₦airaland Forum

MuttleyLaff:
Remember Nicodemus was a Pharisee,
and the Pharisees' idea of what the Messiah and His Kingdom is or would be, is different
Nicodemus' bone of contention is who is Jesus, is Jesus the Messiah or not
The reason for Nicodemus' clandestine and dead of the night visit, was to seek the truth, to know who Jesus is

Nicodemus had a problem with understanding the concept of regeneration
Seeing God's kingdom and entering into God's kingdom are not synonymous
They might be related but they certainly dont have the same meaning
Jesus explained what the criteria for entering into God's kingdom is (i.e. man be born of water and of the Spirit...)

As I earlier typed, born again precedes and preceded salvation
In order to receive and get the gift of salvation, you'll first, have to be born again, be regenerated, be born from above
The disciples, Nicodemus and a lot others were already born again before getting the gift of salvation
It is highly unlikely, anyone will be born again and not have or get the gift of salvation
Anyone truly born again, receives the gift of salvation

Will not only see the demonstrations & power of the kingdom of God
but ultimately will enter into the kingdom of God

Scoffers, mockers, cynics, pagans etcetera will never see anything good about the kingdom
and that's because they are not born again, are not born from above, are not spiritually rebirthed
Why you think there are atheists?
It is because regeneration has not taken place in them.

Born Again didnt publicly need to be preached by Jesus because it is a straightforward fact,
and Jesus was surprised that Nicodemus who happens to be a teacher, didnt know this
nor know that Born Again can be a prerequisite for salvation

Born Again and salvation, though are not in the same category, they nonetheless are related

Lastly, verse 13 and the rest, is trying to convince Nicodemus who is still wrestling with the thought of who Jesus really is
Jesus is telling Nicodemus not to fight the regeneration,
because salvation afterall comes from Him, following regeneration, following born again or following born from above

Jesus was talking about the same thing in verse 3,5,15 and 16.

For you to say that "seeing" and "entering" Gods kingdom are different, then you also mean to be "born again" is different from being "born of water."
Jesus couldn't having been saying different things in verse 3 and 5. Read it again.
3. verily I say unto thee, except a man be born again he cannot see kingdom of God. The pharisees have always thought that Gods kingdom was a physical kingdom, hence Nick asked in verse 4; ".. How can a man be born when he's old? Can he enter the second time into his mothers womb and be born?".

Jesus explained what he meant be being born again from verse 5 downwards.
5. " verily I say unto you except a man be born of water and of spirit , he cannot. enter the kingdom of God.
Verse 5 was a clear explanation of verse 3 and not different from verse 3.

Like I said earlier, for you to say "seeing God's kingdom is different from "entering it" in this two verses, then you must also mean that being "born again" and being "born of water and spirit" are also different as at used in both verses.

Now concerning being born again and salvation, they are also the same thing. One doesn't precede the other. For that to be true then you mean that someone can be born again and not yet have salvation. Or someone can have salvation and not yet born again.

From your definition of being born again, it means the thief and the cross wasn't born again but yet saved. Unless you want to mean the process of being born again and salvation didn't occur at the same instant (probably it had some seconds or maybe minutes space between the two to occur.)


Remember his exact words were " verily I say unto you, today thou shall be with me in paradise."
I'm sure you'd agree with me that "paradise" used in this context and "God's kingdom" are one and the same thing.

The thief had the privilege of entering God's kingdom by just one act- believe. He was saved/born again when he believed and that gave him the opportunity of entering into God's kingdom/paradise...

IDOL IN CHURCH SERVICE
1 Corinthians 10:13-14 KJV
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. [14] Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
A lot of the young generation 'christians' became actively conscious of idolatry in the church!
Though they have the knowledge(through history) of the existence and practice of the same in/by their ancestry,, ...their consciousnes, contact and even participation in/of idolatry grew by leaps and bounds in the church!
This happened as they witness and participate in strange spi-RITUALS such as; salt services, bow and arrow service, anointing oil service, the stone of David service, coconut services, praying into offerings, praying with sand from fathers compound in the village for deliverance, bathing in a stream for victory over the troubles of life, carrying about olive oil, anointed handkerchief, stickers, etc for protection or good luck; ..the list goes on!
A young lady having difficulties getting married came to our meetings. She narrated to me her ordeal with many preachers in the bid to solve her problem! Chief among her experiences was with a 'prophet' who told her to go buy a male goat, with which he would 'work for her' to get married. He instructed her specifically that the male goat must be a mature one, sniffing behind a female goat. That after his prayers with the animal, men will be sniffing around her like male goats do with female goats!
Now, this lady had never visited a native doctor in her life,...but she engaged in this act of idolatry in church!
A lady who had difficulty having children due to incessant miscarriages told me of her ordeal with many 'men of God'. The highlight of which a pastor told her to buy an egg, which after some days of 'prayers' told her to hang it in her room. That as long as the egg is hanging, the pregnancy will be retained! ....of course it didnt work!
This same pastor told someone to bring 70000naira, 7000naira, 700naira, 70naira, 7naira, 70kobo, 7kobo for prayer rituals for the fruit of the womb! This seems to have become a formula in some quarters, as I have heard of it again and again!
A lady narrated to me how she was having problems with relationship, the guys would come and go. And when a new guy came,... her pastor prayed and told her to collect her menstrual blood and use it to make stew for the new guy, ...and she did!
I can give more than 50 strange narratives here of pure idolatry acts, which I was told first hand by the victims, ..and all happened in churches, and instructed by 'men of God'!
The greek 'eidōlolatreia' traslated as "idolatry" in our opening text is a compound word comprising the greek word 'eidolon' meaning a phantom or image; and 'latreia' meaning service, homage, worship. Hence idolatry is giving the service, worship and faith due to God, to entity, image, or symbols.
The greek 'eidōlolatreia' is used four times in the New Testament, with its first mention in the book of Acts, where it contextually implies visible attention, worship, faith in, and service to images and symbols, ....ignorantly as unto God. This was a case with unbelievers.
Acts 17:16-23 KJV
Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.
[17] Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.
[18] Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.
[19] And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is ?
[20] For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.
[21] (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)
[22] Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
[23] For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD . Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
A second mention, our opening text, is a warning from the example of Israel in connection to offering in sacrifice to idols(gk- phantoms or symbols). This was a warning to believers.
1 Corinthians 10:11-14 KJV
Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
[12] Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
[13] There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
[14] Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
The third mention is specifically described as the works of the flesh;...in instructions to believers, in which we are warned against the same and encouraged to walk in the Spirit(love) to avoid it.
Galatians 5:17-20 KJV
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
[18] But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
[19] Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these ; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
[20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
And the last mention, which contextually implies the works of the flesh, is also a case of ADMONITION to believers against the same.
Colossians 3:5-7 KJV
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
[6] For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
[7] In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
Now its worth noting that in all the four usages, three times(75%) it is used in connection with LUST directly or indirectly, and in WARNINGS AND COUNSELS to believers, and one time it is used directly of pure idol worship, and involve unbelievers. See it again;
1 Corinthians 10:13-14 KJV
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. [14] Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
Here he counsels believers against yielding to the temptation of idolatry.
Galatians 5:17-20 KJV
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
[18] But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
[19] Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these ; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
[20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Here again, it is a direct manifestation of the LUST of the flesh, and believers are counselled against it.
Colossians 3:5 KJV
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Here, its is specifically equated to COVETEOUSNESS, and believers are counselled against it.
It is therefore worthy of note that the temptation or tendency to idolatry lurks within the church. And whereas the believers in the early church were cautioned against it, we in many quarters today, seem to have outgrown these cautions and therefore plunged into idolatry for convenience.
Also, it is note worthy that whereas ignorance is a good diagnosis of many cases of idolatry, as Paul pointed out;
Acts 17:16, 22-23 KJV
Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.
[22] Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
[23] For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD . Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
However, such diagnosis is primarily the case with unbelievers.
In the case of idolatry tendencies among believers, ...LUST, COVETEOUSNESS, GREED are its primary drive and feeds;...where faith, service, attention and worship meant for God and/or his word ONLY, are given to THINGS, FORMULA and RUTUALS for personal gratification.
It is my observation that, though not stated, many see the church as a "godly shrine", where as long as the name of Jesus is mentioned, ANY THING can be practised! And if it works, it becomes a doctrine and a norm. And this(sadly) is the case in many quarters, even in our many elevated pulpits.
Well, I believe strongly that this trend will not continue anymore. The TRUTH has no mentor, hence it has no allegiance to anyone or group.
Its just a matter of time,...and this time is a short one. I see a tomorrow not too far from today, and IDOLATRY in every form, measure and disguise will be TOTALLY OUT of the Nigeria churches, and africa as a whole; one stride at a time. And WHOLESOME preaching, teaching and praying, centred on the revelation knowledge of JESUS, what HE has done for us, what HE is doing in us, who we are in Him, what we have and can do IN HIM, would be considered ENOUGH!
Now, it is worthy of reiteration, that the purpose of the local church, or Christian garthering is very clear in scriptures, and emphatically so, that it is both visible to the blind and audible to the deaf!
Ecclesiastes 5:1-2 KJV
Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil.
[2] Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.
Be MORE READY TO HEAR!
Hence the house of God is primarily for hearing the word of God.
Mark 11:15-17 KJV
And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;
[16] And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.
[17] And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.
The house of God is primarily THE HOUSE OF PRAYER,...of all nations. It doesn't change purpose with locations!
Also, the purpose of ministers(ministry gifts) in the house of God is already defined, and emphatically too.
Acts 20:28 KJV
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Ephesians 4:11-12 KJV
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
[12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Hence the minister must learn to/and behave accordingly.
1 Timothy 3:15 KJV
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
There is a way to BEHAVE in the house of God, and it is the minister's responsibility to know it, and stick to it. It is not our house, hence our personal behavioural curriculum, is not welcome!
The written word is all that we have to prove and approve all we do and practise in church. And all the above mentioned "services" and practises are neither stated nor implied in the New Testament by any of its characters. Not once in the gospel, not once in Acts of the apostle, not once in the epistles.
The New Testament ministry is a spiritual one. Hence its attention, faith and communication is not in things, but in the ministry of the word and prayers.
It is faith in the word, and faith in prayers.
It is NEVER FAITH IN THINGS!
Paul's admonition should suffice.
1 Corinthians 10:13-15 KJV
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. [14] Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
[15] I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.
Selah!

Cornelius was a high-ranking soldier in the world's most powerful army at the time. Although not a Jew, he showed significant piety. So much that an angel was sent to tell him how his gifts have been recieved and prayers answered. Remember that he wasn't a Jew and was under no obligation to worship God.
The angel lauded Cornelius, but reminded him of his nature - unsaved. He urged him to send for Peter who will tell him words by which he will be saved. Had Cornelius disobeyed, he would have died unsaved. This is major.
We have people who uphold the moral standards of the Bible ("the ten commandments", recieve answers to their prayers but aren't saved. Cornelius would had been a deacon in most of our churches today.
So it's not about what you do nor the results you have. It's about whom you have believed. What did you hear that got you "saved"? A man cannot be saved without hearing the gospel.
That said, we should see the need to constantly reach out to the unsaved, knowing that they aren't only found in the pubs but in our various churches too.
No one wants to be the best sinner that went to hell. A man who fears God, lives right, receives answers to prayers and see angles will go to hell if he doesn't believe the Gospel

The Irony of a God.
They talk of a God that hates people who sins, but not a sinner
A God that is against divorce, but He distances himself from the believer when he sins.
A God that preached forgiveness with ease, but needs an asking before he gives.
They talk of a God who is unconditionally loving, but gets angry when a believer sins.
They talk of a God that gives salvation with Faith, but he takes it back when their is failure of works.
They talk of God, as being in the delusion of language
I heard of a God that keeps quiet when a believer sins, while He spoke with Adam, knowing He had sinned.
A God that says to love our enemies, but He would reject us as sons if we sin.
They mentioned a God that teaches long-suffering, yet He is not patient to give the believer a chance for change.
A loving Father who seeks the opportunity to plague the son at the slightest of mistakes.
I was told of a bee-God. He has honey in His mouth, and a sting in His tail. A compendium of good and evil.

One of the easiest ways to identify a vision, dream, revelation or message that is not from God is if it inspires fear or condemnation
A message, teaching, dream, vision or revelation that brings fear or condemnation can never be from God
Either the person never heard from God or he interpreted wrongly what he heard ,saw or read.
God can never be the author of fear. He doesn't have fear therefore cannot give it!
Fear is always of the devil
Never give room to it.
A message from God can only inspire faith, love, joy, peace , comfort and assurance!
Be a smart Christian!

MuttleyLaff:
"Jesus answered and said unto him,
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
- John 3:3

Perfectbeing, was the kingdom of God at this juncture and/or time seen or not seen?

No it wasn't..

Before I explain further I must state this.
The only way a scripture can be taught or interpreted appropriately is by using other scriptures to explain it. Our interpretation shouldn't be what we think or what a scripture should say but how it is explained from other scriptures.
Unclear scriptures should be explained from other scriptures and not with head knowledge.

In john 2:23, it was stated that people believed in Jesus when the saw his miracles. They only believed Jesus cos of his miracles not cos of who he was. Verse 24 confirms this when it said Jesus did not commit himself to them because he knew all men. He knew those that were with him only there cos of what they could get from him..

And I tell you even our dear Nicodemus was part of those people. Look what he said in John 3:2;.. we know you're a teacher from God" see his reason for that; " no man can do these miracles you do except God be with him.
He only believed God was with Jesus cos of the miracles Jesus did.

In verse 3, Jesus told him, "...Except a man is born again be cannot see the kingdom of God."

When Nick didn't quite get what Jesus meant by being born again, Jesus explained further what he meant in verse 5; .. except a man is born of water and blood he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Verse 3 and 5 are saying the same thing. Jesus interchanged "born again" with "born of water" and "see" with "enter." Seeing the kingdom of God and entering it meant the same thing in this passage..

Further explanation of "seeing/entering" the kingdom was given when Nicodemus asked in verse 9, ".. how can this be?"

Jesus explained in verse 13 that "no man hath ascended up to heaven." Meaning no man has seen/entered the kingdom of God before. No man had ever been born again or saved prior to Jesus birth or death.

And he Verse 15 and 16, he gave us the clearest picture of what be meant by being born again. ".. whosoever believe in him would not perish but have everlasting life."


Salvation was all he was talking to Nicodemus about and nothing else. Salvation which is gotten when one believe in his death and resurrection is what he was saying to Nick.

Seeing/entering into Gods kingdom is only possible when one is born again or saved.. This state of being born again is achieved only when one believes in Jesus.

I call you blessed...

paxonel:
put it this way,
The time or era after Jesus crucifixion and resurrection till this moment is the kingdom of God(the time of christianity which is the time of salvation as there was no salvation until christ resurrected).
The era before Jesus was crucified was the days of John the baptist.
Right from the days of John the baptist the kingdom of God suffereth violence(verb), and the violent(collective nown) actually took that kingdom by force.

Now, who were the violent?

The violents were actually Jesus disciples (about 5000 of them trodding Jesus for 5 loaves and 2 fishes) who later ran away the moment Jesus was captured.

All these 5000 disciples were the born again.

How do i know?

Jesus told nicodemus.
Marvel not that i say you should be born again(meaning, i want to open up and tell you what i mean by born again). John 3:7

Then he came up with this parable in

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Now, these are the elements of the parable based on how Jesus interpreted his other previous parables.

The sound of wind represent the crowd of his disciples (over 5000 of them)
Nicodemus saw these crowd of people following Jesus, he could not tell where they were coming from and where they were going to. (Remember they were going to Jerusalem where Jesus was to be crucified but nicodemus didnt even know that)
These people were the born again because Jesus concluded to nicodemus, so is every one(of that time,take note of the timing) that is born of the spirit .

And i have said, all these people of that time ran away the moment Jesus was arrested, infact peter denied him three times.
Since they all ran away, born again siezed to exist.
There is nothing like born again today, rather we have christianity today.

All these things happened in the days of John the baptist which was the transition between the old covenant and the new covenant.
I can tell you emphatically that John the baptist was the founder of that born again covenant(if there was anything like that) because John the baptist himself was born again, yet he missed the kingdom (the new covenant).
The least person in the new covenant which is you and i, is greater than John the baptist and every born again who ran away and also missed the kingdom

From your first paragraph it seems you differed salvation from being born again... Is that the case?

paxonel:
Born again simply means to become jesus disciple or follower as at the Jesus was never crucified or resurrected. At that time there was nothing like christianity, so christians saying they are born again is aberration and they are only ridicling themselves.

There is nothing like born again anymore

"Except a man is born again, he can never see the kingdom of God" - Jesus.

I want you to ponder on that.
Read the Bible if you have to and see his explanation of what born again means..

jesusjnr:
It is ok if you disagree with my own opinion of when the disciples became born-again, but going by your own explanation that also meant that no one was also truly saved before resurrection of Jesus.

And that's inclusive of those who Jesus declared to be so, such as the sinner who anointed Him, unto whom He first said, "Thy sins are forgiven" and also "...Thy faith has saved thee: go in Peace"(Lk 7:48,50).

For at the time that Jesus said that to her, He hadn't yet resurrected, so her sins were not really forgiven and she also was not truly saved at the time that Jesus Himself said this to her, until his resurrection, as that was also what Jesus came to accomplish on Earth?

Jesusjnr, what's the purpose for Jesus' death? Since according to you, man could be saved before his death..

MuttleyLaff:
I concur without any demur with the emboldened

PastorDavidAwuj, it might interest you to know that the disciples, including Nicodemus were born again before Jesus' death and resurrection.

Born again, as in the context it is used in John 3:1-7,
and in an outright or oversimplified manner, means "born from above"

Whilst the mention of "born again" seems incidental,
it actually is serious, important and worthwhile to know and understand

paxonel, you are born again
and if you permit me, I can prove to you, that you are

If people could be born again before Jesus' death like you said, then his death was a waste and his blood was shed for nothing..
He'd have just taught Nicodemus about being born again and not die.

PMB did it.

xproducer:
Indeed...

"And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified." - 1 Corinthians 2:1-2

"Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us." -Romans 8:34

He is risen, and He lives forevermore.

Amen!!

And we'll live forever with him..

kestolove95:
Make I start dey do bad bad tins 1st

Is that what the post said?

He took advantage of the fact that we don't read

I'm actually enjoying over 23 hours of light in my area. Power outtage is lasts less than 5 mins daily..

Many good men will be in hell and many bad men will be in heaven. The good men who trusted in their goodness will send themselves to hell by faith in their own goodness and unbelief in the goodness of God.
Many bad men will be in heaven because despite their sins they put faith in the blood of Jesus.
God's greatest joy is in justifying the ungodly who believes in Jesus!
God's purpose for all men is to receive salvation freely by faith in Jesus. With no condition attached
That is why many good men will perish with their goodness and many bad men will enjoy eternal life and live forever in the joy of the Lord.
God has put no distinction between any man. None ever have to deserve his grace. That's why it's grace.
He gives freely and undeservedly to all men!
Hallelujah!

For our God is a consuming fire....
There's a portion of scripture that either elicits fear or/and is used as an arsenal against one's enemies. Let us study it and see what exactly it means. Hebrews 12:29, 'For our God [is] a consuming fire.' Is this a verse about judgment? Contextual study would bail us out. Hebrews 12:26-29 'Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. And this [word], Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God [is] a consuming fire.'
Here we see God promises a 'shaking', a 'removing' to end that the things that cannot be removed may remain. What we receive is that which cannot be shaken. That which is eternal. And the reason why we have such is because God is a consuming fire. Hebrews 12:29 starts with 'For' which in the Greek, assigns a reason or explanation to a previous statement. Why have we received a kingdom that cannot be moved? The reason is, 'Our God is a consuming fire!'. So, what exactly are the things that are removed and the things that remain? We begin studying from verse 18 and we see a comparison between the Old covenant and the new. This is a prominent feature throughout the book of Hebrews.
The word, 'removing' is the exact same word for 'change' in Hebrews 7:12, 'For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law'. The things that are shaken refer to the abolishing of the Old covenant with its ordinances, rites, sacrifices etc. The things that remain refer to the New testament. Hebrews 10:9, 'Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.' What was taken away, what was shaken, was the first covenant.. the law. What remained, what was established was the second.. the New Covenant.
Why did God take the law away? Hebrews 8:7-8, 'For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:'. The word 'faultless' is rendered more accurately as 'not fault finding'.
In other words, 'If the law wasn't fault finding, there was no need for the second'. 'For finding fault with them (people) God said he'd make a new covenant. In this New Covenant, sins aren't accounted or remembered. Glory! What was shaken? The old, fault-finding covenant! What remains that we have received for eternity? The New 'non-accounting sins' testament! Who is responsible for this? God, who is a consuming fire! So, what was consumed? People? Enemies? No! The law was consumed!
Therefore, when we read or hear that 'our God is a consuming fire', we aren't to be taken with fear! We are to rejoice! He consumed the sin-imputing, death-prospering law! What fiery love! Our God is a consuming fire! Glory

Ihedinobi3:
Your words are good, my friend, very good indeed. It is good to recognize that these debates are not able to change any heart. That recognition is critical to dealing with unbelievers (and even believers) of all kinds.

I don't debate with them for their sake. While I genuinely hope that they will repent and turn to the Lord and be saved, my engagement with them is not primarily to bring that about. Rather, I am seeking to protect vulnerable believers from them. Through them, the devil is constantly attacking many immature believers seeking to further weaken their faith and cause them to apostatize as a number of these atheists here in their own turn did or at least to force them to become lukewarm rather than zealous for Christ (I know a few people this may have happened to as well).

Christian apologetics is a spiritual gift as well and it is not one that I embraced easily. I am by nature very impatient person with whatever I consider unreasonableness. So, I didn't want to be an apologist. Thankfully too, it is only a secondary gift in my case. I am primarily a Bible teacher by gifting. The purpose of the gift is to defend fellow believers from the lies of the enemy especially the deliberate and sophisticated ones that you find in the arguments of godless men intent on derailing the Faith of believers.

So, let your heart have cheer. This work I am doing here is for yours and the benefit of all our brothers and sisters who are attacked with lies like the many in this thread.

Ride on sir.

Me myself I'll continue to chip in truths that I can too to defend my faith and and belief.

May God continually grant us (you in particular) the grace and patience to teach this gospel to truth to all in readiness for his coming.
Amen.

Makschinchin:
To add to this, very important, when we fall we should quickly repent of whatever sin it is and ask God for His help to forsake that sin and sinp no more

I think you should read my post of the teachings of grace and hypocrisy on man.

https://https-www-nairaland-com.0.freebasics.com/4856481/teachings-grace-reveals-man-hypocrisy?iorg_service_id_internal=1646953538912597%3BAfoRltNxicEJGDWY

Ihedinobi3:
But why does this bother you so much? If I greedily believe something foolish to my own ruin in this life, what does that have to do with you?

Sir, don't you think that you're feeding the trolls?

I believe there's nothing you'll say that will make them change their minds.. Perhaps due to their unbelief they've given themselves a reprobate heart.

I think you should let them be (at least for now) and let the seed you planted in their hearts be left to grow..

Ihedinobi3:
In my opinion, this may only be another bait thread for Christians. It seems to me that you made your choice and lived it for seven years and you like your experience. So I cannot see what you would expect Christians to tell you. I would expect that you would dismiss Christianity as a fool's dream and ignore Christians while carrying on with this wonderful life you have made for yourself without God in it.

But, for what it is worth, I will humor you.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Truth that we Christians follow is not primarily about this life. Not many of us believers will have that easy a life. Many of us suffer broken marriages as a direct result of our Faith. Many of us suffer penury or at least economic "mediocrity" because we prioritize God's Truth. That is not to say that following Christ necessarily leads to misery. In fact, even in our sufferings, those of us who want to follow the Lord and stick to the program do find a joy and peace that cannot be explained by our circumstances. So, it is not about misery although being a Christian guarantees more suffering in this life than being an unbeliever will.

What Christians endure everything we endure for is the hope we have for the world to come. We look forward to a Resurrection whereby we will be rescued permanently from suffering. We look forward to eternal rewards and riches and glory that this world has not even a prayer at equalling. We look forward to a New Earth and New Heavens where everything is perfect and there is no more evil or injustice of any kind. That is what our true gain is.

For us, this life is a war, a labor, a test that we must endure everyday. We accept the gifts of work, family, friends and entertainment as some of the things the Lord gives us to make our journey bearable for us. But these things are not what we are Christians for. As your own experience proves, even a staunch atheist can have them and have them in abundance. Very few of the wealthiest people in the world are Christians after all. But only Christians expect what we have in this life to be made infinitely better in eternity.

Truer words have never been spoken..

The teaching of the Grace of God always reveals the hypocrisy in men. It makes you see those who are truly doing what they are doing because they want to do it, and those who are doing what they are doing simply out of fear.

I heard a story about Andrew Wommack.
He had just taught about the grace of God and forgiveness of sins in church. Taught it well according to scriptures.
The next day/Sunday, some of the church members were out there smoking. Andrew was challenged: what you taught last Sunday is the reason our members have started smoking. He replied: what I taught isn't why they started smoking, rather what I taught made them come out openly about what they've been doing all the while that you all never knew (paraphrased).
Nobody suddenly starts smoking because he is taught the grace of God.

The sister wasn't using earring before.
Wasn't fixing her hair.
Wasn't painting her lips and nails.
Wasn't wearing trousers.
Then she hears that all these things don't take people to hell.
And almost immediately.
She begins to do all these things.
You'd look at her and said she's backslided cos she was taught Grace.
You're wrong.
She has been putting up an act all the while.
It's now she is living.
This is what she desires to do in her.
She has been living hypocritically
And thing is, the other sister who is also saying this sister has lost it, somewhere inside her, wants to do the same.
But now that she has come out and shown her colour, you can now correct her excess and teach her modesty.

The brother was a faithful tither.
He'd pay first fruit, second fruit, redemption seed, long life seed, etc.
Then he hears that God doesn't curse.
That tithing is abolished with the law.
He stops giving altogether.
You'd say the preaching made him stop giving.
You're wrong.
The preaching only showed you that he'd not been giving willingly. He was just afraid of devourers and curses.
Now, you get the opportunity to teach him generosity as taught in scriptures. And from his heart, he begins to give again.

The minister should never be afraid of teaching the grace of God.
Is there the tendency that his people will "misbehave"?
Yes.
But it's a good thing.
They are shedding off their scale of hypocrisy.
They are casting off that cloak of fear.
Now you can see them clearly.
Now you can teach them to walk in the Spirit.
Now you can teach them to fashion their desires by the word.
And you'll have people, serving the Lord, not out of fear, but out of love and pure devotion to His cause.
It's a blessed day.

Now concerning generational curses and deliverance
1 Timothy 1:3 As I urged you when I was leaving for Macedonia, stay on in Ephesus to instruct certain people not to spread false teachings,
4 nor to occupy themselves with myths and interminable genealogies. Such things promote useless speculations rather than God’s redemptive plan that operates by faith.
Here Paul instructs his Son Timothy to warn certain people in the church who were spreading false teachings centered on fables, myths and endless genealogies about family trees and family bloodlines.
The Greek word translated genealogies is....
genealogia; tracing by generations, that is, " genealogy"
It is from the root word genealogeō:
"to recount a family's origin and lineage, trace ancestry
to draw one's origin, derive one's pedigree"
It is from this thought that you get the teachings on generational curses and family foundations and tracing of almost any problem to your village or some sin or evil that your parents and ancestors did in the past.
Christ is your genealogy
If you notice in the four gospels, all genealogies end with Jesus
We are the new generation
The Jesus generation.
The teaching on generational curses and deliverance has become a very fanciful and enticing doctrine in the church today with heavy roots in Nigeria. and even some American pastors have bought into it in the name of prophetic ministry.
We have very big Ministries and well respected minsters in Nigeria with strong emphasis on the breaking of generational curses and deliverance from "wrong" family foundations.
Your problem is always traced to your lineage, someone in the village, and there is always someone who needs to die first for you to succeed.
And they have very fancy testimonies of such deliverances. As is the case with every false doctrine.
False doctrine thrives on false testimonies and stories.
Any testimony gotten contrary to God's word is false. Doesn't matter the Bishop or GO sponsoring it
Such testimonies are always sold with fanciful unscriptural testimonies and fables. Tales that can never be corroborated by the Word.
There is always a tree to dig in the village for your umbilical cord,
there is always an Idol in the village that needs to be destroyed first,
there is always an uncle or Auntie, grand Mother,
in-law, out-law that is holding your marital destiny, your job and your womb.
These are all products of pastors given to African magic rather than the written word
Selah!
(Most of it always converge into a seed to sow to soar)
There is always a vengeance service needed for you to experience your dramatic turn around.
Mostly the kind of turn around that good money and medical science or common sense could have taken care of.
But you see, religion deadens your brain to good reason.
Sometimes it's a special "revival" service that is the prescription.
The new creature does not need revival. He is not dead.
"What we need is A REVIVAL OF GOOD THINKING"
They dazzle you with preachings of how that King Uzziah always has to die first for Isaiah to see the Lord.
Scriptures taken out of context and murdered to confuse lazy Christians
Jesus already died and that suffices. His death is more than enough
Only one man was needed to die for you to be delivered from darkness.
Rom 5:17 For if by ONE MAN'S offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life BY ONE , JESUS CHRIST .
18 Therefore as by the offence OF ONE judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness OF ONE the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as BY ONE MAN'S disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Jesus did not faint, he truly died
And he didn't stay dead. He's alive today
There is always something extra that has to happen or needs to be done for Christ to move, something always needs to be added to Christ's finished work.
Some even have the nerve to tell you that those teaching 2Cor 5:17 as the bases for your freedom in Christ have no experience and are telling you rubbish.
They will tell you "African problem require African solution".
I want you to see how strongly Paul warned his Son Timothy against this false teachings that uproots you from the liberty wherewith Christ has made you free and entangle you in a yoke of bandage.
It is a false teaching and all it does is minster questions rather than godly edifying. It points you to your ancestors instead of pointing you to Christ and the Cross.
To the dead and not to the living Christ
It is nothing but idolatry and African traditional religion refined and packaged by native doctors on pulpits
Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm" vs 7.
From such turn away.
Any teaching that seeks to add something to Christ or remove something from Christ to make you complete is of the devil.
I don't care which prophetic word they claim to have seen. Those are familiar and lying spirits.
Stay with the Gospel. Stay with teachers who always point you to the finished work of Christ and not to your sin or those of your ancestors.
If your eye be singled on Christ, your whole body will be full of light.
Matt 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
What other deliverance could be more serious than the one purchased by the blood of Jesus, his death and resurrection?
Stay Christ centered
The believer is not in need of deliverance. He is not bound, he is not in darkness but in the light
He is the light!
Most of the tales they peddle as testimonies are what unbelievers get done with just one phone call
That's why such gospel only thrives in Africa.
The gospel is universal. Bill Gates needs it as much as the poorest of the poor needs it.
The grace of Jesus is with your spirit.
Amen

jesusjnr:
There's a gospel being spread around the world, by people who claim to be followers of Jesus, that to believe in Jesus you do not need to obey his words, but this is what Jesus himself, who they claim to be their Lord, said:

"And every one that
heareth these
sayings of mine, and
doeth them not, shall
be likened unto a
foolish man, which built his house upon
the sand: And the rain
descended, and the
floods came, and the
winds blew, and beat
upon that house; and
it fell: and great was the fall of it." Mt 7:26-27.(KJV).

This is what Jesus himself said, therefore you must be wary of such people and such gospels which they preach, for their gospel is like the sand, and believing it is like building your house upon the sand, and only a foolish man would do that as Jesus himself said. Therefore be wise for it's Jesus alone who will determine who gets into eternal life and who doesn't and no one else, so that you don't build a house that ends up crashing into hell. They say, "A word is enough for the wise".

First of all, any preacher that preaches disobedience that Christ word is of the devil. (although I'm sure you're just attacking grace preachers and peddling lies about them)

2ndly you took the gospel out of context (as usual).
Jesus was telling us that any good work that is done without faith in him is like building a house on a sandy foundation.
Only in him (faith in him) is like a house built on a rock.

jesusjnr:
Well it's not unexpected that we are not able to agree on this matter as you lack the knowledge of God, but at least you've agreed with me on something, albeit unwittingly, that the animals knew better than science somehow, so I believe they can teach you and your trusted science something, like how to detect such impending dangers, for that could literally save lives as yours in the future.

And I rest my case on that compassionate note!

You're the one that lacks the knowledge of God.
The reason people like him doesn't believe in God is because of people like you who paint God as a murderer and a consuming fire, taking scriptures out of context to feed your false teachings..

You lack the knowledge of Christ who is the explanation of the mysteries of God.
The mysteries that the prophets of old couldn't fully comprehend was explained and simplified in Christ.
Job, Abraham, moses, Jacob and all the prophets of old perceived God in shadows. Christ came to clear the misunderstandings about God. And yet people like you still see God through another means and not through Christ..

Any description of God that cannot be found in Jesus is the description of another God.

The Jesus I know calmed storms and not create one.
The Jesus I know rebuked his disciples when they asked him to call down fire to teach unbelievers a lesson for rejecting him.
The Jesus of the bible didn't let the Pharisees kill a woman caught in the very act of adultery.
The Jesus I know never destroyed.

If Jesus, the image of the invisible God, having the nature and attributes of God never killed or encouraged killing then God will never kill or encourage killings..
Jesus said; I do what my father does.

The very notion I have of the devil is what some of you preach about God.
The nature of the devil which is to steal kill and destroy is the same nature some of you give to God.

A God that is good today and bad tomorrow.
A God that saved yesterday but kills today.
A God that sent his son to die for the sins of man but still kill man for the same sins that have been paid for.
A God of light today darkness tomorrow.
A landlord who gifts a house to his tenants but still collect rent for that same house.

Well, you can keep preaching the god that you preach. But the god you preach isn't the God my Lord Jesus Christ.

They got born again after the death and resurrection of Jesus. The holy spirit is the seal of our salvation.

It's actually funny when these set of people leave their scientific books and use the Bible to preach this their nonsense...

The Grace message is not about talking nice or acting Cool and Behind in prayers
The Grace message is not some experiential sweet talks about a loving God that doesn't condemn mankind
The Grace message is not some nice Gists about Jesus and how he wants all men okay
The Grace message is not that God now smiles at Sin
The Grace message is not about any Jamboree in the Name of God's Love
Rather
It's to Critically examine and Preach Jesus
And ALL HE HAS DONE
Especially ON THE CROSS
What he did for man IN HELL
What he gave to man upon the Resurrection
And Who He is to us TODAY
IT MUST BE CHRIST CENTERED
Hence we use the word CHRISTOCENTRIC
There are many worse enticing errors out there in the name of Grace
Be Warned!

Makschinchin:
Hello dear, we aren't saying a believer cannot fall into sin? The question remains this, "if this same believer does not confess that sin and death comes or Jesus comes, will he/she still make Heaven??

You guys are making it sound that once you have believed, Heaven is for sure, with or without sin and you even contradict the Bible that saye that no unrighteous/wrongdoer shall inherit the kingdom of God.

What happens when such believer dies in his sin? Is the believer seal of salvation broken?

Donelli:
Points to consider
1. Any Nigerian who has basic enlightenment on history and politics will understand that Britain wields huge influence on Nigeria, I dare say they rule the country by proxy.

2. It is in their best interest that power remains in the north, being their region of greatest influence and control.

3. Britain is an enemy of Nigeria as a whole, not just Biafra, take it or leave it. Anyone who has no interest in your development is not exactly a friend. You might say, nobody owes us anything...Yes, but then they should stop meddling and sabotaging our affairs.
Question: The south was the proponent of independence, why was power handed to the North who was again independence?

4. Find out when Nnamdi Kanu became a British citizen, find out when IPOB started.

5. Why was an attempt made on his life when he raised alarm about an imposter in Aso rock? Of course some still believe it's choreography

6. He asked his followers to boycott elections, what reasons did he give? Are these reasons tangible?

7. Many people in the diaspora are either permanent residents or citizens of developed countries but are also IPOB proponents, why is that so?

8. The almighty Nigerian Army intelligence still do not know how he "escaped" right under their noses. Was it human genius or divine intervention? What does that tell you about the porosity of national security apparatus?

9. It is believed that Britain is in on the plot. How then do you expect their allies to act? This conspiracy will ONLY be uncovered by private investigators and not the government of any country, but wait till the secret is unveiled then you'll know the gravity of what we're talking about.

Finally, quit lamenting and join the ongoing investigation (for or against). I personally believe this unity needs to be renegotiated else, Nigeria, founded on falsehood will never work.

I stand with REFERENDUM!

Nigerians should concentrate on her development and stop blaming Britain for her underdevelopment.
For God sake, they granted us independence 58 years ago yet some are still blaming them Nigeria's woes.. So they're also the cause of the other underdeveloped African countries woes too abi?

2. 14 years out of the 19 years of this 3rd republic Southerners headed the affairs of Nigeria. (OBJ 1999- 2007 and GEJ 2009- 2014) yet you claim Britain is imposing northerners on us..

3. How is Britain an enemy of Nigeria? And how exactly are they hampering our development? Are they the ones embezzling the funds meant for our development? Are the governors and senators Britain citizens? Is it queen Elizabeth that impose our corrupt leaders on us or we voted them to power by ourselves?

4. Don't have anything to say there..

5. Trust me, if an attempt was made on Kanu's life, he'd not be alive today. His death will be made to look like an accident.

6. Nothing to say.

7. Nothing to say.

8. In my own opinion, there are two things involved. Either KANU wasn't in his home when it was invaded on that fateful day or he was whisked away by the Nigerian government. There's just no way someone like KANU can leave the shores of Nigeria without the government being involved..

9. No secret is going to be revealed for the sole purpose that no secret exist to be revealed.

Finally, Britain stopped being Nigeria's problem in 1st October 1960. The day Nigeria gained her independence. Nigeria has been the source of her problems from that day till now.

What if we're all in the matrix??