Joshuabase:
[size=18pt]You Cannot disprove the existence of the easter bunny.

All these deluded christians sha, With their 2000 year old beliefs and 100 year old arguments.

My hope is that you all realize the truth real soon.[/size]

No bro, you cannot disprove the existence of the Easter bunny
As for realizing the truth… might take a while… my people really perish for lack of knowledge.
Funny thing is they do not know they are deluded.

macof:
Unification of africa? When you cannot unify a single region say West africa

This is a fantasy cause I don't see this happening without a military conquest and political domination of one African state

Not according to an uninformed bloke who probably tells his friends he speaks "African"
Who goes about equating the history and culture of the Fulanis to that of the Bantu pygmies...cos you know...they all black and stuff!
Lol!
Read up what that bloke up there is insinuating and tell me if you wont have a good laugh.
"We" gave the whites civilization!! First off...who is we?
And where is the evidence of the civilization "we" gave the whites in our lands?

Rossikk:


Can't be bothered with your long epistle which evades everything I earlier wrote, debunking your assertions.

Let me leave you with this parting thoughts...
A few centuries from now...when you and I have long departed from this planet...
The descendants of you, I, other living Africans...are going to wonder why their entire world view is entirely European.
All that you are today is a product of Western thought...I tried to awaken you to that reality...but you turned to insults.
The old glories of bygone Africans you are basking in are not visible in your village.
Kerma and her ancient culture are not replicated anywhere in your country.
None of the known culture of Egypt or Kush can be seen anywhere in your vicinity.
None of the architecture, writing, culture of Ancient Kush or Egypt can be found within your ethnic group or surrounding ones.
If there is tell me about it...not third party "quotes" and "references"! Tell me what your forefathers called a pyramid or an Egyptian uraeus.
Prove to me that you forebears knew about Egypt or Kush...that you do not need Westerners to tell your story.

If you cannot do any of the above...I'm sorry you are a western slave and will pass on that state to your descendants.
You my friend are simply living on supposedly "African" past glory. Pity!
To make it worse, I tried pointing out to you...that your history is being told by foreigners.
The bulk of what Africans know about ancient African history came from the studies of the whites.
Tell your own story...let it be a living story coming from you!
Stop being a Wikipedia historian!
If Europeans had to do the digging and documentation to unearth the majority of your so called history...I'm afraid you are either historically dead or just about to be

The Egyptians found out to their horror few years after the founding of Alexandria that Greek culture, language and religion have completely taken over their land!
Their ancient scrolls and histories had been transcribed to Greek by imperial command...and their children were now learning Egyptian religion, science and history..in Greek...from Greek teachers!
Right now this is where Africans find themselves...I tried from my first post to point that out to you.
If you are going to bask in the glory of ancient African achievements...tell the story in your own tongue, by your own people.
"Numerous references" and "examples" from Western historians can then add to or corroborate your history.

And let me re-iterate for ya...Ancient Nubia, Kush, Ethiopia and Egypt are not synonymous with sub saharan Africa.
You as expected demonstrated laughable ignorance of that fact.
Quoting Western and other African authors who only heard about Egypt from the whites...still leaves your history in the hands of foreigners!
If you cannot today tell me the oral history of your own people about Akhenaten or any of the black pharaohs of Egypt then shut it!
Piye invaded Egypt in 730 BC, after conquering the Lower and Upper Egypt...he returned home to Nubia.
If you want to claim that as an "African" thing for Yorubas, Igbos and Hausas of today...the logical thing to do would be to produce your own oral history of Piye. If you can't then go do it. That way your history and culture will be told by you...and it will be more authentic.
Else a humble submission that you've entirely lost it...would be appropriate...and thats a starting point I've been preaching.

I'm suspecting you are either an African American or a Nigerian who grew up abroad.
Those ancient cultures were distinct and separate civilizations from other ethnic cultures or groups in Africa.
Kush, Nubia, or Ethiopia does not equal Ewe, Fanti, Bantu, Xhosa, Bini, Nupe, Fulani, Yoruba, Zulu or any of the numerous peoples in Africa.
If you do not understand that...then you really need to learn more about Africa.

Ciao.

Hi Rossikk,

Passionate response I must say
But still you avoided or rather dodged my earlier questions.
Sadly the point of the discussion eluded you...that you had to resort to name calling.
You know what gives when a discussion degenerates to ad hominems...

From your responses, I can guess(might be wrong tho) that I am more informed on Ancient/Contemporary African achievements more than you.
If the tables were turned and I was the one challenged to provide documented evidence of African achievements not linked or sourced from any European...I'd provide some of the sources listed below.

The Ankh: African Origin of Electromagnetism
http://www.amazon.com/The-Ankh-African-Origin-Electromagnetism/dp/1886433127

The Teachings of Ptahhotep: The Oldest Book in the World
http://www.amazon.com/The-Teachings-Ptahhotep-Oldest-World/dp/0945708025/ref=pd_sim_14_3?ie=UTF8

These were stuff that happened before any white pickey had anything to do with Africa as we know it.
Time and space would not allow me to compile a comprehensive list of ancient African technology...which I can bet my left ball you probably never heard of.

In addition to the above, I'd give you direct accounts of what Africans did back then and what they are still able to do now.
I would tell you about how Africans navigated the deep forests and jungles of Africa using home grown technology.
Did you know the Yorubas have a technology called Oso that can be called a human GPS? With Oso hunters can stray
as they like into any forest and at any time find their way back! Even more they can teleport with Oso out of any life threatening
crisis!
Did you know Ogun worshippers can call iron bullets out of gun wounds?
Are you aware resurrection from the dead is child's play to some of our secret societies? And what's more if you are shown the secret...its entirely a natural (some would say diabolical) art!
Have you heard about the tracking skills of the Fulani?
I'm sure you do not how how far ancient Africans probed deep into what is now called electromagnetics.
What modern scientists now know as the wave nature of light and sound was discovered and manipulated centuries back here in Africa.
These are stuff you do not need to quote Talbot or anyone to write down...if you knew about them.
Sadly you demonstrated ignorance...and proved my point...your references are entirely European or derivatives of
European knowledge! If challenged you can then offer documented evidence or a live tour.

You sadly skipped the part where I asked you to provide me with oral histories personally known to you.
Let me give you an example, the sculptor Ben Enwonwu had to apprentice himself to the Bini guild of bronze casters to learn the art from them.
Now that is a living knowledge! You can actually take a bus to Bini or Onitsha and verify that history!
They can tell you the Oba who established the guilds, in what year and give you verifiable genealogies.
No need to quote anyone or "numerous examples" or "references".

As of today, I can confidently say you cannot read or write Nsibidi...neither do you know any one who can.
Also, you have never seen any book, scroll or script written in Nsibidi...neither do you know any one who has.
You calmly ignored my challenge to write in Nsibidi or produce someone who can...and ofcourse your reference was a whitey who again documented Nsibidi for you. LOL! You are not getting the joke my friend.

My comparison to the Europeans and Asians was to open your mind to the enduring nature of their cultures...something we Africans
sorely lack. The Bhagavad Gita, the Puranas, the Mayan codices (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_codices), Caesar's Gallic War commentaries, Ethiopian Amharic liturgy, Egyptian scrolls and hieroglyphs...are all available TODAY to be translated into any language.
The Maya codices quoted up there are available today...you can take a flight to either Yucatan or which ever European museum preserved the
scrolls and see for yourself.
The South Americas were probably ra.ped up to par with the Africans...yet their native written cultures and history survived.
So your excuse of European looting of African does not hold water. Why did ours not survive?
Heard about the Mayan prophecies in 2012?
I am yet to see any written sub saharan extant text available TODAY for translation. Maybe you can inform me better.
You did not even mention the Dogons of Mali and their astounding astronomical knowledge.
If you had, my question to you would have been...had the Frenchmen not documented their history and made it public...how would you an African have known about the Dogon? The Europeans,Egyptians, Babylonians even know about Sirius and worshiped the star.
Do you or any sub saharan ethnic group have any oral history of Sirius?
Help me out, give me the name for any of these planets in any African language or culture (Mars, Mercury, Venus or Jupiter).
Almost all known cultures that had a knowledge of astronomy or astrology can provide not only available astronomical texts but also give you the names of most of the planets.


You see, I had the same firebrand conviction of Afrocentrism...until I decided to face reality.
The world had left Africa behind...a long time ago.
Believe it or not...you are desperately trying to prove that Africans were up to par with the Asians and Europeans.
I am challenging you on that.
I an African, who has spent considerable time studying African history, culture, tradition, mysticism and esoteric beliefs.
My challenge to you is...prove to me that the world has not left Africa behind.
You can dare me on any aspect of African culture. I'm guessing you are the type who would run from a procession of native worshippers in your street. You strike me as the bookish type who would be scared silly at the sight of an Olokun possession trance.
Yet today, high ranking politicians in Africa and South Americas all troop to those who have that gift.
You probably have no idea how powerful a king like Ovomramwen was or what his Ishan priests were capable of doing.
Or what the Iya Agbas in the Alaafin's court were capable of manifesting.
These were men who held the power of life and death at a time when human sacrifices was a day to day affair of public life.
There were incredibly knowledgeable and powerful men and women we had who investigated and manipulated natural forces.
Yet they all fell apart like a part of cards at the appearance of a mere English "trading company".
You have no idea how angry that thought makes me.

Why am I pointing out all these to you?
My point...these men and their kingdoms/chiefdoms...were subjugated,dethroned,led away in chains,exiled and made to sign over their lands and resources in perpetuity to a foreign monarch who will probably never set foot in Africa!
Why? Why were they so easily colonized and their land, resources and people exploited?
What happened to their power and awesome technology?
I would have expected to hear of how Sango was invoked to stop the Europeans in their paths when they trespassed the borders of Oyo.
Or how Amadioha was called upon to strike dead the Europeans encroaching on Igbo hinterlands.
Or how the Hausas, Nupes and Fulanis proved whatever form of superiority they had when faced with 2 Maxim guns of the British forces.
Even the Ijebu kingdom did not fare any better. After sacrificing to the river goddess to ensure victory...their forces gave way to superior British military forces.
Goldie, an English trader bought up the whole of Nigeria from the Niger Delta to Sokoto...the title deed of your country...which the British
forced your fathers to sign over...at gun point and pain of death or exile...belongs to the British. Deal with that.
The Berlin Conference carved up your ancestral lands and that of your neighboring ethnic groups...they even named you what you bear today.
You are a Nigerian because an English trader and his wife fancied the name. And their monarch liked the idea.

I know you are an intelligent chap and can read meanings into to what I wrote up there.
Let me summarise my stand.
In terms of science, arts, technology, learning...the Europeans, Asians, American Indians have proved to be ahead of us Africans.
The Europeans out of all the races on the face of the earth have proved to have superior intellectual skills.
Their language, culture, science, religion (borrowed or not)...is the dominant influence on the planet.
They have a better documented history than us Africans. Their science and technology is way ahead of anything we have or seem to have had.
If you agree that the superior cannot bow to the inferior...they you can begin to understand why Africans generally have been at the bottom of the pole for centuries if not millenniums.
The culture of research and development, appreciation of beauty and order...which has consistently been lacking in Africa...is the bane of African development. You know the facts.
While the Europeans were busy charting the seas and oceans, charting the shorelines of continents...what were our ancestors doing?
Why are almost all African countries creations of European colonialists?
If we care to have any laudable history to our posterity 500 years from now...we need to come to grips with the reality of our situation.
And not just that...we Africans need to start doing our own thing. Do it our own way. How we want it. The exact way we like it.
We need to replace ignorance with concrete knowledge. Replace political weakness with strength. Develop our lands to modern standards and beyond...and take our rightful place on the world stage...on our own terms.
The Europeans, Asians, Arabs, Greeks, Assyrians, Egyptians all did it...their own way and left an enduring legacy.
We Africans can also do it and contribute our own quota to world history.
That is my point. Hope u got it this time.

Rossikk:


This is ridiculous. There have been numerous examples of, and references to, trade existing among many African ethnicities in the pre-colonial era. Ships sailed from present day Nigeria to as far as South Africa. Seafaring started with AFRICANS, not Europeans. In fact Africans sailed the oceans thousands of years before Europeans did. There are credible reports of ships leaving the western coast of Africa and landing in the Americas long before Columbus was born. The Olmec heads of Mexico clearly indicate West African settlers in the American antiquity. Igbo Ukwu artefacts show high technical sophistication which prove that an industrial revolution, similar to what took place in Europe, was not beyond the Africa of the period - the only impediment being the absence of the political climate which had led to to the revolution in Europe, such climate being the weakening of the monarchies by the new mercantile class expansion.

A report on Igbo-Ukwu

The archaeology of Igbo-Ukwu revealed bronze artifacts dated to the 9th century A.D. which were initially discovered by Isiah Anozie in 1939 while digging a well in his compound in Igbo-Ukwu, an Igbo town in Anambra State, Nigeria. As a result of these finds, three archaeological sites were excavated in 1959 and 1964 by Thurstan Shaw which revealed more than 700 high quality artifacts of copper, bronze and iron, as well as about 165000 glass, carnelian and stone beads, pottery, textiles and ivory. They are the oldest bronze artifacts known in West African and were manufactured centuries before the emergence of other known bronze producing centers such as those of Ife and Benin. The bronzes include numerous ritual vessels, pendants, crowns, breastplates, staff ornaments, swords, and fly-whisk handles.

The Igbo-Ukwu bronzes amazed the world with a very high level of technical and artistic proficiency and sophistication which was at this time distinctly more advanced than bronze casting in Europe. Peter Garlake compares the Igbo-Ukwu bronzes "to the finest jewelry of rococo Europe or of Carl Faberge," and William Buller Fagg states they were created with "a strange rococo almost Faberge type virtuosity." Frank Willett says that the Igbo-Ukwu bronzes portray a standard that is comparable to that established by Benvenuto Cellini five hundred years later in Europe. Denis Williams calls them "an exquisite explosion without antecedent or issue." One of the objects found, a water pot set in a mesh of simulated rope is described by Hugh Honour and John Fleming as

'A virtuoso feat of cire perdue (lost wax) casting. Its elegant design and refined detailing are matched by a level of technical accomplishment that is notably more advanced than European bronze casting of this period'.[2]

The high technical proficiency and lack of known prototypes of the Igbo-Ukwu bronzes led to initial speculation in the academic community that they must have been created after European contact and phantom voyagers were postulated. However research and isotope analysis has established that the source of the metals is of local origin and radio carbon dating has confirmed a 9th-century date, long before the earliest contact with Europe. The Igbo-Ukwu artifacts did away with the hitherto existing colonial era opinions in archeological circles that such magnificent works of art and technical proficiency could only originate in areas with contact to the outside world, or that they could not be crafted in an acephalous or egalitarian society such as that of the Igbo. Some of the glass and carnelian beads have been found to be produced in Old Cairo at the workshops of Fustat thus establishing that trade contacts did exist between Igbo-Ukwu and ancient Egypt. Archaeological sites containing iron smelting furnaces and slag have been excavated dating to 2000BC in Lejja and 750BC in Opi both in Nsukka region about 100 Kilometers east of Igbo-Ukwu.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology_of_Igbo-Ukwu

Smelting furnaces? Slag? Technical sophistication surpassing Europe? Trading with ancient Egypt? These are not signs of a backward people such as you are attempting to portray. These are signs of a medieval people on the verge of an industrial revolution.

China was not always an empire, and neither was India. I think you grossly overstress the 'differences' in Africa, and totally ignore the unifying features. There is a trail of similarity that runs across African cultures, which can be brought to bear in any unification drive. An Ibibio man may not know Ifa of the Yorubas, but he would relate to his elders, wife, community, and children pretty much the same way the Yoruba man does.

LOL
Dude I know you are smarter than this!
You see, a fact Afro-centrists always seem to silently overlook is that the bulk of their knowledge of world history
come from the very peoples they are trying to measure up to.
I challenge you to name your ethnic group in Nigeria and provide for me the following:

1) The oral history of your people about Egypt [size=16pt]before[/size] the Europeans came to the shores of West Africa.
To help you with that before you go quoting "numerous examples" and "references" done by Europeans or Africans who were taught history by Europeans...the Japanese can give you documented and oral history of Japan before Francis Xavier or Perry broke into Tokugawa Japan. Also, the Ethiopians can give you oral histories going thousands of years back of their dealings with the Romans and Greeks.
So give me the documented and verifiable oral history of your people showing they even knew Egypt existed or knew anything about Egypt.
Mind you, you must not quote any work done by any European.

2) What is the oral history of your people about these historical personalities...Alexander the Great,Isis, Horus, Osiris, Genghis Khan, any of the Roman Caesars, Shaka the Zulu, Akhenaten, Rameses II the Great, Thutmose III, Hatshepsut, Askia the Great, King Mansa Musa I,Cyrus the Great, any of the Israelite kings, Napolean I. Mind you do not quote any European or any work published by an African before 1900.
Let me learn from you just how advanced this your "parallel universe" African peoples are. Make me swallow my words that Africans have not shown much intellectual prowess historically.

3) You mentioned Nsibidi...Ok lets flesh it out. Show me a written book,religious work,scholarly work, court records or historical work done in Nsibidi extant anywhere in your area or environs that was done before the Europeans came. Mind you such a body of work must be easily verifiable by going to the said place where Nsibidi was used as a form of writing. Give dates, verifiable dates.
Also do not quote any European.

Rossikk:


Undue fear mongering. The new African constitution will have clear rules on equal representation of all groups, religions and ethnicities at central govt level. The political structure will not be dependent for success on parochial dislike for a particular group or religion emanating from some group or the other.

Apparently your reasoning is clouded by the deep inferiority complex you are trying to wash off by claiming fantasy as reality...Let me help you out.
The Japanese borrowed a lot from Ming China and other dynasties, including writing systems and Buddhism, China in turn borrowed Buddhism from India. Envoys from Japan regularly paid visits to the Emperor's palace in China. Point is there is documented evidence of cultural, military and political exchange between all the known civilized peoples in ancient and contemporary history.
What political exchange existed between the different tribes and ethnic groups in Africa before the Europeans came?
I know about the Hausa/Fulani, I know about the expansionist wars of the Bini empire, the Kwararafa wars, the Oyo empire and the Dahomeys.
Was there a common and organized political structure that was established enough to glue all these various people together?
The Hausa/Fulani and Kanem-Borno history was a history of Islam...converts of Arabian sky daddy vendors slaughtering their fellow black africans who refuse to confess that Muhammad and his sky daddy were the best thing since pounded yam. It was not an AFRICAN thing.
Till today, Yoruba historians are so ridden with the same inferiority complex you are exhibiting that they almost all unanimously claim Oduduwa
came from Mecca. Though if you ask them to give you an oral history of Mecca or the Arabian world before the whities came they cant.
The Igbos on the other hand have taken the game to the next level, some claim to be Hebrews from the tribe of Gad/Benjamin, ask them to give you any oral history of Jerusalem,Abraham, Jacob or any of the Isrealite kings they cant.
My point is...whatever political systems that were AFRICAN and found in AFRICAN societies were in almost all cases local to the affected peoples.
The Oyo Mesi of the Oyo empire was largely unknown to the peoples east of Akure. The courts of Kano, Kanem Borno and Sokoto were unknown to most of the people below the rivers Benue and Niger areas.
A mere 7 years after independence and a whole new country of united Africans, sharing common values and histories (according to you) erupted in civil war. Ditto other European created artificial countries.
You can talk about "government", "politics" and "constitution" today because the Europeans taught you those values. The bulk of that knowledge was given to you by those white foreigners. You and your fathers were taught international diplomacy and politics by your colonial masters.
If you can accept the above...then we have a starting point to discuss the way forward.
Else you can keep wallowing in your Afrocentric fantasies...no offense meant.

Rossikk:

Actually, there were other, smaller earthworks built in other cities of the Benin empire. In addition we have the massive Eredo earthworks in Ijebu Ode, said to be over a thousand years old. So you're quite wrong that such large scale construction was not ''a common heritage shared by Benin's neighbours''.

No point made...so I'll just ignore this part.

Rossikk:

Considering the destruction and looting they left behind, I think it's best you allow the Europeans to speak for themselves regarding ''what they met''.

LOL...I bet you if the Europeans had not documented even the destruction and slave trade people like you would have never known such things took place. If the Europeans had not drawn portraits and taken pictures of the peoples they met in Africa...you would still be ignorant of your own history. Let's leave it at that.

Rossikk:

That's a ludicrous claim. Nsibidi was widely used in southern Nigeria and Cameroun prior to the arrival of Europeans.
https://www.nairaland.com/2291898/igbo-ideograms-grave-stones-virginia

Dude answer the first questions I posed up there...and while you are at it...do a thread in Nsibidi for us.
Invite one or two of your Afrocentric friends to write in Nsibidi here...discuss any topic. Lets see how precious and advanced this Nsibidi writing is.
Let me add that I will disregard any comment you make on this if you do not provide me with a thread started by you or anyone you know in Nsibidi.

Rossikk:

I think what we need is an African 'Illuminati' - a select group of people - necessarily secretive - who plan the continent's direction over say, a renewable 500 year period, and have influence over the African ruling class, in pushing forward their agenda. This is essentially what the west did to attain their dominance. It had nothing to do with the average westerner being smarter than an African.

We do not need an African Illuminati per se...what we need is a love of beauty, knowledge, order and technology.
Based on that foundation, we can then borrow from each other without fear, bigotry and ignorance getting in the way.
The so called advanced culture of the West, Far East and Middle East was accomplished by single men who built a followership over time.
One man came up with some grandiose concept, idea or technology...that offered value to the people...and that was it.
Nimrod came up with the the first documented organized military. He also invented the cult of the Earth Mother that has been traced to almost every organized religion in ancient and contemporary history.
Horus built a followership in Egypt after overcoming his uncle Set. His dynasty invented the religious mythologies and religious societies that has been copied by the Freemasons and likes.
Anaximander, Anaximenes,Amenhotep, Aeschylus,Archimedes,Aristophanes,Galileo, Robert Hooke,Kepler,Plato,Aristotle,Huang Di,Zhu Ge Liang,
Yi Xing,Cai Lun, Zhang Heng...so many I can not name here.
Someone invented the compass,astrolabe,levers,wheels,calendar...too many universally useful inventions.
These were the products of men of prose, literature, history, mathematics, chemistry,physics, medicine, astronomy, military strategy and other sciences and arts.
We need men who have a profound love of knowledge and beauty. Who are willing to build an enabling environment to allow such values to thrive in their life time and for posterity.
No Illuminati in the control of greedy, superstitious, selfish, kleptomaniac, envious, dull and unintelligent Africans will make that happen.
It starts with you...one man...facing the reality of what is.

My opinions.

And here we are… on the same road to no where in particular.
States are still borrowing to pay salaries without accounting for previous allocated funds..
Roads are still as bad as ever…
Our airports are still eyesores….
Unemployment is on the rise…
Bombings are still happening….
Looters of public funds are still in charge of the economy…
Our banks and telecoms stilll run on generators…
Alll our shopping malls and plazas still have generators tucked away in one corner…
Our universities are not improving...
Our governors still fly out for medical treatment…
After reading up on the latest bomb blasts….im just wondering… is something wrong with the black man?

MizMyColi:


Waow!
I finished reading it.
Every word.
Thanks for this.
I appreciate.
I concur with all you wrote down.

@finished
Enjoyed ya writeup too...was refreshing coming from a lady.

MizMyColi:
This is why people are certain that I don't believe in God.

I have a problem with a god who judges me silly.
I have a problem with a god who is always punishing me.
I have a problem with a god who is emotionally unstable and almost manic.
I have a problem with a god who is double faced.

The earlier Most Christians realize that they have been sold a false concept of God, the better.

Sometimes, it takes leaving the "faith" completely to find the true God.
You will then realize that it/he has always been a part of you....a powerful force/dimension which the world and mind couldn't possibly fathom.

Now that is the paradox of our FAITH.

The bible is good, yes.
But I can bet my one cup of rice that most of us read it in very awkward ways....no wonder the letters keep killing us...instead of making better.

Simply put...
I don't believe in that gruesome hell fire.
That God that punishes people heartlessly for eternity without any plan to restore ALL men to himself is heartless and is MY DEVIL.

I understand that many of you will read this and feel bad. But that's a good thing. With time, you will forgive the militancy of my message and accept the core of it.

That God in you, God within...is love.
There is no iota of darkness in him, there is neither shadow of turning. His forgiveness and will to give you abundant life can never seize. You are an amazing work of creation...the condemnation and guilt and sense of separation, even the fear of hell and worth nots that you are experience are not of God.

Be aware today.
Be aware of presence, be aware of Christ in you...it/he is your only hope of glory.

You dear, are a gem!
Pity some folks are so deeply invested in the boogie man sky daddy fairy tale...
That they just cant break themselves free of that cunningly crafted story that has enslaved hundreds of millions.
But that's ok...cos I was once at that stage where I'd defend the imaginary Jewish sky daddy with every bit of my being...
Until I put ma thinking cap on...and after examining the utter dementedness of the whole thing...realized its just a tool
by some smart minds to perpetuate themselves in power...generation after generation...century after century...millenia after millenia.
It is truly the addictive opium of the ignorant masses.

I'm spiritually advanced enough to know there is an Intelligence behind life as we know it...
And the whole of visible creation bears out that fact...
But that Intelligence, that Supreme Mind, that Causeless Cause...is definitely not an exclusive tribal entity of Arab camel drivers
and jewish wanderers...
That Supreme Mind is also not a vengeful and warring tribal "god" destroying the enemies of some wandering jews...
That Causeless Cause is also not sitting somewhere up there waiting to be appeased by the blood of His/It son....wait for it...who happens to be the same as Him/It-self!! Mind numbing incongruity to say the least.
The Creator of life...is all energy, all power, all life.
To attribute personal attributes like love,joy,happiness, prosperity, success,defeat,failure, sickness, disaster, etc....to Him/Her/It would be
a failure of the human mind. And thats okay, because the only way the finite human mind can contemplate the Infinite Mind is to "imagine" Him/Her/It in finite terms...using familiar human metaphors.
We can only use our minds to imagine descriptions of Him/It...nothing more...nothing less.
A god that is subject to the emotional and sentimental ways of man...is definitely a product of man's imagination.
Just observe nature, space, the skies, mountains, volcanoes, the wind, the seas and oceans...they are not subject to "feeling good or bad".
They all operate under fixed laws that man can not break...but can only understand and adapt.
So, the Creator and Originator of the universe is definitely beyond and above all that is human.
Some of those imaginations are just silly...like the whole Islamic Allah or none story
Others are just plain hideous...like the horrendous and hideous Christian concept of a righteous and loving "god"...

You have to forgive them...cos the majority of so-called believers have been thoroughly desensitized to the humongous absurdity and
hideousness of what they attribute to their "god". Hell, purgatory, eternal damnation...
On the other hand, there are indeed natural forces at play in the phenomenal world...
Our native religions discovered these natural forces and personalized them using imagination...
They simply discovered the principles of their operations and found ways to harness the energy of the natural forces and energies
behind natural phenomena like thunder, rain, wind, fire, health etc.

Check out the Indian Vedas, Egyptian cosmology and the Ifa corpus.
Science on the other hand is just beginning to unravel the the mysteries of nature...and it all seems to be pointing to one clue...
that consciousness is the only thing in the universe.
In other words, your consciousness creates both your awareness and the phenomenal world you live in.
Check out these links.

The Emerging Physics of Consciousness
books.google.com.ng/books?id=7CAYF3FksyQC&pg=PA5&lpg=PA5

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrödinger%27s_cat
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_paradigmaholo06.htm
https://www.deepakchopra.com/blog/article/3500
http://www.philosophymagazine.com/T1_QuantumTen.html

sukkot:
[b]ahhh but you are not seeing the big picture. you are looking at the situation from a poor yoruba mans perspective who is on ground level who sees all these igbos owning shops or houses. the poor yoruba man is alarmed and thinks the igbo man is taking over. this is the myopic poor yoruba mans vision of the situation. now let me take you to the view of the rich powerful yoruba man hiding in the background controlling everything. men like tinubu who practically own all of lagos and his fellow yoruba land-owners. these powerful yoruba men know the land belongs to yoruba and they can lease it to anybody who has money. it pays you more to lease it to ndigbo because they can bring all their wealth to lagos instead of keeping it east. then people like tinubu can get the following benefits
1- you pay all kinds of taxes and levies on the land annually
2-you beautify and develop lagos when you build your structure on it
3-you pay millions of naira to lease the land
4-when you build your structure on it you employ lagosians to build it for you hence employment
5-the fact that you live in lagos means you spend all your money in lagos and keep commerce vibrant

so these yoruba dignataries are collecting money in 5 different ways from ndigbo who has leased land in lagos. it is sophisticated slavery. you are enslaved to yoruba but you dont know it because you have a house and think you are free. SO THIS IS THE VIEW OF THE YORUBA ROYALTY WHO CONTROLS THE LAND. BUT TO THE POOR YORUBA MAN HE SEES THE IGBO AS COMPETITION. BUT IN REALITY ? THE IGBO MAN AND THE POOR YORUBA MAN ARE ALL SLAVES TO THE YORUBA ROYAL CLASS[/b]

Are you this naive?
@topic The royals in dubai, abu dhabi, uae etc. have spent billions putting structures, policies and enabling environments in place to attract investments and most importantly INVESTORS… people to come and live in the arabian gulf.
Over here in africa, a bunch of niqqas as usual feel threatened by the success and enterprise of their fellow niqqas. Never mind that they did not spend a dime to build federal structures, ports, roads, bridges, infrastructure to attract business from the entire nation.
I dont think any one is doing another a favour by selling land or allowing a trader conduct his business. To assert that would be stupid.
If you cannot compete, dont complain about your rival's growing business!
I blame the federal government and the inept leadership for allowing lagos get so congested without developing other coastal port cities.
Lack of competition has made lagos appear to be have more "premium value" than say PH or Calabar.
Apparently your so called "royals" are benefitting fron that imbalance.
But contrary to what you posted...its a losing game. Generations come and go… and they who have established themselves successfully where ever take over in due course.
Its the natural progression of societal development… just ask the Jews in SA, Eastern europe, Brazil and Britain.

menix:
Hmm...

So flavour also sold gala??

Or Pato sold Gala while Flavour sold small black nylon incase u re buying more gala..


OMO I quit my suit job, off to go sell something cous all of them making it mst sell something...

WombRaiders:
[size=18pt]All wars are bankers wars![/size]

Jonathan was one of many victims of an ongoing currency war between America and BRIC nations.

America's only strength today is the worthless dollar. Dump the dollar and watch America collapse.

This is why they took out Qaddafi, Chavez and are fighting Assad .

When Jonathan wisely opted to diversify our reserves in other currencies and precious commodities and was moving more and more closer with China, the US hit back with Boko Haram and suspended buying our crude as well as getting their evil ally Saudi Arabia to flood the market with too much oil.

The US stance was and still remains that if we choose to diversify our reserves from the dollar, they will stop buying our crude. That is the simple truth and it had nothing to do with Fracking or any useless amnesty report or phantom missing girls.

Buhari and the APC were specifically propped and supported by the US to steer Nigeria back to neocolonialism controlled from Wall Street!

Just wait and see Buhari take out a $50bn IMF/World Bank to ensure that for the next 40yrs we and our grandkids remain slaves to western banks. All the noise about "no money" is specifically geared towards making the average Nigerian accept a bank loan from the IMF! If you borrow in dollars you are expected to pay back in dollars and for you to do this you must save in dollars! This is just the tip, as devaluation, redundancy in the civil work force and sale of govt assests and natural resources will follow. Blackstone is already in town shopping for which part of our country they want to buy cheaply!



This is the real motive behind all that change nonsense!

Spot on!
Any informed observer should have known something fishy was afoot when Buhari and his APC crew staged publicized visits
to 10 Downing street before the last elections.
Government after government, Africans get shafted in the rear by willing accomplices of Western imperialism.
Cant blame the West though, they put in a lot of effort in safe guarding their interests...compared to our
chop today and wait for tomorrow leaders.
A question that has always been on my mind is...what do these men do with power?
Like really what? Stack up their loots and marry more wives? Or build more mansions in America and Europe?
Sometimes I wish to believe Africans are not intellectually cursed or something...cos the glaring lack of
thinking and intelligent minds is too obvious.

My prayer is that a repeat of the IBB austerity/devaluation dose should not be visited on Nigeria.
What these old men and political jobbers gain from shooting their country in the foot is well beyond me.
They've seen it all...enjoyed it all at the very highest levels...so what's the game?
Over 50 years of rule by autocratic and despotic military rule...and they could not provide the one thing a country
as large as Nigeria needs to take off...power.
Who held their hands? Who or what prevented IBB from using military fiat to make sure the power plants worked.
Or that clownish CIA plant OBJ...$16 dolllars to generate darkness!!![b]
The very amazing thing is Nigerians have not risen up in revolt.
Sit back for a minute and think of it.
A sitting government supposedly spent $16 BILLION dollars to generate power...
Not only was power NOT generated, but the very department responsible for that huge funds was sold off less than 5 years later
to private investors!!!
What happened to the $16 billion dollars
Or the huge amounts wasted on federal roads across the country...with attendant loss in lives on the bad roads being constructed.
I wont even bother to comment on the Jonathan comedy and the circus crew of entertainers he surrounded himself with.
Something as basic as generating and distributing electricity has proved to be a herculean task.
Haba! I spit on African leaders and their minions.
Nigerians indeed deserve what they get...cos they have collectively condoned nonsense from irresponsible leaders.

Vague analysis.
Who are the so called Zionists and "jews"?
Methinks the anglo saxon/european elite are using multiple fronts to carry out their long term plans.
The so called jews are another front.
Mossad is apparently a branch of british and american intelligence.
There is no way, the towers could have been taken down by even two planes ramming into it.
And there is no easy way to beat US air surveillance security and carry out such a high level attack on a building containing too level US government financial documents… which if missing would spell trouble for some quarters of US financial players.
It was a high level inhouse sabotage by the elites. And they remain the anglo saxon descendants of british, french, german, italian and dutch colonial masters of the americas.
The ongoing "islamic terrorist" scare campaign script in afgahnistan, syria, and yemen has proved beyond any reasonable doubt that these demented folks recruit, train and orchestrate all these so called "islamic" terrorist groups. From isis to alqaeda… its a joint CIA/MI5 script with accomplices ofcourse from their other european counter parts.
Israel remains a colony of great britain… as she was created for the purpose of maintaining british hegemony in the middle east.
All the ongoing has nothing to do with jews or the bible… as some would think.
Or even bad islamic or arab leaders.
The arabs appear to have been sold out by their leaders… who are all british plants anyway.
Their leaders like ours here in africa are still too much in awe of the white man to challenge him.
Dont be fooled… its all a game of players ,actors, and global accomplices.
Its a game of empire.

Reason why i refuse to contribute to most threads.
Kids everywhere.
Some even argue over whose village saw the white man first
Others take it a notch higher and claim higher slave output to the americas
Others prefer to claim political victories off politicians who have been looting their public treasuries for years with nothing to show for it.
Fact is… africans have a lot of growing up to do.
Na our so called "university education" dey deceive us.
Yorubas, Igbos, Hausas, Fulanis, Edos, Nupes, Efiks.. Over 250 ethnic groups… were conquered, subjugated, colonized, dominated, ruled by a mere handful of white men.
They even "granted" us independence.
Shameful.
And all the descendants of colonized and brainwashed people can do all day is mouth off.
No plan to move ahead and improve the semblance of modern life bequethed them by their white masters.
No strategy, no short term or long term agenda.
Just a pack of pathetic niqqas.
@OP leave them to argue….they truly do not know better.

omonnakoda:

Why are we so sure that other Obas are indeed Yoruba.? Once again what does Yoruba mean . People who cling on to that concept have no understanding or a distorted understanding of history . To create empire you gain somethings and you lose others. Genetically I suspect that many people who we know as Yoruba are indeed Tapa or Hausa slave descendants who dissolved into the Oyo empire. The Oyos themselves are distinct from Ekiti and Ijebu. Finally Oduduwa came into Yorubaland from outside established a dynasty and rewrote history. The story of Oduduwa is no different from Alimi if we analyse it properly. Oduduwa was not a indigene.But then who did Oduduwa marry and his children after him. The queen of England is of German ancestry German . This is how kings come about ,they have to lay some claim of superiority of difference

Dude you are making me get interested in discussing Yoruba history on this forum.
Been looking for dispassionate folks to discuss the aspects of Yoruba history everyone seems to be avoiding.
Seems the only trending topic driving traffic to NL is Igbo themed tribal comedy...
When there are deeper and more interesting histories and events that could turn this site into a West African encyclopedia of sorts.
About Oduduwa and Oyo...
Funny how die hard pan-Yorubas struggle with trying to give meaning to the name "Oduduwa",
from "odu to da iwa" to other twisted manipulations at linking the name to the ancient Yoruba name for womb.
The facts appear to point to what you alluded...besides the fact that Ife and Oyo nobles have cleverly overlooked
the non-indigene status of Oduduwa, a lot of difficult questions have been avoided by not approaching that topic.
Like where Oduduwa really came from and the Idu/Bini connection.
Imagine the uninformed Oyos being rudely awakened to the fact that Oranmiyan's dynasty is not actually indigenous...
Or the Ifes and cousins being reminded who Obatala,Sopanna, and other deified personalities were when Oduduwa
arrived at Ife.
And ofcourse there remains the little history of the Ooni welcoming the visitor from Bini to Ife and showing him
the progress made with worship of the deities his ancestor "left behind".
Or the relationship between Ados in Ekiti, Akures in Ondo, Eko, Agidingbi,Oshodin...with the Bini empire.
I think it would make for a great discuss if the goal is to dispassionately look at history and the facts on ground.
Keep it coming!

9jacrip:


Obatala the human ruler is different from Obatala the spirit being in Yoruba belief system. Yoruba history carries with it two aspects, the actual events surrounding the character backed up in verifiable proofs in our surroundings and the mystery intended to show the supernatural powers, ranking, strength etc of a deity.

Both sides for every character are present in Ifa but most people ignore the details of real life occurences because the mythical/spiritual is given by Ifa and used by the Babalawo to explain and solve problems.

Sir/Ma, do endeavour to mention your sources sir, this way we'd know if it is correct or worths digging into further. As for the white dots, when Obatala and Oduduwa face off was at its peak, the powerful people in Ife back then (now deities except Orunmila) all chose sides with Sopanna/Obaluaye going with Obatala. The ifin, from my understanding is to commemorate Sopanna/Obaluaye allegiance - the sane way Oluorogbo, Orisakire, Ijugbe play important roles on one of the days of the festival.

Obatala was not androgynous. He was male and had a wife, Yeemo, whose relics also exist. There were/are Aje (Mojuba o!), Yeemo was one and regarded as one of the firsts. Obatala, being very powerful also initiated into the Aje. And yes, Obatala is known to posses and keep the ase of Olodumare.

Symbolisms in Ifa are solely for divination purposes in order to be able to understand and solve a situation since everything that is happening now has happened before but resolved - the symbolism connects the dots to help find a solution.

Symbolisms in Orisa festivals are encoded messages denoting past historical events. There is not more spiritualism to them, they are only spots waiting to be explored for historical details.

Thanks for the response!
And its a Sir not Ma

As per sources,I study history for enlightenment and ask question from knowledgeable folks.
You know initiates with their ogberi and awo class divides.
Others are from published texts like the ones I'll cite below.

Our Mothers, Our Powers, Our Texts: Manifestations of Àjé in Africana Literature
http://www.amazon.com/Our-Mothers-Powers-Texts-Manifestations/dp/0253217571/

Like Èsù, Obàtálá partakes of both genders and has Àje but has been subjected to patrification and Christianization.
The Deity’s white cloth has led to minimizing
comparisons with the Christian God, and her-his Àje and “equally
expressive femininity,” to borrow Ogundipe’s phrase, is often overlooked.
However, the conscientious ones remind those seeking false
equivalents of Obàtálá’s multitudinousness. In Pepe Carril’s drama Shango de Ima, Obàtálá’s self-description is faithful to spiritual reality
and contains copious references to Àje:

I was always sanctified and old. I was never able to be a child, to live
the life of an ordinary woman. . . . But I have sixteen roads. I have humility.
I am loving, vengeful, voluptuous, and simple. I am father,
mother, king and queen. I am wise and serene. I am the mistress of destiny.
And I am also nothing. . . . this white hair of mine reflects all mysteries.
I have the power of all minds, and I bring retribution to those whose minds
are evil.


As lyrical and accurate as Carril’s description i s, an ancient oríkì of Obàtálá shared by C. L. Adeoye is more forthright and of even greater
depth:

Olufon Adé,
King fully adorned with white beads
Those who label you àje are not liars
It is the skull of another human being that you use to drink water
For osùn (camwood) to rub your body, you use the blood of humans
The water in the clay pot (oru) given to you
Is placed on somebody else’s head.



As the Òrìsà of the white cloth, Obàtálá is a reflection of everything and reflects everything,
including the rich profundity of Àje. Obàtálá functions like the prism, which bends, separates, and reveals the spectrum of possibilities
lodged in the beam of “white” light.

Care to discuss?

Another you might find interesting...is Iyami Osoronga: Divine Femininity
http://www.amazon.com/Iyami-Osoronga-Divine-Femininity-Feminniity/dp/1479791156/

There was a lot of interesting stuff mentioned in these texts and others.
The implications are vast and far reaching...when you add to the mix recent scientific discoveries in the fields of genetics and endocrinology.
I have read it elsewhere that the "odu" pot given to initiated awos signifies the womb/va.gina...and symbolically represents the feminine estrogen
generated in the female body...which manifests as the "ase". Hence it is forbidden for women to look inside...as the ewoo implies any contravening female would start leaking oestrogen amongst other mishaps.

I think Africans probed deeper into the mysteries of nature far more than we realize.
The difficulty arises when its all wrapped in secrecy and not used for the benefit and good of all.
Imagine if the Europeans and Asians had kept electricity, chemistry,physics, electronics, aviation...to their lodges and secret societies?
We need to revive our pride and take our place in history.
Even the Ooni could not depend on the highest level Osanyin priests whom he could summon at will to treat mere diabetes...
but had to be flown out to a London hospital.
I think its time for Africans to open up and contribute POSITIVE things to the world.
Don't you think so?

aviona:
Thread after thread, all you read is same display of unending frustration.
The question that actually bugs the mind is, what exactly do some of these psychos cum wannabe 'enlightened historians' stand to lose, simply because the Ika people clearly insist that (irrespective of whatever shared similarities), they are NOT and should NOT be referred to as Igbos?

To these maniacs lamenting here; have you in anyway lost claim to your own 'Igbo identity', or have you suddenly found it so difficult to breath through your nostrils, simply because some people choose to have a distinct identity? What exactly do you stand to lose?
See a post somewhere above, where one even keep lamenting how sad his/she is, and ended up presenting some silly Fulani-Hausa analogy. Unknown to you, you ignorantly and ironically end up making the Ika people even more popular than they hitherto were.
Unfortunately, it's their choice and not yours... So just keep the complex in check, 'cos your discomfort is so glaring and irritating to others.
Learn to live and let others live!

Loool.
Thanks for the response.
I just take exception to my post being termed silly...I dont think its silly IMO.
Cos the effects of this identity crisis was and still is real.
From your reply, I can say you are just like them...skipping the issues that have cost people their lives and making it look trivial.
You do not sit by and watch people denounce you publicly...your pride and name is at stake.
Fact is...due to the events that have transpired as a result of this confusion, the issue is not trivial.
Let me prove it to you.
But consider this too...and please be honest.

What if the Igbos from the Eastern Region or say Ojukwu being the SE Region governor in the aftermath of January 1966 had issued the following statement:
"We wish to make this known to the whole and Nigerians, the peoples bearing Igbo-sounding names
and speaking Igbo dialects in the Mid-Western Region are actually Bini and Igalla people.
If you thought they are Igbo, they are not and are actually from a city called Bini, their fathers migrated
down and somehow forgot their Bini tongue and just found it expedient to adopt Igbo language,
Igbo names, Igbo traditions over their native Bini ones.
So we wish to clarify that it was these Bini people called Ikas who killed Ahmadu Bello,Akintola, Balewa,
Ademulegun,Shodeinde, Largema,Okotie-Eboh and others.
Eastern Region Igbos do not recognize these impostors and Nigerians should be wary of them too."

Now how about that? Just like the way Oliseh and the rest are publicly denouncing...aint it okay too?
Have you ever wondered why during the civil war campaign, after Asaba indigenes came out singing "One Nigeria"
to welcome the Federal soldiers...they were invited to the square, men and boys were separated from women.
And then on the orders of Murtala and Ibrahim Taiwo...over 700 of these men and boys were gunned down in one fell swoop.
No where in the whole history of the civil war was this repeated, even when the federal troops were taking SE Igbo towns
one after the other.
The Northern officers knew that the bulk of the officers who killed in cold blood the leaders of other regions were Ikas.
Even Ifeajuna from Onicha being Zik's cousin was Anioma...did you know that?
The Eastern Region could have saved themselves enormous loss in lives if they had simply taken the route Oliseh and his
kinsfolk are taking now...clarify where you belong. Don't you think so?

Or lets carry it to a logical conclusion, cos I'm surprised the Igbos in their typical crude manner have not started calling
the bluffs of these shameless people.
What if where ever the Ikas and Aniomas stand up in a public setting to introduce themselves and announce their names,
(and ofcourse it will be some hard core Igbo name)...an Igbo speaker rises up and tells the audience...
"don't mind that man bearing Igbo names, he's actually a Bini man bearing an Igbo name.Don't confuse them for Igbos. I do not know why they are not comfortable with their Bini culture and tradition.Please tell them to stop the attachment to anything Igbo".

Imagine if the next Nigerian at the Euston Ted talk being an Igbo man had done that.
Swell punch..don't ya think?

@9jacrip, excellent thread.
I have some questions too.
I have read on the history of Ife, Obatala the ruler and Obatala the deity, and Oduduwa.
The fascinating aspects was the revelation from a source I cannot mention here about the significance of the white
painted dots on the celebrants bodies.
The summary was that that the white dots signify in literal terms the first secret of physical life as we know it.
Being naturally inquisitive I probed further, but did not get much details, except a cryptic statement about
"light" and "matter" and how everything we see is just vibrating colors and stuff.
Will it be out of place for you to share some knowledge...as I'm always intrigued by the coded symbolisms inherent in
these ceremonies.

Next is the difference between Obatala the human king and Obatala the deity.
Informed folks or should I say inner traditions point out that the deity was/is actually androgynous and is a proper "Aje" with mystical ase.
I have a little insight into the concepts of Yoruba divine feminity and the implications as per orisha worship.
But I have not been able to make complete sense of the symbolisms and deeper meanings.
Care to share some insights?
Would be obliged. Thanks.

Goodboiyy:


40% of Ika sees themselves distinct from Igbo, like I earlier stated, Asaba axis sees themselves as pure Igbo, I know what am saying, am from Delta, some from unbiaruku will fight u if u tag them Igbo.

I think they need Enlightenment, to me they re Igbo,

On point bro!
Its just sad, sad, sad,sad, sad...
A question no one asked him, a point that was not just needless but not even contested in that international gathering,
only points to one thing...a deep inferiority complex.
I do not blame Sunday Oliseh, but rather I blame the fathers, grandfathers and elders in Anioma who have played politics
with the identity of their children.
That Sunday Oliseh's father chose to give him a core Igbo name like Ogochukwu and then turn around and tell him they are not Igbos is just sad, sad, sad...clear signs of self hatred, and unresolved inferiority complex.
What happened to Bini names and Igalla names? Why Igbo names? Pathetic really.
History will tell the story...and try as you may...the truth will always out...one way or the other.

In this issue, the key points Ikas conveniently forget is:
1) Their neighbours- the Binis, Urhobos, Ijaws,Igallas, Itshekiris...know exactly who they are. Historical antecedents and shared histories
cannot be changed for any one.
2) The Igbos know too who the Aniomas and Ikas are.

Just like it happened in 1967 and before then when the 1966 coup planned by mainly Anioma officers was termed an Igbo coup...
Just like it happened when the pogroms started in Kano, Kaduna and other northern cities...
Just like it happened after the war, when shame was thrown to the wind and a person bearing names like Emeka and Nwachukwu would
tell fantastic tales of how his forefathers came from Bini...all to get an appointment...
Just like it has been happening...when push comes to shove...Sunday Ogochukwu Oliseh, whose brother's name is Azubuike Olise, whose family
all bear names that only Igbo speaking people bear, and speak a language that all experts agree is an Igbo dialect...
they will be reminded of who they were before the British came...
they will be reminded of who they were when the British ruled the land...
they will be reminded of who they were when Nigerian gained independence...
they will be reminded of who they were all through the crude oil era...
they will be reminded that only Igbo people bear names like Ogochukwu, Oliseh, Azubuike...
that such names are not borne by Bini, Igalla,Itshekiri, Urhobo,Ijaw, Ogoni,Ogojo folks...
that a man who denies his history and heritage for political advantage deserves whatever derision he has attracted...


And for the posters encouraging him in his show of shame, it does not really matter what tag or name a group of people chose to identify with.
I agree, its a free world after all.
What matters is HISTORY...for the present and posterity. It is history that will be your reference when contesting that land case in your village.
Else, a complete stranger who has lived in your community for decades can openly contest your ancestral land. After all, his grandfather knew your grandfather, his father and your father were playmates and so on. But and that's a big but...they were never a part of the community in the actual sense of it. History will remind them of the exact date of their migration, the exact name of the place they came from, and the exact name of who gave the migrants the land to build their house on. It is all about history.

The message Oliseh passed across when carried to its logical conclusion can only lead to confusion and chaos.
Imagine...just imagine for instance, if the Fulani royal families ruling all the Hausa Emirates...wake up one morning and deny being Fulanis.
What will happen to the Fulani invasions of Zaria, Gwandu, Katsina, Kano, Adamawa, Kebbi and other Hausa city states?
What will happen to the story of the former pure Hausa royal families displaced and usurped by the Fulani invaders?
Most people down south do not even know that Lamido Sanusi the new emir of Kano is not Hausa but a scion of the Fulani usurpers who
took over the ancient Kano royalty.
True the Fulani rulers might have acculturated and now speak Hausa instead of Fula, but what will happen to the history of how they came
to be the rulers of the Hausa city states...if they are start denying their Fulani ancestry?
Your guess is a good as mine. History...shared history will only be the reference.
Cos as I have mentioned in another thread, a shipload of shared history will have to be rewritten to accommodate that idea.
"Chukwu" will have to meaning something else apart from the Igbo supreme creator, "Azubuike" will take on a different meaning once you cross the Niger...I could go on.

I think the Ikas should tell the world how they came to bear Igbo names, have Igbo traditions and speak an Igbo dialect.
Or maybe they just need the pity and help of Nigerians to resolve their identity crises...cos after listening to Oliseh in the TEDX video,
its clear the Ikas do not even know they have an identity crisis.

Cos if this is not resolved, tomorrow another confused fellow might come up with another interpretation of words like Chukwu, Afor, Orie, Nkwo
and other Igbo cultural land marks.
Not only would they leave other Nigerians confused, but Igbos would be doomed to repeats of what played out in 1967...where the entire Eastern Region paid for the sins of Ika/Anioma officers from the Mid-Western Region...all because of identity crisis.

I just hope the SE Igbos will be wiser this time to disassociate themselves from such people and let them face the music on their own.

dcngr:


It's quite interesting how the igbos fight a lot to find kinsmen from across the globe...how well they do in maintaining such kinship is a talk for another day.

The Ikas are a nation of mixed origins. You can hardly tie them to a single ethinicity but the largest could very well be the Igbos because of the Ute and Owa populations, however, being colonial states of the Bini Empire for so many years has left the royalty more of the Bini blood than Ibo. Agbor before the igbo settlements began to grow had already become an established kingdom with known dynasties dating farther than the Obas. The Dein of Agbor is of the Ogiso's royal blood - the worshiped kings of Idu (Bini in Ika language) before the ascent of the Obas.

The Ika people has nationalities from Nri, Ndi-oru (Ukwani), Aniocha, Idu, Ishan and Yoruba.

Agha Idu (Ika word for the great Bini Civil war that preceded the fall of the great empire) explains in better details the constitution of the area known today as Delta North (or Ndi Anioma). The great pursuit against the Eze Nri (though folklore's description of this great siege would make him more of an Nri High Priest in the service of the Oba than a King) scattered the Bini princes across the area with the highest ranking of them settling in Onitsha and Okpanam (I know most Igbos would argue strongly against the Obi of Onitsha being of Bini heritage, but that's a talk for another day, a quick clarification would be his possession of an Oben le Ogwugwu - the Oba's traditional staff office presented to his "delegated" rulers. The Onitsha ruler also goes with the title Obi and dresses in same manner as those of kings enthroned by the empire). Agha Idu also throws open the fact that these satellite states existed before the arrival of the princes and thus their rulership of the people can only best be described as a "colonization". From Alifekede to Uzo-igbon (later renamed Ahaba (english - Asaba)) and just across Omihin (River Niger) reigned the Oba through the Obis until the fall of the great empire, whence most of these satellite colonies became independent - though till Oba Akenzua's reign most have remained distantly loyal to the Bini throne in matters of traditional rites.


Call them Binis, call them Igbos, the Ikas has long evolved from being one of the Bini strongest colony to become a great nation and people that has flourished independent of their migrant origins to develop a truly strong economy, language, culture and a rare nation of many kingdoms: Ute, Owa, Agbor, Umunede, Mbiri, Igbanke, Akumazi, Igbodo, Otolokpo and Obior

I still find out again and again that most Ika folks are NOT EVEN AWARE that the names they bear, the language they speak and the traditions they practice is Igbo through and through. They seem GENUINELY IGNORANT of what the Igbo language and traditions is.
From the spoken dialects, four market days, deities and religion, traditions to things as simple as names!
Let me prove it to you.

dcngr:

Agha Idu (Ika word for the great Bini Civil war that preceded the fall of the great empire) explains in better details the constitution of the area known today as Delta North (or Ndi Anioma).

As an Igbo speaker, I know "agha" is an Igbo word and "Agha Idu" is just the way the phrase "Bini war" would be spoken in any Igbo dialect.
You are not even aware that what you call an Ika word is actually a 100% Igbo word.
Alifekede...Ala/Ani Ifekede
Ndi Anioma...not even ovwie" Anioma as it should have been if your claims to Bini origin are correct.
Anioma...not even "agbon" something..as it should have been if your claims to Bini origin are correct.
I could go on...names of peoples, places, towns, villages all across Ika that have no meaning in Bini...but almost exclusively are Igbo names.
How and why? Care to answer?

dcngr:

The great pursuit against the Eze Nri (though folklore's description of this great siege would make him more of an Nri High Priest in the service of the Oba than a King) scattered the Bini princes across the area with the highest ranking of them settling in Onitsha and Okpanam (I know most Igbos would argue strongly against the Obi of Onitsha being of Bini heritage, but that's a talk for another day, a quick clarification would be his possession of an Oben le Ogwugwu - the Oba's traditional staff office presented to his "delegated" rulers. The Onitsha ruler also goes with the title Obi and dresses in same manner as those of kings enthroned by the empire).

What has always been known is that the Eze Chima story is the story of an Igbo man who lived in Bini and worked as either a medicine man or priest. And he probably came from Nri, as the traditions of the towns attributed to him and his descendants appear to suggest.
How he transformed into a Bini prince and his name changed from Eze Chima to Ikhime...is just as you have noted a talk for another day.
On the allusion to "Bini princes" founding Onitsha...don't you think you are repeating the same old fallacious testimony all over again?
Anioma folks across the Niger include Onitsha, Oguta and others. From time immemorial...till today they have never spoken Bini or had any memorable Bini tradition distinct from their surrounding Igbo communities...save for the kingship structure.
If you must insist that what is obviously a borrowed Bini tradition of "iyases","iyaseres" and the rest...make them Binis, them also permit me
to bring in the history of how Nri stood in relation to ancient Bini. Are you aware of the history of Idu monarchs being crowned by Nri?
Or of the interaction between Idu and Nri?
You see...if I were a Bini man...I would caution you Ikas to quit making Bini appear to be so weak and easily dominated by a supposedly "inferior culture". The greatness of Bini as an empire was in its dominant culture, political and social structures, monarchy and military.
The Bini empire never gave in to any neighbouring people. The most that happened was acculturation, ditto the Ekitis of Ado Ekiti, Ondos, Ekos of Lagos etc.
But here you are spinning fantastic tales of non existent "Bini princes" whose existence have never been attested to nor verified by any known Bini
historian.
That a dominant Bini culture would give way to a non-expansionist,non-militaristic, decentralized, republic, agrarian, and less socially developed Igbo culture is just fantastic! Dont you think so?

The question you and all Igbo denying Ikas never address is...these Igbo-dialect speaking peoples from Ika/Anioma...who are they?
Since its clear that they had dealings with the Bini empire, being just a stone throw to Bini city...and DESPITE the closeness, the obvious borrowed socio-cultural practices, borrowed names and all...RETAINED THEIR IGBO NAMES AND DIALECT.
What's up with that?

dcngr:

See my earlier response for a clearer understanding of the Ika origins. About Ibo been the lingua franca, it is evident to every Ika born who grew up in Ika land in the before the 80's that Ika language had dua words for most items such as Okpan and Afere for plate, Isere and Ejshi/ Ezi for frontage, etc.

Nice response!
Still...may I venture to point out how you swerved clear of the real issues to be discussed?
You see...a noticeable trait among Africans is the glorification of the absurd.
Add to that a tenacious hold on unreality...things that hold no meaning save to them that hold on to it.
I find out these two traits are very common among Aniomas/Ikas...no insult intended.
I am writing based on the assumption that you grew up in Nigeria and are quite familiar with "tribalism" and other ethnocentric realities
of Nigeria as it is.

First off, I want to congratulate you on the recognition that the term "Igbo" is a collective word for a people who share the "traditions", "cultures", "beliefs" AND language(no matter how diverse) called Igbo. Informed Nigerians can differentiate by ear the difference between a statement made in Yoruba, Annang or say Igalla. You will agree with me that languages also have clusters and these are easily distinguished from each other.
So there are not supposed to be ANY surprises or denials when an Igbo speaker hears some from say Owa or Agbor speak...or is there?
What I find fascinating about the Ikas/Aniomas is the stiff insistence that what they speak as a language has no link or relationship with Igbo.
Lets look at the facts on the ground.

dcngr:

Of a truth, there existed communities with strong Igbo languages prior to the arrival of the missionaries, these communities such as Ute and Owa would boast of more modern ibo settlers than the predominantly Bini communities like Agbor. However, the strongest impact of the igbo language on the Ika language came from the highly successful missionary work in the area propagated mainly by Catechists and Reverend Fathers of Igbo origin. The converts were taught to read and write the igbo language as both the Catholic and Anglican churches were conducted in the Igbo language.

For your information, the Igbos of the hinterland were envangelized by the Igbo speaking peoples closer to the shores. Recorded history attests to the fact that the Opobos and the Onitshas dialect was used by the early missionaries in preaching to all the Igbo communities they encountered. Most of the time, the other communities had a hard time understanding these strange dialects, as they were not familiar with them.
So what do you say to a man from say Owerri having to read a bible not written in his dialect, using words and phrases entirely foreign to his spoken dialect? Preached to by missionaries from communities he probably never heard of? Would you call that Igbo to Igbo evangelism or what?
The key point there is that there was a MUTUAL UNDERSTANDING of the base language...they did not have to learn what the words "Chukwu" and the rest meant. They just had to adjust to the new dialect, and that has been a standard in Christian missionary efforts wordwide.
So your point up there does not really follow, because the early and later missionaries must have identified and grouped whatever language was spoken in Ika among the Igboid groups...for them to even consider using the "Igbo" language (never mind which dialect) for evangelism.
The question is why Igbo? Why not Edo or Afenmai? You know since according to you guys...Ikas are proud Bini colonies and are of "royal Ogiso blood"?
Sit back for a minute and think about the implications of what you wrote. Are you implying that the missionaries back then were so mischievous and partisan...that they completely overlooked the fact that Ikas were speaking their Bini language(or offshoot of their Bini language)...that they had to choose a FOREIGN IGBO language to evangelise to Ikas? Missionaries looking for converts missing the ONE THING that they cannot afford to get wrong while evangelizing to new communities...the language?

dcngr:

The issue of Ikas bearing Ibo names has always been the strongest contention for Ibos to insist Ikas are actually Ibos, but that is quite insufficient as most Nigerians of today bear english, scottish, greek and hebrew names without arguably being hebrews. But their choice of name as in the case of the Ika has largely being influenced by religion, social relationships and language dynamism.

I watched with pity, Chinyere of Project Fame (I think that was season 6) as she battled to explain to Uncle Ben at emotions-edge how she's not ibo and how difficult it was for her to understand the meanings of the words in the ibo song she was meant to perform and ultimately interpret. It would only take an Ika man to understand her perils, Uncle Ben was aghast in unbelief! Truth is most Ikas make good effort to learn, understand and speak the ibo language because, socioculturally speaking, Ibo is the best cultural sublimation for the people on the national scale, but that must not be taken as the clause to declare their inability to define nor tell their own origin. They know who they are...quit defining them!

Lol...same old worn out story. You see I have Bini friends too and I can not remember Bobby, Osahon and others having family members bearing names like Chinyere, Nwachukwu, Emefiele, Amaka! The whole world knows those are EXCLUSIVELY names borne by Igbos.
Why would a people who supposedly have zero links and relations to Igbos...bear Igbo names?
Who taught them what the names mean in the first place?
Have you forgotten that African names ALL have meanings and are given based on the beliefs and aspirations of the parents?
That a people from a "Bini colony" and "of royal Ogiso blood"(according to you)....would forget about names like Osagie,Irinmwiagbon,Ikponwosa etc,and bear plain old Igbo names...is just plain fantastic! Don't you think so?
For your information, lots of kids from the SE who grew up outside Igbo communities do not SPEAK,READ or WRITE Igbo.
Same goes for a lot of Edo, Igalla, Efik and Urhobos kids I knew who grew up in Lagos and other cities.
Take a random sampling of Igbo kids in say Lagos or Jos...and ask them for the meaning of most popular Igbo songs.
Let me know if they are able to give you the meaning.
The point you deliberately or unknowing disregarded is...what language is the name Chinyere Akueh?
Does the name "Chinyere Akueh" have any meaning in Bini, Igalla, Yoruba, Itshekiri or Urhobo?
Or maybe...just maybe...Chinyere Akueh is an Igbo name?
Your watching Chinyere in pity is the same way lots of Igbos and non-Igbos watch the sad play of inferiority complex displayed by folks from Ika
when they start their "Igbo denials" comedy. You clearly observed yourself that Uncle Ben was aghast in unbelief!
I was aghast too in unbelief when I first heard my friends from Agbor speak their language and I thought they were from Owerri!
You avoided the final question...why were they mistaken for Igbos?
That a person bearing a hard core Igbo name, speaking an obviously Igbo dialect...would go to such lengths to disassociate both his name, language and origin from the ONLY PEOPLE IN THE WORLD who bear such names and speak such a language!
Not just that...but the promotion of an entirely unprovable historical fallacy, that a people who come from a Bini city that is just a stone throw to them...speak an Igbo dialect and bear Igbo names?
Why did her supposedly Bini parents not give her proper Bini names like Esomo, Ifueko,Iziegbe and Adesuwa?
Care to answer?

dcngr:

No matter how fiercely you try to cure a people of YOUR OWN perceived misconception of whom they are, you cannot change that because deep down in their history they know very well who their mother is.

Sorry bro, I have no misconceptions...I am only reporting what I and every other person out there can see.
What if I told you I'm a Nupe man who grew up in the SE and Lagos? Would that make any difference in my arguments?
You see, a man with oil stains on his shirt can lie all he wants...but every one around him who knows an oil stain can easily point out to him that what he has on his shirt is an oil stain.
Why are you folks so pissed when your spoken language, names and traditions is identified with Igbo?
Are you implying that people are so ignorant they cannot tell the difference between people from a "Bini colony" and "of royal Ogiso blood"...from
people from Igbo hinterlands who have no kingship and are generally uncultured, greedy and uncivilized?
That their ears are deceiving them when they hear you Ikas speak your Bini language?
Or that Nigerians do not know the difference between the "core Igbo" Chinyere and the "Ika" Chinyere?
Never mind that the Ikas say they have "ehi" and not "chi", never mind that the written record of Ika elders and chiefs by the colonial missionaries and traders exist telling their histories.
The only stake I have in this story....is HISTORICAL ACCURACY. I am a student of history...and I know the claims and counter claims by the Ikas will haunt them in the coming years. I do not mean that in a derogatory sense...just pointing out the dividends of identity crises left unresolved.
Ever wondered what the Binis actually think the Ikas and their claims to Bini origins?

dcngr:

As for me, haven traveled the length and breadth of the Igbo nation and seeing haven known that the ibos themselves bear no similar origin, some in as far away Ebem, Ohafia claim Bini origin whereas a majority of them speak the dual languages of Efik/Ibiobio and the Ibo language, it is evident to me that the Ibo nation is not one borne out of the ideology of a common origin but a people of common socio-economic experience dwelling in the area defined as the East, Southern of Nigeria with a near common language that can be understood by almost 85% of the people dwelling in the region. As thus, I would, irrespective of the reservations of the very Ika, Anocha, Oshimili and Ndukwa people regard them as Ibos...this not because I know better who they are by origin than they know but because of my known ideology of what is called Ibo.

I put it to you the the communities appear to be more diverse than you probably know.
What you also forgot to mention...is the HUGE AMOUNT of COMMON things that the communities you cited share.
And in case you did not notice the COMMON things are shared by atleast 80% of those communities.
But still...why is that when the Igbos from the SE move out across the Niger and meet people SHARING COMMON NAMES, TRADITIONS, BELIEFS, AND LANGUAGE with them...they meet with stiff "reservations" and "denials"?
Have you ever heard about the Igbos mistaking Edos in Bini city or the Ilajes in Ondo for Igbos?
Why the Aniomas and Ikas?

Shymm3x:


Lmao @ this obtuse and vacuous emotional prepubescent kid with mood swings.

Who wants to engage an illiterate in anything? And did I even post on the thread before you started spamming my handle everywhere, wanking on the few times I gave you nightmares and showed how empty ya useless epistles are? I might be ya nemesis, but keep my dyck outta ya mouth, especially when I'm not on the thread.

If you had any iota of brain cells - you'd know that the guy you were engaging used to go by "cheddarking", "JackBauersballs" and a next handle. But oh no, like the resident primeval idiot most of you're on this forum - you had to include me. Effing bonobo. Like WTF?

Anyway, I don't want to engage you on any subject-matter cos you're too dumb/emotional for anything logical and ya epistles are always all over the place - saying a lot without saying anything. Just keep my name outta ya mouth whenever you're having ya nightmares.

Stop spamming my darn handle everywhere, you despicable village illiterate.

Appalling ignorance takes refuge in petty, crass insults.
Your apparent ignorance is clearly not obvious to you...but then just a kiddo right?
Know your type...your level of mastery of English vocabulary is limited to stringing together expletives and insults.
Still does not make you sound tough or intelligent...doesnt even give a thug cred.
Smh...Bet you take pride in some East London hood upbringing.
Kiddo learn to be civil to ya betters ok?

GooseBaba:


Abeg, leave that ignoramus chimpanzee shouting mate, mate like this is a bristish gathering. He does not know how stupid he sounds. That's why all he had was to hide behind "historical facts" that did not support his foolish statement.

Abeg, leave the "mate"....

Lol. Funny enough lots of those guys spewing British slangs might never have left the shores before.
Bunch of kids who can't even articulate what a constitution is discussing politics and history.
Its these type that will get themselves into high political office and sell off the country to the IMF and other western looters.
They don't even care to read or learn anymore...worse thing is they think its "cool".

Shymm3x:


Lmao @ this puerile turd. You want to talk about civility, yet you spammed my handle on a thread that has absolutely nothing to do with me, with infantile rants about being emotional and all over the place. Are you sure you haven't been skipping ya meds? Then again it is typical with folks from ya part of naij - throw stones and hide ya hands, and everything has to be about emotional impulses rather than logical reasoning.

Aren't you the same plonker that asserted that Awolowo looks more culpable in the 1966 coup than a Zik who miraculously left the country two days before the coup? And the same clown who posted a textbook worth of epistle on the USA vs Russia thread, saying a lot without saying anything? If you are not a stark illiterate, then I don't know what you are. Or maybe a blinkered git is more applicable, no?

Anyway, use ya brain cells next time and check people's post history before spamming my handle everywhere. I'm not responsible for anyone trying to post like me or everyone that lives in the UK who's using British words.

Effing stark illiterate lol.

Smh.
Your lack of depth,comprehension skills and general ignorance about history indicates its safe to ignore you kiddo.
When I get interested in doing a video games yarn...I might engage you better.
So...#Ignored.

Shymm3x:


Stark illiterate, what has the nonsense on this thread got to do with me, like I give two fvcks about a Jaja of neverland?

And why must every darn person be me?

Fvck off my mentions, and keep my dyck outta ya mouth.

actually talking smack doesn't make you appear tough....

So its confirmed then...
@illiterate seriously??...here I was thinking I was a bit well read
Kiddo, learn to be civil to ya betters ok?

Nihilist:


During my discussions with your friends, I was the only one who bothered to post historical accounts, and reference articles by learned academics.

Dont credit yaself with posting references that only busted ya points.
Or rather dont praise yaself for posting historical accounts that hold no meaning to the discussion.
You quoted Jaja's 'trading' practices completely out of context...and attempted to cook up a mishmash of
unrelated facts to justify your argument...that a man nay a king who actually stood up to the greedy British is simply great
and not a hero.
Because according to you...he was a 'cut throat' bad business man...who should have allowed other profit
seeking business men to erode the margins on his commodities...
Cos apparently he did not bend over and hand over the control of his trading routes to the kind British...
He also did not allow hinterland traders direct access to the markets he controlled...
He also did not allow the wise British traders set the prices instead of him Jaja...
Even more importantly he completely monopolized the trade in a kingdom he founded and ruled...instead of
allowing other traders compete openly with him, crash his commodity prices, or sell at prices they choose to whomever...
The sheer naiveté of ya reasoning apparently eludes you...

Nihilist:

Mate go and treat your bipolar disorder.

I'm done.

Smh...insults wont win you any points in any discussion kiddo.
Show some civility atleast...
You could actually have proved you are the superior man by not resorting to insults.
But what do you know? Just a kiddo right?

Nihilist:


Don't know you. Don't care.

If you have something to say about Jaja, then the stage is yours.

If you have specific points to make, then feel free.

But if you say my opinion is naive and childish without having the temerity to articulate a counter argument, then I don't have time to engage in such 'online banter'

And I definitely don't have the time to massage your overly fertile imagination. If you must see the ghosts of other posters, negro go see them in someone else's post.

Come correct or fvck off. It really is that simple.

Well...the counter argument has been well articulated by Phut and the rest...so nothing for me to add really.
If you care to learn...go through their replies to your numerous off mark points...you might just get the drift.
But for the records here's my take...Jaja was one unique African monarch who stood up to the shenanigans of the British invaders.
He caught up quick on the need to modernize the locals and was quite visionary in his policies.
Trade back then was far different from what we have now...guess you would not know how the British operated
among the lands they invaded/colonized.
Jaja protected his interests...and those of his kingdom...against far superior British business men masquerading as agents of
the British crown. He finally paid the ultimate prize...rather than risk Opobo being razed.
That a lot of posters agree makes him a hero.
Ofcourse you are free to disagree...but do so intelligently.

You sound really angry at something tho
Hope you are not one of those guys who go provoking a fight and then complain bitterly when they get bloodied up.
Keep ya insults to yaself kiddo...and address me civilly if you must.