lezz: why am i not surprised. This is exactly what my source called the doctored report of the war by sandf generals to suppress growing tensions at home. Chester Crocker knows better.
That is a study on the war in angola compiled by the USMC
When you compile a study to learn you dont write propaganda - you write fact, or else your study is useless.
Henry120: First thing first, the South-African Soldier is not better kitted than a Nigerian Soldier.
If I can get access like some of our lousy reporters get, with a Nikon 3000D Camera, i'll make as much Hollywood style photos as the Americans.
The South-African government cannot deploy 30,000 properly kitted soldiers in combat. 400- 1000 troops on a U.N mission is nothing. When kits begin to wear out faster than they can be replaced then, you realise, actual combat isn't hollywood.
There are hundreds of pictures on the other thread showing how irregularly your soldiers are equipped.
No webbing, mis-matched body armor, some have helmets some dont, most of the time their weapons are a mix of FALs and Ak-47s (different ammo types) communications equipment is barely ever seen. They wear a mix of uniforms, no grooming standards. Men have to supplement their kit with civilian clothing because their kit is insufficient for their needs.
Wearing out before you can replace it? That speaks to the poor quality of your equipment and nothing else.
Your troops are a poorly equipped and motley band of rebels compared to us.
AugustineAgain: Mister Liar ! You said yesterday that the explosion is 5.6 km away from the Gripen, so when you say my reply, you magically changed it to two times farther away at 11 km.....Fear of defeat...leads to wild imaginations
Fact is, the supersonic speed Gripen is speeding at 2,000 km/h into the blast 5.6 km distance ahead, and the blast is also speeding debris and projectiles towards the Gripen in head on collision.....hear your own voice below...
Next, you say 11.8 kg explosive of both missiles ?
Well, a military researcher is always one step ahead of you
PL-9C missile high explosive warhead alone is 11.89 kg....say 12 kg.
Add A-Darter warhead, say another 12 kg.
Total high explosive = 24 kg = 3 times the explosive power of anti-tank landmine that blows up solid steel armoured main battle tanks !
Plus the fuel inside both missiles, say 10 gallons of flammable fuel ! You forgot to add fuel explosion to warhead explosion !
So, power of the blast is = 3 anti-tank land mines and 10 gallons of petrol all mixed together against an aluminium/glass body aircraft !
You cannot turn a high speed jet aircraft away from a frontal incoming divergent wave explosion in 4 seconds.
Gripen is travelling at supersonic high speed 2,000 km/h and just 4 seconds away from an incoming explosion that is throwing high speed debris, fire and sharp projectiles in divergent wave (SPREADING OUTWARD INCREASING AREA COVERAGE IN A 360 DEGREE SPHERICAL DIRECTION.....four dimensional explosion on all four cardinal points....see my photo below).
The Gripen is not a spirit that turns in half a second, not even one second, pilots needs several seconds to pull throttle stick, jet needs time to respond, airframe ailerons and flaps need time to respond, jet fighters CANNOT make high g pulls or sharp turns at supersonic high speed, the jet will stall.....means lose control by losing engine power, or the wings can break off and tear off the aircraft.
Gripen has died o !
I just showed you why close range air combat is called a zone of death, and the 20 km missile range is a NO ESCAPE ZONE for pilots.
Also, I have shown you why no pilot in this world has ever stopped a missile with his own missile, air to air missiles, NO PILOT NO WAR HAS EVER ACHIEVED THAT MISSION IMPOSSIBLE !
Always one step ahead of you.....get it ? Yes you get it ! .
Why does the Gripen only hit the target 5km away?
Why not 10? 15? 20?
No pilot has shot one down because 3rd gen missiles are only starting to be used now - and incase you noticed there hasnt been air-to-air combat in allmost a decade.
lezz: I'm done doing petty arguments with you folks. Hence forth I shall be giving the audience piece by piece excerpts of that war. How south Africa is officially a lying country with no truth whatsoever. And you SA folks here are just as pathetic as your lying disgraced army. Enjoy the read:
[b]29 February 1988 Fifth Attack Again when the SA attacked the Angolans suffered some losses, as every time exaggerated to 800 dead and 7 tanks destroyed. And as ever the enemy attack was rejected, but this time for the first time, the radio stations intercepted an official military SA report that admitted 20 dead and 59 wounded only in the battle of the day. It was now evident and infamous how the Apartheid regime informed only the more rich and prestigious families about the dead of their sons. Many South African parents, that had not many links with the dictatorship, received no information and in some case also threats, imposing silence. The 17 March, Ernesto Chavez on his MiG-23 is shot down and killed by a South African anti-aircraft weapon, a Ystervark of 20mm. It was the only victory of the South African anti-aircraft defence. The 19 March during a lone Recce mission the Mirage of Willie Van Coppenhagen crashed and the pilot was killed. The enemy didn’t know the cause and supposed an accident, but at real it was shot down by Angolans. [/b]
Courtosy of an official USMC study on the border war:
In 1978 the SADF conducted two coordinated raids against SWAPO in Angola.Operation Reindeer consisted of an airborne assault on Cassinga, a training base morethan 250 kilometers from the border. It resulted in six hundred dead and 340 woundedinsurgents. Simultaneously, a mechanized task force comprised of fifty-four armoredvehicles conducted a successful raid against a headquarters (HQ) and log base atChetequera. Reindeer produced excellent intelligence on PLAN doctrine, organization,and strategy. It also demonstrated the vulnerability of light airborne forces; when theCassinga task force withdrew via helicopter, it was under heavy pressure from FAPLAarmor units. 19
Operation Sceptic in 1980, was a three-week raid on SWAPO HQ by four mechanized battalion combat groups. The groups destroyed, over a period of four days, ahuge base area more than two thousand square kilometers in size. The goal of theoperation was to force the insurgents to move further away from the border area andcomplicate their access to the Ovambo population in Namibia. Sceptic killed 380 guerrillas at the cost of seventeen South Africans; it also produced hundreds of tons of captured ammunition, weapons, and equipment. 20
Protea in 1981, was another three-week operation conducted by six SADF combatgroups. During this raid the SADF fought a combined FAPLA/PLAN force in a series of set-piece battles. The South African combat groups mauled two FAPLA brigades,destroyed three hundred tons of ammunition, and captured eight T-34 tanks, three PT-76amphibious tanks, three BRDMs, one BM-21, twenty-four 76mm guns, sixteen AU-23-2antiaircraft guns, fourteen M55 20mm AAA guns, and two hundred trucks. FAPLA'sdefeat forced it and SWAPO to withdraw far from the southern edge of Angola.
Daisy a follow-on operation derived from Protea's intelligence windfall, saw SADFfighting columns roam four hundred kilometers into Angola to destroy a SWAPO HQ atBambi and a base at Cherequera. It took four days to get to the targets; once on site themechanized columns spent twelve days razing the base. Due to the damage induced by Protea and Daisy SWAPO terrorist incidents in Namibia declined twenty-eight percentduring the following year.
Operation Askari in 1983-84, was designed to neutralize the growing threat and disrupt the logistic support necessary for the annual infiltration of insurgents into Namibia. Four SADF battalion-size mechanized task forces combed southern Angola over a five week span. On 3January 1984, the SADF fought 11 Brigade (FAPLA) and for the first time, two Cubanbattalions, in a hard fought engagement. The South Africans killed 324 enemy and captured eleven T-54 tanks and much other combat equipment for the loss of twenty-one men. http://www.scribd.com/doc/52703286/South-African-Defense-Forces-SADF-USMC-Analysis-of-Operations-in-Angolan-War#scribd
AugustineAgain: That is why I said, South African army should deploy 30,000 troops into one single battle theatre like Nigerian army and let us see how well kitted their soldiers will be.
It's easy to put 1,000 troops into UN Peace mission and dress them like American soldiers, but deploy 30,000 troops and see the cost of kits .
All South African soldiers are equipped in the exact same way.
AugustineAgain: You cannot turn a high speed jet aircraft away from a frontal incoming divergent wave explosion in 4 seconds.
Gripen is travelling at supersonic high speed 2,000 km/h and just 4 seconds away from an incoming explosion that is throwing high speed debris, fire and sharp projectiles in divergent wave (SPREADING OUTWARD INCREASING AREA COVERAGE IN A 360 DEGREE SPHERICAL DIRECTION.....four dimensional explosion on all four cardinal points....see my photo below).
The Gripen is not a spirit that turns in half a second, not even one second, pilots needs several seconds to pull throttle stick, jet needs time to respond, airframe ailerons and flaps need time to respond, jet fighters CANNOT make high g pulls or sharp turns at supersonic high speed, the jet will stall.....means lose control by losing engine power, or the wings can break off and tear off the aircraft.
Gripen has died o !
I just showed you why close range air combat is called a zone of death, and the 20 km missile range is a NO ESCAPE ZONE for pilots.
Also, I have shown you why no pilot in this world has ever stopped a missile with his own missile, air to air missiles, NO PILOT NO WAR HAS EVER ACHIEVED THAT MISSION IMPOSSIBLE !
Always one step ahead of you.....get it ? Yes you get it ! .
Citation needed for everything
And who is to say the A-darter doesnt hit your missile at 10km, 15km or 20km out?
AugustineAgain: You see the red letter part of your post above ? A military expert will ALWAYS be one step ahead of you
PL-9C and A-Darter explode 5.6 km ahead of Gripen, but supersonic speed Gripen flies fast at 2,000 km/h into the explosion danger head !
1. Two missiles, one main big fire ball. Centre of explosion fireball....it does not vanish in few seconds....the burning continues.
2. High explosive warheads produce shrapnel, splinters, broken pieces of flame that is forced to scatter at high speed in 360 degrees direction.
3. Fire balls at centre of explosion does not vanish away in 1 second, it goes continues combustion for many seconds. Still deadly....see your own photo above. Missiles contain both high explosive warheads and fuel....mix all together !
4. The Gripen is actually flying at fast supersonic speed towards the exploded missiles, it will run into the fire ball just 4 seconds ahead !
5. Also, second danger is that the Gripen is flying at supersonic speed towards the blown up missiles, and the splinters/shrapnel/burning hot flying projectiles from the explosion is also flying at high speed towards the Gripen, in 2 seconds the Gripen will enter the flying shrapnel/debris radius and get a blast hit on the Gripen. Many pilots have died in real life war from high speed debris breaking through cockpit canopy glass to strike the pilot, or engine gets hit like a bird strike, or ordnance gets hit and explodes, or fuel tank gets hit and explodes.
Gripen has flown into death circle ! EXPLOSION OR BLAST RADIUS is the name ! See my photo below.
Try drive a car at 200 km/h speed and try escape an exploding petrol container 2 seconds position ahead of you !
A 2,000 km/h speed jet will not escape an explosion of missiles just 4 seconds ahead of the jet, it will fly into the burning death trap.
I am talking from pilots' real life combat experience, not internet copy and paste via google search.
Military researcher will ALWAYS be one step ahead of you !
Good morning my student, you owe me school fees, pay now or send your 18 year old junior sister to 'pay' me on your behalf
.
Ok - this is a very long post.
It shall defeat it 6 with words:
The Gripen turns away from the explosion.
You sad sad little boy, you know you arent a military researcher, we know you arent as well. Yet you continue to claim you are one. Its, well, its just sad.
NaijaPikinGidi: You are actually re-emphasising the Agaugust's argument and valid point made! Show us the the number of black South African intellectual Nobel winners (I'm not talking of the Peace Prize category).
AugustineAgain: I have lectured you so much, but your moronic head still thinks radar is like FLIR foward looking infra red.
Radar is not light beams, it is waves that blow out and expand from emission source.
No matter how you turn aside, the F-7 is facing the Gripen, your sideways turn still enters the divergent waves coverage of the F-7 Grifo radar and at 50 km away the F-7 detects the Gripen.
I have shown you scientific sources of the known radar detection in combat, front hemisphere, lower hemisphere, upper hemisphere, rear hemisphere. The ranges are specified, Dis you see anything like range for side hemisphere ? Fool !
"The forward-facing NIIP N011M Bars (Panther) is a powerful integrated passive electronically scanned array radar. The N011M can function in air-to-air and air-to-land/sea mode simultaneously while being tied into a high-precision laser-inertial or GPS navigation system. It is equipped with a modern digital weapons control system as well as anti-jamming features. N011M has a 400 km search range and a maximum 200 km tracking range, and 60 km in the rear hemisphere.The radar can detect ground targets such as tanks at 40–50 km. The Bars radar will be replaced by Zhuk-AESA in all Su-30MKI aircraft."
No matter how you turn aside, the F-7 is facing the Gripen, your sideways turn still enters the divergent waves coverage of the F-7 Grifo radar and at 50 km away the F-7 detects the Gripen.
Stop adding the non-existent side hemisphere as radar has become an FLIR.
You live in a psycho world of imaginary day dreams different from how air combat and jets operate
Abeg am done with this foolish argument.
I sh.ot down your Gripen, you were b.uried, you want to open coffin and come out, abeg go back to your g.rave, stop wasting my time .
Augustus.
You are posting stats for highly powerfull radar.
The radar cone on your 50km Gilfio is tiny.
Gripen can easily evade it and turn your flanks.
The only one who is a psycho here is the one who says that a Second Generation fighter with Second Generation missiles stands a chance against a Fourth Generation fighter with Third Generation missiles.
AugustineAgain: Radar power is just waves, it travels sideways, the waves are divergent NOT convergent.
There is no way in this world that two aircraft coming from opposite directions will not meet before one can get behind or beside the other.
Simple common sense you don't have, now put two stones on opposite ends of a straight line, start moving them close to each other, at a point they must meet before one goes off the straight line to the back of the other.
50 km range of F-7 radar waves are divergent, not convergent, it will see the Gripen even if you turn sideways at 50 km away.
Side by side ? At 50 km away the F-7 knows the Gripen is coming ahead, if you turn to the side, he too will turn to that side, he is a combat pilot NOT a fisherman like MR.Day in South African sea waters.
I am tired of talking with a man who does not know that waves diverge from a point as they emit outwards, you are a pure breed domingo .
Gripen detects you at 120km - F-7 pilots dont even know enemy aircraft are around at that distance.
Squadron breaks, half cut height and push off to the sides, half turn around and lure you into the trap.
You know they dont HAVE to travel in straight lines and they dont HAVE to fly straight at you.
By the time you see the half baiting the trap the other half are well outside the cone of the F-7 radar on your flanks.
Jet radars has detection for upper hemisphere, lower hemisphere, and rear behind the jet.
Thats how jets detect enemy above, target on ground, and enemy behind. F-7 has a circa year 2005 modern generation Italian- Grifo radar.
Example :
"Phazotron N001 Zhuk coherent pulse Doppler radar with track-while-scan and look-down / shoot-down capability. The range of the radar against 3m² targets is over 100km in the forward hemisphere and 40km in the rear hemisphere. The radar has the capacity to search, detect and track up to ten targets with automatic threat assessment and prioritisation."
As I said, it is almost impossible for Gripen at 120 km away to be behind the F-7, when the Gripen and F-7 are coming face to face from two opposite directions of each person's war zone frontline, except you are stupiid enough to think South Africa built it's air force base inside Nigerian territory so your jets take off from behind NAF air base and approach F-7 from behind.
Foolish daydreamer .
The picture illistrates my point perfectly - it shows you radar cone and it shows you the difference between a scanning cone and a tracking cone.
AugustineAgain: At 120 km away, the Gripen 20 km missile is TOTALLY useless.
At 50 km away, F-7 detects the Gripen, if the Gripen has turned to it's back to approach from behind, the F-7 simply banks, simply turns and becomes face to face with the Gripen in few seconds.....the simplest aircraft maneuver in the world I could say
Your just posting crap, you know NOTHING about air to air dogfight. Go sit down men !
CASE CLOSED .
At 120km Gripen can start maneuvers to shorten your F-7's detection range
Your F-7's radar points forwards not sidways and backwards.
Gripen drops low and uses radar clutter to lesson the chance of detection
Gripen approaches from the side outside of the F-7's radar cone
Gripen fires missile with its targeting radar turned off - targetting data is fed to it by LinkZA from Gripen sitting outside of F-7 missile range. This prevents your F-7 pilots receiving targeting warning (but i doubt F-7 even has those capabilities)
The first time your pilot realizes there is even a Gripen there is when an A-darter turns him into pink mist
This fukken fool things Aircraft have a perfect 360 degree bubble of radar?
Hahaha - joker, this joker wants us to beleive he is a military analyst!!
AugustineAgain: SADF had only 4,000 soldiers on Angolan battlefront. South Africa did not and does NOT have any 200,000 man army from 1970s till today, or you making Xerox photo-copies of human being ? .
AugustineAgain: You know I am always one step ahead of you in this game, yes 18 seconds to travel from F-7 to Gripen, but about half of that time to kill the Gripen.....first 9 seconds of PL-9C flight is not deadly, it's the time wasted to suck the target into the NO ESCAPE ZONE of air to air dogfight.
After the first 9 seconds, the PL-9C has closed in on the Gripen to trap the target inside the technical NO ESCAPE ZONE.....KILL ZONE !
9 seconds, that is why I said about 10 seconds. I know what I am saying, this is real combat not internet copy and paste from a website.
In that zone, even your flares and chaff will find it very difficult to save you because you are head to head with the PL-9C and your own jet speed is used against you as you are actually running straight into collision course with the PL-9C.
In that zone, if by miracle (Which will not happen anyway) you fire A-Darter to intercept the PL-9C, the two missiles will collide and explode about 5 seconds distance from the Gripen and the explosion plus fire ball splinters will hit the Gripen and blow it up or k.ill the pilot through the cockpit glass !
So, the other case is if the PL-9C pilot manuevers his missile to evade the coming A-Darter after the first 9 seconds, the IRIS-T will follow the lock-on and pursue the PL-9C from behind, then suddenly both missiles are now heading to hit the Gripen during the last 9 seconds in the NO ESCAPE KILL ZONE....your Gripen jet pilot will be hit by two missiles in quick succession and double explosion will tear the Gripen into blinking bits and pieces you will never see the pilot's dead body for ever.
SAAF will bury an empty coffin with the flag of the Repuiblic of South Africa covering it, no corpse inside.
That is war in reality, that is how jet fighters fight, you won't find that to copy and paste from internet.
A Nigerian pilot will always think one step ahead of a South African pilot. 9 or 10 seconds to death in the NO ESCAPE KILL ZONE.
GAME OVER ! .
Augustus
The Gripen will detect the F-7 from 120km out - it will be ready long before the F-7 even knows there are other Jets around.
The Gripen will start evasive maneuvers as soon as it detects missile launch from the F-7 - turning away from it and deploying Chaff and EW to jam it.
The time is a total of 18 seconds, this is final.
The PLC-9 cannot out maneuver the A-darter and it is not advanced enough to do so (not advanced enough to detect, identify and create an evasion forumla and a targeting solution for the aircraft) - the A-darter will hit it straight on and obliterate it.
What you are talking about is not how jets fight - it is a delusion that you have created so that in your tiny mind a 3rd generation F-7 with 2nd gen missiles can take on a 4th Generation Gripen with 3rd generation missiles
In reality the Gripen will see you first, maneuver outside your F-7's forward facing radar cone and drop altitude so that it gets added stealth from ground clutter, other Gripen then go on and get the F-7 to chase them (but making sure to stay out of missile range), when your pilots change their radars form air-search to track they will lose all situation awareness as their radar's will be focused on a 40 degree cone around the gripen they are chasing. At this point the other gripen strike- it will deploy missiles first and kill first.
saengine: Lmao!! He did exactly what i said he would do....he developed a whole new capability for PL-9 missile . This is one of your most pathetic posts...which says a lot. Lets pretend you have 35km range missiles...
1. You just pulled the 10 second incoming missile time detection completely out of your a.ss. You just blatently made something up....infront of everyone. How embarrassing . What must the Gripen pilot do to detect a missile? Boil water, slaughter a goat while looking out the window with binoculors? System is completely automatic, high end electronic processors. Argument demolished.
2. Minimum distance you can fire at us is 20km. At "4000km/h" it takes 18 seconds to travel that distance. Again showing you are making sh*t up with "10 seconds". You're telling us in 2015 with it takes a 4th generation fighter more than 18 seconds to detect threats? Making sh*t up. Argument demolished.
3. PL-9 will not out maneuver A-Darter. PL-9 can pull 40g turns. A-Darter can pull 100g turns. More than twice as agile. It is doomed. PL-9 has no ability to dodge missiles while still tracking target, you made that up. Ignoring false targets doesnt mean you dodge them...it means you ignore them (e.g flares). PL-9 3rd generation processor wont even know what's going on. Argument demolished.
4. You say there are no real life war examples of such self defence capabilities on missiles. Why dont you rather tell us which real air to air dogfights have there been in the past few years, where one or both of the jets was carrying the lastest 5th generation missiles and needed to defend itself? Tell us...which dogfight? 5th gen missiles are relatively new, coming online. How many air forces have them? Argument demolished.
South African Army in Angolan Bush War Battlefield :
"The battalion primarily consisted of black Angolan soldiers and non-commissioned officers (NCOs) led by whites of the “old” RSA Empire officers and NCOs, although there was also a number of officers from countries, especially in its early stages, such as: the United Kingdom, Rhodesia, Portugal, United States, and Italy."
Show me where Germany or South Africa tested IRIS-T or A-Darta against a tiny snake sized target of an incoming air to air missile.
Clue : A-Darter was only tested against a big target drone the size of an aircraft and that slow drone has only maximum of 1,000 km/h speed.....PL-9C speed is 4,000 km/h !!!!
I am not an internet copy paste military analyst, I am trained on my job to challenge any claim from Germany to Japan, I fear no white-man.....I am not a Soweto based zombie remote controlled stooge like you .[/size]
Show us where the PLC-9 engaged a target at 35km
Augugbug, stop claiming to be some sort of military analyst - every time we ask you to prove it you run away.
AugustineAgain: Military technical language beyond your level.
Every modern SRAAM is for self defence of the jet fighter. Short range, close combat. I am not a copy paste military person, I work in defence industry. We have different level of technical soundness. You dwell only on internet. BVRAAM is offensive. SRAAM is defensive .
You have a different level of technical soundness?
You thought an MBT could float!! You tried to tell us that high altitude air slows down projectiles!!
The source says clearly those foreigners were 60% of the SADF army, not UNITA.
You also don't know what UNITA means or what SADF means.
"3. Contrary to popular believe, most SADF soldiers fighting the Bushwar, were non-white volunteers, with as much as 60% by the closing years of the war."
AugustineAgain: If at all the Gripen ever gets that chance. The 4,000 km/h speed of the PL-9C is too fast, it needs about 10 seconds to hit target.
The Gripen pilots needs :
1. Time to detect PL-9C launch by scan
2. Time to track PL-9C
3. Time to lock on a tiny PL-9C missile the size of a snake with very small RCS,
4. Time to command launch his IRIS-T or A-Darter missile
5. Time to release the A-Darter off pylon before booster rocket ignition motions his missile
6. Time to fly the A-Darter before it achieves safe distance to arm for combat, or else at close range the explosion from two clashing missiles will blast his Gripen with shrapnel and splinters or fire/flame particles.....he will end up as a suicide victim
He needs too much time more than the 10 seconds, the PL-9C has already killed Gripen.
Reason why the kill probability of the PL-9C is 90% kill, when it's fired on a target, that target is 90% dead.
The PL-9C will swing to a different angle, in a loop, it out-maneuvers a false target, by the time the PL-9C is back in direction of the Gripen, the A-Darter is following it from behind, by the time the PL-9C gets to the Gripen, the two missiles will hit same Gripen target.
The SAAF Gripen pilot actually sh.ot himself down
No where in war history has any air to air missile intercepted another air to air missile, if it is possible, somebody would have done it, and pilots in dog fight will never get sh.ot down .
Gripen fusion of 3rd gen fighters makes target lock and fire allmost simultanious
Doesnt matter what your missile does - A-darter can pull 100G turns, your missile cannot out maneuver it, its cannot escape it.
Gripen can also deploy chaff and jamming against your missile.
Foreign Affairs › Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by Patchesagain: 2:18pm On Apr 06, 2015
