 Christianity Etc › Re: The Trinity And Identity Of God by Perfectbeing(m): 12:30pm On Jul 29, 2018 |
Perfectbeing:
Is Jesus God or not?
Ride down with me.
John 1:1 KJV says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
But in the Bible of some folks it says.
NWT, “In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.”
The heated argument that follows is almost never productive. We won't waste your time wrestling with Greek grammar or article neither of us understands.
So we'll just go further to VS 3.
John 1:3, “All things came into being by Him [the Word], and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being
The NWT translation is virtually the same here.
“All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence
The test begins..
Please I beseech you, before you argue, try following it slowly and carefully. Do the steps yourself too..
1. Take out a piece of paper and draw a large box. This box represents everything that exists. Title the box "everything that exists.
2. Run a line right through the middle of the box, dividing everything that exists into two categories.
3. On the left side of the divided box write “all things that never came into being,” that is, all things that exist but was never created.
4. What goes into this left side of our box? "God right? He exists but was never created right? God is the only thing that exists that has never been created. God alone is eternal and uncreated. Put the word “God” in the left-hand side of your box.
Now we're through with the left hand side for now. Let's go to the right side of our box.
5. Label the right side of the box “all things that came into being,” that is, all created things.
6. Write "all created things there."
Everything in this box was created through or by Jesus, according to verse three. You understands that right?
7. Now draw an arrow to the right side of the box and label it “created through Jesus” outside the box for future reference.
Having done that, take a moment to understand how your illustration is structured. The larger box includes everything there is, was, or ever will be. The left side of the box contains everything that exists but was not created (God). The right hand contains everything that exists and was created (all created things). Each particular existent falls into one of two categories: created or not created.
Now it is either a thing was created or it wasn’t created- there is no third option. Either a thing is at the left or at the right. There's no middle or outside.
And also,
According to the law of noncontradiction, a thing can’t be both created and not created. Any particular thing has to be either one or the other. Not both. It’s very simple
OK, we've established these two laws. Take a coin (or anything) . Assuming the coin is Jesus place him in the category where He belongs. left or right.
Now as a witnesses (or as some people claim, freethinkers) your first instinct will be to place Jesus in the category of “all things that came into being” because that’s what your theology says. The teaching of Arius in the early fourth century, says there was a time “when the Word was not.” Jesus was the first created being and everything else was created by Jehovah through Jesus..
But John 1:3 doesn’t allow that option. Look at the wording carefully. John (NWT) says,
“All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into existence ”
John says the same thing two different ways for emphasis and clarity: everything that ever came into being owes its existence to Jesus, who caused it all to happen.. If Jesus caused all created things to come into existence, then He must have existed before all created things came into existence . Therefore, the Word could not have been created..
In other words, if Jesus created everything that has come into being, and Jesus also came into being (as you guys contend), then Jesus created Himself. He would have to exist as Creator before He existed as a created thing, which is absurd. That's breaking the law of noncontradiction above (Jesus cannot be both created and not created) . Therefore, Jesus can’t be placed in the square labeled, “all things that came into being.”
The point is that Jesus is existing before the creation of "all" things that ever came into being. So, the coin can’t be placed on the right..
At this point you may want to place Jesus somewhere on the paper outside the larger box. But, as we’ve seen, you can’t do that. there’s no “place” outside to put Him.
Everything goes on one side of the larger box or the other.
If Jesus can’t be placed on the right side with created things, then He must go on the left with uncreated things, identifying Jesus as the uncreated Creator. Jesus is God.. Some of you might want to say, "Wait a minute, Perfectbeing. You didn’t read the verse carefully. You missed something in the text. Notice the phrase ‘apart from Him.’ The apostle John excludes Jesus from the count in this verse. If you said, ‘Apart from Johnny, the whole family is going to the zoo’ you wouldn’t mean that Johnny wasn’t part of the family, just that he wasn’t included in the count. Every member of the family is going to zoo with the exception of Johnny. In the same way, every created thing was created by Jesus with the exception of Jesus Himself. Jehovah created Jesus first, then Jesus created everything else.” Now that sounds smart doesn't it? But you're the one that didn't the verse carefully. Note that with this claim, you're replacing “apart from Him” with the phrase “excluding Jesus.” According to you they are synonymous. In other words what you just said was, (Replacing "apart from" with "with the exception of Jesus. The verse then looks like this) “with the exception of Jesus nothing came into being that has come into being " The reconstructed phrase is nearly nonsense. What it actually means, is that Jesus is the only created thing that exists. Read it again and see for yourself. Obviously, the phrase “apart from Jesus” can’t mean “with the exception of Jesus.” These phrases are not synonymous. “Apart from Him” means something entirely different. It’s the same as saying, “Apart from me you’ll never get to Lagos. I’ve got the car.” The statement clearly means"apart from me, you can't go to Lagos. Why? Because I have the car (assuming there's no other way to Lagos but the car. "Apart from Jesus nothing came into being that has come into being. Why? Because Jesus is the Creator. He is God. That makes perfect sense in the context.. Another example will be "I am the way, the truth, and the life. Apart from me no one can see the father ". The statement doesn't mean "except Jesus, no one else can see the father. But rather it means "apart from Jesus no one can see the father. Why? Because, he's the only way to the Father.. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The Trinity And Identity Of God by Perfectbeing(m): 12:04pm On Jul 29, 2018 |
this 
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| Christianity Etc › Re: The Trinity And Identity Of God by Perfectbeing(m): 12:03pm On Jul 29, 2018 |
this.. 
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| Christianity Etc › Re: The Trinity And Identity Of God by Perfectbeing(m): 11:59am On Jul 29, 2018 |
Perfectbeing:
Is Jesus God or not?
Ride down with me.
John 1:1 KJV says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
But in the Bible of some folks it says.
NWT, “In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.”
The heated argument that follows is almost never productive. We won't waste your time wrestling with Greek grammar or article neither of us understands.
So we'll just go further to VS 3.
John 1:3, “All things came into being by Him [the Word], and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being
The NWT translation is virtually the same here.
“All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence
The test begins..
Please I beseech you, before you argue, try following it slowly and carefully. Do the steps yourself too..
1. Take out a piece of paper and draw a large box. This box represents everything that exists. Title the box "everything that exists.
2. Run a line right through the middle of the box, dividing everything that exists into two categories.
3. On the left side of the divided box write “all things that never came into being,” that is, all things that exist but was never created.
4. What goes into this left side of our box? "God right? He exists but was never created right? God is the only thing that exists that has never been created. God alone is eternal and uncreated. Put the word “God” in the left-hand side of your box.
Now we're through with the left hand side for now. Let's go to the right side of our box.
5. Label the right side of the box “all things that came into being,” that is, all created things.
6. Write "all created things there."
Everything in this box was created through or by Jesus, according to verse three. You understands that right?
7. Now draw an arrow to the right side of the box and label it “created through Jesus” outside the box for future reference.
Having done that, take a moment to understand how your illustration is structured. The larger box includes everything there is, was, or ever will be. The left side of the box contains everything that exists but was not created (God). The right hand contains everything that exists and was created (all created things). Each particular existent falls into one of two categories: created or not created.
Now it is either a thing was created or it wasn’t created- there is no third option. Either a thing is at the left or at the right. There's no middle or outside.
And also,
According to the law of noncontradiction, a thing can’t be both created and not created. Any particular thing has to be either one or the other. Not both. It’s very simple
OK, we've established these two laws. Take a coin (or anything) . Assuming the coin is Jesus place him in the category where He belongs. left or right.
Now as a witnesses (or as some people claim, freethinkers) your first instinct will be to place Jesus in the category of “all things that came into being” because that’s what your theology says. The teaching of Arius in the early fourth century, says there was a time “when the Word was not.” Jesus was the first created being and everything else was created by Jehovah through Jesus..
But John 1:3 doesn’t allow that option. Look at the wording carefully. John (NWT) says,
“All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into existence ”
John says the same thing two different ways for emphasis and clarity: everything that ever came into being owes its existence to Jesus, who caused it all to happen.. If Jesus caused all created things to come into existence, then He must have existed before all created things came into existence . Therefore, the Word could not have been created..
In other words, if Jesus created everything that has come into being, and Jesus also came into being (as you guys contend), then Jesus created Himself. He would have to exist as Creator before He existed as a created thing, which is absurd. That's breaking the law of noncontradiction above (Jesus cannot be both created and not created) . Therefore, Jesus can’t be placed in the square labeled, “all things that came into being.”
The point is that Jesus is existing before the creation of "all" things that ever came into being. So, the coin can’t be placed on the right..
At this point you may want to place Jesus somewhere on the paper outside the larger box. But, as we’ve seen, you can’t do that. there’s no “place” outside to put Him.
Everything goes on one side of the larger box or the other.
If Jesus can’t be placed on the right side with created things, then He must go on the left with uncreated things, identifying Jesus as the uncreated Creator. Jesus is God.. Your diagram should be something like this 
|
| Christianity Etc › Re: The Trinity And Identity Of God by Perfectbeing(m): 11:56am On Jul 29, 2018 |
Is Jesus God or not?
Ride down with me.
John 1:1 KJV says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
But in the Bible of some folks it says.
NWT, “In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.”
The heated argument that follows is almost never productive. We won't waste your time wrestling with Greek grammar or article neither of us understands.
So we'll just go further to VS 3.
John 1:3, “All things came into being by Him [the Word], and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being
The NWT translation is virtually the same here.
“All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence
The test begins..
Please I beseech you, before you argue, try following it slowly and carefully. Do the steps yourself too..
1. Take out a piece of paper and draw a large box. This box represents everything that exists. Title the box "everything that exists.
2. Run a line right through the middle of the box, dividing everything that exists into two categories.
3. On the left side of the divided box write “all things that never came into being,” that is, all things that exist but was never created.
4. What goes into this left side of our box? "God right? He exists but was never created right? God is the only thing that exists that has never been created. God alone is eternal and uncreated. Put the word “God” in the left-hand side of your box.
Now we're through with the left hand side for now. Let's go to the right side of our box.
5. Label the right side of the box “all things that came into being,” that is, all created things.
6. Write "all created things there."
Everything in this box was created through or by Jesus, according to verse three. You understands that right?
7. Now draw an arrow to the right side of the box and label it “created through Jesus” outside the box for future reference.
Having done that, take a moment to understand how your illustration is structured. The larger box includes everything there is, was, or ever will be. The left side of the box contains everything that exists but was not created (God). The right hand contains everything that exists and was created (all created things). Each particular existent falls into one of two categories: created or not created.
Now it is either a thing was created or it wasn’t created- there is no third option. Either a thing is at the left or at the right. There's no middle or outside.
And also,
According to the law of noncontradiction, a thing can’t be both created and not created. Any particular thing has to be either one or the other. Not both. It’s very simple
OK, we've established these two laws. Take a coin (or anything) . Assuming the coin is Jesus place him in the category where He belongs. left or right.
Now as a witnesses (or as some people claim, freethinkers) your first instinct will be to place Jesus in the category of “all things that came into being” because that’s what your theology says. The teaching of Arius in the early fourth century, says there was a time “when the Word was not.” Jesus was the first created being and everything else was created by Jehovah through Jesus..
But John 1:3 doesn’t allow that option. Look at the wording carefully. John (NWT) says,
“All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into existence ”
John says the same thing two different ways for emphasis and clarity: everything that ever came into being owes its existence to Jesus, who caused it all to happen.. If Jesus caused all created things to come into existence, then He must have existed before all created things came into existence . Therefore, the Word could not have been created..
In other words, if Jesus created everything that has come into being, and Jesus also came into being (as you guys contend), then Jesus created Himself. He would have to exist as Creator before He existed as a created thing, which is absurd. That's breaking the law of noncontradiction above (Jesus cannot be both created and not created) . Therefore, Jesus can’t be placed in the square labeled, “all things that came into being.”
The point is that Jesus is existing before the creation of "all" things that ever came into being. So, the coin can’t be placed on the right..
At this point you may want to place Jesus somewhere on the paper outside the larger box. But, as we’ve seen, you can’t do that. there’s no “place” outside to put Him.
Everything goes on one side of the larger box or the other.
If Jesus can’t be placed on the right side with created things, then He must go on the left with uncreated things, identifying Jesus as the uncreated Creator. Jesus is God.. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The Trinity And Identity Of God by Perfectbeing(m): 9:32am On Jul 29, 2018*. Modified: 9:59am On Jul 29, 2018 |
[quote author=Maamin post=69797563][/quote] |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The Trinity And Identity Of God by Perfectbeing(m): 9:27am On Jul 29, 2018 |
TimeMachine:
I have experienced the State of Being God, I do not believe in anything I can not proof. There is Divine Creator, and I am a fractal of it, so are you, so are the Trees and all of Created and Uncreated Realities but you are yet to experience it, and may never experience it until you let go of believe and faith and really take the narrow path which is Individualism via hardcore Scientific Research beyond the boundaries of Physical Reality. You need the Bible, but the old testament. It is a great recording also mixed up in a way, but it is a great guide as you progress beyond the surface.
Divine Creator is not religious, neither is it a Person. It is the Source and Cause of all that there is, and we are the Conscious aspect of It.
I do not write this, because I read it somewhere, I write my very experience beyond the veil. Do not believe me, just follow your intuition for nothing but Scientifically proven facts, and it will lead you directly to Divine Realities of Intelligence Infinity. It is an awesome world. Well done sir. This is indeed, deeper than the bottles pit itself. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The Trinity And Identity Of God by Perfectbeing(m): 8:33am On Jul 29, 2018 |
TimeMachine:
Ye Are Gods, and Children of Most High God. There are billions if not trillions of Gods, some are Gods in Amnesia, example Humans. The Purpose of Life is to realize and experience yourself as God, not just reading about it, but seeing that all things are powered by the only force in the Universe called Spirit. The mesoscopic coherency within all spectra will lead to a startling understanding that we are one being, split into fractals with individual ego. We are frequency beings of resonance made of light, our bodies are made of light, and so is everything, cos this is a simulated reality.
Creator needed to learn more, about itself and play Games to avoid burden, then fission of sound current occurred with Life being the consciousness aspect of the Creator. We are one with the Space, but we are the conscious part of Earth itself, we are the living conscious Earth.
The reason for the confusion is because our minds are taken away from where we live and placed on Heaven always, well, find out which Planet that Heaven is located, and the specific location within that Planet that Heaven is hosted. If the Bible does not give specific answers, then your best efforts should be put into Science, Quantum Cosmology and Solid State Physics will be a good start. But you will go beyond that to really know what God is.
The languages of our Grandfathers were not advanced, so there was need to use parables, but today, English Language and Science as reached the level that we can understand Life and God, except we choose to hang on ancient parables and not use the wealth of knowledge available online to decode the matrix and the Programmers of Reality.
This is a Simulated Reality, and the programmers are behind the scene of the mainframe, we are just Avatars as physical humans. When you understand the nature of Cosmic Spirit, which you call Sound current in Science, you will understand between you and the computer screen you are reading this, is a space teaming with lives of diverse permutation.
If you want to know God, then include Science as a tool. If Science does not validate any principle, then trash that principle. Brother, the only way to the invisible God is through Jesus, the full expression of God. And no other way. Jesus himself said "...I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Jh 14:6. Science haven't been able to fully explain some of the most basic things of life. As simple as a cell is, science cannot explain it's simplicity. How much more the complexity of God. God has and is only simplified in Jesus Christ hence the reason for the statement, "if you see me, you see the father." Using science as a means to God is like trying to get up to a building by climbing down a ladder. It will only get you what the men who tried to get to God by building the highest tower (the tower of Babel) got. Confusion! So my brother, turn away from science to find God. And turn to Christ, who is the image of the unseen God. Bless you. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The Trinity And Identity Of God by Perfectbeing(m): 12:18am On Jul 29, 2018 |
Perfectbeing:
Not only did Jesus claim to be God, but He also claimed to have the power of God . He said He has the authority to judge the nations ( Matthew 25 : 31- 46 ). He claims the authority to raise people from the dead ( John 5 : 25- 29) and to forgive sins ( Mark 2 : 5 - 7 ) — things only God can do ( I Sam 2: 6 ; Isa 43 :25 ).
Further , Jesus says He has the power to answer prayers ( John 14 : 13- 14 ), and that He will be with His followers always ( Matthew 28 : 20 ) . The Bible equates Jesus to the creator of the universe ( John 1 : 3 ), and in John 16 : 15, He says , “ All that belongs to the Father is mine . ”
Jesus says, that He is “the first and the last”
Rev 1: 17, When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last (read vs 18 in case you want to argue whether it's Jesus talking).
Jesus also claim to be first and last in Rev 22
13, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. (read vs 16, to know who's talking).
In Isaiah 44:6 God calls himself the first and the last.
Isa 44:6, "This is what the LORD says-- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God...
Both Jesus and God claim to be the first and the last. This must either mean,
1. One of them was telling a lie.
2. Both of them was telling a lie. Or,
3. Both of them are one and the same...
Pick your choice.. Look what happens in Rev 22:8, when John worshiped an angel of God. 8. I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. What did the angel say in VS 9? 9.But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!” The angel told John to worship who? God! But in Rev 5:13 and 14, the lamb and God was worshiped. Doesn't that in any way tell us that the Lamb (Jesus) and God are the same.. Doesn't that tell us that since Jesus was worshipped he must be God. Like I've said before God in his 1st commandment did not say "you shall have no other God except me and a mighty god". Rather he said "you shall have no other God except me". Doesn't that again shows that Jesus is God Himself? |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The Trinity And Identity Of God by Perfectbeing(m): 12:13am On Jul 29, 2018 |
Perfectbeing:
Not only did Jesus claim to be God, but He also claimed to have the power of God . He said He has the authority to judge the nations ( Matthew 25 : 31- 46 ). He claims the authority to raise people from the dead ( John 5 : 25- 29) and to forgive sins ( Mark 2 : 5 - 7 ) — things only God can do ( I Sam 2: 6 ; Isa 43 :25 ).
Further , Jesus says He has the power to answer prayers ( John 14 : 13- 14 ), and that He will be with His followers always ( Matthew 28 : 20 ) . The Bible equates Jesus to the creator of the universe ( John 1 : 3 ), and in John 16 : 15, He says , “ All that belongs to the Father is mine . ”
Jesus says, that He is “the first and the last”
Rev 1: 17, When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last (read vs 18 in case you want to argue whether it's Jesus talking).
Jesus also claim to be first and last in Rev 22
13, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. (read vs 16, to know who's talking).
In Isaiah 44:6 God calls himself the first and the last.
Isa 44:6, "This is what the LORD says-- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God...
Both Jesus and God claim to be the first and the last. This must either mean,
1. One of them was telling a lie.
2. Both of them was telling a lie. Or,
3. Both of them are one and the same...
Pick your choice.. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The Trinity And Identity Of God by Perfectbeing(m): 11:51pm On Jul 28, 2018 |
Maamin:
The problem lies in making the father Co equal to the Son He beget...the funny thing is that the Father is so unique that there is none like him. He can't be sqweezed into a 3=1 confinement of human being. He is way more than that yet he is but one and there is none like him.
Isaiah 40:18 To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?.
Isaiah 40:25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.
Isaiah 46:5 To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?
That is how unique God the father is. "The problem lies in making the father Co equal with the son he beget." Tomorrow we'll talk about whether the Father and the Son are one or not. And when we're done you yourself will give me the answer.. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The Trinity And Identity Of God by Perfectbeing(m): 11:47pm On Jul 28, 2018 |
Maamin:
I don't have issues, it is triniterians that have the issues with
God Almighty the creator being the father of Jesus.  By "father of Jesus", do you mean "creator of Jesus? " |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The Trinity And Identity Of God by Perfectbeing(m): 11:42pm On Jul 28, 2018 |
OneJ:
Maamim, these Trinity peddlers will keep twisting & distorting the scriptures for their own ends. With out such, the carpet would be pulled off their feet sharp sharp..
It's so obvious that their heart is already foreclosed to the truth.
" IT IS CLEAR THAT THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE GOD HIMSELF , who put everything under Christ". 1 Cor15:27.
The Lamb was given access to the throne by the One who owns the throne, his Father,Jehovah ( Yahweh.).
"For you (the Father) granted him (Jesus) authority over all people that he (Jesus) might give eternal life to all those you(the Father) have given him(Jesus)". John 17:2.
The Lamb is addressed as Prince (Isaiah 9:6) appointed heir (Hebrew 1:1,2). Were such titles ever addressed to Almighty God at anytime? No !! Obviously, the Lamb is a subordinate.
When a man lies to himself, his only redemption is to speak the truth to himself.
Shalom aleikhem.
CC :
perfectbeing
mutteylaff Not only did Jesus claim to be God, but He also claimed to have the power of God . He said He has the authority to judge the nations ( Matthew 25 : 31- 46 ). He claims the authority to raise people from the dead ( John 5 : 25- 29) and to forgive sins ( Mark 2 : 5 - 7 ) — things only God can do ( I Sam 2: 6 ; Isa 43 :25 ). Further , Jesus says He has the power to answer prayers ( John 14 : 13- 14 ), and that He will be with His followers always ( Matthew 28 : 20 ) . The Bible equates Jesus to the creator of the universe ( John 1 : 3 ), and in John 16 : 15, He says , “ All that belongs to the Father is mine . ” Jesus says, that He is “the first and the last” Rev 1: 17, When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last (read vs 18 in case you want to argue whether it's Jesus talking). Jesus also claim to be first and last in Rev 22 13, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. (read vs 16, to know who's talking). In Isaiah 44:6 God calls himself the first and the last. Isa 44:6, "This is what the LORD says-- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God... Both Jesus and God claim to be the first and the last. This must either mean, 1. One of them was telling a lie. 2. Both of them was telling a lie. Or, 3. Both of them are one and the same... Pick your choice.. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The Trinity And Identity Of God by Perfectbeing(m): 6:20pm On Jul 27, 2018 |
MuttleyLaff:
Perfectbeing if you're keep telling
that both the Lamb and the One who sits on the throne are one and the same,
you need to make sure that what you're telling is in agreement and/or in harmony with "... father he beget a Son out of him or from him" Yes they are. Maamin, are you still having issues about God Almighty the creator being Jesus? |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The Trinity And Identity Of God by Perfectbeing(m): 6:08pm On Jul 27, 2018*. Modified: 7:21pm On Jul 27, 2018 |
Maamin:
There will be serious problem everywhere in the Bible where the word "and" appears going by that your interpretation.
Take for example that Rev. 5:13 you quoted.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Your interpretation
13 And every creature which is in heaven, that is on the earth, that is under the earth, that is such as are in the sea, that is all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, that is honour, that is glory, that is power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, that is unto the Lamb for ever that is ever.
However if you choose to replace "and" with "then" the passage looses it context completely.
There is no 1 Thess 1:12 I guess you meant to say 1:2
The fact still remains that Jesus the Son came from/out of the father. You can't pick fault now in that passage. No! You can't. I gave you just four approaches on how the word "kai" is used... There are obviously others.. Try to read according to context unless the verse seem contradicts another verse. Then you can do a proper investigation. When you see something like "Jesus our Lord and Savior.." you don't need to look for any Greek or Hebrew interpretation to tell you that the Savior and the Lord is Jesus. Also, when you see something like "Jesus and the twelve apostles.." , the context there obviously means Jesus together with his disciple and not "Jesus, that is the disciples " And one thing else, you only apply all those approaches when a passages of the Bible tends to contradict other passages. Because they actually don't.. It's either the translators got it wrong or you're the one that don't understand. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The Trinity And Identity Of God by Perfectbeing(m): 5:21pm On Jul 27, 2018 |
Maamin:
When did I make the separation?
The bible said one sit on the throne, the Lamb came forth to collect the book from the right hand of the one who sit on the throne And I keep telling you that both the lamb and the one who sits on the throne are one and the same. Just with different manifestation. Just like the man who's a father, husband, brother and son is one Man explained in four lights. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The Trinity And Identity Of God by Perfectbeing(m): 3:56pm On Jul 27, 2018*. Modified: 5:23pm On Jul 27, 2018 |
A good illustration about the "manifestations" (as Muttleylaff suggested which I think I'm going to be using now) of God is this this;
A man can be a father to his son yet, in other modes, a husband to his wife and a brother to his siblings. He could even be a son to his father. Now here we have, a father, a husband a brother and a son. Not four men but one Man.
So is the one on the throne and the lamb. Not two beings. But one |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The Trinity And Identity Of God by Perfectbeing(m): 3:39pm On Jul 27, 2018 |
Maamin:
You are rewriting your own scriptures here.....
Revelation 4 says "..one sat on the throne"
Revelation 5:6-7 says the Lamb stood in the midst of the throne, came forth and took the book from the right hand of the one that sat on the throne.
There is absolutely no need for all those theories you put up there sir! Those are not theories sir.. The original scriptures that make make up the old and New Testaments of the Bible we read today were not written in English language but in Hebrew for the Old Testament and Greek for the New Testament. Some words in the Greek could have different meanings and then requires different applications in different contexts. Since most of the early translators were not Christians but just translators, they put the meaning that made best made sense to them sometimes out of context (eg, the passage about baptising in the name the Father, son and Holy spirit that Muttleylaff explained earlier). The Greek word "kai" is an example of those words. "Kai" is a conjunction joining two words, phrases or clauses together. "Kai" could mean; "and," "then," "even", "but", "that is" etc.. Application of each of those meaning of "kai" requires different approaches (4 of which I mentioned and which you termed "my theories" . Some translators interpreted or translated "kai" wrongly (either out of ignorance or in some cases to deliberately distort it's meaning.) In my first "theory", "Kai" is translated as and as in, James and John etc. In the second one "kai" is translated to mean "then". as in, "follow me, then I'll make you fishers of men". "and" can be used cos it won't change the meaning of the words. In the 3rd and fourth, "kai" is correctly translated to mean "that is". As in "... some, pastor, that is, teachers (Eph 4:11). And in 1 Thess. 1:12, "the grace of our God, that is, the Lord Jesus Christ".. Rev 5:13 also is rightly translated as, “..To him who sits on the throne, that is, the Lamb...." I don't speak Greek or Hebrew. But I made my research to ascertain all these. I suggest you do the same.. Proper Bible interpretation can only be know if what you're reading in the Bible is correctly translated in the first place. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: WARNING: Nobody Should Do The Following During The Blood Moon Tonight. by Perfectbeing(m): 1:36pm On Jul 27, 2018 |
kekakuz:
advanced warning
please lets be very careful when we practice spiritual procedures because of power.
no body should mix palm oil and salt and grounded bitter kola and rub it all over his or her body
the walk naked to a T junction holding a Bible or a chapter of the 7 books
then read through the light a particular psalm which am too scared to mention but is the most common.
the implication is very serious even though you will achieve your innermost desires
dont say i did not warn you 1tim 4:7 Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives’ tales; rather, train yourself to be godly. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: John 3:16 by Perfectbeing(m): 1:21pm On Jul 27, 2018 |
SonofIssachar:
In the city of Chicago, one cold, dark night, a blizzard was setting in. A little boy was selling newspapers on the corner, the people were in and out of the cold. The little boy was so cold that he wasn’t trying to sell many papers. He walked up to a policeman and said, “Mister, you wouldn’t happen to know where a poor boy could find a warm place to sleep tonight would you? You see, I sleep in a box up around the corner there and down the alley and it’s awful cold in there, of a night. Sure would be nice to have a warm place to stay.”
The policeman looked down at the little boy and said, “You go down the street to that big white house and you knock on the door. When they come out the door you just say John 3:16 and they will let you in.”
So he did, he walked up the steps to the door, and knocked on the door and a lady answered. He looked up and said, “John 3:16.”
The lady said “Come on in, Son.” She took him in and she sat him down in a split bottom rocker in front of a great big old fireplace and she went off.
He sat there for a while, and thought to himself “John 3:16…. I don’t understand it, but it sure makes a cold boy warm.”
Later she came back and asked him “Are you hungry?”
He said, “Well, just a little. I haven’t eaten in a couple of days and I guess I could stand a little bit of food.” The lady took him in the kitchen and sat him down to a table full of wonderful food. He ate and ate until he couldn’t eat any more. Then he thought to himself “John 3:16… Boy, I sure don’t understand it, but it sure makes a hungry boy full.”
She took him upstairs to a bathroom to a huge bathtub filled with warm water and he sat there and soaked for a while. As he soaked, he thought to himself, “John 3:16… I sure don’t understand it, but it sure makes a dirty boy clean. You know, I’ve not had a bath, a real bath, in my whole life. The only bath I ever had was when I stood in front of that big old fire hydrant as they flushed it ou
The lady came in and got him, and took him to a room and tucked him into a big old feather bed and pulled the covers up around his neck and kissed him goodnight and turned out the lights. As he laid in the darkness and looked out the window at the snow coming down on that cold night he thought to himself, “John 3:16… I don’t understand it, but it sure makes a tired boy rested.”
The next morning she came back up and took him down again to that same big table full of food. After he ate she took him back to that same big old split bottom rocker in front of the fireplace and she took a big old Bible and sat down in front of him and she looked up at and she asked “Do you understand John 3:16?”
He said, “No, Ma’am, I don’t. The first time I ever heard it was last night when the policeman told me to use it.”
She opened her Bible to John 3:16, and she began to explain to him about Jesus. Right there in front of that big old fireplace he gave his heart and life to Jesus. He sat there and thought, “John 3:16. I don’t understand it, but it but it sure makes a lost boy feel safe.”
You know, I have to confess I don’t understand it either, how God would be willing to send His Son to die for me, and how Jesus would agree to do such a thing. I don’t understand it either, but it sure does make Life worth living.
Meditation: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. – John 3:16-18
You will succeed in Jesus Name!
Also read:
https://daily-dew.com/purpose-sent-for-propitiation/
https://daily-dew.com/the-secret-of-the-wealth-of-king-solomon-final/
https://daily-dew.com/how-to-know-for-sure-you-are-going-to-heaven/ Awesome illustration. Kudos |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The Blood Moon, Tongues And Signs Of The Last Days by Perfectbeing(m): 1:01pm On Jul 27, 2018 |
pressplay411:
The Eclipse is all over the news, between 7pm - 10pm. They are calling it Blood Eclipse. I believe its going to be very significant for the Church. Another Pentecost perhaps. But we have to be yielded in the Holyspirit to connect.
Please Do not judge the unworthy vessel I am, rather let's share this across our pastors until it gets all over the Body of Christ, locally and globally.
I do not know what is coming that's why i said Perhaps. And by pentecost I simply meant Revival/Reactivation. The one we've been anticipating.
Revelations 2:17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hiddenmanna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.” ’
I've never been this excited... And we should all be.
Truly we are a Chosen Generation. I Tim 4:7 Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales; rather, train yourself to be godly.. Don't be like the Pharisees who read signs to everything around them and leave the things that matters. We believers are admonished in Heb 12:2 to look up Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. Not up to an eclipse that's happening around 7pm-10pm Preach the message of the blood of Christ not the message of a blood moon that doesn't mean anything. The hidden mystery or manna of God we're promised has been revealed in the person of Jesus Christ. It is known only to those of us who receive it. And I'm sure you've received it. So my friend, I admonish you again to look up to Jesus and not any hidden mystery in the moon. Bless you. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The Trinity And Identity Of God by Perfectbeing(m): 12:26pm On Jul 27, 2018 |
Maamin:
The one sitted on the throne there is the Father. Maamin said there that, the one on the throne is the Father, separating him from the lamb. Or was I getting him wrong? Probably I was. If I was accept my apologies.. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The Trinity And Identity Of God by Perfectbeing(m): 12:23pm On Jul 27, 2018 |
Perfectbeing:
The one sitted on the throne and the lamb is the same. Both one and the same. Not different from each other. In Acts 7:55–56; Romans 8:34; Ephesians 1:20; Colossians 3:1, Jesus (the lamb that was slain) was said to be SITTED at the right hand of the Father. The phrase, "God’s right hand" as some of us said earlier, is used throughout Scripture to indicate His power and authority and sovereignty. Jesus is sitted at this place of power and of authority and of sovereignty with God. Doesn't that tell us that Jesus and God are both the the same and not different, since God won't share his glory with any one.
That being said, I want to introduce us to the Greek word "kai". Please ride down with me.
"Kai" is a Greek word that is used to connect two words, phrases or clauses together, who function at the same level. With this function it is often called a coordinating conjuntion.
Things to note about the word "kai"
1. When Kai joins words or phrases together, it is simple enough and similar to English word "and".
E.g; James and John, Paul and Silas.
2 When Kai joins clauses and sentences, it is more complicated. Kai can function like an English "then" as in Matt 4:19 (Follow me, then
I will make you fishers of men). The English "and" can function the same way as in 'follow me and I will make you fishers of men.
3. When two plural nouns are connected by "kai" as in Ephesians 4:11, ...and some, pastors and teachers; The first noun, pastors, and the second noun, teachers are the same. So "teachers" is a further description of "pastors", not a separate category of individuals. This Greek construction means "pastors who are teachers", or "pastor - teachers".
4. When two SINGULAR nouns are connected by "kai", and the FIRST noun is ARTICILAR( has the article), and the SECOND is ANARTHROUS (does not have the article), the second noun is a FURTHER DESCRIPTION of the first noun.
Examples
a. Thess. 1:12, the KJV reads "the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ". God "theos" here is articular and Christ "christou" is anarthrous. Both are the same case, and therefore should read "the grace of Jesus Christ, our God and Lord".
b. Titus 2:13, the KJV reads "the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ". God "theos" here is articular, and Christ "christou" is anarthrous. Both nouns are in the same case, and therefore should read "our great God and Savior Jesus Christ". The number 4 above brings us back the "one the throne and the lamb... Rev 7:10, And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” God "theos" here is articular, and "the lamb" is anarthrous. The lamb is a further description of the one who sits on the throne and should therefore read as "...salvation belongs to the lamb our God, who sits on the throne... Rev 5:13 …“To him who sits on the throne [God] (articular) and to the Lamb (anarthtous)be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!” should read ".. to the lamb our God, who sits on the throne be praise and honor and glory and power... Rev21:22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple should therefore be "..because the Lord Almighty, who is the lamb are it's temple.. Also read Rev 11:15.. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The Trinity And Identity Of God by Perfectbeing(m): 12:00pm On Jul 27, 2018 |
MuttleyLaff:
Do you accept this, and agree to or with this Perfectbeing? Are we still separating the lamb from the Father? |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The Trinity And Identity Of God by Perfectbeing(m): 11:44am On Jul 27, 2018 |
Maamin:
The one sitted on the throne there is the Father. The one sitted on the throne and the lamb is the same. Both one and the same. Not different from each other. In Acts 7:55–56; Romans 8:34; Ephesians 1:20; Colossians 3:1, Jesus (the lamb that was slain) was said to be SITTED at the right hand of the Father. The phrase, "God’s right hand" as some of us said earlier, is used throughout Scripture to indicate His power and authority and sovereignty. Jesus is sitted at this place of power and of authority and of sovereignty with God. Doesn't that tell us that Jesus and God are both the the same and not different, since God won't share his glory with any one. That being said, I want to introduce us to the Greek word "kai". Please ride down with me. "Kai" is a Greek word that is used to connect two words, phrases or clauses together, who function at the same level. With this function it is often called a coordinating conjuntion. Things to note about the word "kai" 1. When Kai joins words or phrases together, it is simple enough and similar to English word "and". E.g; James and John, Paul and Silas. 2 When Kai joins clauses and sentences, it is more complicated. Kai can function like an English "then" as in Matt 4:19 (Follow me, then I will make you fishers of men). The English "and" can function the same way as in 'follow me and I will make you fishers of men. 3. When two plural nouns are connected by "kai" as in Ephesians 4:11, ...and some, pastors and teachers; The first noun, pastors, and the second noun, teachers are the same. So "teachers" is a further description of "pastors", not a separate category of individuals. This Greek construction means "pastors who are teachers", or "pastor - teachers". 4. When two SINGULAR nouns are connected by "kai", and the FIRST noun is ARTICILAR( has the article), and the SECOND is ANARTHROUS (does not have the article), the second noun is a FURTHER DESCRIPTION of the first noun. Examples a. Thess. 1:12, the KJV reads "the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ". God "theos" here is articular and Christ "christou" is anarthrous. Both are the same case, and therefore should read "the grace of Jesus Christ, our God and Lord". b. Titus 2:13, the KJV reads "the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ". God "theos" here is articular, and Christ "christou" is anarthrous. Both nouns are in the same case, and therefore should read "our great God and Savior Jesus Christ". |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The Trinity And Identity Of God by Perfectbeing(m): 12:01am On Jul 27, 2018 |
Perfectbeing:
And I did.
Rev 5:6; Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
The lamb stood at the center of the throne. He and the throne is encircled by the the living creatures and the elders. (KJV puts it that "...in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain" English wise they mean the same thing)
And also,
Didn't the beast joined the rest of the creatures in heaven to worship the lamb and the one sitted on the throne in 5:13? Wait a minute.. Are we still having this talk about the two thrones? I thought I myself and Muttleylaff have explained earlier that the two thrones are one? It seems you still don't understand the fact that the whole book of Revelations is figurative and not literal. Let me show you something In Rev 8 A Star called wormwood falls to the earth. My friend I think you know what will happen if a literal star falls to the earth. Rev 12 The tail of a dragon(representing Satan) flung one third of the stars to the earth. Literally if one-third of the Star falls on earth, the earth would cease to exist (even half of a star would do a clean job ).. In Rev 6, stars also fell to the earth likened the way figs falls from fig trees (read verse 13). I can go on and on but I'm sure you might have grasp what I'm talking about... |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The Trinity And Identity Of God by Perfectbeing(m): 11:07pm On Jul 26, 2018*. Modified: 11:34pm On Jul 26, 2018 |
[quote author=Maamin post=69732794][/quote]And I did.
Rev 5:6; Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
The lamb stood at the center of the throne. He and the throne is encircled by the the living creatures and the elders. (KJV puts it that "...in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain" English wise they mean the same thing)
And also,
Didn't the beast joined the rest of the creatures in heaven to worship the lamb and the one sitted on the throne in 5:13? |
| Christianity Etc › Re: A Pastor Donates One Million Naira To A Mosque And Islamic Center In Calabar by Perfectbeing(m): 7:08pm On Jul 26, 2018 |
zionmde:
There are many questions that would follow behind.
That's not my focus, I prefer helping Children
If the person is clean, No betting, womanizing, drinking, smoking etc I will consider helping out Alright sir. Just wanted to know |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The Trinity And Identity Of God by Perfectbeing(m): 7:00pm On Jul 26, 2018 |
MuttleyLaff:
God manisfested in three Persons is seen all over the bible,
but God is not limited or restricted to three Persons.
Limited by English, isnt a good enough reason
Do your best to win full approval in God's sight, as a worker who is not ashamed of his work, one who correctly teaches the message of God's truth.
What has been going on so far, is challenging a doctrine thats trying to make and/or have trinity be a be-all and end-all of God's existence.
Thrice in bible history, was God asked what His name is
On three separate occassions, God was asked of His name
Three different people in the course of bible narrative, asked God what His name is.
God never said what it is instead asking the reason why each wanted to know what His name is
The second person that asked was told, by God that His name is impossible to understand or comprehend
Do you know what the answer was, that God gave the third and last person that asked a similar question? So sir, any advice on what I should say if I'm asked who's God? who's Jesus? and who's the Holy Spirit? I'll do my own thorough research too but I seek you opinion Sir. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The Trinity And Identity Of God by Perfectbeing(m): 6:56pm On Jul 26, 2018 |
MuttleyLaff:
God manisfested in three Persons is seen all over the bible,
but God is not limited or restricted to three Persons.
Limited by English, isnt a good enough reason
Do your best to win full approval in God's sight, as a worker who is not ashamed of his work, one who correctly teaches the message of God's truth.
What has been going on so far, is challenging a doctrine thats trying to make and/or have trinity be a be-all and end-all of God's existence.
Thrice in bible history, was God asked what His name is
On three separate occassions, God was asked of His name
Three different people in the course of bible narrative, asked God what His name is.
God never said what it is instead asking the reason why each wanted to know what His name is
The second person that asked was told, by God that His name is impossible to understand or comprehend
Do you know what the answer was, that God gave the third and last person that asked a similar question? And Sir, can you also show me the 1st 2 instances on where God was asked of His name? Thanks sir |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The Trinity And Identity Of God by Perfectbeing(m): 6:52pm On Jul 26, 2018*. Modified: 8:03pm On Jul 26, 2018 |
MuttleyLaff:
I knew you were pulling my leg and know
Yes, Moses asked two questions, by saying:
“Suppose I go to the Israelites
and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’
and they ask me, ‘What is His name?’ What should I tell them?”
God, here after, just like previous two other occasions ignored/declined saying what His name is
however He answers the second part of Moses' question
He told Moses, to say to the Israelites, that "I Am that I Am" sent him to them about liberating them from the Egyptian superpower of that time
Now the most interesting thing about "I Am that I Am" is that "I Am that I Am" is not a name.
It isnt even God's name
"I Am that I Am" is an expressive phrase,
simply addressing the second question in a telling and revealing way, whilst the first question is and was ignored
If God expresses Himself as "I Am that I Am", in order words "I will be what I will be", why limit Him to trinity?
Perfectbeing, trust me when and if I say, you arent trolling
The above quotes, were exchanges posted 3 years ago, about Matthew 28:19
I reproduced them here because the exchanges are closely connected
and similar to the " Father, Son, Holy Spirit " Trinitarian formula, you in a relaxed manner, mentioned in your comment
Maybe you dont know, maybe you arent aware, maybe you havent found out
that what we have, as bible translations, even on to today, based on the politics, based on the agenda, based on the prevailing ignorance,
based on denominational doctrine, based on the holding to the tradition of men, based on the dogma, of the day,
have and have had numerous insertions, additions and inventions to the original text made to it.
Perfectbeing, Matthew 28:19, that you paraphrased in your comment, sadly is one of such and so is a victim of deliberate bible manipulation
It is glaring that someone so desperate to preach trinity as a doctrine, went to the great length of adding to Matthew 28:19 what was not, in the first instance, originally there
Maybe the perpetrator(s) isnt familiar with Proverbs 30:6, that says:
"Do not add to his words, or He will reprimand you, and you will be found to be a liar." OK. But do you have an idea where I can get the original Bible from (maybe a shop, App or website). And also can you tell me what the original Matthew 28:19 says.. It's geninue question o.. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The Trinity And Identity Of God by Perfectbeing(m): 5:02pm On Jul 26, 2018*. Modified: 7:02pm On Jul 26, 2018 |
MuttleyLaff:
God manisfested in three Persons is seen all over the bible,
but God is not limited or restricted to three Persons.
Limited by English, isnt a good enough reason
Do your best to win full approval in God's sight, as a worker who is not ashamed of his work, one who correctly teaches the message of God's truth.
What has been going on so far, is challenging a doctrine thats trying to make and/or have trinity be a be-all and end-all of God's existence.
Thrice in bible history, was God asked what His name is
On three separate occassions, God was asked of His name
Three different people in the course of bible narrative, asked God what His name is.
God never said what it is instead asking the reason why each wanted to know what His name is
The second person that asked was told, by God that His name is impossible to understand or comprehend
Do you know what the answer was, that God gave the third and last person that asked a similar question? Sorry Sir . It looks like I'm trolling but I'm not. Jesus admonishes us to make disciples, baptizing them in name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Not Father, Son, Holy Spirit and my other limitless manifestations.. My point exactly is that any other of God's manifestations is included in this "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" |
