Nihilist:


Well, a sensible fellow would have expressed his objections to my points instead of :

1. Accusing me of being another poster
2. Asking me to get my facts right, without posting any sensible submission.

PabloAfricanus must be Latin for Idi0t.

I advise that you stay off my mention in the absence of a decent submission, and go and treat your bipolar disorder or something

Insultive are we? I think you can do better than that...
Your reasons for labelling Jaja as a 'great' man and not a 'hero'...were just naive and childish to say the least.
You did not raise any valid point...and I called you out on that.
Your style of writing def matches the dude I mentioned...to a large degree IMO...ofcourse you can disagree.
Just pointing out to you to critically evaluate ya arguments b4 posting them...

Does not really matter...you know...just another online banter.
Having said that...quit with the insults kiddo...alright?
You never know whom you might be talking to.

Nihilist:


Are you insane?

Hey kiddo, quit with the insults okay?
Been following the discussion and ya points were clearly off the mark by like a 1000 miles.
And you definitely sound like the dude I mentioned.
Now be at peace.

Nihilist:


Mate your arguments are just hilarious.

Jaja signed away Opobo's sovreignty showing that he was not really opposed to a British Political Takeover.

That already rules out your theory that Jaja was some sort of bastion of indigenous rule.

The only thing Jaja is recorded opposing is an action that directly impacted on his finances.

your trickle down economics theory is not supported by the historical facts. Jaja was not an employer of labour. Jaja was not a producer. Jaja was not creating jobs or wealth. Jaja was not an industrialist. If I am wrong, produce some historical evidence to that effect.

Jaja was a wholesaler who forced farmers to sell to him on his terms,before selling that on for a profit.

Stop trying to over intellectualize an issue that only calls for common sense.

Good business man. Not a Hero

Shymm3x you again? Arguing like a kid all over the place
Dude...piece of advice to ya...brush up on your critical thinking skills and STOP thinking with ya emotions.
Get ya facts right, if you dont have them...just keep quiet.

emmatok:


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/28/the-guardian-view-on-natos-exercises-in-eastern-europe-a-predictable-show-of-strength

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/28/the-guardian-view-on-natos-exercises-in-eastern-europe-a-predictable-show-of-strength

Can you tell us the last time British Forces engage in any crisis.

As at today US special forces are actively engaged in crisis in Europe, Africa and Meddle- East.

It's a known fact that Retired US special forces personnels, are always recruited by the Private military contractors.

Even the Russians don't take the British serious when it comes to Battle, because most British equipments are manufactured aboard and personnel are trained in joint operations.

Hahaha.
Leave that guy he knows more about global military settings than everyone else.
Even if you present him with facts and figures you're likely to have him tell you it lacks no substance...cos you know he knows it all...in his head! Lol
Information that mere googling will provide he doesn't even seem to be able to make sense of.
Engaging him in depth analysis might just bore you.

Shymm3x:


It's obvious that you have no clue whatsoever and the more you post, the more evident your lack of depth on this subject-matter keeps getting exposed - like a gift that keeps on giving. No pun intended.

1). Let me start with "machismo and bravado" in which I highlighted in ya post. Which country does that posturing far more than any other country on the planet? If you can answer that correctly, then the sentence in ya post sums up everything you posited - in ya own words.

2). In a war situation, after the US must have defaulted on its huge debts and without the luxury of the Fed Reserve printing the dollars excessively like they do now - where would the US get the financial superiority you alluded to by printing dollars, apart from its huge stockpile of gold? A reason why I said your post lacks substance.

3). You touted the grounded F35 which has forever been problematic as US air superiority, when Russia has the far better Sukhoi PAK FA and China has the J-20 - and both are cheaper and far easier to maintain and build. Another reason why I said your post lacks substance.

4). You asserted that the US spies on Russia in its airspace with its aircraft - and that just shows you know next to nothing about military. No US pilot would even dare to embark on such suicidal mission, due to how water-tight/complex/sophisticated the Russian airspace is. Russia has the best air defence system on the planet - no country is close. Heck, its old s300 is far superior to the US' patriot.

Your post was just an unnecessarily long epistle ridden with fables and jejune tales - saying a lot without actually saying anything, to be honest.

Seems to me you deliberately disregard FACTS ON GROUND...and just go on believing only what falls within your narrow scope...while issuing blanket dismissal statements.
Doesn't cut it bro...and I'm sorely tempted to believe the topic might be beyond you.

1) You missed it again. Conflating facts with your emotions. Lemme help you figure it out, how many US military bases surround Russia and China? How many Russian and Chinese military bases are located close to US borders.
Do the math and tell me who is posturing. Post ur figures and don't dismiss it this time around.

2)I'm going to assume you're reasonably knowledgeable about economics to understand the difference between money,credit, currency and IOUs.
You didn't define broke as I suggested, so I'll help you out.
The US debt is denominated in Federal Reserve notes...which are IOUs backed by the faith and credit of the USA. The US Treasury can print as many FRNs as needed to offset any debt incurred by the USA govt at home and abroad. So the USA cannot be broke in dollars.
I won't even bother explaining to you in what terms the US can be financially broke.

3) Wrong again. Same blanket dismissal and NO FACTS.
Are you talking about the F-35A, F-35B or which variant? Incase you didn't get the memo, the F-35 is NOT NEEDED to maintain ALREADY EXISTING US air superiority...budget setbacks,glitches and all. Talking about the Chinese...the J20 is old news...stolen design and specs as usual. Heard about the Chinese J31 fighter and its design? Guess which fighter plane they're copying its specs?
Tell me why you think the latest and older Sukhoi line of fighters can best US air superiority. Lemme learn from u.

4) Lol. You confirmed my suspicion that you're just rooting for the underdogs and ignoring facts on the ground. Why not post links comparing Russian interception of US air incursion as compared to US interception of Russian air incursion. I could help you out again...just read up on the history of US air surveillance in Europe, Russia and China during the cold war.
Facts don't lie.


Finally the fact that you call US AFRICOM,USCENTCOM,USPACOM, USEUCOM, USNORTHCOM, USSOUTHCOM, over 1000 OVERSEAS military bases...fables and jejeune tales...shows how informed you are.
I'm not even going to bother asking you who pays for the building and maintenance of these military commands and bases, the strategic bombers, heavy weapons systems and personnel located there. Guess you'll call them fables too.

Argue with facts...not what you feel.Peace out bro.

Shymm3x:


Lol. I didn't even read ya post properly yesterday - I just glanced through it. But after reading it properly today, I would say, a lot of your posts are always half-baked and you post based on whatever superficial submission you read and not proper analysis. Everything isn't black and white. And stick to what will happen in a war situation where everything you cited would be inconsequential . I'll just ask you a few questions to show why your post lack substance:

If a war were to kick off tomorrow, would the US have the current luxury it enjoys of excessive printing of dollars? So where would it get the unlimited credit from, especially a country that's over $16 trillion in debt? Apart from its gold reserve - the US is dead broke. Take away the monopoly of the dollar as the international legal tender and the US will collapse like a pack of cards.

Lmao @ the US going over Russian and Chinese airspace undetected - you sure love fables. And how do they do that? You mean with the "Stealth" F22 raptors that's more or less a flying coffin, with oxygen problems? Or the F-35 that's grounded since like forever? F-16? You don't even know what you're talking about and I'm sure you don't know that Russia has the best and most complex air defence system on the planet. No US aircraft would dare go near the Russian airspace.

I bet you think the Russia of old during Yeltsin is the same as today's Russia - and you haven't been paying attention. Right now, Russia has the best tanks on the planet - the T-14 Armata. They have got the quietest sumarines. One of the most modern army on the planet. The best missile and air defence technology. The 5th gen Sukhoi PAK FA is already superior to the F35 that has ate up billions of dollars without taking one flight. Anyway, 5th Gen fighter jets are just a waste of time - most of the advanced countries have moved to 6th Gen fighter jet, and they have started working on it.

Its looking to be a boring sunday...so I can afford to engage my mind arguing all day.
Lemme guess...you deal more in machismo and bravado than facts. I can already hazard a profile of you from the above write up.
Dude, I outlined my points item by item, tried to give a somewhat compact detailed analysis of my points...hence the long epistle I posted.
And all you could do is issue a blanket dismissal statement...calling my submission "half-baked" and "superficial". Hahahaha!
You could atleast have enlightened my ignorance na!
You know the first sign that one has given up a debate is when you resort to ad hominem attacks or start issuing blanket dismissal statements. You're claiming special knowledge that you've neither displayed nor demonstrated.
I'm guessing I could run rings round you with more facts you won't be able to refute...and you'll still tag them as "lacking substance" and superficial.

Why don't you refute my points?
Lest I forget, your last post indicates you either didn't go through my post...or you do not understand what I posted.
Or maybe you're so caught up in the hollywood fantasy of the underdog defeating the big bully...you forget why empires have existed in history.

Lemme help you out.
I listed finance, combat experience,better trained personnel, superior weapon systems, air superiority, force projection capability and force projection reach...as my top reasons why US trumps china and russia.
Let's start with finance and argue it your way.
Define broke and give me ur reasons why the US cannot fund its war machine in a war situation like you postulated above.

Don't back out this time...show me what you got.

Shymm3x:


Lol. I think you're overrating the effects of fighting weak nations on combat readiness. Using football analogy: that's more or less like saying cos Brazil hasn't lost any game against minnows in the last 12 games or so after the world cup - this Brazilian squad is as balanced/competitive as the German, or even the Belgian team. The only thing you achieve while fighting minnows is to test the impact of new weapons but you don't get the necessary test for combat. The big guns are a different kettle of fish entirely and you won't know what it's like till you get into the "ring" with them. I also believe that's why a few heads in the Pentagon always get carried away sometimes and they tend to underestimate a lot of countries like what happened during the Georgian war and the utter shock of the swift and near perfect Russian response - despite all the money, equipment, and military personnel they rinsed there. Ditto the on-going Ukrainian crisis - and how the Russians took them by surprise with the perfect tactical/strategic capture of Crimea without firing a single bullet. Israel with all its noise and bullying of the Palestinians got its arse handed to it by the well-trained Hezbollah troops in 2006.

Big countries won't fight asymmetrically - it's going to be a conventionally war, with all cards on the table, and hopefully, without nukes. Advanced tactical strategy is the name of the game - and the morale/fortitude of the troops would be highly important. However, US soldiers aren't the most mentally tough out there, and they've an habit of breaking down when they face adversity - that's an open secret. Also, the US conventional war doctrine is based mostly on air superiority and air cover for the troops - once you take that away, how'll they be able to hack it against troops whose mentality is death before breaking and who dares, wins? And best believe all those military bases and whatever advantage the yanks have in reach would be targeted all over the planet with ICBMs as soon as it kicks off - and the field is going to level up faster than you think.

Don't talk about the US marines - they're average at best. They can't even compete with British Army and Royal Marines, or any of the regular European forces. Everyone knows that and it's evident in all NATO exercises. As for Delta Force, Green Brets, and Navy SEALs - they're all just one under different banners - just normal Special Forces like every other country has, but two are just less efficient than the SEALs. That's like SBS and SAS in the UK. In a real war situation - I don't even think NATO can defeat Russia (the new Russia) in continental Europe and most military analysts will tell you that. And if the US and China were to go at it in the Pacific - I won't be on anyone. But if it were to start dragging, I'd give the Chinese the upper-hand. However, if it becomes a global things - then the permutation would change depending on how balanced the allies on either side are. Also, during war time - money would be available to everyone cos that's how banks make their money. And all these countries have more than enough raw materials to build whatever they want in abundance, to build to keep fighting the war for at least a decade or more.

You lot read too much yank sabre-rattling - wars and capabilities aren't televised on TV by MSM nor are they scripted in Hollywood. When you see folks like Henry Kissinger begging the war hawks in Pentagon for caution, you should know it's deeper than rap.

LOL.
Nice analysis...but still falls short on the real parameters that matter.
I see you rooting for the underdogs...romantic but not enough to win a 21st century war.
Almost anyone who has endured the shenanigans of the US would love to see their a.sses kicked by the Russkies or Chinks.
You know...just for the emotional jerkoff effect.
Let me list a few reasons why the US still trumps the rest.
Let's start with the most important reason.

Finance. The US literally has unlimited access to credit. This is the premise for any US-involved war in the first place.
The dollar is printed by the US free of charge and all the nations have to struggle to sell to the yanks for the precious greenbacks.
The bedrock of any economy today is the dollar reserves...which the Fed can print at will.
In a war situation, nations with the resources needed by the US will accept dollar payments before yuan or roubles.
Nations needed as allies can always be bribed with any required dollar amount.
Why? Because confidence in US credit and therefore the dollar is unmatched.
Even the entire Euro region does not have that capability.
With the current global financial setup, the US can comfortably afford to fund multiple wars in different theaters without breaking a sweat.
Sure their economy will take a hit if they press the pedal on the printing presses, but the global market's hunger for dollars is so much that
any excess dollars in the market ARE GUARANTEED to be soaked up pretty quick.

Infact, the US strategic planners have China already cornered. Why?
China hold's the largest chunk of American debt. They're struggling feverishly to actually unload the excess dollars they have
accumulated buying Fed treasuries and bonds. It's actually a dilemma for China because on one hand having a huge reserve of dollars
gives them access to almost any market...they just have to flash the greenbacks.
On the other hand, their global usage of the Federal Reserve Notes leaves them absolutely tied to America's apron strings.
Their economic output, global investments, interest rates and central bank policies are effectively controlled from Wall Street.
Any slight twitch in the values of Fed treasuries will hit them directly in the balls.
So China cannot afford to go to war with the US. Their horde of dollars and Fed bonds will become toilet paper.

As for Russia, they've been cornered since Gorbachev handed over what was left of Soviet Russia to the Jewish oligarchs.
They too are largely dependent on dollar reserves.
Russian billionaires hold more dollar assets than rouble assets.
How many countries want to buy Russian bonds compared to the hot Fed treasuries?
If they try to get funky with the US, their assets will just be frozen pronto. Already happened in Europe this week, check the news.

US financial control is even more pronounced because China & Russia do not have any counter to the global banking network controlled from Wall Street.
Heard they're already building new yuan/rouble credit card networks for bilateral trade, but how many countries will use those?
Which countries will abandon the relatively safe London-Paris-NY network for some new fangled setup?
How will they pay allied countries for needed resources in war time?
Gold and silver hordes? Suicidal and unsustainable.
If you are counting on the new Silk Road networks, remember how NATO blocked the pipelines Russia was already building through
Eastern Europe? The whole Ukraine debacle was clearly a ploy to counter Russia being the long term supplier of gas to Europe.
And the counter worked. Incase you are not aware the Silk Road networks are already being financed using dollars.US wins heads or tails.

Why I agree the next war will be an orchestrated game between the great powers...is because almost all the powers that be...with the
exception of Britain, are allowed access to the global financial markets at the whim of the US. Beat that.
Its in their best interest to maintain the status quo in exchange for a compromise here and there.

Next is combat experience.
You seem to imagine all the US engagements since Vietnam have been child's play.
Are you aware it has been rumored the US actually used Desert Storm as a cover to test new nuclear weapons?
Check out the effects of depleted uranium (DU) on both American soldiers and Iraqi citizens after Desert Storm.
Do you have any idea of the number of both experimental and production aircraft, armament and military doctrines
the US has been able to effectively test in all the war theaters they've been involved in for the past 40 years?
The US has retired 3gen, 4gen fighters alone on foreign engagements since WW2!
Their 4gen and 5gen fighters routinely go for surveillance missions undetected over Russian and Chinese airspace.
The US clearly has superior fighting gear and tools..on land, air, sea and space...unmatched and unparalleled.
Their force projection capabilities is so sophisticated that even their military bases...contrary to what you postulated...
are mostly full command and control centres. Fully equipped for both conventional and asymmetric warfare.
Care to understand why they were able to chased Russia out of Afghanistan and made them watch while they caged Iran, Iraq
and Pakistan? Ever wondered what Vietnam was all about?
They made Russia watch while they knifed their allies, canceled their already inked trade agreements
and pissed on their whole geopolitics. Beat that.

Bravado does not win modern wars bro. Superior thinking, superior weapons and superior abilities trump all other cards.
When you have over 3 generations of hard boiled soldiers who ACTUALLY get deployed to foreign countries and experience live COMBAT,
you can't compare that to soldiers who are largely dependent of war college training and simulated drills.
THERE IS A DIFFERENCE...and the gap is huge.
These are soldiers trained not just in accurate shooting but in the operation of highly sophisticated military gear.
And the US military doctrine if you've bothered to peruse it...is beyond brain washing. You are shown and given proof
of your own invincibility as a US soldier. Those mofos are trained to dominate!
If you consider the Marines as average, bear in mind the TOTAL number of special forces divisions the US has.
Including the ones the public has no idea of!
How do you even begin to engage a combination of SEALS, Delta Force, Marines, Green Berets,
paratroopers and numerous special forces units of the US military?
You've not even included regular army infantry units or navy assault units.
To further buttress the above point, how many US soldiers have been brought back home in coffins compared to Russia and China?
Say over the past 40 years? Do the body count and then tell me they died from friendly fire.

Finally, maybe you've not realized it, the US is an empire.
The biggest empire in world history. Great Britain effectively were eclipsed after WW1.
In terms of economic output, financial strength, intellectual prowess and military might...the US is simply unparalleled.
The next war will be a war of imperial proportions and you seem to imagine Russia or China can engage asymmetrically with America.
The US is the new Rome and all pretenders will have it rough on any chosen theater.
Bar any playing of the nuclear card, Russia and China will be bested eventually. They will be dragged and exhausted.
China's mammoth army or reliance on ancient military tricks cannot best superior abilities ALREADY possessed by the US.
Russia's superior military industry cannot win any war fought on Russia soil. They will put up a good defense, but will be exhausted
finally. They cant finance a global engagement with the US. Same goes for China.
For each modern fighting gear they field, the US can field atleast 20 more.
For each motivated soldier they can field, the US have a more indoctrinated fighting force whose default mindset is in the
infallibility of the US.
When it finally comes down to conventional warfare, I hope you are not postulating Russia or China can outgun the US.
In terms of raw fire power, the US is unmatched. Check out the stats on different military sites.
For all the new tanks, anti-air craft and cruise missiles churned out by them, the US already has a ready counter.

And then, you've not included new weapons research like drones, robots and satellite weapons.
Or say air superiority, the Sukhoi line of fighters have not clearly proven they can compete with either the F-35 or older variations in direct confrontations.
As a unit, the US airforce has more flying hours under its belt and has racked more live combat situations than any competitor out there.
Only a combination of allied European airpower can pose a real threat to US air superiority.
Over all air superiority is US turf...from the arctic to the antarctic...over the entire Eurasian airspace even.
While Russia has a very capable military that can definitely match anything thrown out by the Americans,
the combination of superior finances and superior combat experience will best them in the long run.
China's mammoth army will simply be tutored by the US in ground warfare if they can bring the heat on.

IMO, the apparent effective measures to counter US superiority as I have mentioned is firstly bringing the war directly to American soil and that failing, getting Europe to switch sides. America is unlikely to survive either.

Sorry for the long epistle
My opinions tho.

Shymm3x:


What I'm not really sure about with the yanks, is the experience and fortitude to keep fighting when the going gets tough, against one of the big guns. If any major war were to happen, it won't be like the minor wars the yanks keep fighting against minnows - this is going to be a different kettle of fish, and they won't have the luxury to make the tactical mistakes they keep making against defenceless minnows. And one mistake might lead to total annihilation, like what happened to Hitler during the second world war. This won't be a war fought based on emotions like the yanks do most times - it would be a battle of wits and experience, and old civilisations will always have the upper-hand. If you could go back and analyse all the wars the yanks have fought since they end of the 2nd world war - you'll get a clearer picture of what I'm alluding to. They might put up a good fight, but I've my doubts about them in a full blown war. Their holygrail would be a quick one, but once it starts dragging - I honestly don't think they have got the needed intangibles.

Also, the sea would be up for grabs by everyone and subs will rule the waters. Whoever has the best subs definitely should get the upper-hand. Forget about all the posturing with aircraft carriers - everything should be sunk in the first few days of any war. Regardless, the consciousness is shifting and everyone is preparing for the showdown...that isn't even a secret anymore. Just one miscalculation and all hell will break loose. The yanks better start it now before the rest become fully prepared.

Yes, it's all about money, resources, and domination. And it's just impossible for one country to dominate the planet.

True talk...the yanks are in love with war and bullying weaker nations.
But thats what strong empires do na...cant fault them on that. You have the power...you gotta use it somehow.

The US military is actually is the most combat ready in the world.
Compared to other leading armed forces...they have been fighting continuously since the end of WW2.
They have an extensive array of seasoned and carefully trained fighters that can be deployed in any terrain
and on demand.
Only the British and maybe Israel can field soldiers matching the Marines, Delta Forces and other US special forces in terms
of fighting experience.
Those mofos are on queue for global tours 24/7! You can't beat that.
The Europeans have not seen any major army-wide engagements since WW2.
Compare that to Vietnam, Iraq 1, Iraq 2, Afghanistan 1 and 2, all the skirmishes in South Americas,
numerous CIA assasinations across all the continents, policing all the 5 oceans, dominating the skies day since WW2,
satellite and space domination...the yanks are loaded to the eyeballs with precision skilled soldiers.
And you have not even mentioned the dozens of military bases spread all over the world.

As for wits and intelligence...even China knows the name of the game is advanced strategy...not even tactics will save
you in a direct confrontation with US forces. Not conventional weapons, not allies, not even nukes.
The game is asymmetrical warfare involving the financial markets, trading and shipping routes, foreign assets and deposits.
They have refined the art of confrontational warfare...any terrain, any time, multiple theaters of war running concurrently.

The only ace card that can turn the card against the use is atomic weapons or the opposition bringing the war to American soil.
I think the only feasible strategy barring chemical and atomic warfare is to bring the fight directly to American cities.
Thats when all your scenarios will really count.

Shymm3x:


Lol. I hear that, big bredrin. Black Jesus ah cum save mi rasta cah man ah just waan chill wif mi bludclart ganjar, rum, ginger beer, and sum gud pum tuh enjoy mi life, u get mi? Rasta ah waan peace, bruddah - buh dem bomboclart aryan devils deh babylon finna destroy ah mother earth, ya noe. Babylon fi burn.

Honestly, I think we need a new world order cos the old one seems to have run its course and it's basically going to keep creating problems everywhere. However, since it favours the yanks, I don't see giving it up, without a fight. So in that case a war might be necessary and the progression of humanity has always thrived with wars and military industrial complex - that's the foundation of our advancement and what all our civilisations were built on - they're intertwined like siamese twins.

I think it's bigger than population reduction and judgement. They're already systematically reducing the population and if they want to go full throttle biologically, they can do it easily and no one will notice. I think it has to do with total world domination - and the silky roads go through Russia.

About BRICS vs. NATO - I just think that will make it a fair fight due to the current alignment, without the need to use nuclear weapons. Then we can have a winner takes all situation - or better still, a new world order, with a well defined bipolar world. Right now, the prize for the owners of the world is Russia and all its abundant resources - ditto how it connects both Asia and Europe. Once they get Russia, both China and India would be castrated and they'llhave total domination of the planet. And I don't think the Ruskis would even give in, without sending a few nukes out there as xmas gifts to a few countries. So BRICS would be make it balance.

I fear for the yanks the most, anyway - despite all the posturing with big weapons, that's the only untested country amongst the big guns. We know the UK is a brave and resilient country, and regardless of how small it's and how folks don't scream "God bless the UK" everywhere - folks will fight to the last man to protect this Island - that's the barbarian cum Germanic spirit. You can't break the British spirit lol. The French, regardless of how they cowered during world war 2, are warriors. The German Germanic spirit is nothing to play with. The Russians are nutters and they won't mind losing 90% of their population just to protect mother Russia - and they showed that against the Nazis by single-handedly defeating them. As for the Chinese - even when the country was in utter destruction during communism, they fought the whole planet (minus Russia) in Korea and almost came out with a victory, but ended up getting a stalemate. But how would the yanks cope in a proper war of attrition against big guns where they have to fight from the start and hang in there till the end? Well, they have got the African Americans - the primary reason why the country is great and their unsung heroes. Great match up for the next world war and new world order.

Do not underestimate the yanks bro.
Those are mean cold blooded mofos...entirely godless and planning decades ahead.
Their weapons research has yielded fruits not yet revealed in the public domain.
From remote viewing, weather modification weapons, to extremely deadly chemical and biological weaponry.
They have just the right spirit and mentality for world domination.
The only cog in their wheel is that they've blown the gasket on debt consumption.
A showdown with the rest of the world is inevitable. I even foresee Europe switching sides to put America in her place.
America has virtually lived fat off the produce and sweat of the whole world...all for printed pieces of paper call Federal
Reserve Notes.
And it gets even more funnier...through their control of the seas, no other central bank can transact on the international
market and ship goods without US interference.
As it stands, the next war will be a war over who owns and controls the world's reserve currency...in addition
to who controls the energy resources and the currency they are priced in.
Forget all about the posturing going on by US, NATO and BRICS.
They know its a game to unseat the dollar from being the reserve currency for prizing energy resources.

sukkot:
you have to remember that all wars are manufactured for a purpose. there are no real enemies amongst the leaders. the leaders are all and always will be in cahoots. so this is not a test of superiority. this is world population reduction and judgement.

Aye bro. Second only to prostitution...war is the biggest racket ever.
I think the next war will be about wiping out the unpayable debts on the balance sheets of the USA and Europe.
There will be a global reset when the game is done...in population, power base and reserve currency.
Just hope African leaders choose the winning team.

jamaicanoshu:
@PABLOAFRICANUS: You jumped over the SALIENT points raised by the previous posters as to why Africa would have been a better place today "if the Ancient Egyptians had colonized all of Africa !" Rather than refute their arguments you attacked claiming we suffer from inferior complexes. You then went off and built a house of straw arguments leading to a conclusion about our own minds and beliefs

I will go easy on you since its clear you need to spend more time studying history.
First off, the premise of the OP's wrtieup can only lead to one of several conclusions. I attempted to give my own conclusions based on the
flow of the thread. Care to "refute" my own "arguments"?
Are you sufficiently conversant with ancient Egyptian history to know the consequences of colonization by the then rulers of Egypt?
Your people would either be driven out if the land was deemed strategic or fertile enough, hauled off to die in some mines or
used as cannon fodder in their many wars.
Even the dark skinned Nubians needed slaves in their mines, farms, construction sites and armies.
Almost all conquered peoples were relegated to the status of slaves and servants...in addition to paying tributes and taxes.
I'm guessing you are not very familiar with the divine sanctioned genocides and brutal wiping out of conquered peoples
practiced by the ancients?
Or maybe you have this notion of ancient egyptian democracy due to their supposedly being the same dark skinned people as you?

jamaicanoshu:
@PABLOAFRICANUS: You jumped over the SALIENT points raised by the previous posters as to why Africa would have been a better place today "if the Ancient Egyptians had colonized all of Africa !" Rather than refute their arguments you attacked claiming we suffer from inferior complexes. You then went off and built a house of straw arguments leading to a conclusion about our own minds and beliefs .

Define "better place" and then go back and read my earlier response.

jamaicanoshu:

(1) ALL of these other races got their civilization from Ancient Egypt . (2) Why didn't these other races build civilization before contact with EGYPT.

Which "races" and which Egypt? Egypt during the time of the Ptolemies, predynastic Egypt or Egypt of the old and middle kingdoms?
The world has recorded other civilizations apart from Egypt and Europe bro...and they're not exactly linked to Egypt.
There have been similar pyramids and all that...but the Aztecs, Olmecs, Mayans, ancient Chinese, Akkadians, Sumerians etc
are not exactly Egyptian offshoots. Or are they?
Ancient pyramids have been discovered in China, Russia and even in submerged in the sea.
Ancient civilizations did not revolve around Egypt bro.

jamaicanoshu:

(3) Twice we saved Europe : first the Greeks and then in Spain. We built seventeen universities in Europe after which they had their RENAISSANCE. We will have ours!

Go easy on the Afrocentric diet bro...might save you face some day.
First off, who is "we"? Which universities did "we" build in Europe but could not replicate in Africa?
I could give you hints to the above though, black skinned people are as diverse as they come.
Sahelians, Bantus, Nilo-Saharans,Afro-Asiatics, Khoisan, Indo-European etc all are examples of ethnic groups in Africa.
So who are the "we" that brought the RENAISSANCE to Europe way back then and somehow forgot that charity begins at home?

jamaicanoshu:

(4) Electricity and light bulbs are on tomb walls in EGYPT (Youtube it).

You forgot to mention interstellar space travel, giants, wireless transmission of electricity (Youtube it).
Question is...what do all those have to do with Africa...sub saharan Africa in particular...other than being
on the same continent? Or did "we" also use electricity in ancient Egypt, got bored with it and decided to stick to
firewood and oil lamps? Care to mention any examples of such paintings or such usage of electricity in Africa?

jamaicanoshu:

(5) The first ships, navigational aides and first people to sail around the world was ANCIENT EGYPTIANS.

Nope. Not true. People from the Pacifics, Far East and the Americas appear to have that distinction.
Ofcourse you could give me corroborating evidence to support your claims.

jamaicanoshu:

(6) Civilization comes after the culture that creates it . Thus Egypt gave a massive jump to the rest of the world due to geography.

Take some history lessons bro....might save you face some day.

jamaicanoshu:

(7) The temple at Alexandria had all the hand written books collected there. Ptolemy closed all the other temples and deposited all books in one single temple because, we would not build him a white version of Osiris. After copying these scrolls they burn't the temple to the ground leaving AFRICA without the cultural base to rebuild. The secret grand lodge of Masons that built Europe and America ORIGINATED IN Ancient Egypt. (Take a look at the U.S dollar) We will rebuild this esoteric knowledge base across AFRICA.

Wondering where you get your own version of history from? Which temples did the Ptolemies close in Egypt?
And which white Osiris are you talking about?
For your information the people who ran the library at Alexandria were mostly Greeks, Jews and other groups including the native Egyptians.
The burning of the library had nothing to do with "spiting" whatever group of Africans you were referring to.
There are atleast four different burnings of the library...from Julius Caesar's to Theodosius to the arrival of the arrival of the Muslims.
When you say "cultural base to build"...are you implying ALL of africa was in some way linked to ancient Egypt and thereby affected by
her legacy?
Finally the Masonic emblems of the USA originate from many sources including Egypt and all of that still have little or nothing to do with
sub saharan Africa. Or did you not get the meaning of the OP's lamentation?

jamaicanoshu:

All these other cultures that are ahead of us why are they claiming to be Ancient Egyptian . Why are they not content with their obvious super people status ? Are they afraid that if we discover our super past we will overtake them ?

Again who is "us" and who is "they"?
I put it to you that if the whites had not come to Africa, most of the ethnic groups in sub saharan africa would have had no knowledge
of Egypt or even the world. It is highly probable that your knowledge of Egypt, the dynasties, hieroglyphs, art and culture of Egypt came from the whites.
If you care to challenge the above, name your ethnic group and give me their oral history of Egypt.

jamaicanoshu:

If only 10% of Black AFRICA WOULD SUFFER WITH OUR INFERIORITY COMPLEX AFRICA WOULD RISE IN NO TIME! We former Zombies now free must help other African Zombies to free themselves!

LOL...you ended up concurring with my conclusion...the OP's writeup is probably driven by inferiority complex.
He actually wished some globally recognized civilization were found in his ancestral land...even if it had to be at the cost of slavery and colonization!
What could have driven an African who knows the plight of Africa at the hands of the European slavers and colonial masters
to wish such had come true?

In summary my points...stop feeling inferior because of other people's legacies and build your own!
You actually can if you want to, not laze around and speculate on histories that had little or nothing to do with either
you or your ancestors.

Finally go easy on the Afrocentric diet bro...might save you face some day.

@OP

I think the OP and the guys who support his write up have come to the point where a certain level of knowledge has dawned on them...coupled with the attendant inferiority complex(lol).
Yeah for you to wish sub saharan africa was colonized by ancient egypt...after experiencing colonization by the Europeans and the transatlantic slave trade...indicates among other things...
1)A not too subtle declaration of the "inferior" status of your ancestral land and heritage. Ponder on the implications of your statement b4 arguing this.

2) Your just realizing that africans probably were not and are still not ready for civilized government. Incase you want to argue this point...give me an example of a successful African country run by africans without input from the West.

3) While the rest of the world were busy innovating in sciences and technology...whilst the rest of the world had gone beyond reading and writing to establishing public libraries....while the rest of the world were busy opening up schools and institutes...africans were not even aware of what was going on in the rest of the world.

4) While the world was navigating the seas,oceans and charting the skies and stars...their ancestors were busy marrying more wives and sacrificing more innocent human beings on a daily basis to appease gods who went awol when the colonial masters came calling.

5) Maybe the british and french colonial masters should not have left. Maybe they should have stayed on like the boers in SA and inculcated some modernity into the backward african populace. Don't beat it...its the fact, south africa was not built by the zulus and xhosas...its a white thing.
But ofcourse you can prove me wrong.

Admit it...you silently cringe at the realization that the rest of the world had left sub saharan africa behind...millenia ago. I did too.

But the question is...what are u gonna do about it?
Sit around and muse over the glorious slavery in the mines and fields of ancient egypt ur ancestors would have been subjected to by the nubians and other rulers of ancient egypt?
Or imagine what pride you would have been able to flaunt at the whites when you display the cultural dividends of ancient egyptian colonization and slavery of your ancestors by the ancient egyptians? Maybe a pyramid here or two in Ashanti land or Hausa land...maybe some papyrus scrolls buried in some tombs across west africa...to show africans could actually read and write before the islamists and christian loving invaders came?

Get over your day dream bro!
Fold up ur sleeves, engage ur imagination and do something significant in ur lifetime!
It was men of flesh and blood that built those civilizations you secretly envy.
We africans simply lack imagination, self consciousness and discipline.
Nothing whatsoever keeps us from building great and glorious civilizations but our own minds and beliefs.
Maybe angry awakened guys like you can do something about it.

omojie:
please Mr Igbo translate the ika language that i wrote in my article and from what you wrote iwu ozuor le obolo, that's what u are.
2. ika people know who they are and we have decided that long ago ,if you like continue to fool your self .
3. ika people have never claimed to be benins but we acknowledged our blood line with them and we also have blood line with igbos but i think many igbos are still suffering from i know it all syndrome and that is the reason why they always run into trouble with their neighbours and they also lack respect for others , or how can you sit in your villages or harmlet that Europeans helped to build and tell an ika man who his farher is ?
4. igbos should thank europeans for forming the igbo ethnicity , the igbo ethnic group did not exist 250 years ago ? and for your informAtion it was not formed by God but by british who brought some people together under igbo ethnicity.
5. rhe yorubas claim oduduwa as their ancestor please tell me who is the ancestor of the igbo? they dont have one ancestor , the only thing they have is ,it seems this town is speaking a close language then they are igbos ,what a sad situation , rhats why they speak with different voices on critical issues
6. igbos can pretend that they dont know that ika people bear benin names or what a nation filled with propaganda , let me tell you majority of ika people have benin surnames.even if an ika is ifeanyin okafor .if you trace his grand father or great grand farhers name it will be an edo name
7. are you not aware that the owner of zenith bank ,jim ovia is ika with a benin name ,? are you not aware that the owner of thisday newspaper is nduka obaigbena and obaugbena is an edo surname , while first name nduka is igbo ,are you not aware of ehiabor osaigbovour , or steven osagie the obi of akumazi is an ika with benin name or Dr emmanuel efeizomor is obi of owA.,he has a benin name .but it seems you can only see when an ika man is okafor ibe .that means you are blind to reality.
8. right now history is history and we are aware of how people migrated into ika from both edo and igbo areas but we are ika ethnic group ,different from igbo or benin.the igbo people should show maturity and respect ikas for who they are , instead of their dumb arguwment that ika is igbo.
itsekiri speak a language close to yoruba ,isoko is close to uhrobo language , ishan is close to benin language yet benins dont shout thar ishan is benin , neithet do yorubas shour that itsekiris are yorubas and uhrobos dont shout that isokos are uheobos just on the account that their languages are sumilar, i dont know why most igbos cant show this kind of matured attitude ?
finally mr igbo ,am still waiting for to translate ogen edei oku hun ri a ri. pls translate it , dont run away frim it and also tell me the words that are igbo and those that are not ?
?

Pained much? Hahahahaha
It appears you are not very intelligent.
I do not have to be Igbo to discuss Nigerian history...neither do I have to be Ika/Anioma/Igbo to join in the discussion.
I'm just very interested in this particular history...its rather intriguing observing the claims and counter claims from both sides.

Anyway, you avoided my questions...why?
Why should I answer your questions first?
If Ikas are Binis or Igbos or Fulanis...it adds no drop to the ocean.
The sun will still rise tomorrow...so quit your self-flattery...you are not that important.
And I dont think anybody is CLAIMING anything, or other people for that matter.
You give the impression that the Igbos want to take over Ika land and chase you people out, or maybe
by claiming Ika land, they will suddenly claim all the diamonds, gold, silver and crude oil in Ika land.
I am quite conversant with Eastern Nigeria to know the Owerri people do not encroach on the lands of the Orlus or Okigwes.
I also know the Onitsha people do not claim the Idemilis or Nris. Same goes for the Abribas, Ohafias and Aros.
They all generally mind their business and recognize they all share a common heritage under the Igbo umbrella.
Where you folks got the idea that pointing out that Ikas speak an Igbo dialect and practice Igbo customs...is equivalent to
Igbos CLAIMING Ika...is just silly and childish.
You are the ones creating all the confusion. Why are you Bini people still having Igbo stuff in your midst?

The really interesting part of this story is that the Binis totally ignore both you Ikas and the Igbos.
They have never acknowledged your mythological kinship with them.
Maybe your Ika elders have forgotten that part of your history...that the Binis know exactly who you folks are.
If you are Bini migrants....they know. If you are Igbo people...they also know.
And not just the Binis...but the Igbos also have been dealing with you folks before the colonial masters.
They know the language they use in communicating with you.
They too know exactly who you are and where you come from...I hope you remember that.
Its like your childhood friend who grew up with you till you became a man suddenly claiming he grew up in Russia.
You'd call him out real quick.

You folks should take a chill pill and quit with the inferiority complex. Its sickening.
And lest I forget...

omojie:

iwu ozuor le obolo
?

...is pure Owerri dialect. Bet ya didnt know that. Atleast I know the "ibu" and "iwu" differences.
And I know the folks in Asaba going down would have used "ibu ozuor".
Question to you folks still remains....how come?

Meanwhile...@ozuor & obolo...back at ya.
Peace bro.

pazienza:
According to Intelligence report
(1932), "1n 1915 the Mbiris attempted to
put themselves directly under the Oba of
Benin, and sent a large sum of money to
the Oba to gain this end. It is obvious that
it was at this time that the present Chief
went to Benin and received the title of Obi
from the Oba, along with the Ada, or
ceremonial sword, which forms part of the
regalia of this title. They were again
visited by the district District
Commissioner who told them that they
were part of Agbor District and could not
therefore come under Benin"(Intelligence
report 1932: 10).

LOL...pathetic aint it?
And the same old concocted fairy tales continue trending from great-grand fathers to grand fathers to fathers to sons.
They were not just smart enough to complete the destruction of their ancestry by switching completely to Edo language.
Smh.
Is it that they have no imagination to set up their own kingship traditions if they so desired or they have been
suffering this inferiority complex since ages ago?
Going all the way Benin to bribe the Oba just to legitimize an already autonomous and independent chief's status?
Wow, I doff my hat to the ancient Bini empire and her nobles! It does not get more royal than this.
No wonder they don't take Igbos seriously everywhere they go.

Care to forward me the link to this intelligence report? Would be obliged.

omojie:
1. why are igbo people so propagadish , they wont let the ika people be ? ika has rejected igbo long ago and i dont know why they are just bodering themselves , during the civil war , when igbos claimed ika was part of igbo , the ika people rejected them , and so if the chips are down ,majority of ika people know where they belong to and they know they are not igbo .
2. ika people have two languages that is ika -which is a hybrid of edo and igbo with some yoruba and indigenous words added to it , and ozara which is edoid.
3. ika language is dinstinct from igbo , and benin , its is not standard igbo nor is it standard benin , it is a language with 6 to seven dialects . that is why by next year the college of education in agbor will start a department called ika language department, the new testament has been concluded using ika language and the ika dictionary will soon be out .
4. ika ancestors came from several places including benin, ishan, ora, igbo, ndokwa, oshimili, and other areas .
5. ika people sometimes have both first and surnames being benin names such as -------
a. osabor idunorba
b. ikpanmiose igbedion
c. olaye- owabor
and we also have ika people with igbo names as first name and benin names as surnames such as ---------
a. nduka obaigbena
b. nduka irabor
c. ifeanyi eboigbe and others ,
and we also have ika people with english first names and edo surnames such ---
a. steve iwerebor
b. steve omojafor
c. tony omordia .
so that settles the name issue but i bet you that ika people have majority with edo surnames . so are they now edos or because some of them have igbo names , then they are now igbos ? the truth is that we are ika people , we are neither benin nor igbos .
4. in 1930 , bennis told the british that ika people are benins , but we rejected and told the british that ika is not part of any ethnic group in nigeria . and in 1967 , igbos claimed ika and we still rejected and set it right .so there is no way ika can be igbo ,
5. as for culture , ika culture is predominantly edoic , with little part that is from igbo land ,let me give you a list of some of our culture and then you can tell us whether it is igbo or edo culture?-------------------
a. our kingship is from father to son with edaiken as crown prince and we use the uselu style in crwoning our kings .
b. we have three levels of chiefs ,1. palace chiefs, 2. town chiefs and 3. hereditory chiefs.
c. our villages are divided into ebon, idumu and ogbe.
d. our ancestors believed in oselobue as supreme God and ehi as guardian spirit of man .
e. we believe that olokun is the son of God .
f. if a man dies he goes to orinmin -the heavenly world .
g. we believe there are many gods who asisst oselobue such as idigun-god of iron, ohunmweeden, ovia, aja, mkpitimen-god of thunder, araba-god of peace , ali, ikpai and others .
h. we believe that idinwina spirits assist in maintaining other amongst the women folks and forces of nature .
i. we believed in satan called ojuwu and ighionghai as evil spirit.
j. we beieved that our kings are semi-divine and descendants of olokun .
k. we as ika people believed that igue and ibiewere festival is done every year to signify the end of the year and the obi is greeted --- iselogbe .
l. we also perform the iwagi festival to celebrate new yam .

6. the chieftancy titles in ika mostly go by edo names but we also have few that are along the igbo lines and they are recent titles and they dont carry much significance , while the important titles are from the edo lines .

7. let me say that ika language is a distinct language in that , its a hybrid of both edo and igbo languages and as such it would be very absurd for igbos to claim ika is igbo language , even if it is listed as igboid language , it is still different from igbo , it is an ethnicity and language of its own , just like itsekiri can sometimes be said to be yoruboid , but itsekiiri is a seperate ethnic group and language , isoko, uhrobo are said to be edoid , but they are different tribes from benin and they are also distinct languages .but i wonder why igbos cannot exercise the same maturity yorubas and benins use , while not shouting that this is edo and this is this ?
8. ogen edei oku hun ri ari , oku hun le oselobue ri , oku ahun wu ukpe ihian ile ,ukpe ni bia da shia eri banyeni oselobue ,uwe ile , nu eri ukpe ni , ke wen utormin le ndun itebite. this is an example of the ika spoken in owa , we have many other ika dialect , I WILL LIKE AN IGBO PERSON TO INTERPRETE THIS INTO ENGLISH , LETS SEE HOW MUCH YOU KNOW OF IKA ?
finally ika has never in history been an appendage of any tribe whether igbo or benin , we are just ika ethnic group and we will like to be respected like that .and that is why up till date , there is no prominent ika person in ohaneze ndigbo but ika people belong to ogua/onu ika. we acknowledge the migrations of both edo and igbo and others into ika , but as of today we are ika people

Hahahaha....you reek of deeeeeeeeeeeep inferiority complex!
Just like all your deluded and lying elders! Yep I said it.
Same old self-deceiving trick of highlighting Bini words, practices and influences, while forgetting over 80% of what you
show to the world is clearly Igbo.
You cleverly leave out the fact that the names most Ikas bear ARE PREDOMINANTLY IGBO NAMES like Ifeanyi, Amaka, Emeka etc.

You see, I have studied enough of the languages and dialects in the East to know that they are very very diverse.
I actually thought I could pick out Igbo words until I heard Aguleri and Nsukka people talk, or maybe you have not heard Ebonyi folks talk.
I'm sure you would agree that those people can claim not to be Igbo if you hear them talk.
Informed people tell me the Igbo spoken in Anioma is by far closer to Central Igbo than the Igbo spoken in Imo state!
So what gives? How come?

Why are you folks so pained over this Igbo issue?
Generation after generation you hold on to Igbo language, Igbo traditions...while pretending to be Bini people.
I'm not even going to bother telling you what the Binis think about you lots.
Its confusing really.
And why the Bini obsession? What's up with the whole fascination with everything Bini?
If you have Bini influences in your kingship traditions and socio-cultural setup...does that make you Bini people?
Bini is just a stone throw from Ika and borders Ika land. You should never had anything Igbo in your midst
if you are truly sons of Bini princes...that would be a disgrace to the ancient Bini empire.
At the least Bini migrants should be speaking an EDO DIALECT like the Afenmais and Ishans.
No Edo speakers have anything Igbo in their language or culture. Prove me wrong.
Even the Eletu Odibos, the Obanikoros, the Elekos in Lagos can trace their family tree name by name, generation by generation
to even the family compound in Bini.
There is no hidden history or controversy about origins unlike you messed up pretenders.

Here you are a proud Bini man telling the world you speak a hybrid of edo and igbo!!.
What happened to your great and superior Bini tongue? You left it for the inferior and rejected Igbo language?
A proud edoic people practicing iwa gi/ji? Wetin na? Are Igbos that powerful?
Like seriously, your great and mighty and superior Bini traditions gave way to inferior Igbo cultures?
On one hand you fought against Bini hegemony and have a long history of rebellion against the Obas of Bini,
on the other hand you are actually Bini people...who came from Bini...but somehow speak an Igbo dialect, bear Igbo name and all that!
One Ika writer even was shameless enough to attribute it to "language dynamics"!! Haba!!
What are we to believe? Are you folks so ashamed of your obvious Igbo ancestors?

Lets take a look at the names of Ikas two current famous faces, the CBN governor and Delta state governor.
What is Bini about Ifeanyi Emefiele or Ifeanyi Okowa? Are they not proud Bini Ikas any more?
Why are they bearing Igbo names? Out of fear of the Igbos or maybe the Igbos forced their fathers to adopt
those names after they traded at the Afor or Eke market day at Umunede or Agbor?
What is the meaning of Emefiele in Edo? Okowa you know means "man from Owa"...where is the Bini in that?
Go ahead and tell me they are not "real" Ikas.
Or Okowa is actually "Okhiowa" like some claim EzeChima is actually "Ikhime".
You niqqas are just pathetic.

Its one of 3 things....
1) Ikas are a Bini people who migrated from Bini but met Igbo people on ground and over time acculturated and now speak a mixture
of Igbo and Bini.
2) Ikas are Igbos who migrated from Igbo mainland but met Bini people on ground and over time acculturated and now speak a mixture
of Igbo and Bini.
3) Ikas are made up of a mixture of Igbos and Bini people who migrated to Ika land at different times and over time borrowed from each other's culture and language and now speak a mixture of Igbo and Bini.


Be aware of the following though...

[b]If you pick 3...that means the Igbos were the natives and hosts to the Bini migrants cos your spoken language is PREDOMINANTLY an IGBO dialect. The core Igbo roots across Anioma is still very strong TILL TODAY! And that also means the Bini migrants in Ika are a very very
small minority who acculturated quickly and just retained some Bini surnames like Iwerebor, Edobor, Obaigbena etc.

If you pick 2...that means you are just Igbo people who were influenced by Bini socio-cultural practices. Cos all of those Bini style ish
you guys have is JUST BORROWED. You know, Bini people know, everybody knows it...so don't go there.

If you pick 1...your entire argument and claims then is ENTIRE VOID AND NULL...cos history defeats your claims till tomorrow.

If you didn't pick any...and claim that the language Ika people speak is just "similar" to Igbo because of trans-Atlantic Afor market day trading
going on between the hinterland inferior Igbos and the superior Bini Ikas,
then you truly deserve my apologies for dissing you...as your case of delusion and inferiority complex needs help.[/b]



Your call.

Cargoed:
Rosotom will make all their money from building not running.
What is forcemajore in this project?

Can they tell us which of these natural disasters is due in Nigeria?

1) Tsunami 2) Equatorial sunflare radiation 3) Flooding. 4) Volcanic Eruption we are due every 1000yrs when was the last?
5) Earthquakes 6) Terrorism 7) Mudslides
Hurricanes Twisters Cyclones
9)God knows....

See Ebola is 100times better than a nuclear disaster. Even Isreal can return to their land after 100yrs. This one you can return after only after 20000yrs.

This was the same argument that the kleptomaniacs and ignorant crammers you call Nigerian academics use to justify
all the white elephant projects of the past 50 years.
Are you serious?
An oil producing economy that runs on generators...wanting to go nuclear?
I'm aware that nuclear power generation is actually cheaper, safer and more effective than both coal and hydrothermal plants,
but DO WE HAVE A MAINTENANCE CULTURE?
In this year 2015, once a few drops of rain hits the ground, your PHCN presses the off button.
We have never been able to run any power plant successfully since independence.
We are still making headlines all over the world because of gas pipelines vandalization...that's one of the craziest stories of this
century! A people vandalizing their own gas pipelines!
Here you are calmly feigning ignorance as to the depth of our carelessness and disregard for quality and performance.
The funds for running that facility will go into private pockets. You know it and I know it.
The needed priority that we have not given to our general hospitals, is one we'll no magically start giving nuclear
facilities WE DID NOT BUILD?

You guys should better wake up from your delusion. It takes years of local training, research and experience
to handle nuclear technology. We all know we are not there yet.

We do not YET have the required level of EXPERIENCE AND R& CULTURE to manage nuclear facilities.
As experienced as Japan, the old Soviet Union were, check out the results of radiation leakages at
Iraq, Chernobyl and Fukushima.


SOURCES:
https://thefukushimaradiationtreereports./mutations-pics-and-vids/
http://himachalwatcher.com/2014/01/15/climate-change-energy-crisis-is-it-time-to-reconsider-nuclear-energy/
http://www.robertschoch.net/Radiation%20Fukushima%20Nuclear%20Mutation%20Radioctive%20Isotopes.htm
http://www.globalresearch.ca/science-with-a-skew-the-nuclear-power-industry-after-chernobyl-and-fukushima/28875

ROSSIKE:
Do you realise Nigeria has owned and safely operated nuclear reactors for the past 40 years? You people just open your mouths and garble rubbish because you are so ignorant and uninformed, with no interest in learning anything. Nuclear facilities are the world's most regulated infrastructure and must always pass stringent tests before they can even function, as per in-built mechanisms. Plus they are subjected by international law to the most stringent inspections and maintenance processes of any technology in existence. They are never just left to the host nation to operate as they see fit. You simply don't know what is involved. You just hear "nuclear" and you start screaming "yepa" like demented market women. I don't even know why the govt bothered informing you dunderheads about anything. They should have just kept it quiet and ignored their buffoonous populace.

Dude please stop rooting for incompetence.
There is no point to prove...millions of lives are at stake here.
As much as I believe we have the potentials to excel in any pursuit...reality must be faced and squarely.
A cabal in high places that didn't allow NEPA to work, currently making sure the whole PHCN setup is a joke...will suddenly have a change of heart and forego their diesel profits to nuclear power?
Do you have any clue as to the organized vandalism of our gas pipelines...all to line the profits of some demented folks selling petrol and diesel?
Have you considered the ever present tribal sabotage syndrome?
A country that has never been able to run its economy on conventional power plants...suddenly wants to go nuclear?

Get a grip abeg. This is disaster waiting to happen!
Nigeria has no industrial experience with nuclear technology or manning such high precision facilities!
Coupled with our glaring lack of maintenance culture and lackadaisical attitude to performance management/quality control...you can't seriously be advocating building nuclear plants now!
You can be rest assured this will turn into another NNPC where emirs and generals will be sponsoring their candidates for jobs they can't handle.

You've not even addressed the hazards of radiation leakage and meltdowns.
Maybe some years ahead when we've improved our educational sector and built a little history of running power plants 24/7...till then we are not ready.

LeSaint:


Nuclear plant in Nigeria?

That will be the stupidest mistake this country will ever make! I say this firmly and authoritatively.
We are toO naive, too careless, too reckless, too unorganized, too uncommitted, too unpatriotic to run and maintain a nuclear facility. In fact, we totally lack the work culture required to operate such a facility.
Just take a look at Ajaokuta Steel, the refineries, the hydro- and fossil-fuel power plants. Imagine a nuclear plant facing the same fate as those?

In a nuclear plant, the workers must be well-trained, motivated, sufficiently remunerated, insured, assured of lifetime sustaining pension. They must not see their bosses involved any form of graft, favoritism, or corner-cutting.
In other words, they cannot be distracted by material worries, such as housing, school fees for their children, or retirement.
To spell it out better yet; nuclear is NOT for 3rd world countries, and we are at the bottom of the bunch socio-culturally.

Quote me and say your own bit - but if you differ, let the plant be sited in your own backyard, and may that be far, very far, from mine!

Spot on sir!
Its either Nigerians are dumb or we typically take everything as a joke.
These frigging politicians and their empty "engineers" cum useless certificate holders most likely HAVE THEIR FAMILIES ABROAD. And can afford to jet outside the country should any emergency occur.
A country that cannot run a steel mill, cannot run ordinary hydro power plant 24 hrs, with zero industrial engineering experience...wants to embark on nuclear power generation!

Please call your reps at the national assembly to call of this project. We simply cannot handle it. Our gas plants are still being vandalized by the cabals at the top. Our rail ways are still lying rusted. We have bigger problems.
A radiation leak will have centuries of dire consequences.
Please check this link for graphic examples of nuclear damages
www.nuclearreader.info/chapter7.html

fr3do:


Like you, I don't think the idea is a good one.

You could have simply said we don't have trained manpower and bureaucracy for nuclear power, not by displaying your inferiority complex.

@bolded don't think so.
You are the one who felt inferior by my pointing out that the black man is not evolved technologically to handle nuclear power plants.
You had to defend your perceived non-inferior status by calling me a "mental slave".
You see, wishes wont change reality. Neither will bravado or positive declarations change reality.
It is action taken by men, who think with their minds and work with their hands.

Have black africans demonstrated capability to handle advanced technology...any where in Africa?
Dont tell me about blacks in America and Europe.
Ever wondered why our governors fly out to doctors in Germany and India?
Ever wondered who built and dismantled the nuclear weapons in South Africa?
In this year 2015, Nigeria is one of the biggest markets for kerosene lamps and torch lights!
Is that cool?
Acknowledging that a classmate beat you to the first position is not inferiority complex.
The world has left Africa behind...you know it, I know it...lets not sugar coat it!

The bright side is we have the same brains the rest of the developed world have, and can achieve
the same level of development in technology and science...if we put our minds to it.
Sadly at the present moment, we are preoccupied with wardrobe allowance, fuel subsidy, Premier league and
other trivial pursuits.
Maybe we'll get angry and do something about our backward societies...someday.

fr3do:


And how has cursing the black race helped any body develop technologically?

Curse? What curse?
So if someone points out to you that driving out a sports car to the express with your 2 days driving experience is a suicide mission...that's a curse?
I guess running away from reality is something Africans excel at.
Ok, I take it back. Nuclear powered plants is good for Nigeria. Infact what's your LGA? I'd like to give you plenty reasons why the nuclear plant should be cited there.
You'll have enough points after I'm done to justify citing a nuclear power plant in your town.
Let's have it...

fr3do:


Nonsense talk!
You are a bloody mental slave.


@post
What have we done with the gas the Niger Delta has?

Don't fight reality bro...won't work for you.
How many professors of nuclear technology do we have in the country?
How many independent companies do we have with practical knowledge of nuclear facilities?
Do we have a history of independent research and development...on any area of science?
Have you ever enjoyed ONE WEEK of uninterrupted light in this country?

Don't take the black pride thing too far...that will be stupid.
Evolving in terms of technology means being able to acquire, use and add to a body of scientific knowledge HERE IN NIGERIA/AFRICA.
We are not there yet.
Peace.

I wonder who sells these ideas to our ignorant politicians!
Nigeria is already blessed with natural gas in large commercial quantities...and we've not even commenced exploitation of that.
We are blessed with coal in equally commercial quantities.
The hours of daily sunlight in Nigeria alone can supply a meaningful percentage of our power needs if harnessed.
Smh...sigh.
At a time when the industrialized and developed nations are shutting down their nuclear plants and moving to wind and solar generation...we are building new ones!
Never mind that not one of our universities have any expertise on nuclear technology...or any practical R&D history on nuclear power generation.
Never mind that we have never been able to manage ordinary hydrothermal power plants for over 50 decades of independence. With all the so-called engineers working at NEPA/PHCN all these years!
Never mind that the silly federal character will be employed in recruiting experts to man the proposed nuclear facilities...where chiefs,generals and emirs will lobby for their children and relatives to be given jobs at which they have no clue!
For those who are not aware nuclear power generation is actually cheaper,safer and more environmental friendly than both coal and gas powered plants.
The emissions are lesser and cause less deaths on the aggregate than gas or coal plants.
But the IMMEDIATE EFFECTS of a radiation leak far outweigh all the pros.
Read up on Fukushima and Chernobyl.
The ONLY reason why Nigeria does not NEED to go nuclear now is...INCOMPETENCE, LACK OF MAINTENANCE CULTURE & CORRUPTION.

We simply do not presently have the discipline and knowledge to dispose spent nuclear waste.
This is a road to national disaster!
Some blackminded and black hearted cabals will still sponsor the sabotage of these plants both from within and without...thinking its the same as bursting gas pipelines.
The results of radiation leak will be felt for centuries...the entire surrounding cities have to be evacuated, land and water resources rendered useless.
Google the images of babies born in Chernobyl and Iraq after nuclear damages...you might not be able to eat your lunch today.

The black man has not evolved to that stage...where we can safely man nuclear power plants. Tribal politics, nepotism, cabal sabotage will always get in the way!
Let's improve our competence on gas and hydro plants first.

Call ur national assembly reps and indicate your refusal for that project to kick off!
I'm sure some devious IMF and world bank financiers sold those ideas to the empty minds we call our leaders.
Ordinary railways we can't build and run.
To even refine our own crude has proved herculean.
Say no to the citing of nuclear plants in Nigeria!
WE ARE NOT READY & CANNOT HANDLE IT!

Shymm3x:
*

I'm sorry, what you posited here has to be one of the most ridiculous thing I ever read. You dismissed eye witnesses, who made a documentary to slag the British colonial government for entrenching election rigging into Nigeria, and the documentary was about how the colonial government had a hand in the destruction of Nigeria. And also to petition both the British government and MI6 to declassify the rest of the files. These are old folks who have nothing to gain from antagonising anyone. So why do you think they would paint Zik of Onitsha, who had a cordial relationship with them, as "utterly corrupt" - yet never said the same thing about Awolowo, who they couldn't stand?

Also, the way you keep extolling Zik, who was the biggest opportunist ever, while admonishing Awolowo, also shows what your true intentions are. You believe Awolowo was "cunning and selfish", yet a Zik who was a perpetual opportunist and continually played the opportunist card from the Independence conference in London; to the Western house; to the Eastern house where he dislodged Eyo Ita; to the election rigging in the Eastern region and charges of corruption; to how he miraculously escaped the 1966 coup; to switching sides during the Biafran war; etc., was the selfless and straight-forward one, no? Why would anyone want to trust someone as unstable as that and someone whose politics/leaning is an opportunistic one?

Lol...calm down bro.
I'm not dissing your hero and I'm failing to see in any way how I was extolling Zik in my comment.
I have learnt to put aside emotions and calmly analyze events.
Learn to see through the fog...who benefits?

I maintain that all politicians are opportunists and corrupt...Awo and Zik included.
Also dont tell me you fell for that classic case of British propaganda...making a documentary on British atrocities in their former colonies
years after the involved persons have all died...and with no incriminating evidence that could lead to a press for redress.
There was nothing new revealed or exposed. We know Zik dipped his hand in the public till, same as Awo and Sardauna.
They were all monitored by British intelligence and regularly threatened with evidence to coerce them into compliance.
Pls dont fall for that trick!
You cant win any court case against the British with any of such "exposures" of colonial government badness.
No intelligence or information of strategic importance was revealed...just emotional balm to massage hurt egos in the former colonies.
Just like the so called Snowden exposures of CIA classified intelligence...nothing incriminating whatsoever.
Just routine diplomatic reports with no strategic intelligence.

Shymm3x:
*
Also, the way you keep extolling Zik, who was the biggest opportunist ever, while admonishing Awolowo, also shows what your true intentions are. You believe Awolowo was "cunning and selfish", yet a Zik who was a perpetual opportunist and continually played the opportunist card from the Independence conference in London; to the Western house; to the Eastern house where he dislodged Eyo Ita; to the election rigging in the Eastern region and charges of corruption; to how he miraculously escaped the 1966 coup; to switching sides during the Biafran war; etc., was the selfless and straight-forward one, no? Why would anyone want to trust someone as unstable as that and someone whose politics/leaning is an opportunistic one?

Read up on my earlier responses to Volksfuhrer.
Just bear in mind that what I wrote was an analysis of possible permutations to what had led to the events.
A lot of that was based on hindsight, historical notes...and just my opinions.
I maintain that Awo was cunning and selfish...you noted yourself that the British could not stand him.
What was opportunist about Zik's bid for the Western premiership? Was he not the party candidate and leader?
Get your facts right bro.
Awo literally cut off any hopes of compromise with either the SE or the MW.
You know how the Oba of Benin and co walked out the Western parliament and teamed up with the other groups to
break away from the Western Region.
He even imposed an Itshekiri Olu in Warri!
Read up on the Obaseki saga in the old Benin province where fears of Yoruba dominance through forced membership of the ROF
was trending.
His was a pure Yoruba agenda all the way, Zik even had pretences to a nationalistic agenda.
Awo shared no such sentiments and carefully guarded his "inner caucus" against any alliances that might even
benefit the Western Region. Read up on the history please.
Awo could have capitalized on the work done by the non-Yoruba members of the NCNC in Lagos to build a southern
solidarity against the Northern hegemony sponsored by the British...atleast they had an understanding.
His reasons for making sure Zik was prevented from becoming the Western Premier are clearly understood, but the
way in which the NCNC was sidelined in favour of Odua politics could only back fire in the long run.
You need alliances...and Zik after being booted from the West just ran into the waiting arms of the NPC.
I maintain that Awo stood to gain from a solidarity between the old NCNC Yoruba stalwarts and the Igbo NCNC stalwarts,
they could have reached an understanding to thwart the British efforts at destabilization.
You can see how the British pitted the South against the North...to the loss of both Zik and Awo.
The entire legacy of Herbert Macaulay was rendered useless and sacrificed to further his brand of Odua politics.
I'm sure you know the Oyos didnt particularly find it funny.

Shymm3x:
*

I believe you just want to hypothesise ya own fantasies to placate ya own ego. However, if you're going to do that, make it sound plausible. Anyway, I'll ask you a few questions:

1). You asserted that "The Sarduana was getting ready for a showdown with the Igbos" yet in the same breath believe that "its more probable that Awo had a hand in the 1966 coup than Zik...the hits could only favor an Awo return. Zik being an Igbo stood nothing to gain". Isn't that an oxymoron and a case of you contradicting yourself? What did Awolowo, a Yoruba man, locked up in prison on trumped-up charges stand to gain from an onslaught by Sarduana against the Igbos, with Zik as the head of Igbos in the government? And who did the coup favour - Igbos or Yorubas?

Who instigated the anarchy in the West? Who was hobnobbing with the Sardauna and Balewa?
If you can, put aside your emotions for a moment and consider the play of events.
And yes I am not contradicting myself...just seeing events from a different perspective.
It is a well known political strategy to pit two enemies against each other...to destroy themselves.
And yes, revolutions have been launched and won from prison cells...history is your teacher.
Read up on Harold Smith's analysis...the Igbos were next in line for the Sardauna's onslaught and he was quite vocal about it.
Ongoing killings of Igbos in the North had already been taking place. And there were public calls for the suppression of Igbos in
the NPC parliament and their eviction from the North.
He was bent on a total subjugation of the South and Harold Smith's notes even bears that out...that the boys struck a few days to his own
showdown.
Read up on my earlier responses to Volksfuhrer.

Shymm3x:

2). Why do you think Awolowo would have plotted a coup with Zik's cousin, Ifeajuna (I'm sure you know the coup was an Ifeajuna coup and not a Nzeogwu coup cos the latter was drafted in towards the end), to truncate a government in which his family member was part of, and kill him as part of the targets to be extinguished to "save" the country?


3). How come Zik wasn't around when the coup was executed, despite the fact that the Doctor he travelled with had returned to the country?

Read up on my earlier responses to Volksfuhrer.

Finally its possible that the January boys acted on their own accord and took the law into their own hands.
I happen to like exploring possibilities as things are not always what they seem...there are always known and unknown
interests at play.

Volksfuhrer:


The facts do not support your proposition that Awo was the likely sponsor of the coup. I believe the covert sponsors of the coup were the NCNC! Nzeogwu and co were mere pawns in the hands of Ifeajuna and the NCNC.

Zik was mysteriously away.

The NPC Alliance lost their key leaders.

No NCNC leader was killed, except Okotie-Eboh whom they regarded as a turncoat because he got too close to Balewa.

Ironsi was an NCNC man.

When Orizu (NCNC chieftain and Acting President) was asked to swear in Dipcharima (NPC) as acting Prime Minister, he refused but instead prefer to swear in Mbadiwe (another NCNC chieftain) as Prime Minister!

When the Mbadiwe kite didn't fly, Orizu (NCNC) handed over power to Ironsi (NCNC)!

The January 1966 coup was a resounding success because it was meticulously planned and carried out by Ifeajuna. IBB and co are small boys compared to this man! I know you would want to ask me about Ifeajuna's Manuscript, which was only written to get the scent off the NCNC. Besides, the idea in the narrative of the manuscript was also used to coopt necessary collaborators outside the NCNC circle!

Hand it to the NPC leaders who saw through the charade and reacted six months later with an upgrade.

Awolowo had nothing to do with the coup.

My statement was based on the fact that Awo had already been convicted and imprisoned for treason/coup plotting.
It would be too much hero worshipping to judge Awo incapable of that move.
Zik had a highly developed political intuition as noted by Harold Smith and must have sensed blood in the waters.
Or as noted by all, Ifeajuna must have tipped him off.
It is improbable that Zik would sponsor the killings just to spite the North or the Yorubas...as the murders held no promise
of high political office heads or tails. He had already been burnt out by the British and barely escaped jail.
The Igbos clearly implicated themselves, but I think you give them too much credit.
Ironsi clearly had no clue as to the reality of what had taken place or what to do as the new executive.
He seemed lost and confused.

As for the Orizu saga,the Igbo politicians also seemed to have no plan and acted to prevent the outbreak of any backlash.
If Orizu had handed power to the Northern rep, the results would likely be more disastrous for the Igbos.
With the power of state machinery any level of follow up vengeance could have been exacted and officially denied.
You know the pogroms escalated after Ironsi's elimination...they must have read the handwriting on the wall.
They were not just subtle about the refusal to hand over power as mandated by law.

I refuse to believe Igbo politicians acted in concert with Igbo military officers to murder the leaders of other regions.
It was needless as the Igbos were indirectly in power...being the teeth arms of both the military, foreign and civil service.
Even the education sector which the Yorubas dominated were facing stiff bumper to bumper competition from the Igbos.
They obviously had nothing to gain.
No matter that their politicians had been neutralized by the British, they still indirectly administered the economy and government albeit
without executive powers.
An Igbo sponsored coup would have a credible follow up plan...including allies in both regions.
The plan could not have been to hand over power to the military...the play of events after Jan 1966 does not support that.
The great mistake as pointed out by Harold Smith was the sparing of Zik and Okpara, which would have balanced the losses.

Awo had a silent vendetta against Akintola who challenged and ousted him, against Balewa who humiliated and jailed him and
against the British who made sure his dreams were never actualized. They feared what the far thinking Awo would do if given a
free hand to run the affairs of the young country.

Just read up on the Northern instigated crisis in the West and how chaos had returned to the Yoruba land...after Awo's carefully
constructed political machine for the development of the SW was dismantled before his own eyes.

Desperate men are known to take desperate measures and Awo not knowing if he would survive prison...and knowing there was no way
Akintola and the Oyo gangup would let him rise to prominence again in the Western region...also knowing he had nothing to loose apart from his
life after having being rubbished by people he considered inferior...must have had considered his options.
He would forever be a convict and have limited chances of political relevance if he were to survive prison.
Covert support from prison for the young turks was an option with nothing really to lose for him...and I venture to opine it was probable
he got involved.

Dont take my analysis too seriously oooo...I might be completely flat out wrong!
Its based clearly on hindsight and my own perception of the personalities involved and the backgrounds to the events that played out.

Volksfuhrer:


The aftermath of every war always brings out a lot of emotions that could persist for years without end, and that of Nigeria's Civil War isn't any different.

Firstly let me invite you to realize the discussion is about politicians...scheming, devious politicians, of which Awo and Zik
were prime examples. Its not about defending the honor of any ethnic leader per se. These guys had ambitions and did whatever
they could to actualize them. They are not really the saints we make them out to be.
Having said that, have you considered the background to January 1966?
The crass british screw up of the whole democratic process? The open supply of intelligence to the favoured north by the british?
It seems you imagine Awo and his camp did not have access to some measure of intelligence.
Or you think they were just sitting at Ibadan making merry and watching events unfold...maybe wondering what the whole noise
was all about?
Cmon bro, these men were politicians who could read political moves and understood the latest trends.

Volksfuhrer:


Let me be blunt. The pogroms in the North need not have resulted in the secession of the Eastern Region at the time it did. The decision was only a visceral reaction to an injustice, Biafra was simply not ready!

Accepted, Biafra on her own was not ready for any military engagement for two reasons, lack of secured funds to finance any war and lack of support from a great power that could counter the British. After all Nigeria was in the British sphere of influence and no foreign power was expected to interfere in her affairs.

Volksfuhrer:

You said Awo was contacted and offered "support", was the "support" not conditional. Did Ojukwu meet his own end of the "bargain"? Well, he didn't! And if that was the case, are you now suggesting it was okay for Ojukwu to break his promise but wrong for Awo to turn his back on him? What type of logic is that?

I'm guessing you are Yoruba by your defense of Awo.
Lets look at some facts...Awo had been blunt about Nigeria's unreadiness for independence, cos he clearly saw the British
plans in progress to hand over power to their beloved North. He saw through the game the British were playing with so-called educated South.
Literally, the British were humoring Awo and Zik, in my opinion, Awo was more conscious of that fact...and that prevented him from
going along with Zik's nationalists fantasies.
He never really wanted to be in the same country with the North, cos being a Yoruba he knew the jihadists for who and what they were.
Centuries of interaction with the Sokoto jihadists and the Oyo army had left the Yorubas distrustful of any so-called alliance with the
implacable Hausa/Fulani.
Zik on the other had no such historical antecedent, he was at best a political dreamer...albeit a highly accomplished one.
He was a dreamer in the sense that he thought he could acquire power without conquest and force of arms.

My point? Awo had been scheming for the West not to be found in the same country with the North and if possible
with the domineering Igbos. He was ready to sacrifice gunning for power at the center to play opposition...just to maintain some level
of political and economic space for the West.
When the opportunity came, he chickened out.
With the results of 15 January 1966, the murders of Ironsi and Fajuyi, the counter coup and the order for all officers to move back to their regions,
it was a golden opportunity to make his move. The SW was ripe for new leadership.Who held his hands?
Ojukwus offer was firstly to Ogundipe to stand his ground and take control of the army after Ironsi's and Fajuyi's assassination.
He was offered support in terms of recognition of army seniority and his right to head the army in Ironsi's absence.
That one too chickened out and ran to London.

Volksfuhrer:

Awo's decision had nothing to do with any foreign envoy or power, please. I've had that listless argument before. Awo wasn't just the type to pander to the whims of any foreign power. In Awo's estimation, the Western region was just not ready at the time.

The offer was likely made for Awo to take up the challenge and join the massacred East in declaring their freedom from the artificial state of the British.
They would jointly recognize each other and pursue their own destinies as they saw fit.
There was really nothing Ojukwu stood to offer Awo apart from legal recognition and joint military teamwork in case of a Northern advance.
The price was real independence from colonial control...of which Awo was more knowledgeable than Ojukwu.
Awo was already dealing with the British High commission and envoys, they knew the West held the ace card.
He could not have been left out in all the talks and meetings happening in Lagos with Gowon and the army high command.
Because if Awo chose secession, not only would the North lose access to the sea, the entire British devious game plan in setting up the North
to rule Nigeria and thereby secure their interests would be foiled.
Awo too was made offers by Gowon and the British...you have to acknowledge that.
Gowon and Awo were made aware of the strategic importance of oil and gas in the Eastern Region...why the Eastern Region would render their cocoa,kola,textile and groundnut revenues irrelevant in the West African regional scheme of things.
It was as it turned out to be...an oil war. They must have been presented with a picture of things to come with Eastern oil revenues
and the Igbos being a regional power in West Africa.
And no, the Yorubas could have mobilized enough fighting men to defend their land if it came to that...dont give me that line of unreadiness.
They lost leaders too! I think Awo and his crew were cowered or coerced into submission by the British.
It could not have been about readiness cos the SW had fighting men too, who had a history of wars and battles that Ojukwu's
Biafra never experienced before the British arrived. They knew it was war or submission.
As I have noted earlier, when the British made funds available...Yoruba soldiers led the attack on Biafra.

Volksfuhrer:

Besides, if Biafra could show through the decisions of her supreme commander that Awo could not be trusted, Awo owed Biafra nothing.
My humble submission.

Sorry but Awo owed Ojukwu and the Igbos a few things...revenge for the crass murders of Yoruba officers, support for the secession bid
as Ojukwu knew he needed to gain recognition (it was Awo's privilege to give or withold support), and sympathy for the plight
of the Igbos...if you read up what happened the pogroms were brutal.
Awo could really not have played indifferent. He was involved in the Nigerian project.
Awo played both sides...he kept Ojukwu second guessing and kept the British and Gowon making more promises.
Ojukwu knew better than to talk smack with Awo, as he held him in high regard and wanted his support.
Ojukwu was likely banking on his knowledge of Awo's desire for Yoruba land for Yorubas and Awo's desire to get back at the
British for screwing him up.
Awo chose the easier way and in my opinion chickened out.
If he had opted for secession, the British could not have done much about it...except if they had plans to recolonize.
The North would have had no option but to head back to the North, even Murtala had been shouting for secession after they had exacted
their revenge.
The British and the North were the only ones who stood to loose.
Lagos would have gone back fully to Yoruba control and the SW would have had their destiny in their own hands.
The only alternative explaination for Awos refusal to opt for secession was if the British promised the North aid in occupying
Lagos and the SW...and then sponsored military action against Ojukwu.

Finally, mention must be made of Ojukwu's naivety. He completely underestimated the British.
He must have felt in typical Igbo fashion that he was "equal" to the British cos he was educated too...and all that.
The British would never have suffered any African colony to stand up to them in global politics...if they allowed it, that would
send a wrong signal of weakness to competitors and antagonists.
Ojukwu would have eroded British influence in West Africa had Biafra succeeded, and even more, totally blockaded the North
from having anything to do with the Atlantic.
The British could not have allowed Biafra to succeed, that would have created a new axis of power in Africa...very attractive to the
Soviets and Chinese...who would not waste time in offering support to undermine European influence in Africa.
Mind you Africa provided the cheapest source of funds for the colonial masters...even after the so-called independence.
They would not let go of that easily.
Ojukwu never really understood the game of power...and it is probable that Awo saw through that and decided not to entrust the
safety of the Yorubas to some inexperienced neophyte in power politics.
It is even more probable that Awo was not sure if the Oyo vs Ijebu rivalries and intra regional squabbles would stand in the way
of Yoruba unity...who knows?

Shymm3x:


I agree with almost everything you posited apart from the excerpts about Zik of Onitsha.

Zik of Onitsha was a corrupt opportunist and he was no threat to anyone. All the posturing was for Igbo domination and to enrich himself as he did with NCNC's money with Okotie-Eboh. The Brits described him as utterly corrupt and those British OxBridge graduates who were sent to Nigeria back then called him utterly corrupt during the interview on BBC 4.

Zik of Onitsha played his card when he was ceremonial president by making sure that all the positions allocated to the South under that government went to Igbos. And when he lost out in the power struggle to Akintola - that was the reason why he colluded with Ifeajuna to plot the 1966 coup. The coup wasn't an Nzeogwu coup - that was a Zik and Ifeajuna coup.

Doesn't it sound funny listening to the Brits tag a politician as "utterly corrupt" and label him as "bad" cos he "enriched himself using public finances"?
Like seriously? A lion judging hyenas for hunting antelopes in the same jungle? That's utterly ridiculous.
All politicians are corrupt and opportunists...its the currency of the game. You are literally forced to double speak and compromise. The silly BBC idiat interviews did not bring a new revelation...its just the same old self serving posturing of the British.
These devious thieves wrote the bible on corruption and bribery. They ruled the waves through every form of chicanery, theft, piracy, posturing, falsification and badness known to man.

The fact was that Zik was setup. As Awo was.
There was little or no legal avenue to finance the NCNC political machine than through the routes those two took.
They just didn't see through the legal loop holes in the laws guiding the running of those regional offices.
The Brits had knowingly put them there knowing their self conceit and their self flattery won't allow them think strategically.
Those tricks would not have worked with the Northern emirates cos a legal Islamic system of taxation was already in place before the Brits forced their way in. They'd have seen through the whole "legal", "constitutional" and "court/judiciary" nonsense game...which was a Brit ploy to replace their native laws and authorities with Britished-coined legal nonsense.

Zik was totally gamed and he even facilitated it by his self conceit and lack of exposure to proper state politics.

I don't know if the 1996 coup was sponsored by Zik or not.
Arguments could be made that Awo was already trying to achieve what the young turks of 1966 did before he was caught and jailed. And he even reportedly tried it again during IBB's era and as they said chose the easy way out.

The new nation was looking to implode sooner than later...the British had carefully crafted a Northern hegemony. The sardauna was to use the office of the prime minister in whittling down the Igbo presence in the officer corps, foreign and civil service. The Yorubas had already been sold out by Akintola,Ademulegun and crew. The sardauna was getting ready for a showdown with the Igbos...as the West had already experienced their own wetie...with Balewa ordering the military to the streets of Ibadan.
And ofcourse the govt in Lagos was run by the North. Zik and Ironsi were largely ceremonial figure heads.
Zik found out to his chagrin what "executive" powers really mean. Awo knew the game but was too selfish and cunning to compromise with Zik.
I think its more probable that Awo had a hand in the 1966 coup than Zik...the hits could only favor an Awo return. Zik being an Igbo stood nothing to gain...as the aggrieved North and West would not live to see him usurp their positions...after the cold blooded murder of their leaders.

The January boys ultimately turned out to be revolutionaries who did not understand the game...and ended up confusing good intentions with doing the right thing at the right time.
I think they were used...and between Zik and Awo...the later was the more likely culprit.

I could be wrong though.

Shymm3x:


Err, let me correct a few things in ya post and I'll be as precise as I can.

I'd say Awolowo, despite the fact that he thrived in isolationism, perhaps due to the fact that he never really like the Fulani oligarchs, actually wanted to work with Zik. While Akintola preferred the North. Even a mad man back then should know that you can more than one region to get to the center. However, before the election - there was already a deal between the Brits and Zik, for NCNC to form a coalition with the North, hence the election was rigged in the Eastern region. The card they used against Zik and Okotie-Eboh were the corruption charges in NCNC during that period. The Brits couldn't use Awolowo cos he was too intelligent for them and never trusted their intentions, hence they opted for Zik and the corruption charges was the icing on the cake. This issue has been over-flogged on BBC 4 by Brits who were there, and they were the ones who conducted the election. Ditto a few MI6 files have been declassified, and those files add credence to it. Then you had the nonsense Zik and other Igbos were talking about during that era about how Igbos would dominate everyone and that they're the chosen people. Like seriously, who would want to work with folks as unnecessarily conceited as these people? I guess that was why Zik was kicked out of the Western region.

Also, Awolowo choosing secession back then would've been costly. The man just came out prison, and was thrown into a quagmire - that would make or mar the future, with no preparations whatsoever. And the hopes of a region on his back. What do you expect him to do? Ojukwu also never helped with the invasion of the Mid West. If the Biafrans had dug in to create layers of defenses in their region, without the suicidal military excursion into other regions - and opened one front against the North. I believe it would've been a different story. However, Ojukwu had his eyes on the oil in the Niger Delta and Lagos. And you can't go against what the powers that be also have eyes on - the Brits wanted the oil as well. That was his Achilles heel.

I laugh when these clowns run around shouting One-Nigeria everywhere. Nigeria wasn't created for none of them. The only folks benefiting from the One-Nigeria experiment are the colonists (Nigeria is fully back under the UK now) and the Fulanis. And maybe it benefits the Igbos as well cos they don't have a enough land mass for their huge population and they get more money from the country than they contribute. But I still believe Nigeria also stunted their growth. As for the rest: they're not benefiting anything from Nigeria. The first republic showed what a Yoruba country would look like, with all the strides they made. Nigeria destroyed all that.

Well...thats an interesting perspective, but certain facts still stand out.

1) The Egbe Omo Oduduwa was a calculated attempt to create a Yoruba political party, run by Yorubas and for Yorubas.
Initially the NCNC Yoruba stalwarts saw it for what it was and were reluctant to join.
Before the Adeyemos and co launched the Egbe in Lagos,
the leading party for both Yorubas and Igbos was the Herbert Macaulay-led NCNC, even after Zik took over.
You also cannot compare the Egbe to the Ibibio State Union or the Ibo State Union of which Zik was president.
Those were largely community/town development unions with limited political affiliations.
Sure they could be called upon to assist in political campaigns, but they were not a partisan political vehicle.
The Egbe on the other hand, was formed in London by some of the top Yoruba intellectuals, made legitimate and official in an elaborate
3 day ceremony at Ife, headquartered in Ibadan, and drew the line between the Zik-led NCNC and "Yoruba" politics.
It was a vehicle to whittle down Zik's influence and control Yoruba politics for Yorubas.
Zik understood the game and lashed out as expected against the Egbe.
I dont think Zikist statements no matter how provocative alienated the Yoruba core of NCNC.
Awo saw the bigger game of independence coming up and read the handwriting on the wall.
He never believed in those Zikist nationalist fantasies, cos he rightly understood the resource extraction game
the British and the Fulanis were playing. It was a colonial racket and the Fulanis were the house masters.
You were right, Awo's politics was Yoruba isolationism through and through and he was direct and unapologetic about it.


2) On the allegations of corruption against Zik, there was no reason why Zik should not have emerged the executive
of Nigeria's first indigenous government. The only reason would be his threat to more powerful interests.
Zik was a threat to the British interests, cos being an Igbo man, he had little or no respect for systems that are not driven by equal merit.
A man achieved greatness on his own, not just because of his fathers lineage or some glorified royalty.
The British knew Zik would not deal easy.
The railway lines built for the exclusive purpose of extracting mineral resources to Europe,
the Shell oil installations, the forced trade concessions, all were certain to be reviewed by Zik if given executive powers.
The Hausa/Fulanis on the other hand understood the game of serfhood perfectly...it was their native system of government after all.
Even the Yorubas, Edos, Nupes and other groups with established social hierarchies understood the concept of tribute and taxes.
It was foreign and repugnant to the Igbos and most Easterners.

All the regional premiers Awo included could have been nailed for corruption, cos they largely exercised cult status control of
public finances. Infact Awo's was the model Tinubu adopted...Zik was not even that brazen. You control the central purse
and the incoming revenue streams through various fronts.
The Coker commission against Awo in 1962 used the same strategy the British had used to neutralize Zik in 1956.
They both fell for the British mandated legal loop holes in the Regional Market Boards setup and party financing schemes.
If you did not know that Okotie-Eboh was a British plant and his unlimited funds was channeled by the British, then you may
have to read up on that aspect of the take over of NCNC by the British via Okotie-Eboh.

The British were clear that Zik would not pay homage and tribute, would not sign the secret trade deals and concessions that would give
London economic mastery over her old colony.Thus, he had to be eliminated from the executive chair.
If the election was rigged in the SE, it had to be in Okotie-Eboh's favour, not certainly Zik.
He was a cult hero not just to the Igbos but to most of the SE.

3) The January 1966 sad event was a likely response by informed officers who staked it all to end the British chicanery with
the Northerners and their stooges. They knew that the British had deliberately screwed both Zik and Awo,
were responsible for the intelligence that saw Awo in jail, were responsible for the neutralization of Zik thereby robbing him of
his rightful place at national politics. They saw the hand of the British in the citing of the army installations, future Northern military
dominance of the infantry and army high command, the whole lopsided parliamentary setup where an arid north was
allocated higher census figures than a rain forest south.
It probably was an attempt to correct the handover of Nigeria to the Fulani oligarchs and their British plants.

4) On the secession thingy, all that was needed was the appropriate funding and availability of arms.
Yorubas had tough fighting men who were ready to go all the way. You seem to silently ignore that fact, like all the men
in the SW were either dead or not available.
When the British made arms and funds available to Gowon, you know the rest...Yoruba soldiers like Obasanjo,Ariyo, Adekunle, Alabi Isama,
Akinrindade and co did most of the strategic dirty work.
Simply put, the Yorubas chickened out of the game to correct the injustices the British had been meting out to them with the
help of the Northerners.
Ogundipe was not even man enough to stand his ground and rally round what ever support he could gather
from the Yoruba officers around.
This was the opportunity Awo had been dreaming of, to cut off the artificial statehood and allow the Yorubas do their own thing
their own way.
A possible strategic option would have been to set aside the murders of Ademulegun, Shodeinde and the rest...and maybe
give the Igbos support to go up north through Benue or Lokoja to stop the advance of the Northerners, while they drove them out
and took over Lagos.
If they had pooled their strengths, they could have jointly beaten the Brits at their own game...and secured independent statehood
for themselves. The slight of the murders of Yoruba officers in Jan 1966 could be addressed later.


My opinions...

Volksfuhrer:


It's easy to talk now with the benefit of hindsight. That period was a state of heightened fear and uncertainty. Many decisions were rushed, with untoward consequences.

For instance, Awo could not have toed the line of secession because the Yorubas were not prepared for war. In the last meeting Awo had with Ojukwu, he pointed out to Ojukwu about the unpreparedness of the Western Region. He asked Ojukwu for two weeks to consult with his people, after all he understood he could never force anything on them. Awo was still en route to the West when he heard about Ojukwu's declaration of the new state of Biafra! You see, there was no way Awo would trust Ojukwu, if he could not have Awo in confidence. Awo knew immediately after Ojukwu's declaration that Ojukwu no longer needed him, which effectively destroyed any further possible alliance.

I disagree.
Awo knew very well what was at stake. To exonerate him of not knowing where the Igbo pogroms was leading
would be selective amnesia.
The Yorubas lost top leaders too...Ademulegun, Shodeinde and even the hated Akintola could not have been unavenged.
You seem to forget that.
Ojukwu never planned for war too. The build up to war just happened. And mind you reports had it that Nzeogwu
and co had intelligence on the importation of arms and plans to launch a jihad by the Sardauna...something very similar
to today's Boko Haram. And even worse...that Akintola, Ademulegun, Balewa and other elites were neck deep in the plot.
It was speculated the January boys struck a few days to the showdown to avert that.
There was a reason why Nzeogwu was given a full military burial during the war.

Awo knew what's up...and the Yoruba elders were either cowered into submission by the Murtala and his angry crew or
were advised by the British to drop any secessionist ideas. I don't really know.
But the fact remains that, Awo knew where it was headed. He had been contacted and offered support.
My guess is that he followed the advise of the British envoys and supported Gowon.
As to readiness...thats a story for another day.

Shymm3x:


You did make a few points but a lot of things are wrong in ya post.

Story for a next time.

It's past my bed time -I'm out.

Looking forward to your corrections.
Here to learn too.

carnegiefan:


No, believe me you are the kid here.

Nigeria is a lost cause; has been a lost cause since 1966.
Every political structuring and maneuverings have been to preserve privileges secured from the win/loss of the war.
The greatest lair is anyone trying to pass off other reasons for Nigeria's failure.
I'm simply calling out your lies.

Subtly changing the goal post are we?
Are we discussing Nigeria's failure only here?
The Igbos were the bedrock of GEJ's administration...that cannot be argued.
What were the gains for the SE?
Atleast the glaring lack of infrastructure in the SE could have been attended to.
Who held the hands of your SE politicians?
What special attention did they give to the SE?
OBJ was able to secure the addition of oil wells to Ondo territory, moved the LNG production plants to you know where...
Even Buhari as PTF chairman favoured the North exclusively...with no apologies.
Sanusi during his tenure at CBN was distributing the goodies across the emirates.
The SE were gamed again and again on a mere cross over bridge both by OBJ and GEJ.

FYI, Tinubu's name is etched on the annals of Nigerian politics. The personalities who schemed and strategized to bring Buhari to
Aso Rock will be remembered in vivid details a hundred years from now.
What will be the story of your cash and carry politicians?

I dont mean to taunt...just urging you to stop pointing fingers!

carnegiefan:
And @PabloAfricanus

NOBODY is Igbo political master. We are individually masters of our own fates.

As for the Fulani, "monkey dey clever be say tree dey". In Nigeria, the Yoruba have consistently played the role of the tree upon which the Fulani demonstrate their cleverness to the chagrin of other groups in Nigeria.
The last election proved that point fully.

I beg to disagree.
Since the end of the civil war, the Igbos are yet to produce a president.
Atleast even the Yorubas are back at the center after less than a decade of OBJ's exit.
The same burdens of bad leadership are SHARED by all Nigerians...so I dont get the point about "We are individually masters of our own fates.".
A simple change in policy from Aso rock would make your brothers trading across Nigeria resume the old marginalization anthem.
And there is nothing you can do about it.
Sorry but the facts indicate that the Igbos have no visible game as far as Nigerian politics is concerned.
It would have been you Igbos who should have sold the GEJ campaign to the North and the West.
You guys were the most favoured in the GEJ presidency...the lot fell on you to make sure he returned.
Even it had to entail wooing your perceived "enemies".
The results speak for themselves...
All in all...what Nigeria needs is a function government...irrespective of ethnic origin.
The sooner we work towards that...the better for everyone.

carnegiefan:


Please mourn your loss alone. Jonathan's defeat and Yoruba connivance in that defeat is perhaps the best thing that happened to Eastern Nigeria since the end of the war.

For the first time, we can all of us (SE and SS) see clearly what the game has been about.
So please leave Igbo out of this mess.
Our next bus stop is BIAFRA.

You are clearly a kid.
I have no "loss" or anything of that sort.
If there is any "bad" results from the government...all Nigerians irrespective of tribe or ethnicity will share in it.
So you might have to adjust your lenses.