ChinenyeN:
Odo nunu?

It's as if people are neglecting the historical context of how "Igbo" people even became "Igbo" people to begin with. Igbo is first and foremost a linguistic classification. The ethnic identity is after the fact, and it isn't something that everyone accepts. So, if your community's vernacular is by definition an Igbo speech form, then you are by definition classified as an Igbo-speaking person. Ethnic identity is a different discussion.

I slightly disagree.
If Igbo is firstly a linguistic classification and "Igbo" identity being a secondary fact to that, then that makes nonsense of ethnic origins and kinship. Even more it totally obscures the fact that unrelated peoples do not speak the same language and must use an interpreter to communicate. Apparently the Obi of Agbor should have some explaining to do on how his alleged "Edoid" people came about the name Ikenchukwu or who introduced them to the concept of a "chukwu" in the first place. You know, with Bini that almost overshadowed them just being by the corner.

This topic while being a bit overflogged IMO, points to the careless disregard for history by people who should know better.
A man as learned as Elechi Amadi with one of the strongest (Amadi is short for Amadioha) Igbo names, concocting a hitherto unverifiable
ancestry to some mythical Bini migrant, you know complete with unverified dates and unverified names.
Or this hilarious scenario where native peoples who were culturally and politically influenced by their powerful neighbours, take it to
mean that they are now actually descended from their powerful neighbours.
Never mind that influence is visible in less than 10% of their socio-cultural life.

I dunno how familiar you are with "Igbo" history, but the name/etnonym "Igbo" was not invented or adopted.
It is a native name the "Igbo" speaking peoples called themselves. It means "the people".
Cue the numerous names of peoples and places prefixed and suffixed by -Igbo and you should have a better understanding.
Amaigbo, Igboezue,Igbokwe, Igbo(itself is a popular surname) etc.

If your assertion is accepted, it indeed dodges the question of how allegedly unrelated peoples began speaking a mutually intelligible
language and derived dialects of it, or how they adopted similar cultures and traditions etc.
So I disagree, the colonial masters and their anthropologists/academicians did not designate or invent "Igbo" primarily as a linguistic classifier,
it is first and foremost the most popular name/label by which the "Igbo" speaking peoples identified themselves.

Another dumb African of low intelligence
I forgive myself for indulging you in the first place.
This topic and the issues I raised are obviously way beyond you.
Not to worry, the beautiful thing about knowledge is it can exist side by side with ignorance, even appalling ignorance.

gbosaa:


Amokachi's grand dad and his dad played for idoma United and they were legends.

Kanu's great grand dad and his dad played for Awonmanma international fc. Kanu's grand dad hit the bamboo post with a ferocious shot in 1926, the post broke and killed the goal keeper while the ball killed 20 people watching behind the post.

Where did you think they got their skills from. JJ's great great grand dad was sacked in 1880 because he embarrassed five British men who couldn't touch the ball for 20 mins during a match between Royal Niger company and the railway team he was playing for.

Laffing like a fool over here.
Officially you made my day!

Almost forgot about this thread.
After going through your repeating the same thing over and over, its clear I'd have to retort to rehashing my points too for you.
You see you appear to lack intelligence.
I can see you are driven by a need to "measure up"...just like many of your ignorant ilk who go on and on about African histories they
know next to nothing about.
I will rehash in plain language my points for your benefit.

Zarahanair:


ha hahahah,, first of all, if you don't like "quoting Europeans" why are you writing in English, a European language, and yoself quoting or referencing European works? What sources are YOU using in your "questions"? List them please, and do not use any European sources. Let's apply your own standard- to yourself. lmao.. And I have no "other" user name.

First off, it was not the Europeans who are "claiming" ancient Egypt using "sources" foreign to them.
THEY conquered and ruled Egypt...severally under the Greeks, Romans, French and English.
And they have better records and histories about Egypt than anyone in sub saharan Africa.
You could start by disproving that point.
To illustrate the fact that this topic is way over you, the Europeans have the AVAILABLE WRITTEN works of European historians
like Herodotus, Aristotle, Socrates, Julius Caesar to reference when they discuss Egypt or any other peoples they had historical dealings with.
So they have never had any need to quote you, your grandfather or your village chiefs...who by the way they know NEVER left any WRITTEN records available ANYWHERE for referencing.
Your colonial masters produced comprehensive and publicly available "intelligence reports" on all the tribes/ethnic groups they pacified.
Their records, photographs and comments are largely what you and your ilk fall back on when they need academic references on precolonial history.
So, the joke is on you. The onus is on you to prove to me why you cannot tell your story without referencing "external" or "foreign" sources.
A mere challenge to tell me what any of the over 250 ethnic groups in Nigeria or any of the ethnic groups in sub Saharan africa call the Sphinx was of course conveniently ignored in your frenzy to "debunk" my assertions.

Zarahanair:

As to your "questions" lets expose your nonsense, but first your absurdities and lack of elementary knowledge are to be exposed:


he WHOLE WORLD KNOWS the history of Kush/Axum/Egypt...and it is not synonymous with sub saharan africa. Except maybe in your parallel fantasy african content.

You are hopeless. Learn some elementary geography. Axum IS in Sub-Saharan Africa, as is part of the kingdom of Kush. And the foundational population of ancient Egypt came from south of the Sahara as credible anthropologists and archaeologists show, and even non-specialist classicists like Mary Lefkowitz acknowledges. Sorry, you have just been debunked. But let's school you further..
Or when are you gonna show the equivalents of the temples found in Nubia TODAY...in ya fantasy sub saharan west africa?
Your "talking point" here fails because it is hypocritical. You conveniently don't apply the same approach to indigenous ancient northern Europe. No equivalent of the huge Greek temples appear in indigenous ancient northern Europe either. There is no equivalent of the Parthenon for example in ancient Sweden home of ultra pure white "Nordics". Massive carved statutes to Zeus do not appear in ancient Germany either, another "Nordic" poster boy. So if you are gonna play the hypocritical game and try to imply that West Africa needs such things for "validation" then the same must be applied to indigenous ancient northern Europe, which does not have any of such "validating" constructions either. "Sub-Saharan" Africa by the way produced the largest single carved stone monolith in human history (John Reader-1998- Africa: The Biography of a continent)

You are the one who has been playing the validation game. Not me. I have reiterated that going the route you lots are following is just
playing "catch up" with the whites. A son of a rich man only needs to display his father's wealth. No need for long arguments or theses or validation.
The Swedes you mentioned do not go about claiming Rome or her imperial history.
Neither are they going about coming up with claims and counter claims about the Greek Pantheon.
The temples of Odin and Freya at Upsalla are there for anyone who wants to know about ancient Swedish history.

You lots are the ones trying so hard to prove ancestory/links between ancient Egypt, Nubia...and the numerous ethnic groups in sub Saharan African.

The fact that you consider Kush, Axum, Nubia...a people long gone from the pages of living history, whose only claim to having lived are the numerous artifacts they left...are an extension of the living sub Saharan peoples of Africa...show the level of your inferiority complex.
Let me help you out. A better way to "expose" my so-called "lack of elementary knowledge" would go along these lines:
"Come to Douala,Bini, Kano, Kumasi, Ouagadogou,Kinshasa and see the same pyramids available in Nubia. The same hieroglyphs you see in the tombs of Kerma and Nubia are faithfully replicated all across the peoples of the african continent. You would show and prove that the same way pyramids and megalithic structures found in Egypt were found to be the same as the ones found in Nubia...that existing structures in TODAYS sub-saharan Africa prove the unbroken lineage of the inheritors of ancient Egyptian and Nubian greatness.
Infact you would also upload one of those your mosaic mashups comparing the hieroglyphs and pyramids found in Nubia and OTHER places in SUB SAHARAN africa.
Care to take on the challenge?

Zarahanair:

Now let's get to your so-called "questions"..

1) The ancient Egyptians and Nubians all had a stellar religion. They worshipped the planets, stars and constellations. We've always been curious as to what existing African peoples have in relation to ancient Egypt. So what do Black Africans call Sothis and how did they calculate the heliacal rising of Sopdet(Greek Sothis, Roman Sirius)?

Clueless one- the ancient Egyptians ARE Black Africans, as are the Nubians, as are Ethiopians, as shown time and time again by credible mainstream scholars. There goes your "talking point Number 1".. lmao..


2) The Greeks had dealings with ancient Egyptians and ancient Greek historians have documented histories of Egyptian kings,religion, priests and cultural practices. If as you asserted Black Africans gave the Europeans civilization, then the source of a river should have even more waters flowing...right? So can we see Black African written history or hieoroglyphs or some oral history about the ancient Europeans? You know since almost all known civilized peoples kept written records...Africa should not be an exception. After all the Egyptians and Nubians kept records?

I did not "assert" that "black africans gave Europeans civilization" - so come off that fake strawman you are setting up to "refute." You aren't fooling anyone with that nonsense. But let's play along- for your own strawman trips you up. Yes the black Africans, including Ethiopians, who by the way are "sub-Saharan" did keep records, and they are recorded in numerous tombs and temples in the Nile Valley, along with surviving papyri, books and admin records, and said records do mention European locations with which they traded like Greece for example. Whoops- there goes your "talking point Number 2".. lol..


3) Give me the name for any of these planets in any African language or culture (Mars, Mercury, Venus or Jupiter).

The Black Africans of the Nile Valley recorded said planets in their own language on the walls of tombs, temples and admin records as already noted above.. Look up the Egyptian and Nubian languages yourself. The burden of proof is on you. And the peoples of Ethiopia have long identified said planets in their own ancient Geez language. Look it up yourself, no one is going to spoonfeed you.
https://tseday./2008/09/14/ethiopian-astronomy/
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/world/heavens.html#obj99.1

There you go...The Black Africans of the Nile Valley
Are you not proud of the Wolofs, Fulanis, Mandinkas, Bantus, Yorubas and Zulus?
Are the The Black Africans of the Nile Valley the only people with any history, culture or achievements worth celebrating?
Let me show you how ignorant and nonsensical your postulations are:
1) You still have not told me what the Wolofs or Yorubas call Venus or Jupiter. On demand you can actually google what the Indians, Chinese, Aztec, Mayas, Babylonians, Persians, Arabs, Romans, Greeks,Chinese...and Ethiopians...call any of the known planets in the solar system.
You know as much as I do that you DO NOT KNOW what either the Hausas, Yorubas, Igbos, Efiks, Ashante call any of the known planets.
Or maybe you want to share your knowledge?
2) You asserted that "black africans gave Europeans civilization" by your all the proofs and claims of your Afrocentric postulations, which I'd rather not rehash.
3) Why are you just stuck on only the Ethiopians, Nubians and Egyptians? Are they the only groups of BLACK PEOPLES living in Africa?
Does your own ethnic group not count for anything?

Zarahanair:

4) Show me a written book,religious work,scholarly work, court records or historical work done in Nsibidi by Black Africans extant anywhere in Black African that was done before the Europeans came. Mind you such a body of work must be easily verifiable by going to the said place where Nsibidi was used as a form of writing. Give dates, verifiable dates. Also do not quote any European.

I have already given credible scholarship that testifies to the use of Nsibidi for histories, court records etc, before Europeans came. It is quite enough. The burden of proof is on you to disprove what the scholars report. And If you are so concerned by EUropean sources- then be consistent and apply the same rule to yourself- you should not be using them either. As to Nsibidi:


"However, such systems are also found in areas where Muslim influence has been less strong or is unlikely. Thus, among the Ashanti and other Akan-speaking peoples of Ghana and Cote D'Ivorie, where gold was of great political, economic and symbolic significance, many goldweights bore signs that indicated their precise ponderal value; other signs corresponded to proverbs, while others represented concepts (for example, certain aspects of the Supreme Being). The nsibidi system of the Ekoi, Igbo and Ibibio peoples of the Cross River area of present-day Nigeria used over a thousand signs to represent a considerable number of concepts as well as some sounds. Nsibidi was used to record court cases and convey complex messages, including warnings in wartime, and for summarizing folktales and personal narratives; its pictograms thus constituted a true writing system. As with the Malian systems of graphic signs, knowledge of nsibidi was often acquired within the initiation societies, but unlike the Malian ones, nsibidi signs were often tattooed on the body or dramatically enacted through gestures."
--Kevin Shllingford (2004) "Literacy and Indigenous Scripts: Pre-colonial West Africa" - Encyclopedia of African History


and

Historian Ogbu Kalu described the functions of the Nsibidi literature more broadly to comprise “identity label, public notice, private warning, declaration of taboos [and] amorous messages, reckoning of goods and money, and method of keeping of records and decorations.”
Kalu, O. 1980. “Writing in Pre-Colonial Africa: A Case Study of Nsibidi.” In African Cultural Development. O. Kalu, ed., 76-83.

Another nonsensical write up that ends up dodging the question.
If you claim to be a master's degree or a bachelor's degree holder, when challenged to produce your thesis or project work...would it make sense to start quoting the works of "other students" or "colleagues of yours" as evidence that you actually completed a final year thesis?
Why not produce a printed copy of your thesis to silence all doubters once and for all?
I am familiar with Ibibio, Efik, Igbo and Kalabari lands. I understand the culture and history. I am even a fluent speaker of several Nigerian languages. You on the other hand, appear to have acquired your knowledge off the internet. Your knowledge of the so called Nsibidi is off the mark.
That the Ekpe society used Nsibidi to codify messages is known to me.
That the veves of Haitian voodoo were imported and developed by Igbo and Kalabari slaves is also known to me.
But the point apparently eludes you.
You do not know anyone who writes in Nsibidi. If you had to read a text written in Nsibidi today to save your life, you'd be a dead man.
If you had the option of calling a life line to ask someone with a knowledge of Nsibidi to help you out...you'd also probably be a dead man.
Because Nsibidi never functioned as a general system of writing or record keeping for the Ejagham, Ekoi, Efik, Ibibio and Igbo peoples who used it.
There is no single record, book or scroll...with a name...available today that was written in Nsibidi before, during or after precolonial times.
Maybe you could be the first author to write in Nsibidi. Care to take on the challenge?

Zarahanair:

Trying to set up fake strawman arguments by claiming some other user account started them, and that you are "replying" to "refute" them fails miserably. They still remain strawmen. Deal with the data at hand, which debunks your claims and approach.

Sadly you refuted nothing and only spoke from a position of gross ignorance.
I was expecting a solid rebuttal of my so called "straw man" arguments.
You appear not to know what a straw man argument is.
All the questions I posed could simply have been answered in a straight forward manner...TO DEMONSTRATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE.
Rather you ended up quoting other peoples research and slinging as usual a mish mash of Google search results.
I speak from a position of direct knowledge.
I have given you several instances of African history, religion, esoteric practices and culture.
I do not need any European reference to tell you the devotees of Olokun of the Binis, Olokun of the Dahomeys and Yorubas, the Owu Mmiri of the Igbos...always wear white and have worship sessions where they regularly go in to trance to channel Olokun.

I do not need any European reference to tell you of the divination skills of the Ifa practitioners of the Yorubas.
I can tell you that all an Ifa diviner needs to draw up your horoscope or birth chart is your name and your mother's name.
On the other hand, diviners and astrologers from Europe or India will need your full name, gender, birth town, exact longitude and latitude
of your birth location to draw up your birth horoscope.
This is even before they attempt a prediction of your life path.
An Ifa practitioner can actually talk to your subconscious mind to get direct information about your destiny on earth, and give a very accurate
description of your temperament/personality without having met you before.

I can tell you of the correspondences between the different deities and planets, plants and phenomena.
I can give you without any reference to some Western styled university scholar details about the astronomy and astrology of today's Ethiopia.
You on the other hand have yet to tell me what the OTHER NUMEROUS ETHNIC GROUPS in SUB SAHARAN AFRICA call the zodiac or the planets!
Do the Ashantes, Zulus or Hausas speak Amharic? Is the culture of the Oromos the same as that of the Masai?

You would be hard pressed and left grasping for straws if I asked you to tell me why Ogun worshippers wear red or why the symbolism of all African secret societies always involve a woman as a central figure.
Are you an initiate of any African cult? Do you have first hand knowledge of why initiates of the Earth Goddess always use a leopard or lion totem?
You simply lack knowledge about Africa and you are the one who needs schooling.
I DO KNOW WHY ancient Egyptians had to be the black peoples of Africa.
And I DO KNOW what group of BLACK PEOPLES they were.
You sadly lack that knowledge and have to rely on hearsay, European historians and Google to learn what your forefathers in Africa never knew about.
The onus is on you to prove me wrong.

Ishilove:

Well, I've grown up among people who don't identify with Igbos. My entire clan and quarters, and every other ukwuani person I know do not identify with Igbos, so I have never seen myself as igbo.

Maybe it's the negative stereotypical behaviour accorded to the average Igbo man, ie inordinate greed, selfishness and excessive love of money.

Sorry dear, but this submission of yours is not very intelligent. No offense.
Let me prove to you why i said so.
Lets say you attended Queens college in lagos and were part of the 1995 graduating set.
That history of your set and everyone who was your school mate… both seniors and juniors is set in stone.
You cannot in 2016 change the story of who topped your class in jss 1, jss 3 or ss 2.
You cannot retell the story of perpetual late comers to morning assembly.… everyone knows whom.
You cannot claim to be what you were not during your stay at school.
Other schoolmates of yours shared those moments, histories with you.
It is not subject to your unilateral modification by virtue of that single fact.

Now to the nitty gritty of the matter.
You cannot wake up in say year 2002 and claim to "identify" with say Corona college instead of Queens college, and say cos of reasons xyz, that infact you now are an alumnus of Corona college.
Naaa, it does not work that way.
You can choose to disassociate with ur former classmates or coursemates, and have nothing to do with them. Lets say u find them to be a bunch of wankers. Thats ur prerogative and choice.
BUT…. You cannot falsify or modify history you share with other people… on your own.
That is either symptomatic of an identity crisis or just plain silliness. No offense.

Let me break it down.
For whatever historical reasons or events, out of all the 250 tribes/ethnic groups in Nigeria, Ukwuani shares more… in terms of language, culture and tradition with the ethnic group known as Igbo.
You cannot claim that Nwachukwu in Ukwuani is not the same as Nwachukwu in Awka.
"Ote ofe" in Ukwuani means the exact same thing as "ote ofe" in say Enugu ezike.
The names of your forebears, villages, towns and whatnot all clear indicate what can only be identified as Igbo.
The stream of precolonial history has landed Ukwuani precisely where she is now.
That history is not even shared with her Isoko, Urhobo and Ijaw neighbours as much as it is shared with the peoples far flung as Arochukwu.
These facts cannot be contested.

Ukwuani language and culture has survived in its present form as a result of WHOM her indigenes were and not WHOM they identified with.
The claim to be or not to be "Igbo" is really an exercise in self inflicted identity crisis. My opinion.
The nitty gritty of the matter is that history has already identified Ukwuani, Ika and the so called Anioma peoples. You really had no input in the establishment of that fact.

It is the same reason why Emir Sanusi today cannot claim to be a descendant of Sarkin Rumfa of Kano. Even though Sanusi's great grand fathers conquered Kano, chased out or murdered the Hausa rulers and established the Fulani emirate of Kano, they did not share in the history that was pre Jihad Kano.

You know the funny thing about history?
When the custodians chose to speak up, the security of future generations who otherwise thought they were secured their positions will be found to be on shaky ground.

Let me give you examples.
Ogiamien of Bini and the Oba of Bini.
The Windsor ruling family of England and their German ancestry.
Ofcourse these are high level examples, but think about what the future sons and daughters of Ukwuani will be grappling with when better means of ascertaining ancestry and historical origins definitely will be common place. That is assuming events do not force Ukwuani's neighbours to remind them of their history before the whiteman came calling.

Just my opinions ofcourse.

ChinenyeN:
PabloAfricanus, the use of "Igbo" to refer to an ethnic group was first done by Europeans. It was documented several times by Europeans that an overwhelming majority of incoming slaves from the hinterland expressed no previous knowledge of the term "Igbo" or the idea of an "Igbo" ethnic community.

Baikie, a naval doctor who sailed with the Royal Navy on two Niger River expeditions claimed in his report to have had trouble finding those who claimed to be "Igbo", despite the fact that he was surrounded on both sides of the Niger by communities we will now, in modern times, call "Igbo" or "Igbo-speaking". This was in 1856. In 1854, a German missionary working with freed "Igbo" slaves in Sierra Leone noted that to his surprise, only a small fraction of the Sierra Leone freed slave population admitted to knowing the term "Igbo" before meeting Europeans, but they still did not claim an "Igbo" identity. The remaining majority of the freed slave population shared that the term "Igbo" was completely unknown to them until they learned it directly from Europeans.

Lastly, most Europeans who wrote about an "Igbo" identity never stepped foot in the hinterland. This idea of a precolonial "Igbo" identity is misinformation. So, let it be made abundantly clear. The existence of the term "Igbo" is not in question. However, how the term was used is the issue. There are some who knew the term precolonially and some who did not, but even among those who knew it, it was not an ethnonym.

It was not until the period of colonial rule (period of intelligence reports) that Europeans began to realize that there was no "Igbo" ethnic identity.

You also mentioned a bunch of Igbo "clans", one of which happens to be mine (Ngwa). Having been versed in my people's oral traditions and folk tales, I can confidently state that not a single one of our traditions uses the term "Igbo", neither was the term "Igbo" used as a term of identification in our culture. In fact, any knowledgeable Ngwa person will tell you that we did not learn of "Igbo" until colonial rule.

Fair enough. Your points are equally valid.
But you skipped these parts of my question
when did the peoples speaking "Owerri", "Isuama","Ngwa", "Idemili", "Awka", "Nri" etc. dialects spread across the landmass now known as SE Nigeria start using the phrases "onye igbo", "asusu igbo" and "ndi igbo" ?

You know in fairness to the Ikas/Aniomas, they were the first recorded ones who used the word "onye igbo" to describe peoples east of the Niger speaking mutually intelligible languages.
Till today, Onitsha folks call their next door neighbours Obosi "nwa onye igbo".
Oguta folks still call everyone else apart from their EzeChima cousins "onye igbo".
So there is an angle you might approach this discussion from and people like chukzyblingz and the rest of the Igbo deniers would be absolutely right. Cos they were the ones who used the word "Igbo" first as an ethnonym, but never on themselves.

In my opinion, the "Igbo" speaking peoples did not have the word "Igbo" invented for them.
When an Ngwa man found himself say in Aboh trading say in the 1750s, the term "onye igbo" used as an identifier would not be lost on him.
When an Opobo missionary preacher came calling to say Owerri, the question "i na asu igbo?" or phrase "asusu igbo" would not be lost on the Owerri natives.
The widespread use as an ethnonym came later on. On that I am in agreement with you.

oweniwe:


Calm down bro.....

No be fight

Apparently you have never lived in Ikwerre land before when land tussles between sons of the soil, riverine Ijaws and "Igbo" migrants
was in vogue.
Or you have never heard of Relechi Ramadi ( as some funny poster helped him complete the transformation) or the late Kunirim Ossai, Emeka Esogbue and their Igbo speaking but Bini descended theories?
There was a time when it was the biggest personal historical hobby I embarked on when I had spare time...this whole Igbo/Bini stuff.
I tell you, the resentment and hatred is real.
The reasons why I have not been able to fathom though.
Used to think it was because of Niger delta oil, but then Imo state has been receiving payments from petrodollar sales and Anambra, Abia, Enugu and Ebonyi folks are yet to start "claiming" a part of Imo state's largesse from the petrodollars accrued to Imo state.
So you tell me, how did "Igbo" turn to "Igbon"...a so called Bini/Anioma name for slaves?
And how did a people speaking "Igbo" manage to imbibe a practice of such wide spread selective amnesia?
You know that they forget, people from across the Niger find their language mutually intelligible?

ChinenyeN:


The only error in this writeup are the parts where you assert a precolonial understanding of "Igbo" as an ethnonym. Aside from that, this post is excellent.

If I get you correctly, you meant "Igbo" was unknown by "Igbo" speaking peoples as an "umbrella" name hence an ethnonym right?
If that is correct, then it appears your definition of then "Igbo" inter clan communication is a bit narrow.
I agree the "Igbo" ethnonym was the common denominator name used to designate the peoples east and west of the Niger who were
identified as speaking the "Igbo" tongue.
Prior to then, it was strictly a clannish thing.

But then, "Igbo" as an ethnonym was neither invented nor imposed.
It was an appellation the majority of the peoples themselves used as the common
denominator name amongst themselves and their neighbours speaking mutually intelligible languages.


A man from Ahiara area of now Mbaise would be called Isuama by people from Owerri environs.
The Ngwas from across the Imo river called those on the other side "Ohuhu" and so on.
But you appear to forget the usage of the word "Igbo" was in vogue and was a wellknown surname or prefix/suffix in surnames.
It was also used by these peoples themselves for certain designations.
I leave it to you to do the research or even better present first hand and more accurate information.

Here are a few tips for you, when did the peoples speaking "Owerri", "Isuama","Ngwa", "Idemili", "Awka", "Nri" etc. dialects spread across the landmass now known as SE Nigeria start using the phrases "onye igbo", "asusu igbo" and "ndi igbo" ?
Which precolonial "Igbo" clans made use of the word/cognomen "Igbo" in their first names or surnames? Like "Amaigbo", "Igbokwe" etc?
While at it, how did say people in the area now called "Orlu" axis of Imo state differentiate between the language spoken by the missionaries from Onitsha and the missionaries from say Opobo or Owerri?

chukzyblingz:
first I'm an Ika man and not from An Ezechime clan but if the Ezechimes say their ancestors are from Benin, who are you to question them? How many Aniomas are questioning you Igbos when you say you came from Israel? is very funny for a people that don't know their history to insult people that have their history handed over to them for many centuries before the civil war or the formation of Nigeria. And it amuses me when this people come online and start using their population to spread falsehood online. I know you're at advantage of spreading more lies about Anioma because you outnumber the Aniomas but that's not going to make real Aniomas denounce their ethnicity and accept Igbo. We Aniomas know where we come from and our elders know our history as handed down from many centuries and generations by our ancestors. This has nothing to do with Igbo neither does it have anything to do with Nigeria. May God twist your mouth for insulting my elders for saying the truth. You don't have any right to insult or call my elders liars because I don't call your elders liars when they said they are from Israel. You're highly biased in your observations. you can never know a people better than they know themselves neither can you love a people better than they love themselves. You talk about similarities with igbo while totally ignoring the similarities with the Edos. And being as knowledgeable as you claim to be, I'm sure you understand the dynamism of language and why it can never be used to determine ethnicity also going by how fond the Igbo are in changing people's names to Igboid name. and you talk like Anioma is equal to ezechime clan.

Firstly I abhor insults and expletives on this faceless forum.
You dont know me, you dont even know if I am Igbo.
The fact that you have resorted to insults show you have already run out of talking points.
For starters, no one called you or your elders liars.
Historical facts were presented, you can either counter them with historical facts or you can go on spewing invented
tales and mythologies.
Secondly, history is an open ended topic. There are professional and amateur historians whose job is to research, verify and
comment on historical claims and facts. If you have any problem with that, I suggest you go back to school and get a better education.
Having said that, the claims were made by your so called elders and they were the ones who started this whole denials and counter denials.

After doing my own little digging around, I find little evidence that the SE Igbos have mounted any campaign to force an "Igbo" identity
on you "edoid" peoples...who have nothing to do with Igbo

As an amateur historian and a Nigerian, I am free to comment and analyze your claims to Bini ancestry.
It was neither Nigerians nor Igbos who claimed for you and your elders that you came from Bini or are "edoid" peoples.
You and your elders did.
Facts must speak for themselves or must be proved if there is any controversy around presented facts or historical claims.
The facts on ground do not point to an Edo or Bini ancestory for the Ikas and the Aniomas.
Contrary to your elders' claims, the bulk of what is Ika/Anioma history is overwhelming Igbo...in language, culture and tradition.

If you are not intelligent enough to know that language is the first marker of ethnic groupings...then you have my sympathy on your ignorance.
When a supposedly unique and different people cannot substantiate their claims to uniqueness or separate identity...you can be sure some creative story telling is involved.
The pathetic fact about your rants is that you are not even well informed of the full scope of what you share with the SE Igbos.
This goes also for your elders. When presented with the fact there is an an Onicha in Ezza Ebonyi state, they silently ignore that.
When reminded that there is an Onitsha in Ezinitte Mbaise, that too gets conveniently ignored.
That are are Abbi, Owa, Umu Owas, Aboh across the Niger is plain lost to them....or they conveniently ignore those facts.

In summary dude, historical facts point out that you have more in common with the SE Igbos than with the Edos who are your next door neighbours.
They neither speak your language nor do you speak theirs. On that single point alone...you have a problem with your "Edoid" claims.

Finally the joke is on you and your elders.
Your governor, an Ika man, bears the name Ifeanyi Okowa.
Touche!
What mannalov irony and nansense! An sitting governor of Ika origin, an Edoid man bearing an Igbo name of all things!
Are you sure it was not the lying Igbos who forced his father, who by the way bears the name Chief Arthur Okorie Okowa
...to give his son an Igbo name?
Dont you just love the pure Edoid names you princely and kingly Ika people have?
Dude the joke is squarely on you.

If you have any claim to intelligence, answer this:
If there was a religious crisis in Kano and the resident Igbos were accused of having blasphemed Prophet Muhammed,
you know how it goes and the mob happen to be out for blood.
How will they tell the difference between these 6 Southern Nigerian men living in Sabon Gari?
Elechi Martins, Elechi Amadi, Chukwuma Nzeogwu, Chukwuma Soludo, Ifeanyi Uba and Ifeanyi Okowa?

How will they identify the ones who are Igbo and the ones who are Edoid among them?

Ishilove:
PabloAfricanus, my device is blinking red (typed the life out of the battery) so I will respond later today, if that is alright with you.

Still expecting your response nwanyi ukwuani.
Make it good this time and for the sake of posterity consider historical facts as they still are.

Igboid:


I don't know where you got the idea that I am forcing Igbo identity on Ukwuanis from.

So far, no Ukwuani monarch has come out to deny Igbo identity, I have Friends from Ukwuani who are proud of their Igbo identity, ukwuani has no institutionalized Igbophobic policy.

Why then should I take the words of probably descendants of Hausa slaves in Ukwuani over those of free borns and their Okpala ukus and Obis?

Ukwuani can still maintain its distinctive nature, but it has to be under the Igbo banner,
But you just did.
Who made you an arbiter of political affiliation for them?

Its true that over time they have had migrations from different places and thus clearly have settlers in their midst,
so somehow their identity must have been altered.
And this is no different from the Igbos across the Niger like the Abribas, Arochukwus, the Ohafias, the Ezzas, the Ndokis, the Wawas and the rest.
They have over time mixed up with the Igalas, the Ibibios, Efiks, Idomas etc.
Homogeneity in ethnic composition can never be 100%. Intermarriages and migrations guarantee that.
Whether it is a case of Hausa slaves or Bini migrants or whatever, they are the final arbiters of their political affiliations.
The best you can do is appeal to shared histories, language, cultures and traditions as a unifying factor.
It is left to them to decide, not you.

chukzyblingz:
Everybody has right to self determination. Same right to self determination that Igbos use for the agitation of Biafra is what the Aniomas have to proclaim their ethnicity. Igbos come here and insult Aniomas, calling their ancestors that handed down their history from many generations liars. That's the height of insolence. You come here and talk about shared history forgetting that majority of Anioma history is edoid. Do you want to use language as an only measure of determining ethnicity? do you people know what makes a language a language and what makes a language a dialect? Nobody has the right to tell another that your language is a dialect of my language. it's an insult. even linguists don't have any definite way of determining a language and a dialect. many of the Europeans languages that are regarded as a separate language are closer to themselves than Igbo and Anioma languages yet you call it Igbo dialect? because it's Africa? Chinese is regarded as language but the truth is the Chinese language is made up of many languages yet people see it as a language. If language determines ethnicity why does some language go extinct? language is dynamic and can change within a short period of time. you people should go and make a research on factors that can make a language go extinct or change, you'll see that this Anioma-Igbo relationship fits perfectly.

Here comes another "edoid" one!
Dude its either you have been grossly misinformed or you are just another victim of a self inflicted identity crisis.
For starters, no "edoid" peoples speak an "Igbo" dialect like the so called Aniomas.
The Afemais, the Ishans, the Edos themselves, the Urhobos and the Itshekiris...all have their separate languages and/or dialects
which are still being spoken till today.
Next their oral histories rarely has been the source of controversies like the Aniomas.

The Itshekiris can tell you clearly when Prince Ginuwa came from Bini to establish the ruling dynasty.
You can see for yourself that his name has no Itshekiri themed meaning and was clearly Edo.
The Afemais and Ishans till today still speak an Edo dialect.
How you and your "historians" managed to convince yourselves a man named Eze Chima is Edo is simply baffling.
Lets not even get to the Ikhime part or the fact that the Binis have no record of such an important personality.
Even more baffling is your calling "edoid" a culture that is more Igbo than even your beloved Edo!
I am left baffled
How you also managed to conveniently ignore the facts that all the names of places you claim to have been founded by the so called
Eze Chima is faithfully replicated across the Niger...is also baffling.
Are you aware there are more Onichas across the Niger than in your Anioma lands?
How come a people who from time immemorial have always spoken pristine Igbo dialects, practised pristine Igbo traditions,
and have always had the majority of their deities to be Igbo deities...suddenly become "Edoid" beats the imagination.
Apparently you have not researched your history well and like so many of your elders...have simply chosen to live in self denial.
Pls kontinu.

Igboid:


Ukwuani can still maintain its distinctive nature, but it has to be under the Igbo banner, because even in SE, clans like Ngwa,Nsukka,Ndoki,Asa, etc, still retained their distinctive nature, they have their own languages with dialects, an even organizations, but it's all still done under the Igbo umbrella.

Thats where you are forcing it dude.
No one needs anyone to be under any umbrella they did not choose to be.
It is not obligatory or mandatory that the Aniomas, Ikwerres or any other so called Igbo speaking peoples join any pan Igbo
group or nation.
They are and have always been free to forge their own destiny, politically or economically.
If they decide to cast their lots with their Niger delta neighbours...good for them.
If they decide to take the Bini fixation to a logical conclusion...good for them.
If they decide to adopt Edo language as their national tongue tomorrow so they can finally get rid of the persky "Igbo"
question...it is their prerogative and not yours.
And as I noted...they owe you no apologies nor explanations.
So quit with the pan Igbo nonsense.

Infact if I were Igbo, I will be loath to accept into a pan Igbo fold peoples who denied their ancestry openly and vehemently for political expediency. If human nature is anything to go by, you can be rest assured the resentment and hatred will be lying latent and still on the surface.
You will be having willing fifth columnists and moles in your midst.
If you were a good student of history, you would know that since the Igbos have never had any pretensions to imperial status or statehood,
the drive should be for a confederation of clans under the Igbo umbrella.
Cos it does take conquest and force of arms to keep a people subjugated under a common political umbrella.
And you and I know, the republican Igbos find state politics or conquest an alien concept.
Infact it is more likely that the Aniomas will find a pan Igbo setting more disorganized and characterized by clear leadership hierarchies
which they are not accustomed to...that is in contrast to their monarchical systems where leadership was not found wanting.
A look at their pride in their Bini styled monarchical systems should tell you why they will eventually resent any pan Igbo stuff.
Methinks it boils down to the fact that the Igbos are new to state politics and have never had political leaders.

oweniwe:


1. Based on point one, since there was nothing like igbo back then, do you think ukwuani, ikwerre, ika etc folks are right to reject being called "igbo "?

E.g.... "I am Ukwuani... I am not igbo because there was nothing like "igbo " before the white man came "...

Ngwa man is simply Ngwa... Osha man is simply Osha... Ndienigu are simply Ndienugu... Ukwuani is simply Ukwuani... Ikwerre is simply ikwerre.... There's nothing like "Igbo "

Do you see ' reason ' in the above statement?

Cmon dude, dont be clever by half
You like so many before appear to be fixated on conveniently forgetting facts put before you
Lemme help you out there:
1. The first "Igbo" people whom the Europeans met were at Aboh and were identified by the Obi as living
on both sides of the Niger, with the Obi claiming suzerainity over "55 miles along both sides of the river".

2."Igbo" as a appelation for identifying people speaking "Igbo" dialects did not come into being with the Europeans,
rather people were bearing names like Igboanugo, Igbokwe, Igbo, Obigbo,Igboamaeze etc. then and now

3.All the Igbo speaking peoples knew what the appelation "Igbo" meant and understood it to be the "name of the people"
or the "name of the language" by which the "Igbo" people called themselves. It was corrupted to "Ibo" apparently cos the
whites could not vocalize the "gb" sound.

4.The first "Igbo" bible was written in Opobo dialect and was not called "Opobo" or "Bonny" bible, rather "Igbo" bible.
The Igbo appellation was neither invented nor was it strange sounding to the hinterlands when they heard it.

5. The first native Christian missionaries to the Igbo hinterlands came from Opobo, Aboh, Onitsha, Ndi Olu areas and did not find
it that difficult communicating in "Igbo" language to the more unexposed hinterland dwellers they preached to. All it took was acclimatization
to the dialectical differences.

6. To the best of my knowledge, no one needs you to be Igbo or accept the Igbo nomenclature.
It is the crass rejection/denial that makes the "other" Igbos either look funny, bad or foolish, given that this is coming from
a people who were the subjects of the first "Igbo" historical writings by the Europeans.
Moreso, when "geneologies" and "ancestral ties" are invented all in a bid to perpetuate a self inflicted identity crisis,
it only leads to tauntings, mockeries and yes a little disbelief at the foolishness of it all.


My 2 cents.

Igboid:
[b] At a little distance from Obi's dwelling, and rather
to the right, we came unexpectedly on a large earthen
idol, placed in a thicket surrounded by high trees ; this
we believe to be the image to which most of their sacri-
fices are offered. Some persons who were near when
we moved towards the direction of this sacred spot,
made earnest signs for us not to approach, exclaiming,
" Tshuku — Tshuku," and just as we had obtained a look
of the figure, one of the Ju-ju men, or priests, came up
in a menacing manner, and would not allow us to remain,
or further to examine the neighbourhood. He appeared
to be very much exasperated, and disposed to punish
our temerity, which probably was only escaped by the
presence of a good double-barrelled " Nock." This
jealous care of the idol, and the exclamation " Tshuku —
Tshuku'* would lead to the supposition that it is the
visible representation of a mysterious being or deity,
whom they consult as an oracle under the same name.
His votaries believe him to exist far off in the bush ; that
he has the power of speaking and understanding all
languages ; is cognizant of every thing that takes place
in the world, and that he can punish evil doers. The
priest whilst holding communion with Tshuku, is sur-
rounded miraculously with water, and will perish
instantaneously if he attempts to deceive. As all these
absurd stories originate with the Ju-ju men, whose
object is to mislead their too credulous dupes, we may [/b]

Ezzeh Obi Ossai, the king of Aboh worshipped Chukwu( Tshuku) as his God, and not Osanobua. It doesn't get more Igbo than that.

I have read that book.
Funny how people conveniently forget written histories that predated their new political stands right?

No offense but I think its a clear case of either political expediency or just plain inferiority complex. Cos to me, the whole denial thingy is like uncalled for.
Anyways, written history is a good thing, pity sub saharans never came up with one.
The art of writing and memory is a wonderful thing!
The amazing thing is…the deliberate and selective amnesia practiced by some of the indigenes from these sides who should have known better.
Like forgetting their ancestors put a brave and ceaseless fight against Bini hegemony and fiercely maintained their independence in the face of Bini's imperial ambitions.
Only for their living descendants today to go dig up carefully selected oral histories emphasising their glorious and mutual beneficial ancestral ties to Bini!
Oral stories their progenitors would probably recoil from and find repugnant!
Like conveniently forgetting the testimony of their past kings who met with the Europeans… who their kings said they were, what they called themselves and how they identified themselves.
Even worse, the dangers of a single story… conveniently lumping all the peoples east of the Niger as "Igbo"… while projecting a unified, somewhat clean and tidy separate non Igbo stained existence for themselves. So convenient!
And yet, when they are done, the self proclaimed admixtured people who are less than say the Owerris, the Ngwas or the Idemili.… go on speaking pristine Igbo dialects and practicing pristine Igbo traditions.
Sigh… some things do die hard.

SlayerSupreme:
I hereby tender my unreserved and most sincere apology to Ishilove. Please forgive me. I take back the shots I fired to defame her person. Those shots are usually reserved for idiots who denigrate the great Igbo nation: She did nothing like that,hence this apology. Ishilove forgive me. I still think some of your postulations are pathetic though I feel you can claim whatever you desire. I will consqequently edit some of my posts.
P.S - Mr man you can see the apology. Don't call me childish next time because of a lady. It rubs off negatively on you. Though you won't agree or understand.
Ishilove,once again,I'm sorry.

Better.
That did not hurt you one bit did it?

SlayerSupreme:
Go to Benin and marry na. No husband there too? Efulefu di ka gi. Who wants to marry a classless bleached out empty shell like you? You're arguing with Igbos. You don baff? Ukwuani my Igbo princely foot. C'mon gerrout Idiott. Work on yourself before the silly lies your father tells you hinders yiu from settling down. Remember your Benin slave father will not marry you. Fuck_ing bleached out harlot. Now logout and go and die

Totally uncalled for and unncessary.
She owes you no apologies for her stand or take.
And i am failing to see how you stand to benefit from her towing your line.
Dude you are just displaying high level childishness.
How do you intend to win her over to your view if all you can do is engage in expletives?
Be the man and let things you have no control over be.
I will suggest you apologize to her.

Ishilove:
Among the Onitsha- Igbos the traditional top hierarchy chiefs or political heads consist of six classes of chiefs viz Ajie, Odu, Ogene, Onowu-Iyasele, Onya and Owelle, followed by Ndichie-Okwa and Ndichie-Okwaraeze. It is instructive that the Ukwuani people have Ajie, Odu, Ogene and Okwa either as political institutions, administrative titles or as a form of official greeting. The traditional form of greeting I am familiar with is "Aje"

Now, Oweniwe, to the nitty gritty of the matter.

The linguistic similarity between the Ukwuani and Igbo however often resulted in people erroneously categorizing the Ukwuani as Igbo or a sub-culture of the Igbo, just as they have been ethnically mistaken for some of their neighbours like the Isoko and Urhobo.

Professor Steve Agwo Okecha, in his work, 'Obiaruku Massacre' posits that despite having many basic elements in common, Igbo and Ukwuani are certainly not the same language and the latter is not a dialect of the former.

To quote Barrister Egwenu:



Touche.

An elder noted that until recently, the name ‘Igbo’ was not shared by all Igbo speaking people. The riverine Igbo occupying the banks of the Niger referred to the Igbo hinterland as Ndigbo and to themselves as Ndimili (Ndosumili) or Ndiolu. If this can be said of littoral territories of the lower Niger, one wonders how the Ukwuani, a contiguous but more distantly westerly people, can be referred as Igbo people.

Despite the apparent traits and possibility of common ancestry as indexed in the closely related grammar, phonology and vocabulary, there exist substantial differences between Igbo and Ukwuani peoples. The low level of mutual intelligibility and diverse cultural disparities between both peoples mark the Ukwuani out as a distinct ethnic group with a right to self-identity and recognition.

Interesting read.
Been following the discourse.
Lemme add my input, kindly note that I do not claim to be an expert but certain facts can be neutrally analyzed from the side.
I am here to attempt a balance.
Firstly, any one or any group of peoples are free to define, propose, redefine and change their identities a million times a day if it suits their
purposes. No one or any group have any right what so ever to challenge the intrinsic right of any group of people to self identify as they see fit.
So I am in full support of Ukwuani, Ika, Anioma, Ikwerre and all so-called Igbo speaking peoples in their quest to define a unique identity for themselves. It is their God given right and they owe no one any apologies or explanations for carving out an identity for themselves.

Now to the nitty gritty of the matter (pun intended).

My interest is in shared history, shared culture and shared traditions.
That cannot be wished away, changed or somehow redefined to suit one's likes or dislikes.
Michael Jackson did not become a white man by whatever form of skin bleaching he employed as till today his black parents, brothers and sisters are alive...and the whole world knew him before he started looking like a white man.

That said, why is it that all the denials of an Igbo identity center around Benin?
Carefully [b]constructed proofs and oral stories [/b]are researched and put forth as factual evidences linking a people who have more in common with the Igbos across the Niger to Benin and her peoples who just live a mere stone throw(the distance is not long abeg) to them?

It is this part that has sparked my interest and piqued my curiosity.
I have never witnessed such a phenomenon anywhere in the world.
We had a family friend from Ukwuani then in Lagos and I was opportuned to see the banking details of his son.
Lo and behold the guys middle name was Ijeoma! Now being fluent in Igbo, I knew this was not a chance occurrence or a misnomer.
The man gave his son an obviously Igbo name!
Now while there is nothing special or new about this, it underscores the core of the identity crisis that some people are trying so hard to run away from.
Firstly, the Igbos in the SE are surrounded by Igalas, Idomas, Ibibios,Efiks etc. and none of these peoples bear the name Ijeoma.
Next, the name Ijeoma means the same thing in Ukwuani 'language' and any of the numerous Igbo dialects across the Niger.
How did such a similarity come about?
Professional historians and linguists have ascertained that Ukwuani is just another dialect of Igbo.
From the Okpala Ukus, to the Ote ofes to the Nwachukwus to the primordial goddess of the Igbos Ani...all the known artifacts and markers of Igbo language, tradition and culture has been faithfully replicated in Ukwuani.
How come?
Chance or as the fierce deniers love to put it...just a similarity?

How did you manage to rationalize this quote below or are you able to list logical assertions from it?

”… Ukwuani is a language and Ukwuani language is spoken in Utagba-uno and all Ndokwa areas, and the Igbo language have a common ancestry, just like the various European languages that have Latin ancestry often referred as ‘Romance Languages,’ listed in Webster’s Dictionary as including French, Italian, Portuguese, Romanian, Spanish, Catalan, Rhaeto-Romanic and Sardinian.”

The ruse in employing language as a guide in the search for origin of a people is that it is capable of making English men out of Americans or vice versa. The average Ukwuani man has never identified himself as Igbo. Neither did he understand the Igbo language. Igboland was a distant territory until colonialism and globalization resulted in increased contact between them.

I am really struggling to see the part that inspired the "touche" remark other than an elder echoing agreed upon versions of the history you are passing across.

Mind you that the contention is not about self identity or whatever appellation Ukwuani folks choose to go by.
How do you suddenly pretend Nwachukwu as a name borne by Ukwuanis is not the same as Nwachukwu borne by the kingless, leaderless and slavery prone Igbo peoples on the other side of the Niger?
You know, the Ukwuanis who are a more distantly westernly people and quite different from the SE Igbos?
How did Ukwuanis come about Chukwu in the first place? Mere fluke of history?
To me, it just makes no sense.

Add to the mix the fact that the entire land mass of the SE Igbos and the entire Aniomas/Ikas being discussed is less than the land mass of the Bornu both as an empire and as a Nigerian state. So we are not talking about peoples that geographically distant from each other.

You see, shared history does not lie. It will out and tell you the origins of most peoples on the face of the planet..if you dig deep enough.
It is like an automatic shibboleth that will identity you by name, language, culture or tradition.
The only scientific counter to shared history is DNA analysis.
No living human being ever chose to be a member of any race or ethnic group.
You were just born there and you naturally imbibed the language and culture stretching centuries and millennia back before your great grand parents were born.

So, I think the drive to disconnect from a perceived "Igbo" identity or connection whatsoever with Igbos should be balanced with accurate historical analysis.
It is a proven fact the monarchical practice in Anioma was borrowed/copied and influenced from Benin.
The current practices, names of the titles and testimonies of rulers across the length of Eze Chime clans attest to that fact.
This is even more pronounced by the fact that the Edo tongue never eroded in any way the Igbo dialects prevalent in Anioma then and now.
It is also a proven fact that there have been migrants from Benin and intermarriages way long before the Europeans came calling.
Then and now, some things still die hard.
How the people who profess to come from Benin suddenly forgot their Benin tongue, deities, pure monarchical systems and culture...and suddenly picked up the language, deities, market days and culture of a distant territory and more easternly Igbos remains a question that has been silently ignored or swept under the rug.

I think I have a plausible answer to that question....shared histories.
It is never forced, imposed or coerced. It just is.
You should do well to atleast acknowledge that, it will make your story more complete and factual.

My 2cents.

PS: I love your writing style.

omonnakoda:
There is no Logic to this . Beauty is a perception. Female Gorillas are sexy to male gorillas and so on .What is beauty to you may be ugly to another.Anyhow the existence of beauty proves nothing . I might as well say the beauty of the world proves there are little orange men living on the moon.
I will not say there is no God, the fact is I do not know and nobody knows or can know, which makes it likely that there is none and certainly not the infanticidal version that begets sons and kills them to prove to MAN that he is great.
The so called beauty of the universe and its enormity should tell us how insignificant Earth and Man are in the scheme of things and inform us that if God had a son Earth would be the last place he would send him . Earth is the Universe is less significant than a grain of rice on Earth.
The same logic that makes God necessary makes a creator for God necessary too. Indeed what is more likely than the existence of God is other planets inhabited by more important and relevant beings than man

Profound thoughts.

@lawani

Dude even your links debunk your assertions.
It's all about the 'Emir' of Ilorin...so to speak.
There is a recognized Emir of Ilorin...not a chief Imam like you claim or even 'chief cleric'.
Even the Oba of Jebba had to go to court to defend his title against the moves of the 'Emir' of Ilorin to dethrone him.
Besides you are digressing and not focusing on the topic under discussion.

Here let me help you out...let's put your opinions to the test.
I have copied and pasted the names of the successive emirs of Ilorin.
Check out the family tree.
You mean a Yoruba oba, an Oyo one for that matter, descended from the Oranmiyan line of kings,
started this below dynasty?
Are you contesting the fact that these emirs began ruling over the emirate established by the Fulani
son of the Fulani koranic teacher Salih Alimi?
Mind you the argument is not whether they have acculturated or speak Yoruba or not, cos Tunde Idiagbon
was said to be Fulani by insiders despite his Yoruba.
Prove to us that there was no Fulani founded emirate in Ilorin, and while at it, give us proof that the past
and current holders of the title 'Emir of Ilorin' were never Fulani but Oyo men or even better 'Hausa of Yoruba' origin .
There you go:


[b]1817 Ilorin state separated from Oyo by rebellious commander.
5 Mar 1897 Part of British Northern Nigeria Protectorate.

Ruler (title Oba)
1817 - 1831 Afonja (d. 1831)
Rulers (title Sarkin Ilorin, also styled emir)
1831 - 1842 `Abdusalami dan Salih `Alimi (d. 1842)
1842 - 1860 Shi'ta dan Salih `Alimi (d. 1860)
1860 - 1868 Zubayro dan `Abdusalami (d. 1868)
1868 - 1891 Shi'ta `Aliyu dan Shi'ta (b. c.1845 - d. 1891)
1891 - 1896 Moma dan Zubayru (d. 1896)
1896 - 14 Jan 1915 Sulaymanu dan `Aliyu (b. 18.. - d. 1915)
1915 - Nov 1919 Shu`aybu Bawa dan Zubayru (b. 18.. - d. 1919)
17 Feb 1920 - Jun 1959 `Abd al-Qadiri dan Shu`aybu (b. 1887 - d. 1959)
30 Jun 1959 - 1992 Zulkarnayni Gambari dan Muhammadu (d. 1992)
Laofe "Aiyelabowo V"
1992 - Aug 1994 Malam dan `Abd al-Qadiri
1995 - Ibrahim Kolapo dan Gambari (later Ibrahim Sulu Gambari)[/b]

Don't digress to Jebba or Pategi this time.
Address the names and family tree you see in that list.
Prove to us those names are the names of Oyo men and their descendants.

lawani:
Pablo Africanus, you seem to be one of the Igbo spoilers lol, who can not miss an opportunity to jest about this Ilorin matter.

You see, Oyo, Ijesa, Benin, Ijebu and etc were Ife successor states while Ilorin, Ibadan, Dahomey, Egba, Ogbomosho were Oyo successors, all of them, especially Ilorin, Egba and Dahomey rebelled against Oyo, nowadays the Ibadan do not see themselves as under Oyo. Ilorin tried to reduce some others to tributary status as did the Dahomey, Ilorin was Muslim like Iwo so the moves to reduce others to tributary status was viewed as a jihad. Iwo never did that, there lies the difference. None of the links you posted said Ilorin had a Fulani Emir in 1897 when it came under Britain. Type Oba Moma and Oba Sulayman Dan Aliyu into google and see what will come up. So Ilorin rulers use the title Oba and Emir is merely a newspaper title.


I agree with you that it is possible for an Imam with political ambitions to manipulate things, I concede that but it was not successful in Ilorin, the manipulation did not work as there were Yoruba Muslims who senior the man. Shitta Bey was honoured by the Ottoman Turks who were the strongest Muslims in the world as at that time.


So use your brains as a sharp Igbo man. How can Ilorin be in Sokoto caliphate while Jebba is not and New Bussa is not? Ilorin was a Yoruba Muslim state placed under Britain by an Ajikobi Oba. The people would have to be complete morons to allow the Fulani rule them that time. Islam was not popular among Yorubas like among Hausas. People's eyes were wide open. Hausas were more immersed in the religion and were carried away. So, Ilorin was not under Fulani, neither was Jebba, 100 kms to the North, nor Baruten, New Bussa or any Bariba land, no Ebira or Igala land under Fulanis and the present Emir of Ilorin is Yoruba of Hausa descent though I will admit the Yoruba group Hausas and Fulanis together as collaborators. There is a saying Gambari pa Fulani, ko lejo ninu. Meaning 'Do not mention the case of a Fulani man unjustly killed by a Hausa man in my court', that is an Oyo saying reflecting the politics of the time.


So you are the one to brace up to reality. The Fulani never occupied Ilorin at any time and 4 out of 6 Ilorin Baloguns are Yoruba, Ilorin was a renegade Yoruba Islamic state successor of Oyo and signed under British protection by an Oyo prince who was a Mallam shown in the picture displayed on this thread,

Hahahaha!
There they go again.
Actually I do not have to be Igbo to add to the discourse, and even if I were I fail to see how my contributions amount to a 'jest'.
This topic is one of the really interesting topics that has gone missing from NL and I miss the days of Katsumoto and co trashing out
historical details without resorting to tribal comedy.
I am an amateur student of history...sort of a hobby. Mind you I do not claim to have all the facts, so I am actually here to learn.
However, let's have a great discussion if you will.
The deliberate suppression of history by the Nigerian govt has led to massive ignorance among both our youths and elders.
Few people here in the South have any idea as to the reality of a Fulani ruling class in the so called Northern Nigeria.
Even fewer know ALL the emirates are Fulani creations and vehicles of hegemony over the Hausa states they took over.

On the Ilorin issue, you can twist the narrative as much as you want, but the Fulani element in the ruling circles of Ilorin cannot be wished away.
Ilorin for all purposes remains an emirate.
Most of the trappings of a typical Yoruba obaship are not only lacking but have never been a part of
the Emirate since the times of AbdulSalami.
Let us tally the existing situation in Ilorin by known Yoruba standards.
Tell us, does the court of Ibrahim dan Gambari have Egungun, Ogboni Oba or Ifa diviners?
Who are the representatives of the Iyaami who installed the Emir as a ruling Oba in Ilorin?
Between the Koran, Hadiths and the word of Ifa which holds sway as a political guide in Ilorin as an Emirate?
You will agree with me that the current Alaafin and his late father being professing Muslims has not diminished their status or practice
as faithful aborishas. Neither has the muslim populace in Ibadan or the Awori enclaves of Lagos eroded the Ifa practice or the Ogboni leadership prevalent in those areas.

Was AbdulSalami the son of Alimi given a flag by Gwandu? If yes, to what purpose?
If no, why is Ilorin titled an 'emirate'?
IMO, a starting point would be to list the successive Emirs of Ilorin and name their fathers.

Check out this list for details http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Nigeria_native.html

lawani:


Stop deceiving yourself. An onion seller and Quranic teacher was in no position to out manouver the Aare Ona Kakanfo, he commanded no troops and Ilorin was never at any time dominated by non Yorubas. The place was dominated by Yoruba Muslims who killed Afonja. Afonja could not have surrounded himself with majority non Yorubas, since he was not a fool. The Afonja descendants say Alimi died before Afonja and that it was Abdulsalam his son that led a rebellion of Muslims against Afonja when Afonja said the position of Chief Imam is not hereditary, Afonja was killed in the rebellion by mainly Yoruba Muslims. Muslims were attacked across Yoruba land and they fled to Ilorin. Subsequently they delineated themselves under 6 Baloguns of which 4 were Yoruba and conducted jihads from Ilorin, at first led by Abdulsalam, then later by others, the last two or three Obas of Ilorin before 1897 were Yorubas but they could not allign with Ibadan and Oyo who see them as traitors who burnt down Oyo ile. So they dilly dallied, they allied with Ibadan, then with Ijesa until the Ajikobi put them under British protection in 1897. Balogun Ajikobi still have the document. If Fulani had conquered Ilorin, then they would have conquered Bariba and Jebba as well. The Hausa presence in Ilorin is stronger by far than the Fulani, their Balogun is strong while the Balogun Fulani is more or less nominal. So, what is the rationale behind spreading false tales that Ilorin was conquered by the Fulani?. Please stop the lies, let us endeavor to speak truth always. Even if Ilorin was occupied by the Fulani (such never happened). It is still a fact that Oba Sulaiman Dan Aliyu put Ilorin under Britain and he was an Ajikobi man. The document is still with the Ajikobi.

Dude it appears you like twisting history to suit your emotional needs.
Insinuating that a mere 'koranic' teacher Alimi could not have taken on Afonja betrays your ignorance of the matter under discussion.
Or your willful disregard of documented history.

Well, here's reality for you...a mere rehash ofcourse.
A mere 'koranic' teacher, Usman Dan Fodio, who was hired by the Sarkin Gobir as an Islamic cleric and tutor, rose up and declared war on
his Hausa lord. Let me put that into perspective for you. To even contemplate going to war against one of the Hausa city states of Daura,Kano,Gobir, Rano, Biram, Katsina,Zazzau, you need a strong calvary for the onslaught and well armed foot soldiers for the mop up operations. You need loyal field commanders, armourers and an appealing propaganda to justify the war.
dan Fodio was not only able to raise a strong calvary, but rallied round him Fulani and Hausa migrants,slaves, and disgruntled indigenes to fight against their overlords. The jihad while suffering initial defeats was largely succesfully beginning from the fall of Gobir to the Fulani forces.

In succession, all the settled Fulani 'koranic' teachers in ALL the hausa city states rose up and rebelled against their lords.
Mallam Musa in Zazzau became the first emir of Zazzau after receiving a flag from the Shehu himself with which he successfully took over power from the reigning Sarkin Zazzau. Infact the Sarkin Zazzau was routed and ran away to Suleja where he set up a parallel kingdom.

The commercial centre of the Habe kingdoms Kano fell to the Fulanis who under the garb of Islamic piety and reforms made a successful power grab for the thrones of their Habe overlords.

Adama Modibbo, a young Fulani Islamic cleric still undergoing tutelage came from the Fombina highlands near the northern Cameroon highlands to request a flag from Shehu dan Fodio who made him the leader of the jihad in those areas.
Adama was so successful that he not only crushed and enslaved the Bata natives, he also renamed the surrounding area after himself hence the name Adamawa. Adama even took on the Mandara dynasty and won territories from the Kanem Bornu empire.
All the Hausa city states including the so called Banza Bakwai of Nupe, Zamfara, Kebbi and the rest fell to the Fulani usurpers.

All these jihads were led by mere 'koranic' teachers.

A common factor in all the Fula emirates is that they simply took over the existing Hausa feudal structure and reorganized it along strict Islamic lines. All the Hausa nobles and patrician families where either driven out, killed or simply relegated to the background.
A de facto Fulani patrician ruling class was formed from Sokoto to Gwandu to Adamawa.
Names like the Dambazza family of Kano where the past COAS Abdul Rahman Dambazau came from are prime examples of powerful Fulani ruling class families spread all across the North.

Bola Ige knew the full story, a total of 200 or more Fulani patrician families hold the strings of power in Nigeria.
That is what it is. You can either accord them the respect due capable conquerors or gloat in helpless derision.

As for Ilorin, this is how Kwara state university describes it:

Ilorin Emirate was established in c.1823 following the success of an Islamic movement initiated by a renowned Fulani Islamic scholar, Shaikh Salihu ibn Janta (d. c.1823). Its first Emir, Abdulsalami (reigned c.1823-c.1836) was the son and successor of the Shaikh. Ilorin city, in west-central part of modern Nigeria has remained the headquarters of the emirate since its inception and is today the capital of modern Kwara State. The Emirate has a dual identity as one of the ”successor states” of Old Oyo Empire as well as a ”Frontier Emirate” of the Sokoto Caliphate.

http://www.kwasu.edu.ng/cimanuscripts/index.php/about-ilorin-and-its-heritage

Here is how the official Ilorin city site describes it:

THE rivalry between the Fulani and Afonja descendants over the throne of Ilorin is rooted in history.
While the Fulani rest the case of their claim to the kingship of the ancient town on the fact that the monarch had from the time immemorial been produced by them, the Afonja descendants, who like majority of the people of the town are Yoruba, say since their ancestor founded Ilorin, their claim to the throne ought not to be disputed.
History appears in support of the former's position although the progenitor of the Fulani indigenes of Ilorin, Alimi, was actually a tenant to Afonja.
The death of Afonja and Alimi, however, saw the eldest son of the latter emerging as the first monarch of what was then known as Ilorin.

- See more at: http://www.ilorin.info/fullnews.php?id=10472

Contrary to your opinions, the British actually confirmed the positions of the ruling Fulani emirate family in Ilorin.
The Yoruba natives had risen up against the Emirate but their rebellion was not successful, as the rulers the British met on ground were
the descendants of Alimi. Even then there was no Oba in Ilorin.
Keep to the facts dude, it wont hurt you at all.

lawani:
The situation in Yoruba land late 19th century was similar to the situation in Syria today. If any more organised country should step in to administer Syria for a while, it would be very foolish for the rebels and the Assa regime not to capitulate to that country. The British did not use force, they contacted the Yoruba in the Christian missions, contacted the Alaafin, Ooni and probably the Ogboni leadership who must have given them the go ahead, they then went to the warfront to end the fighting. People were tired already of the war, I know a man in Ilesa whose father was born on that war front. So the British peace was welcomed by the Yoruba

Dude are you not getting romantic over these glaring attempts at revisionism?
Why not call a color by its name, rather than dancing around an obviously uncomfortable historical fact? Primary yellow color is now actually yellowish-purplish-orange hue?

The Fulanis entrenched themselves in power over their Hausa, Nupe, Ilorin, Bata and other hosts.
Afonja lost out to Abdul Salami the son of his ally Alimi. Afonja was definitely killed or burnt by his enemies depending on the version you believe.
Summary is the other arm of dan Fodio's empire, Gwandu sent a flag of recognition to AbdulSalami ON REQUEST… thus cementing the status of Ilorin as a Fula emirate.
These are easily verifiable facts….which you have so far tried unsuccessfully to challenge.
There has been no instance in all the Fula founded emirates where the ruling families somehow turned out not to be Fulani but instead a part of the local conquesred peoples…like you are trying to insinuate.
It is true, the Fulanis are the ruling powers in this colonial contraption, and they had the active and willful collaboration of indigenes and local rulers. Just like certain Oyo muslims in Ilorin actively supported the Fulani usurpers… for reasons best known to them.
Your denials not withstanding, the positions of the guys trying to school you in Fulani history appear to be lost on you.

Call reality by its name and you will not stumble in your way forward.
My 2 cents.

And so… we are still on a journey to nowhere in particular
Whats the way forward?

banmee:


If you bothered to read through my post, you would have seen that i had already determined that they are corrupt leaders. The whole premise of the article is to make people understand what leadership really is. Nigerians often consider the acquisition of wealth or popularity as same as leadership. Which is one reason people consider fayose to be a leader. He is not. The individuals i have mentioned have the potential of using their gift of leadership for good if they so choice. The main reason i chose these individuals is because they have passed through and understand the law of process.

naaaaa....read ya analysis. I just disagree with the first assertions concerning those examples of bad leadership.
Obj had his chance under an autocratic military regime, foistered an unbelievably devious Land Use act on the country..came back from prison to still goof around in a self aggrandizing babacracy.
$16 billion spent generating invisible electricity for nigerians in the future...only for phcn to still be auctioned off just a few years
after Obj left power. I could list more fine examples of Obj's economic and administrative fvckeries. Obj has always been a fortunate man...good for him. only snag is few nigerians know him for the joker that he is.
in a few years time, the broader implications of Obj's land use act would come back to haunt Nigeria...among many other instances of policy fvckery that has gotten us in the quagmire we arw today. So Obj does not cut it.

Tinubu is just a glorified power hungry oppportunist...albeit a highly intelligent one. I think he's already highly compromised in international
circles and at best can only function as an american or british fifth columnist. Tinubu would have made a fine candidate as his penchant for growing revenue using intelligent minds is sorely needed at the center. Sadly those that know him well would never entrust such positions to him. but then who knows 2moro?

Buhari has no business formulating policies or guiding government policy. His background is in strict execution of military orders already thought out by more intellectual minds. His ideas of governance are based on Fulani feudalist ideologies and statist slave based theories such as the one run in the Fulani emirates...where the Sharia laws, Hadiths and all knowing mullahs take the place of progressive intellectual thinkers.
Buhari would at best make a good NSA or Senate president...NEVER a president of a country as fragmented and complex as Nigeria. I wish him well though in his second coming...he fought for it anyways.

My point is that we...the youths of today...should stop making excuses for failed leaders and disastrous economic policies that have more or less crippled Nigeria's rise as a great nation. No level of analysis will justify our not being able to boast of 72 hours constant electricity IN 2016!
The blame lies squarely at the doors of these inept looters who have always been there since the 1960s.
Its time for the youths of this country to brace themselves up for the challenges of credible leadership and policy formation.

my opinions.

p

banmee:


Truth be told; as it is at the moment, their are only three people alive today that could lead Nigerians out of the mess they are in if they so choose. Obasanjo, Tinubu and Buhari. They have the experience and the leadership capabilities to lead. The only problem is, what kind of leaders are they? Obasanjo has proven that he would rather use his very imposing leadership style to perpetuate corruption, pettiness and his anti social policies and agenda. This man had the best of chances to lead Nigeria into a new era and he squandered it completely. Tinubu has already proven he can lead. From a young politician to governor and most impressively, the ability to form a party that would shake the very foundation which the PDP party stood on. His leadership style though leaves much to be desired. Very selfish, corrupt and with no regard for his fellow country man. Lastly we have Buhari. One very strong trait he has is he has perseverance and vision. He knows what he wants and doesn't care how long it takes to get it. He also has the ability to make people do what he wants which is the main reason he is president today. I know you would be like WTF, how can anyone call these individuals leaders? Well, it doesn't matter if you are a good or bad person when the word "leadership" is involved. (Remember that armed robbers have leaders too). Leadership is about guiding people through a certain path to a pre determined goal. Hitler, as evil as he was, was a great leader. He was able to transfer his deranged vision to the people of Germany and they followed without question. Without a doubt, if he had wanted to do great things instead of warring all over Europe he would have. Just because you are president or in a leadership position does not make you a leader. As seen from the debacle left by Jonathan. He wasn't a leader, which is why for some reason, a lot of things were happening which he most likely was not aware of. Some of his ministers he appointed were more powerful than he was. Take OBJ for example. During his time, no one dared phuck with him. The only thing your position affords you is TIME. Time to swim or sink yourself. The fact that Buhari is a leader is without question. The only problem is, is he a good person who genuinely has the interest of the masses at heart. Or is he like other leaders Nigeria has produced; Phucked up, selfish and with a messed up mentality. So far, it's kinda hard to tell.

Sorry but i beg to disagree.
Nigeria is blessed with quality, conscientous and enlightened leaders...from all regions.
they just do not have the 'thug connect' of military cronies and 'big money' connect of international looters
to present themselves for duty...without fear of danger to their lives,families and retirement funds.
Those names you listed up there are among the top 50 of our national problems and have never had the best of Nigeria's in mind.
The mantle of leadership actually falls on the youths...you and I.
Are we going to spend another decade of erratic power supply, university strikes, fuel scarcity, horrible infrastructure...waiting for these recycled old political merchants?

macof:

such comedy

macof is a bully
macof is below me.. even going as far as insulting pabloafricanus for calling you out. you don't want people to question you, everybody must shove your shit down his throat.

why all this nonsense? pabloafricanus asked simple questions that will make all yoruba people believe you and opcnairaland that Abraham is the father of Yorubas. you want to tell me my origins don't you? so I can't ask questions and challenge you over my own origins? I should just accept what ever you say? what my father never told me

and you call me a bully


if you really have linguistic and cultural features shared between Yoruba and Hebrews strong enough to suggest hebrew origin for yorubas ...please present it..I'm begging you, show me that I'm beneath you by providing this evidence of hebrew origin..I want to know my origins. since according to you my ancestors were monotheist hebrews who formed the Torah. I want to be forever below you, just show me that Yorubas have nothing in common with Igbos, Edo, Urhobo, Igala etc but our family are Jews and our home Jerusalem. let's discuss hebrew culture and how yoruba culture was derived from it ..that way we can reclaim our ancestral land as God's chosen people

enough of all this emotional outcry... I know you are not a child but a grown man, so please act like one

I'm no Hebrew lap dog ok? unlike you I'm not sired by the hebrews or any foreign people for that matter..As much as I love the Chinese I have no business claiming my ancestors were the builders of the Great Wall. so if you have anything useful to do with your life do it and stop seeking to use "your Invented history" to gain some relevance...there are more decent self employed jobs which don't deal with pseudohistory

You know a dude has lost the argument when he resorts to ad hominems.
A mere challenge to prove your point cannot be countenanced by someone claiming special knowledge he wants others to know about!
That bloke in typical African fashion expects no opposition to his creative fantasies.
Its the transliteration part that got me laughing Abiriyamu
Anything to soothe the feeling of inferiority in the face of overwhelming Arab and Jewish cultural hegemony!
I understand!

2prexios:


I don't think your head is working fine, sorry to say. The reason is, can't you share the crust of your unhappiness without calling for help?

Aren't you thoughtful? Are you anyway conjoined to macof like a siamese? You are looking for supporters club abi?

You have low intelligence hence you must lean on bully like that to make a point. Those calling him are below him, they fear him because of his ways.

You will always look up to him to reprimand nairaland, for you to be happy and thats good for you. Hurray.

I don't chase people who are below me in wit, such as the subtle macof. I give them assignment.

You want to know why Africa lag behind and struggles as a continent? Many folks says 'shut up, who are you' to the unfolding knowledge of one another for very many silly reasons.

At this junction man, don't bring your complex issues to my thread, stop being halfwit, tell the world your side of the story.

pity is for a given, but jealousy you have to earn. Take a cue from your masters, don't shut down a school of thought for an agnostic pride. Let people think.

Their thinking does not rob you of your pride, if it enlighten their spirit. Except yours is a pride of darkness that should not be seen in the light.

Present your worldview as if it will become a branch of knowledge in time to come, enrich your blank soul in others knowledge that elude you.

Stop fighting knowledge with empty pride. Present your knowledge free of silly 'comrademanship'.

Why throw up tantrums over a challenge to some post?
I have neither demeaned nor insulted your (anonymous) person on this forum.
Why result to ad hominems? Or are you one of those who cannot make a point without resorting to insults?
I called macof cos he was one of the posters before me, and I know him to be one of the authorities on Yoruba history on this forum.
How that translates into silly 'comrademanship' or 'always looking up to him' or 'looking for supporters club' is well beyond me.
Or do you have a comprehension problem?

And stop being patronizing with all the philosophizing and advice...save it for those glorious occasions when someone awed by your great wisdom will solicite for it.
If you've not noticed this is not a thread on philosophy or elderly advice...but a thread on history or the lack thereof.

Provide plausible evidence that the peoples living the SW area of a British created country called Nigeria are descended from the Middle East.
That's the topic for discussion ok?
See it like this, there are pyramids and megalithic buildings spread all over the British Isles, North Africa, South America, Russia, China, and the Middle East. Historians and archaeologists have dedicated their lives to establishing similarities between the cultures that shared such structures.
It can demonstrated today that Stonehenge in England, Newgrange in Ireland and the pyramids of the Incas,Aztecs and Mayas are all astronomical buildings. Experts have found that they are all built to be aligned to certain planets, constellations and stars.
The Mayas even left documents mapping the phases of the planet Venus thousands of years ago!
The trio of the Giza pyramids have been found to mirror the layout of the constellation Orion as it was thousands of years ago!
So it is safe to say that the peoples who built these megaliths and pyramids had advanced astronomical knowledge and undoubtedly had a stellar religion.

Should an attempt be made to suggest Fulanis for instance have advanced astronomical knowledge and a stellar religion, one of the concrete signs/evidences historians would look for is well known similarities...like scrolls, pyramids, megaliths, astronomical observations, names of planets and constellations...that are also found in similar cultures and peoples sharing such history.

You and some posters on this thread have made assertions, citing phonological similarities between some Yoruba words and some anglicized Semitic/Hebrew words.
The fact that you guys are not even aware you are using the anglicized forms of Abraham, Noah etc. shows the folly of your assertions.
For example, Greeks are aware that the Arabs call Alexander Al-Iskandariya...so any creative historian using Al-Iskandariya to create a story of an ancient conqueror of Arab origins would be called out real quick. Even Alexander is an anglicized form of Alexandrios...which is how the name is pronounced natively.
A visit to Macedonia would be suggested to cure him/her of such ignorance.

I called you and your 'supporters club' to provide native oral evidence of the personalities, events and locations you are all trying to transliterate into Yoruba.
I bet you are not well read enough to know there are experts who specialize in phonological and etymological analysis. With a lil bit of effort and imagination...human language is such that similarities in pronunciation and meaning can be established with almost any language!
That area is a wellknown forte pseudo historians and fake academicians.
It is only by establishing new or well known similarities in culture, religion, writing, politics etc. that accurate historical conclusions can be reached.

So what do the Yorubas call the planets Mercury, Jupiter or Venus or Sirius, Orion and the 12 zodiac signs?
And where are the temples they built to observe their movements across the sky?
What are the Yoruba religious observances or worship around these heavenly bodies that were a hallmark of anything Semitic?
While you are at it, provide proof that the Yorubas had a writing culture like all known Semitic peoples.

Thanks as I await your contributions.

2prexios:


I'm not sure the op is out to solve African problem on this thread,

the more you whine the more the solutions elude you, you need to

do, be, have.

not

have, be, do.

Do stuffs that gives you technological incentives, don't wait to have everything to start.

Be inclined in little enterprise that solve problems around you, don't wait till you be come a special man.

Have a good experience that can be invested upon at the passage of time. No, dont need to have money or position for transformation.

Nigerian youth feel great finding scapegoats responsible for this and that problems. Is the thread already leading tourists to Israel?

At 20, I told myself that I will never rely on any person or institution to become a success. I believe in inventiveness, I believe in personal efforts.

I stayed true to my resolve, and the last time I took salary was 15 years ago. Can you bring your ideas to life?

I believe the little I do justify my quota in the task. I don't have to complain anything, it's my life, not someone's.

People keep looking to the leader somewhere for answers. Will they teach you what you must invent to solve a problem?

keep waiting and keep rotting. People who complain can do nothing but find the most unbeatable complaints, and that apply to bullies.

this thread is not yeye, at worst, it points to brotherhood of man. Nowhere has it been said 'be stu.pid' so, don't be silly.

Scholastic topics are meant to exercise the brain probably to know how much of the tale of old elude us.

Use your intellectual abilities and enrich your world. History and culture is not an answer for political dissatisfaction.

Oh come on stop being so patronizing!
And stop trying to change the goal post!
We are not discussing your successful business or social achievements now. Maybe another thread ok?
I want to believe you have done well for yourself...congrats.

The topic is open for discussion on this forum and I chipped in my bit.
@yeye...this is not the first,nor third, nor tenth post on this forum by creative posters with fertile imaginations cooking up genealogies to Egypt, Isreal and the Middle East. Some even go as far as Europe!
You know it is yeye when they cannot prove they have any oral history or account of the personalities,locations or events they're discussing prior to the whites.
It even becomes yeye squared when they cannot produce any artefact or object similar to anything found or known in the lands they are claiming as their origin.

I am intelligent enough to know that no history is complete and historical enquiry must forever be an ongoing effort.
Its even possible you are on the right path and I'm just being incredulous cos I find your assertions too fantastic!
However, there is only one challenge to the son of a poor man who goes around telling stories of the mansions and wealth in his father's house...SHOW US!
If you cannot address the questions I asked as a challenge up there...do you want me to post some more questions for you to provide convincing evidence of this theory you support?

kleek:
I don't have time to read all this. And if I did spend the time to read it i'm sure that time would have been wasted. Condense your point into one paragraph next time.

You just confirmed what i had always suspected from ya tortured posts.
You are just a bored, self hating black youngin awed by the world of the whites.
You sound Igbo through and through… cos ya latent inferiority complex seeps thru ya rants.
Could be wrong tho… but you definitely lack a sense of historical pride.
No proud Bini, Ijaw, Efik, Yoruba, Hausa, Fulani or even well read Igbo man would dare suggest the silly stuff you keep drooling all over the place. There is no sense of african pride… no matter how silly in ya rants.
Take it or leave it… Africa has a well known problem of leadership. It is not a derivative or factor of population. Neither is it tied to whatever shade of intelligence you fantasise about.
Men and women will arise in africa to the challenge. I know you and ya self hating ilks wont be among them.

pleep:
10$ for the first low-IQ African moronn to translate this passage into his native language:


"But the difference of space is essentially a determinate, qualitative difference. As such it is (a) first, the negation of space itself because this is immediate and undifferentiated self-externality, the point. (b) The negation as negation, however, is itself spatial, and the relation of the point to space is the line, the first otherness of the point. (c) The truth of the otherness is, however, the negation of the negation. The line, therefore, passes over into the plane, which on the one hand is a determinacy opposed to line and point, and thus is plane in general, but on the other hand is the suspended negation of space, and thus the re-establishment of spatial totality, which, however, now contains the negative moment within itself an enclosing surface, which splits off an individual, whole space."

What the above writer was trying to communicate is a concept, an idea, a mental picture...a description of some observable abstract or concrete reality.
As such it can be expressed in far fewer words in a language with a native understanding of the idea, concept or description being conveyed.

For example, the word acceleration is a Latin derived word is used to describe the rate of increase/decrease of speed.
It was coined by Western scientists when researching statics and dynamics.
While a coined word, acceleration today is accepted as an English word.
It might actually take 2 or more sentences to describe what is called "acceleration" in today's spoken Yoruba.
Such a verbose description would be equally as valid as the very succinct word "acceleration".
A culture or people who decided to independently research dynamics or statics...will invariably come up with their own words to describe
rates of change of direction, height, weight, speed, mass, volume etc.

Point is...it does not have to mirror other people's definitions which might even be unnecessarily verbose or not precise enough.
For example, the Eskimos have a very fine vocabulary of words for "snow" and the different ways of describing "snow behaviour".
Whereas in the English speaking world, the word "snow","sleet" suffice to describe frozen atmospheric water vapour, Central Siberian Yupik has 40 such terms, while the Inuit dialect spoken in Canada’s Nunavik region has at least 53, including “matsaaruti,” for wet snow that can be used to ice a sleigh’s runners, and “pukak,” for the crystalline powder snow that looks like salt.

Check this out from this article from the Washington Post

For example, a single term might encompass a whole sentence in English: In Siberian Yupik, the base “angyagh” (boat) becomes “angyaghllangyugtuqlu” to mean “what’s more, he wants a bigger boat.” This makes compiling dictionaries particularly difficult: Do two terms that use the same base but a different ending really represent two common idioms within a language, or is the difference simply a speaker’s descriptive flourish? Both are possible, and vocabulary lists could quickly snowball if an outsider were to confuse the two — a criticism often leveled at Boas and his disciples.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/there-really-are-50-eskimo-words-for-snow/2013/01/14/e0e3f4e0-59a0-11e2-beee-6e38f5215402_story.html

If you have not figured it out yet...this is meat of it...the idea or concept being conveyed by the German in your quote does not have to be that verbose. At the end of the day, the writer is trying to describe an observed aspect of abstract or concrete reality.
Some African people if they want/like/endeavour can actually invent a single word or phrase to convey the exact same meaning your writer was trying to express.
It could be a single word or it could be more verbose.
Point is...it can be done today. The words and terminologies just have to be invented to describe all the observations, units and measurements. Just as ohms, volts, meters, farads, torque, inertia etc. were all invented by your white masters.

So holding up that abstract writeup in German on analytical geometry as a proof of the backwardness of African languages is well...just lame IMO. Propositional logic,negation,conjunction, disjunction, perpendicularity, orthogonality, Banach spaces, partial differentiation...are all symbolical and arbitrary inventions by Westerners and others to describe aspects of observed and measured phenomena.
Any similar effort done in say Fulbe or Xhosa would be equally valid as long as it coherent and meaningful to the readers.

If you give a hoot about Africa, you should actually start speaking and writing in one of the widely spoken languages like Hausa.
Or even better...prove the validity of all the superlatives you've been using to describe ya IQ by translating the above into say Kiswahili, Hausa or Amharic. Deal?

Try this...translate the following discussion into English or German.

Yetunde : Pelumi owon, o kare omo mi.
Pelumi : Iya eku ijo meta.
Yetunde: Ati ijo kan pelu.