing.

Is your prayer directed to God or the pope ?

[quote author=naija_swag link=topic=428850.msg5882360#msg5882360 date=1271153112]Those atheists.If this arrest comes to fruition,we are sure gonna have a clash of civilization on our hands.The outcome will be bizarre.[/quote]Right. The truth is the arrest is probably not going to happen. It's more likely just an attempt to raise the profile of the story (some chap tried to perform a citizens arrest on Robert Mugabe once). The outcome will indeed be bizarre.

But my question is why not? - cause he's the pope? - Jesus Christ, the Son of God was arrested! (and He didn't even do anything wrong).