₦airaland Forum

Hermes119:
You see the problem with the bible.

The problem isn't with the bible, the problem is with mischievous doctrine makers of mostly the ancient Roman catholic who were never educated enough to understand figure of speeches, hence they spiritualize them

It's open to numerous interpretations,a passage in the book ofThessalonians is interpretated by most christians to mean rapture and you,a Christian alike is saying that there interpretation is wrong

every book is open to numerous interpretation. But the interpretation that is most reasonable will always be the valid one.

How can you say people will fly to the air from this earth and the same time you are saying that God gave the earth to the same people to have dominion?

If I know i will fly away someday then what's the point trying to work hard, acquire resources and make life meaningful here on earth?

Maynman:
Praying 5 times a day is not also in the Quran. Hope you don’t follow it?

I'm not sure all Muslims do all that

LordReed:
So? It is part of the valid scripture of Muslims.

ok,
The reference can be gotten from source other than the Quran?

The fact that you would go through this trouble to try and invalidate this Muslim perspective indicates to me that you really don't accept all prophecies like you initially said. You have some other criteria to use to evaluate what you accept or reject.

i just want to be sure where the source of the article is coming from.

In either case, the article didn't project that Islam was going to be the greatest religion but rather, islam will grow into a global relevance.

Such projections is like the illustration you gave before, that the sun will rise tommorow which is certain.
Because, every religion have the tendency to grow into global significance.

LordReed:
3 Collected by Aḥmad (16998, 23865) and al-Haythami said these narrators are those of Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhāri; al-Ḥākim (8326) who deemed it authentic according to the criteria of Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhāri and Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim; and al-Albāni authenticated it according to the criteria of Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim in as-Silsila aṣ-Ṣaḥīḥa (3).

4 Collected by Muslim (2899).

ok,

Obviously this isn't the content of the Qur'an

Hermes119:
How did your religion gain relevance,no be through the same violence and intimidation

it does matter how prophecies are fulfilled, the bottom-line is, the prophecy has been fulfilled.

If you want to talk about violence, Christians were killed too, they were persecuted from the on-set.

Atheists perpetrated violence against religious people too. Adolf Hitler was an example

Hermes119:
Wait does this mean you don't believe in rapture,the world coming to an end and all that

I don't believe in that trash, there is no such thing as rapture or end of the world in the bible. The term END OF THE WORLD is largely misinterpreted.

Nor be all Christians mumu like that

Hermes119:
Oga where was it stated in that verse that Jesus' death and resurrection is God's kingdom

You know how your question sound?

You are like someone who never read any science book before perhaps your discipline is the arts , then you are requesting from a scientist where is it written in a science book that there is artificial selection?

You want the scientist to start giving you lectures from the scratch on NL?

I'm not going to start giving you lectures about the mysteries of God's kingdom in the bible how Jesus describe his kingdom in his parables, you will have to go and read all that yourself if you are that interested

LordReed:
3. The Globalization of Islam
Amidst the fiercest persecution and abuse that the Muslims faced in the earliest Meccan period, the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ would stand without wavering and convey to his followers God’s promise of Islam spreading all over the world. Tamīm ad-Dāri (rA) reports that the Messenger of Allah ﷺ said, “This matter will certainly reach every place touched by the night and day. Allah will not leave a house of mud or [even] fur except that Allah will cause this religion to enter it, by which the honorable will be honored and the disgraceful will be disgraced. Allah will honor the honorable with Islam and he will disgrace the disgraceful with unbelief.”3 In another narration, reported by Thawbān (rA), “Indeed, Allah gathered up the earth for me so that I saw its east and its west; and indeed the dominion of my nation will reach what was gathered up for me from it.”4 The fact that these predictions were made at a time when Muslims were a powerless handful, and Islam was expected to be buried in its cradle, is nothing short of miraculous. At that point, presuming that the faith would even survive would be considered by most nothing short of a pipe-dream. But to predict that Islam would not just survive, but grow to thrive globally, was at that point inconceivable. For us nowadays, witnessing a quarter of this planet’s population as subscribers to Islam makes it clear that this was no presumption, but instead another prophecy inspired by the Divine.
https://yaqeeninstitute.org/read/paper/the-prophecies-of-prophet-muhammad

this article wasn't extracted from the Quran, right?

What chapter and verse?

HellVictorinho4:
What is funny?

you don't know the content of what we were discussing

LordReed:
So that proves Islam is true?

That will be true only if there was any such prophecy like you said.
But having gone to check i discover that there is no such thing in the Quran that Muhammad or any Islamic prophet project into the future about the growth of islam. They can't even try it because they are mere humans

I already told you. The god does not fit with reality. If your god did exist reality would be a whole lot different but what we experience together doesn't look like what the attributes of the god you believe in would accomplish.

What attributes of God did they tell you?

LordReed:
Yes there are prophecies. Even the Muslims believe that the whole world will become Islamic. And by about 2070 it is estimated that Islam will overtake Christianity according to current population growth trends.

it is very possible that may happen, anything is possible

The fact that a god has not been seen is just 1 reason why one can consider why a god doesn't exist but it is not the major reason why I know your god doesn't exist.

what exactly is the major reason?
Is it that he did not answer your prayer or he allows evil to thrive?

kingxsamz:
It still doesn't change the fact that the less religious people become, the more the religion dies.

very true!
But so far, that isn't the case with Christianity.

For instance, I myself I'm less religious.
I hardly go to church.
If you don't ask me one on one, you won't even know that I'm a Christian. Except for the comments i posts on NL

There are millions of Christians who are like that, especially among the youths. It doesn't change the fact that they are still Christians in the heart.

Belonging to a religion or not is a thing of the heart, not what you see people do.

And Those pastors who have got a hold on the masses won't be alive anymore. Same thing with our politicians. So 100 years from now, there'd be a massive decline in Christianity

You can't predict it that way it does not follow .

As for Islam, that terrorist organization might take a thousand years. But like I said, it wouldn't matter. We'd all be dead.

even the coercive and violent approach or Islamic jihads over the years have ensure the growth of Islam world-wide.

Terrorism will not stop now, that means Islam will continue to grow

kingxsamz:
Lmao, story.
Compare religious criticism of now and ten years ago. It's increasing. Even Christians now bash Christianity.

As a matter of fact, these kind of criticism helps to question dogmatic conservative beliefs and allows more realistic school of thoughts.
So, it is very healthy for Christianity today

Remember, it was the same kind of criticism Galelio made against the church in his time. Today, knowing that Galelio was right in his critism made the church better today in terms of cosmological knowledge

The younger generation are less religious than the older generation, and the younger generation don't really care much about religion. They'll only grow up to have more irreligious kids, and it goes on and on.

Christianity was never meant to be practiced religiously in the first place. It was suppose to be a day to day normal living.

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

It's only the generation of pastor Adeboye and Oyedepo that are strict to religious practices. So...

at the time of the intense covid19 pandemic what happened?
For more than five months Adeboye and Oyedepo did not go to church again.

Did they die for not going to church?
The answer is no!

But before the pandemic it appeared that if these men miss going to church in one Sunday something terrible will happen to them.

There were Nigerians who had the same belief until the pandemic came and thought them a lesson

Hermes119:
You should know better to back this up
Bible refernces needed

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

this talked about Jesus being crucified and resurrected.

His resurrection was actually done with great power and glory.

If you read down in that same Matthew 24 , he specifically said that generation will not pass away until all these things are fulfilled.

kingxsamz:
Lol, 100 years from now, your religion will loose relevance. You think we're still in the age where you'll tell a kid that a Jewish man died for them and they'll just accept in fear? In this age of internet?
Anyways, we'll all be dead, so it doesn't matter anyway.

they will not accept in fear anymore, they will accept in knowledge that's what you don't know.

Go to Europe and other first world continents and see how Christianity is being practiced among knowledgeable young generations today. It has transcended what we do here in primitive Africa

LordReed:
Ok so the Muslims are also divinely inspired I guess since they are the second largest religious group and by some accounts are the fastest growing religious group?

I really don't know if there are prophesies concerning the growth of Islam in the Quran. The one i know is that of Christianity which has been fulfilled and serves as evidence

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

God is not seen that's why you can say he does not exist right?
I'm telling you now that Faith is the evidence that, that God that is not seen exist

Hermes119:
Strawman don start
I am not requesting a scriptural back up to show that we all die at different date
That wasn't what you said
Below is what you said
Everyone have their own date of his coming.
I am requesting for a scriptural back up for that

And i have said his coming in the context of the scripture you mentioned that says "behold i come soon" refers to the day we will die.
I quoted this scripture to back it up

Hebrews 9:27 As it is appointed once for men to die, after that the judgement

The essence of him coming is to judge humans, and that will happen only when we die.

You will also agree that everyone are not going to die at the same date. Hence my statement EVERYONE HAVE THEIR OWN DATE OF HIS COMING "

Hermes119:
Paxonel was this passage fulfilled
Mathew 16 vs28
.”Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

the passage has been fulfilled.
The some standing here were his disciples standing with him at that time he was talking to them, they did not die or taste death until Jesus was crucified and resurrected.

The son of man coming in his kingdom refers to him being crucified and resurrected.

LordReed:
Where did Jesus mention 2000 years?

That parable was a progressive statement, It does not necessarily mean he says 2000 years as time is still progressing.
Another 5000 or 15,000 years Christianity is still growing.

2000 years comes from reasoning that, if Jesus had made the statement 2000 years ago..?

You know the era in human history indicated as +AD is approximately 2000 years?
That's what we are saying.

Hermes119:
You see what I'm saying
When we point out the problems in your scripture you start giving these crap excuses
Meanwhile present scriptural back up for the part highlighted

I don't get you.
Are you requesting for a scriptural back up to show that we all die at different date?

Who doesn't know that?

There are certain truth you don't need bible to explain, you have to use your discretion to understand

LordReed:
It's not really a single book I reference to know that your god doesn't exist and in fact it's not really the books either, it's reality. Reality doesn't operate the way most of the so called holy books seem to portray it. Is there a bigger truth than the reality you and I both live in, I don't think so.

Of course the Bible would say that, any community would guide against loosing it's members. Jesus saying people would stop believing is like me saying the sun will rise tomorrow, it is any inevitability but is been harnessed by the Bible to prove some kind of magical/supernatural power. TB Joshua is the prime example for our times, claimed to have the ear of God but couldn't forsee his own death or plan accordingly. Fact is no supernatural insight into the future can be properly demonstrated. One can take several educated guesses and narrow down a desired outcome but that isn't a supernatural power. Humans are subject to all manner of repeating pressures and behaviours that predictability is not far fetched at all. This is why analysts exist, they can take data, figure out the trends and make predictions based on it, doesn't require any kind of godlike power to do.

inevitabilies like the sun will rise are consistent occurence. Predictions can be easily made that the sun will rise tommorow.

But when someone is saying that a movement that consistent of only 120 people today, will grow to become the largest movement in the world 2000 years from now, who does that?

Reason am now?

Hermes119:
There is a glittering botanical error in that passage you quoted

This isn't about botany, it's figurative language

Firstly the mustard seed is not the smallest of all seeds like Jesus said

it might just be the smallest of seeds planted among the ancient Israel of that time.
If there is any smaller than the mustard found in Asia you wouldn't expect Jesus to use that as illustration to Israelites who knew nothing about it.

]
Secondly when it grows up it is not the largest of all herbs like Jesus said [/question] it does not necessarily mean the tree should be the biggest, it's a parable or figure of speech.
Now, take a look at the mustard tree below.
No other seed as tiny as mustard seed could grow to such a big size except mustard seed itself.
That's the illustration.
[quote]Now to the topic,I'm not impressed by that prediction because of course it's a parable which is open to numerous interpretations.

The parable is not open to numerous interpretations, It is very specific.
The mustard seed refers to Christianity.
Christianity started as a tiny religion with just 120 people, among other large religions 2000 years ago.
Judaism was among the largest religions at that time.

What happened to Jesus simply saying something like ....."This religion I have instituted would become the greatest religion in future".

if he had put it that way then it would no more be parable but a literal statement.
Parables were meant to confuse the Pharisees of that time.

But even if I accept that your interpretation of the passage is correct,it's not so impressive that Jesus predicted that the movement he was starting would become so great in future I mean so many successful people predicted or envisaged there success,nothing extraordinary about that

it is more easy to predict future success than to predict bet9ja
If i plan for the future today, the outcome will certainly be good at all things being equal.
And bet9ja is more easy to predict than what will happen 2000 years from now, who does that?
Can anyone control the future up to 2000 years?

I would have thought you would quote a certain scripture
....behold I come soon....

over 2000years is not soon enough

behold i come soon is another figurative statement a lot of us didn't understand.
The day you die that is the day he will come for you.

Hebrews 9:27 As it is appointed once for men to die, after that the judgement

Everyone have their own date of his coming.

That means, when he told them 2000 years ago that he will come soon, he meant they will die soon.

LordReed:
Of course there is but it is not taken as a virtue as an atheist to "blindly" trust anyone. Also there is no "book of atheism" urging me to "blindly" trust its conclusions or compulsorily act according to its dictates so there is little avenue for me to develop that kind of "blind" trust. As a matter of fact all the popular atheists I hear always urge everyone to critically examine what they say.

so, what reference do you use to validate that God do not exist since you say "there is no book of atheism" ?
because, obviously blind trust of believers or atheists have nothing to do with me or you respectively, except we want to keep generalizing thereby not letting the truth stand on it own objectively.

As for me this my reference :

Mark 4:31 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:
Mark 4:32 But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.

Jesus made this statement about 2000 years ago before he was crucified.
2000 years have pass now, Google it.
Which herb(religion) is currently the greatest in the world?
You will discover that it is Christianity.

How did Jesus knew that this will happen?
Because he is God.

No mere human can ever, ever, ever, ever...

..make that kind of prediction.

LordReed:
Really? Well good for you. Me on the other hand will not trust someone on a topic they have not previously shown accuracy in simply because they showed accuracy in a different topic. I tend to check things up and see how accurate they are. For me that kind of "blind" trust is what leads to being scammed and I don't want to be scammed.

While you are satisfied with the accuracy of biblical prophecy ( a highly debatable point but that's for another day) and are willing to trust what it says about every other thing, I on the other hand have not found the Bible to be accurate enough to describe this reality around us so I cannot believe what it has to say about some other realm nobody has seen or can consistently describe.

This is an example of what that kind of "blind" trust can lead to: https://people.com/crime/inside-word-of-life-christian-church-cult-murder-new-york/

and you think there are no blind trust in atheism also?
I mean, are there no atheists that don't misunderstand atheism too?

HellVictorinho4:
I never said I was sure about reincarnation.

As for surfaces....., what do you call the top of your skin for example?

skin surface?

LordReed:
So if a person can predict football scores with accuracy, if he tells you there's a pink unicorn floating between the moon and the earth you would believe he was accurate on a different subject?

If there is any past record that shows that his predictions were consistently true, why then should i doubt.

I will simply say Baba carry on jo

LordReed:
It is not a question of ability/inability. If it was I would never have been a believer at all. BTW that excuse holds no water, there are many people who are believers who don't understand a tenth of what I knew as a believer.

In any way, a lot of people believe not because they know. They believe because they were groomed by their parents from childhood to believe so
That is the idea of salvation, it makes it totally free for everyone who believe

LordReed:
How do you know what the Bible said about life after death is correct?

simple!

Consistency of prophesies written in the bible.

It becomes mysterious when someone predicts a thing and that thing comes to pass.
Where did he get the power to explore the future from?

The same person now says when i die he will resurrect me back to life. that is an offer, free offer. On the condition that i believe that's all.

Now, i look at it.
Believing does not take anything from me, i have nothing to loose.
I'm not in a position to argue that you are lying sir, because I'm not spirit, i don't have supernatural powers.(remember the identity principle: if you do not know the identity of anything you cannot say anything categorically about it)

So, i do not know whether sporits exist so i cannot argue, all i can argue is the physical.

But seeing that his prophecies were consistent, obviously he has supernatural powers that is capable of fulfilling his promise.

I look at life
Life is beautiful and worth living again and again.
If mere believing will ensure that i live again after i die according to the supernatural power i have seen in him, then i will be most stupid to continue doubting since i have nothing to loose by believing.

So I believe

What have i done?
I have just applied simple wisdom

LordReed:
Wrong. I was a believer before I became an atheist.

it is still your inability to remain a believer, perhaps there were things you didn't understand as a believer

HellVictorinho4:
You started by sounding sure then ended by saying whether this or that, anything after death will justify.


You spoke like there's anything like God's plan because of Bible quotes with no proof of verifiability.

Furthermore, the justification after death is impossible since there's nothing after death that justifies it.


In fact,you have failed to define the spirit realm.

You have also failed to state how a spirit can exist.


I know a spirit is meant to be a living possessor of certain characteristics which never includes a surface.



But that's impossible because a living possessor must also possess a surface.


A surface is required for a non-living possessor or some other living possessor to have direct contact with it.

In other words,if something is alive ,it must have a surface where another living possessor or a non-living possessor can have direct contact.


The direct contact with this or that living possessor or non-posssessor anyhow possible has to show an awareness or exposure by chance.


So,if a person dies,does it mean there's a transformation into a different sort of living possessor?

Well, ageing has to do with a breakdown which is sometimes required for a transformation of something but the question is what breaks down here?


So, you want to know what it means to be dead while alive or dead...... that's not really possible.


You can't know what it means to know nothing while you know something .

You can't know what it means to know nothing even when you don't know anything..... because if you don't know anything , you won't know you don't know anything.


But if you know something, you would know you know something.


You would know you know something because knowing is the state in which a drive or drives are accidentally manifested when there's direct contact between surfaces.


The specific drive starts and ends by chance .....it might last for as long as knowing remains...it might not.


The drive is what causes you to move or remain stationary in order to show that you know that you know something but you might not really be able to show that you know anything specific.


You know that you know means you experience the state of your drive being accidentally manifested or formed as something without a surface or as the message being passed across through a behavior and such message might be this or that.


You experience the state means your existence as a combination involves you moving or remaining stationary to show there's a message to be considered by some other living possessor.....as this or that.

If the drive ends while the knowing remains, another must replace it.

In fact, when you're dead, you won't know you're dead except death is not the end of you as a living possessor.


You can't know when you cease to know your environment.


When death means you cease to know your environment,then you can't know where you are as the dead.


If you can't know where you are,then you can't know you are.


Knowing that you are also means knowing how you are which is someone with a phone at least.

Knowing you're someone with a phone is impossible if you don't know where any phone is.


So,if there's a transformation, what's transforming?


Is it the state in which a drive or drives are accidentally manifested or formed?


Is it the surfaces?


A specific living possessor possesses both the state and the surfaces.


The identity is also the combination of the state and the surfaces.


If the surfaces breaking down means those drives would stop showing LordReed, there would never be the EXACT LordReed you witnessed on Nairaland ever again.


But if there is a pattern of drives to be manifested as the drives of LordReed no matter what happens to the surfaces involved ,then LordReed would surely remain on Earth as LordReed even if it means re-incarnating.

you see now, you already have some school of thought perhaps you have been reading some books, not that they only come from your personal intuition and experiences.

So is mine!
I have been reading bible,that's how i know that LordReed will die in the spirit.

Now, if i want to debunk to you about this surface thing and recarnation you just said(what I'm not ready to do because i don't know anything about the book you have read to arrive at it ), then i must read the book you have read first. Otherwise, I have no business trying to convince you.
The same thing applies : if you want to tell me that LordReed will not go into a spirit realm when he dies, then you have to read the bible first to see what i saw before arriving that LordReed will die in the spirit.Then you will be in a better position to debunk my point

HellVictorinho4:
The onus is on you to state how he can exist after death or after ceasing to exist.

Atheism is inability to believe right?

You know why it is inability to believe?
Because it is as a result of inability to read, and i wouldn't blame you people.

For you to read you have to first of all condition your mind by being introduced to the basics. It's like an adult who never studied science from childhood, then you give him advanced science textbook to read, he will not be able to read it, that's how religious books are

Infact, religious books are even more complex

You ask intelligent questions

HellVictorinho4:
You said LordReed will still die as an atheist.

Yes!
And this death will only occur in the spirit realm after his death

Won't you die as a theist?

ofcourse i will die. But i will not die in the spirit realm like LordReed

Would LordReed die the last theist on Earth?

atheists are giving birth to children like everyone else, so more atheists will come up

Those theists that will succeed you won't be theists just because any God wants it like that neither would the existence of atheists after Reed be the plan of any God.

God's plan is that he gives everyone options to choose. You can either choose to be believer or a Non believer like atheists.

Deuteronomy 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

So, what are you celebrating?

that i choosed life.

But whether that life exist or not.
Whether God exist or not .
Where LordReel will die or not, will only be justified after we die.