₦airaland Forum

VictorN:
What really makes South Africa the real giant? How much does the blacks in South Africa own in respect of their economy compare to Nigeria? And what is the state of their security apparatus? How many peace mission have they broker in Africa or world war contribution? Some of you folks are just ignorant of the fact that Nigeria even in this state has over the years played some significant role in the relative peace and stability of all this ungrateful fellow black nations including South Africa that they don't appreciate our contribution to their well being and existence shows how myopic these generation are. I wish someday you people will be grateful by reading your history. Eat The Real Giant for all i care!Is that your problem looking for a bragging right eh?

South Africa is not a giant of Africa. In SA whites own most of the formal economy and in Nigeria whites also own most of the small but rapidly growing formal economy. It starts and ends there. People will make examples of white owned businesses in SA to prove that the formal economy is white owned but the not so clever thing is that they use MTN as an example, a white but black managed company that also dominates Nigeria and most of Africa. So whites have control everywhere.

morpheus24:
Please don't confuse those rascal drug peddling Nigerian Salemen they brainwash you on SABC about, with real Nigerian enterpreneurs that are able to turn nothing into something pretty much any where they are. Thats an insult

PS. until South African blacks control more that 50% of their economic power will we cease to consider it a Quasi- African state. You guys are barely 17 year olds coming to grips with your place on the African continent and you want to have mouth to talk.

Didn't they just start teaching you guys about how many countries they are on the continent as opposed to that Jan van riebeek poo they been feeding your azzess for centuries.

PLEASE!!

20 years from now all big businesses in Nigeria will be foreign owned. By that time Nigeria will be a real giant of Africa but it would have been made a giant by white mans investment currently happening right now. Nigeria will have a largely formal economy controlled by whites and Indians. South African whites who have and are investing plenty in Nigeria will ride the success wave which will bolster the South African economy, so Nigerian growth will equal SA growth. All this growth is thanks to the white man

Horus:
Blacks  are a majority but economicaly and culturally a minority: They are subalterns in their own land of demographic dominance. Still you get Blacks  shopping in expensive malls in the suburbs and feeling superior to other Africans because of these "wonders", didn't anyone tell them they don't own anything, they are just guest in someone else's house. Didn't someone tell them those malls weren't built for them? These are the perks of being a slave in a White man's house.

1. Standard Bank (White).
2. FNB (White),
3. Sasol (White),
4. MTN (White)
5. Sanlam (White).

So While greed is universal, it seems Africans are not greedy or corrupt enough to get any major share in these companies. And despite being an African (Black) majority count how many times Black women have represented  in Miss Universe or Miss World. Count how many times Black faces are cast in TV adverts or magazines, unless it is HIV or alcohol related. Even today every positive attempt to enhance the lives of African people in SA is met with White resistance. There are some areas which have the illusion of fair play but really are just White economic clubs. Pick up a CD in any  airport featuring African music, again products made by Africans but not owned by Africans. A large format table book on "tribes" of the Southern Africa, written by whites. A film festival showcasing the 'best of African cinema', where not only are the majority of the films made by Europeans but the festival is also run by Europeans (like Durban International Film Festival). SA is the Giant of economic apartheid and white economic supremacy

I agree with. I could say the exact words but replace "SA" with "Nigeria" and it would still be applicable. Your thoughts apply to all of Africa. Even when you go to a Safari lodge in Kenya, it looks nice and African but it's built and owned by whites. Nigeria is the giant of potential consumption only good for making white man rich

goksonjay:
Do you know at all what amounts to your so called largest econowy? Do you want to compare Natural Resources deposit here to that of SA? Are U aware that SA is just one quarter of Nigerias? I suggest you do necessary research and get back to us with right information, No be your fault sha.

Whites have as much control over South Africa's resources as much as they do over Nigeria's resources.

AjanleKoko:
This post is kind of long, I didn't know where to start from. So I'll just use your numbers

2. Stanbic IBTC is by no means a major player in Nigeria's financial sector. Less than 200 retail branches is not even scratching the surface, when First Bank and UBA have over two thousand retail outlets.

You were happy to claim that the Nigerian financial services industry is 100% Nigerian owned which made me give you one example of a white owned bank operating in Nigeria. Stanbic IBTC, as with it's South African parent, is not big on retail banking but dominates corporate banking. That's what makes Standard Bank(white and Chinese owned) the biggest bank in SA and Africa. Oando PLC and Dangote Group bank with these white foreigners. There are other white banks which have a firm grip in Nigerian corporate finance, Standard Chartered Bank is one of them.

AjanleKoko:
3. You were so quick to mention Standard Bank, what about the 15 local Nigerian banks that were part of that syndication? Standard Bank was the lead arranger, but 15 Nigerian banks put up $1.7bn of the money. Oops

You are going to struggle to name those 15 banks because they were not involved, it's just your imagination typing away. But for you to say "lead arranger" kind shows that whites are in charge.

AjanleKoko:
4. Who's on the board of Main One? You can always check here for a list of Main One's board of Directors. Don't you have internet in Joburg?

You missing the point. Just because Nigerians are involved in a few undersea cables doesn't mean that whites are not dominant and those cables mean nothing without MTN. Click the link to see for yourself. Nigerians with help from whites in the background are responsible for the brown and yellow line, http://manypossibilities.net/african-undersea-cables/

AjanleKoko:
5. LOL at this one. Nandos is closing all their outlets in Nigeria. Four Outlets in Lagos have been shut already.Ajose Adeogun, Isaac John GRA, and Palms Shopping Mall. While Mr Biggs is rebranding and expanding. Nandos can own 2 million outlets in SA for all we care, we are talking about Nigeria here.

Fast food sector in Nigeria is miniature small and it will soon be made big by the whites who are entering now.

AjanleKoko:
6. Formal retail? Three or four Shoprite outlets in the whole of Nigeria, a country of 160 million people? No need to comment further here, I presume most readers aren't illiterate. How many people even shop in Shoprite, when Lagos metropolis alone has more than more than 40 public markets administered by the 16 local government councils?

Most things sold in those unhygienic public markets result in profit for whites and Asians. They are the ones who control production and you Nigerians just consume. Formal white owned economy, the one growing at 7%, supplies the Informal Nigerian owned economy. Formal retail is expanding and this expansion is managed by whites and Indians.

AjanleKoko:
7, 8 and 9, I am sure no serious person who knows anything about Nigeria would even join issues with you here. So Oando, MRS, Conoil, are mafia companies controlled by white upstream fat cats?

White control Nigerian oil. It starts and ends there.

AjanleKoko:
For the rest I will just provide you a short synopsis. When the British left Nigeria, they left very little in terms of infrastructure. Since they left, Nigeria built three hydro-electric power plants, eight gas plants, provided electricity to 774 local governments, built roads, connected East to West and North to South, airports in 26 states, etc. All of this information is available in the public domain.

I don't claim to know much about South Africa, as I have never lived there. But if you want to say something about Nigeria, you should try to ask people that know a bit about the country. Not just try to win an argument. Like i said, no beef, I don't even have the power for long arguments. But I have to say, you don't know anything about Nigeria. And you don't need to feel bad about what people said regarding SA. Just try to prove us wrong by providing valid examples from SA's economy, regarding Black-controlled investment. That's all.

Whites built Nigeria. They left for a few decades and now they are back to economically colonize Nigeria and this time to profiteer from Nigerian people not Nigerian resources coz they already have a strong grip on the main resource. As I said, Chinese are responsible for public construction projects and whites focus on private construction projects. I got that in the public domain.

White people dominate industries in South Africa, nobody denies that. Similarly white people have been starting and are dominating industries in Nigeria, many of you deny that.

morpheus24:
Stay focused. Your 'pap' eating azz is jumping the gun. The prediction was not about whites taking over power again. Go back and read will ya.

The reasoning was based on a comparison of similar social stratification systems based on race and similar political and economic emergence of an under class within such a society i, e the US in comparison to Southa Africa.  Therefore the arguement cannot be illogical because it is based on  valid deductive reasoning and therefore not impossible or unimaginable.

Damn some o ya'll are slow

Your hypothesis shows that you don't understand South Africa and it's social construct. You sound like those IMF economists who sit at a New York office and then tell the Nigerian government how they should manage the "oil" economy based on postulated ideas.

morpheus24:
Right right, a consequence of Apatheid struggles.

its a prediction you dimwit, it can't be incorrect if its assumed to happen at a future date. Ever heard of a Black repulican. Some people thought that was an impossible phenomena but it happened. Hmmmm?

Please get hold of Nelson Mandela's speeches on the interwebs and read them. He liked talking about "peace and unity"
Black South Africans used to kill each other in ethnic and political clashes during the late 80s and early 90s but Mandela's "peace and unity" mantra prevailed.

Please accept that black South Africans will never again allow themselves to be ruled by whites. You prediction is incorrect because your line of thinking is illogical therefore impossible. It's like me predicting that black Africans will land on the moon in the next decade - it's possible but unfathomable therefore incorrect.

morpheus24:
xcept what you hear on SABC 1

Just being part of nairaland has got me to know a lot about Nigeria and google helps too.

morpheus24:
^^^
@zolzlolz

I am kinda predicting a gradual shift from the ANC to the DA party for some of these "black up and coming middle class" elite being created as you have stated when the poor start attacking the very elite that is being created witin the ranks of the ANC and banging on the doors of the party these guys will have no choice than to shift to a party that might more protect their interests.

Just a prediction, I might add. whats that new black lady I keep seeing next o Helen Zille on T.V. Lindiwe Mazibuko, Pretty little chunky thing. I think she's Xhosa huh?

Black people will never vote for white leadership so your prediction is incorrect. The DA won Western Cape province because blacks are in the minority and some of them like zolzlolz have been corrupted by the white man who lives a good life in Cape Town and Stellenbosch. Whites will continue to have a grip on the economy and therefore they will always be seen as the enemy.

Lindiwe Mazibuko is South African. We are not so ethnocentric as you Nigerians

morpheus24:
Oh sorry maybe I should call them tenderpreneurs, make ya feel better.

Don't make assumptions of what I know and don't know about your country. I am not your average Nigerian who talks crap about SA.

You too should not assume that we know nothing about Nigeria

zolzlolz:
The trouble is, black people can't see the bigger picture. A black person gets a R1 million rand car, now black people are successful. But that money was supposed to have provided houses,  education, electricity. Can black progress not be measured by the increased number of blacks who get a house, the increased number of black children sent to school , the increased number of black children who don't have to study by candle light because they have electricity. Juju, people do not want to live like you and the white man. They just want a house, clean water, electricity, they want to vote for change. People cannot tell me that these people can live in excess in a country where over half of the population live in poverty. These people should be serving the people, DOING THEIR JOB, WORKING, instead of living luxurious lives that can serve as inspiration to dirt poor citizens. I'm not anti-ANC, I just don't have this blind loyalty like someone who has an obese friend, but won't tell them because they are afraid of hurting their feelings. I'M OUT!!

Don't you know that since 1994 the government has built over 2 million houses for the poor?
Do you not know that the government spends a quarter of the yearly budget on education?
Don't you know about the Eskom electrification program which now provides electricity to even the most rural places in SA. Watch Khumbul'ekhaya tonight to see people living in the mountains who have Eskom power lines.
Your mind has been corrupted by those whites who all live the good life in Cape Town

morpheus24:
Zozloz has taken the words right outta my mouth. A South African who can see through the BS.  I am speechless.

RSA

can you show the statistics of "the growing black middle class" that are not somehow connected to collecting BEE hand out money. PLEASE!!!

You obviously don't know much about BEE besides the abbreviation. Do you think it's a government office that dishes out 'BEE' grants? You probably think that every successful black South African has received a hand out from the government. Even if that was the case it would be a good show of a government by the people for the people.

These are the BEE codes that South African and Multi-National companies must comply with in order to do business with the government:

- Code 100 – Ownership
- Code 200 – Management & Control
- Code 300 – Employment Equity
- Code 400 – Skills Development
- Code 500 – Preferential Procurement
- Code 600 – Enterprise Development
- Code 700 – Socioeconomic development

There's no business hand outs my friend. Hand outs are done by the Department of Social Development which gives monthly social grants to the poor which makes poor South Africans only theoretically poor.

morpheus24:
Ah good to hear from an educated Black south African. Your kind are very rare on this forum. My southern brother the fact still remains that the consumption potential of Nigeria you speak of must be fueled by the ability to consume in maximum i.e a growing middle classs potential within a population size of 160 million people, driven by the high productivitiy levels vis a vis high educational and skilled levels required to support and sustain such consumption potentials.

The "giant of Africa" terminology recognizes this potential and does not refer to infrastructre and systems originally built by the Apatheid govt to service only the 5 million white population in SA. You do know that don't you? To brag about what was obviously not your doing is quite juvenile and silly. But don't worry though the govt got ya''ll taken care of with that BEE money cause your enterpreneurship potentials are docile

The power potential still resides in the most innovative people on the continent. Ask any white , chinese or Indian man who is trying to bring his capital into Nigeria what they fear the most about Nigerians. You lucky MTN and DSTV is still operated by South Africans. Give it a couple more years will ya. The competition is just round the corner SEE THE BELOW LINK

http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/international/2011/10/24/african-voices-building-network-of-leaders.cnn

I really don't care what Nigerians call themselves. What gets to me is when you people write off South Africa as a white mans project while you forget that white man is also responsible for most of what you see in Lagos and most parts of Nigeria. South Africans brag about infrastructure that was built in the last 17 years when black people where in charge and approved such projects. Not everything you see in SA was built by the apartheid government. Our black controlled government is currently building, through Eskom, power plants which will have an installed capacity of 17 000MW added to the white built 40 000MW. That's something to brag about because it's black mans initiative. You guys where celebrating when Group Five(white owned) completed a small project that pushed your entire generation capacity to 4 000MW.

Entrepreneurship potentials are docile? You Nigerians confuse salesmanship with entrepreneurship

AjanleKoko:
Not quite correct, sir.

1.Only the service sector is controlled by foreigners. That's the pay-TV and telecoms that you refer to.2. The financial sector is fully in the hands of Nigerians. And the likes of MTN, Airtel,  and Etisalat have been financed by Nigerian banks since their inceptions.3 MTN even syndicated financing of over a billion dollars from local banks, and raised a significant sum in private placement locally. Glo, warts and all, is wholly Nigerian-owned, and even has a significant achievement as the first Black African company to invest in transatlantic carrier services.4 Now we have Main One, also wholly Nigerian-owned, with their own submarine cable.

5.Retail and other forms of trade is 100% Nigerian. The industrial parks and markets in Ladipo, Alaba, Onitsha, or Aba are much bigger in terms of turnover than anything that has been brought in by any foreign players, even the likes of Spar and Shoprite in recent times.

6.Fast food business? The likes of Nando's, Chicken Republic, and KFC are struggling to stay afloat in a market dominated by local players like Mr Biggs, Tastee Chicken and Sweet Sensation. These players are declaring revenues in tens of millions of USD annually. This has always been the case.

7.Large-scale import of finished goods is mostly controlled by Nigerians.  We do have some Indians who participate, like Churchgate, but the Igbo traders are king here. You should check out Ladipo and see the kind of volumes they do there in auto parts. No foreign OEM can rival the volume of trade that goes on there.

8.Construction industry is 70% in the hands of Nigerians. Even the multinational construction companies in Nigeria (Costain, JB, RCC, PW, etc) have significant Nigerian shareholding, and this has always been so. Even the ancillary services such as architecture, structural services, interior finishings, etc, are mostly done by Nigerian-owned companies.

The Energy sector . . . yeah, well, MNCs control the upstream, but mostly in joint ventures in which the state owns the majority stake and provides the bulk financing. 9.The downstream sector is 100% owned and controlled and financed by Nigerians.

Education sector? 100% Nigerian. What about healthcare?

The long and short of it, my brother, is that 10.Nigerians are 100% in charge of our own economy. Sure we haven't done the greatest job of it. But we own it. Black South Africans own very little in South Africa, let's be frank. Mind you this is not about bragging rights.

We may not have the skyscrapers and theme parks, yes.11. But we built our own economy mostly by ourselves. Foreign participation is the icing on the cake, to bring in expertise and provide more value in the market. At the end of the day, Shoprite is stocking mostly products from the local market, side by side with their imported varieties from SA.12. Those products existed well before they came to Nigeria, and have been sold in Nigerian markets for decades.

1. You must be joking.
2. Fully in the hands of Nigerians? Clearly you don't know much about your economy. Maybe you haven't heard of Stanbic IBTC and yet you claim to know you economy.
3. That's true, MTN got a syndicated loan of $2 billion from Standard Bank of South Africa(white and Chinese owned) through Stanbic IBTC.
4. Main One just like WACS is a submarine cable that connects the west coast of Africa with Europe from South Africa to Portugal. It has part ownership in all landing points. It is not wholly Nigerian owned as you trying to fool me into believing.
5. Informal retail is 100% owned by Nigerians but formal retail is dominated by white foreigners. Most if not all products being retailed are owned by whites and Asians which means that Nigerians have no control of production. Those industrial parks have China written all over them.
6. The fast food industry in Nigeria is ultra small and will soon be made big by the whites who are now setting up shop. Nandos has more out lets in South Africa than Mr Biggs, Tastee Chicken and Sweet Sensation put together in Nigeria(just to show that the industry is small)
7. Proves my point. Nigeria is also controlled by white mans products. You can't brag about any exports except white controlled oil.
8. So much nonsense. Chinese are in charge of public projects and whites are in charge of private projects. Broll and Entech are leading the way in shopping mall developments financed by RMB and Stanbic IBTC. Group Five is involved in power plant construction. Protea Hotels, Southern Sun Legacy Hotels and Sun International are responsible for the construction and management of most hotels in Nigeria.
9. True, it's owned by the informal mafia who are serviced by the controlling white fat-cats upstream.
10. Nigerians own 100% of the informal economy serviced by the white controlled formal economy but the formal economy, which is the one growing at over 7%, is owned and controlled by whites, Indians and Chinese.
11. No you didn't. White man built most of what is now dilapidated infrastructure in Nigeria. New infrastructure is being built by whites and Chinese.
12. It doesn't change the fact that they are owned by whites.

White people have influence and control over the South African economy just as much as they do over that of Nigeria. Please remember that I can also tell you about black owned businesses in SA but whites continue to dominate just as they do in Nigeria's formal economy

morpheus24:
How many times will this insane topic be regurgitated.

South Africa is the gate way into Africa for investors as it boasts a sound legal, financial and constitution. SA is not the Giant of Africa because in real terms it is a quasi- African state that consists of an european so called 1st world economy(87% control of resources and lang) with a 3rd world 13% control of resources and land built around it.

There is a gradual shift that is taking place where redistribution of wealth is trickly to the 45 million "black' ( and I use this term loosely to include natives, coloureds and indians). The majority of wealth is still controlled by the European 5% settler population of the country so in comparative terms to both population size and income redistribution unfortunately SA cannot be considered the GIANT OF AFRICA.

Sorry my SA brothers. This is the reason the term is seldom used in global context. It has been estimated that SA has maxed out its GDP potentials and Nigeria is set to grow exponentially if the right structures are put in place.

Even the guy who coied the BRIC term considers this to be the potential future.

Whites, Indians and Chinese own and control the Nigerian formal economy. Nigeria's economy is still small but growing at a rapid pace and this growth is stimulated and managed by foreigners. The big informal economy of Nigeria is serviced by the formal structures controlled by Whites. Most products in Nigeria result in profit for Whites or Chinese. Nigeria is therefore a giant of consumption where Whites and Asians have a growing market for their products.

Nigerian oil, telecoms, formal retail, large-scale construction and most other industries are controlled by Whites or Asians. South African Whites have monopolised the pay-tv sector in Nigeria. South African Whites working together with South African Blacks control more than half of the telephony industry in Nigeria. Chinese and Whites are responsible for most new infrastructure in Nigeria. Whites take more profit from Nigerian oil than the Nigerian government. Very few products have 'Made in Nigeria' sticker on the back and those few products are owned by whites.

With your type of thinking the conclusion is as follows: Black South Africans don't own or control the South African economy therefore they are not giants ALSO Nigerians don't own or control the Nigerian economy therefore they are not giants.

You must be a Durbanite. Us Gautengers are coming to flood your city this festive. Joburg is a ugly city where all the money is made. Cape Town is a beautiful city where all the money is spent. Durban is in-between

zolzlolz I'm a black South African. Do you think I'm poor? All of my friends are black South Africans. Do you think they are poor? Just because you only see Malema's success and Kunene's success doesn't mean that they are the only successful black South Africans. You don't know how to think, you deserve to be put into the dumb category.

Progress is measured by an improvement in standard of living. You want black people to continue drinking unsafe river water, you want them to continue living in the dark of night, you want them to not study in their chosen field, you want them to not be ambitious, you want them not to acquire material things which make life easier, you want them not to enjoy the success they create. Shame on you zolzlolz, you don't want black people to progress.

The good thing is that your lousy view is in the minority. Everybody wants to own material things, coz these thing make our lives easier, comfortable and having them confirms the success we are creating.

Just so you know. JuJu was invited to the wedding by his rich black friend who was getting married. Malema didn't spend a cent

zolzlolz I'm now convinced that you don't know how to think properly.

zolzlolz:
Viv, 1.Juju's lifestyle is in EXCESS. Marie Antoinette got beheaded because of this(ie: She seriously p-ed people off). The newspapers have previously reported of how 2.Juju has abused his position of power for self enrichment. This is a spit in the face for the millions of poor folks in this country who toil and toil for peanuts. And I personally don't know what this is teaching SA youth. 3.I see school children chosing degrees like accounting solely on the basis that they'll be rich. They see what what JZ's family and friends have and they want that too. 4.If greed is motivating them to pursue these degrees, then how do you know they won't make dishonest choices throughout their careers solely to be rich. 5.There's a difference between wanting a better life and plain greed. I'm for broadening the mind, not broadening the wallet. The former empowers you to control your destiny and enables you to question, discover and improve your community. You shall inevitably lead a better life. 6.Owning expensive things is just materialistic. What is life if the only function of it is to gain material things?

1. Is his lifestyle therefore wrong? Is it also wrong for him to wish the same for others and actually campaign for it?
2. That one seems to be true but how does it change his wish for the economic emancipation of all young black South Africans?
3. Do you not want black South Africans to be ambitious?
4. Clearly you are anti-black progress. You don't like it when blacks get educated and use their education to create success and when they enjoy their success you call it excessive.
5. You obviously don't like seeing successful black South Africa. You going to live on vegetables your whole life.
6. It's only those who can't afford who say such.

zolzlolz you like arguing unrelated matters which makes your posts irrelevant of-topic junk. You probably a loner with too many philosophical thoughts that have no outlet except on this forum. In the real world life is all about capitalism even on the streets of Lagos you find informal capitalism where everybody is out to rip-off everybody else. It's not greed, it's just capitalising on those who can't negotiate, WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD.

[quote author=Vivian. SA link=topic=791590.msg9447981#msg9447981 date=1320005971]@Paniki
There absolutely nothing wrong with Julius Malema living a rich life especially if his riches are acquired legally.
But there is something that is wrong in principle by a leader who leads millions of impoverished young people during the day time and in the media and during the night indulges in a riches. Principally there is something wrong with that. A leader is some one ready to take up responsibility on behalf of those people that he/she is leading.
And most importantly in a silent and vicious struggle like economic freedom where your opposition in south africa is white supremecy and institutionalised racist economic exclusion of majority south africans, a person who is not ready to sacrifice all that he/she has to break down such supremecy is not ready to fight this battle and is seen by such institutions as a mere rhetoric leader.[/quote]JuJu is rich and he doesn't hide the fact that he is rich(which is what you want him to do). The thing that makes Julius Malema popular with the youth is that he wants other young black South Africans to be rich. They see a young rich man who publicly fights with government, corporate/industry heavyweights and others all in the interest of the youth, they don't care whether he's rich or poor - all they care about is the message that he delivers on their behalf.

It would be much better if the headline read:

KENYAN tycoon tightens grip on Kenya’s real estate market

How about LTE?

How about HSDPA?

From subsidising fuel to taxing it

ATLgal:
paniki NOT true

rookie is a slang not an official word,
American is when you speak bad English yet feel superior,
l

Lol, ok.

American English is when people say 'folks' instead of 'people', 'candy' instead of 'sweets', 'gas' instead of 'petrol', 'vacation' instead of 'holiday', 'line' instead of 'queue', 'sidewalk' instead of 'pavement'

How about 3G?

Many of you people seem to be talking about American spelling instead of American English. American English is when you use words like 'rookie' instead of 'novice'

Why should JuJu live a poor life? All he's doing is campaigning for others to live like he does. Is there anything wrong with that? Julius Malema is rich and he wants other young black South Africans to also be rich. How many rich people do you know who campaign for improved policies aimed at also making YOU rich?