₦airaland Forum

openmine:
1 Timothy 1:9
8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.
9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,

if u think the law is good,why are you not obeying other laws? why are you only obeying and keeping one while u leave the rest?

I didn't say I'm obeying the law . Tithes and offering are kingdom principles and the fact that they are contained in the law does not demonized them.

according to hebrews 7,the law[quote]was never good cos it made nothing perfect....it was also useless because it never showed or depicted d true picture of God our father...
true d law was good but it was never meant for a believer...
Ephesians 2:14
Colossians 2:6 - 23
Romans 10:4


t...but once we have been led to Christ,d dictates and practices of the law has no effect on us....

dere used to be a popular illustration....if u are travelling to Lagos from portharcourt.... and u needed two buses to get dere.....let's say d first bus will take you to Edo state,and u board Anoda bus to Lagos....
the bus from portharcourt to Benin has already completed its mission....now a different bus will have to take u to Lagos....d law was meant to lead us 2 Christ by showing us our sins,but wen Christ was revealed,d law no longer had an effect on us...in other words,we are no longer meant to abide by those laws any more...

Well if you understand my point . The long write up may not be necessary . I'm not advocating living under the law . My point is . The fact that certain things are contained in the law don't make them evil .

openmine:
Hebrews 7:11 -12
11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood—why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?
12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.

Hebrews 7:18
18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

Hebrews 7:28
28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

Remember....without a new law,dere can never b a new priesthood or covenant....wen Christ became high priest,a new covenant which had a new law was given....
.

If you observe . The only condemnation of the law is it's inability to make a man righteous. The law is good . Because it's a document of right and wrong, you can't know what sin is without the know,edge of the law. But you don't get justified by it , that's all. The moral law is still kingdom moral principle . You don't go into immorality because you are not under the law. It's as simple as that
.

Gombs:
did you see someone call me a swindler or not? did you reprimand him?

my point is, no need being hypocritical. I didn't insult you or anyone here too

If he says they are not together . Maybe they are not together na.

Junia:
Why practise something doesnt justify you

Because they are kingdom principles .secondly I'm justified and these are works of righteousness. Don't you practice what doesn't justify you?

The law of tithing made provision for the poor .. widow .. levite priests .. eating it during festivals
So why tithe to a church ??

There were 3 kinds of tithes in the Bible . Only one is shared with widows . It's different from the tithe giving to God

Junia:
He knew it came before Moses yet He called it a law

Quote where Jesus said tithe is law

Junia:
.
Hebrew 8:13
By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

The law is the law of God. It reveals Gods mind and principles . Without the law you will have no knowledge of what is right or wrong.

Romans 7:7 (KJV)
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Romans 7:12 (KJV)
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Men wanted justification by the works of the law. The works of the law are good in themselves . They are Gods principle . Except the part christ fulfilled . Righteousnes only came by christ .

Philippians 3:9 (KJV)
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

If you study the Bible well you will notice that every condemnation of the law has to do with seeking righteousness or justification. It lacked the power to make a man righteous but the deed of the law are good in themselves .

Junia:
..
From what you posted did you realise why they paid money ??

Sure , they only bring what could be used in the house of God. But whatever God can't use . You give cash for it. Also traders give in cash .

Tithing is a law

It's only contained in the law. It was already in existence before the law . Just as worship ,thanksgiving, offferings ,prayers . Alsmgiving .

Why should you obey a law and alient yourself from Christ ??

We give tithes and offerings because they are principles in Gods kingdom . Just as offerings , prayers ,almsgiving and honoring parents not because the law say so . But because God is pleased with them and they are principles in the kingdom of God . Ever before the law came

He endorsed tithing because He was fufilling the law

The new law was in the law also . Love the lord thy God , love thy Neighbour

After he fufilled it and died
We were instructed not to live by the law again
Why then go back to it ??

The principles of God mentioned in the law are not wrong in themselves . What Is wrong is to seek justification by them .

freshcvvs:
The one that came first KJV before NKJV that smuggled in some words not found in the previous version.

Brother, There were over 5 translations before kjv came . So kjv was not the first bible in English . Don't condemn a translation because it doesn't fit your ideology

Junia:
Why did you choose the WEB version

For you to understand the passage and my point better.

Lets go to King James for better understanding

And why chose king James ?

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone

From here you can clearly see that Jesus called tithe a lighter part of the law
The pharisees and scribes chose the lighter part of the law and eschewed the weightier part of the law
And Jesus said they should do both

Beautiful. He called it lighter part compared to justice ,faithfulness etc . I don't have problem with that at all. But he said to do all. He endorsed tithing . That's all that matter.

Did Jesus say Christians should tithe

1 Corinthians 9:14 (KJV)
14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

Why didnt He tell His disciples to tithe but the pharisees

Because the disciples didn't have the hypocritical problem the Pharisees had . Jesus wanted a balance . He was quick to rebuke the deciles when they erred as well

Abrahams tithe was from war booty
How many times did he even tithe ??
Is it not only once
Why didn't he continue doing it

It was a lifestyle but That's the only record we had . Remembered God testified that Abraham would teach his household his ways .and Jacob tithed as well. Remembered when he made his own commitment to God as he learnt from Abraham

Genesis 28:22 (KJV Strong's)
22 . . . and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

Cash was given as tithe only when the giver wants to keep his produce

At least they gave cash for tithes and offering

The money was again used to and buy the produce

No one paid tithe with a dog
We don't pay tithes with dogs

They redeemed unclean animals

Leviticus 27:27 (KJV Strong's)
27 And if it be of an unclean beast, then he shall redeem it according to thine estimation, and shall add a fifth part of it thereto: or if it be not redeemed, then it shall be sold according to thy estimation.


People gave tithe and offering of their possession. In cash or kind.

Luke 18:12 (AMPC)
12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I gain.

kolaish:
FYI, my pastor is an example of good pastors worth emulating, for example, he doesn't touch church fund, there is the church body responsible for that. He has his own personal work that he do for a living and does not depend on church fund for a living. That is not to say that the pastors that are living on church fund (in form of salary) are not good pastors. The truth is that the bible foretold 'wolf in sheep's clothing' so, we should not be suprised to see fake pastors among the good ones, afterall, Judas chooses to follow the wrong paths despite being Jesus disciple.

More excellent post. Satan just using certain individuals to try rubish the body of christ. Pastors are rather tithers and givers

kolaish:
once again, we are different beings. Your ideology and perception of life is totally different from mine and I can not force mine on you and you cannot force yours on mine, we do what suits us better. My God has been good to me and I have been paying my tithe as usual, why do you have any problem with it? If you are not paying tithe and it is good for you, then go ahead and stop bringing negative things about the church to the media to spite christianity. instead, channel your problems/grievances to the right channel, meet the so called pastors and ask/confront them with it and iron out the differences with them.

EXCELLENCE POST

Junia:
No because He was yet to die ??
How can He condemn the same law He came to fulfill
After His death ... we were instructed not to live by the law because Christ has already fulfiled the law

It's not true .He hadn't died yet when he talked about it .
. What you call a new law is still the old law re emphasized .

Leviticus 19:18 (KJV Strong's)
18 . . . . but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.

Mark 12:29-31 (KJV Strong's)
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

He was rather quoting the old . But emphasized a part which included the rest . So the deed of the law are not wrong in themselves . But it is wrong to seek to be justified by them . You're justified by faith .

If Jesus endorsed tithing while he was yet alive and he endorsed law of love while he was yet alive . Why would you condemn the tithes and uphold the law of love

.

Junia:
God calls tithing a law

Where did he call it a law? Quote pls

My master didn't tell me to tithe

He did
Luke 11:42 WEB
But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and every herb, but you bypass justice and God’s love. [b]You ought to have done these,(tithing)[/b]and not to have left the other undone.

Neither did the early Church

They did .

Tithing was not even money but Agricultural products

It's both . Did Abraham tithe agric produce

Thats why Jesus didn't tithe Because He wasn't involved in agriculture

If he encouraged it ,then he's a tither . Secondly people gave cash and wither items as tithes and offering.

Can I ask you a question? A man who sells dogs how does he give his tithes and offerings ?

Junia:
They are laws

Beautiful. And you agree it is wrong to violate them . If incest is condemned before the law and its condemned in the law . And you agree that it's still wrong today even though we are not under the law . But because it's against Gods principles God hates it ,The same way . Tithing and offering practiced before the law , mentioned in the law is part of Gods principle . Even though we are not under the law.

Junia:
He destroyed Sodom and Gommorah

Beautiful before the law . So likewise tithes and offerings before the law

Junia:
God doesnt like it
Again if you love God .. you wont do anything to hurt Him

How do you know God doesn't like it

Junia:
No
Im under grace or the law of christ
It requires me to love God and my neighbours
Therefore if i love God .. will i worship idols ?? No
I have obeyed Christs' law not the OT law

What about gay and incest . Why did Paul condemn it After all it's by mutual consent .

Junia:
But tithe is a law
God Himself called it a law though it existed before the law
Likewise circumsision existed before the law but is classified as a law
And Paul said if anyone practise it ... Christ will be of no profit to him or her and he or she will be a debtor to the whole law
Thus .. the person will be under a curse

Not worshiping idol is a law also . So do you now worship idol?

Junia:
I believe in offering

I appreciate your honesty

But i use the name offering and collection interchangeably
Yes .. the collection is also an offering but its not the same offering in the law ??

It's just like borrowing and lending . Whatever you give is an offering ,whatever you collect or receive is a collection. It depends on who the subject is. Brethren don't give collection. They give offerings. The official recieves or collect "collection"

collection is also an offering but its not the same offering in the law ??

It's not an issue . What matter is the principles . It's a principle to worship God with an offering. Whatever your offering may be . Either cash , live animal or burnt animal . Whatever you offer to God is an offering . Same goes for tithes . We are not under Leviticus's system but tithes and offerings pre existed the Levitical system. So the fact that leviticslmsystem came and gone doesn't put an end to the principles of the kingdom of God which was already there.

If I give tithe . I'm not giving it because the law says so. If I give offering I'm not giving it because the law say so? Like wisely if I give Alms to the poor. If I call on God in prayer I do it because they were principles of Gods kingdom through the ages . And they never stop.

Junia:
I hope the offering was not the laws type of offering
Or ??

Waitin. . .

Junia:
No tithe .. no offering but Collection

Going to bed
Lets continue later
God bless you

I asked you a question last night . You first said you believe in giving God offering later through your brother Counsel you denied believing giving in offering and you said you believe in collections in church. And I asked you, these collections ,what are they called ? Is it not offering ? Can I have your response pls?

MuttleyLaff:
So Paul went to the Temple the next day with the other men.
They had already started the purification ritual,
so he publicly announced the date when their vows would end and sacrifices would be offered for each of them
- Acts 21:26

The Nazarite Vow
¹⁸The Nazirite shall then shave his dedicated head of hair at the doorway of the tent of meeting,
and take the dedicated hair of his head and put it on the fire which is under the sacrifice of peace offerings.
¹⁹The priest shall take the ram's shoulder when it has been boiled, and one unleavened cake out of the basket
and one unleavened wafer, and shall put them on the hands of the Nazirite after he has shaved his dedicated hair.
²⁰'Then the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the LORD.
It is holy for the priest, together with the breast offered by waving and the thigh offered by lifting up;
and afterward the Nazirite may drink wine.
- Numbers 6:18-20

Why dont you try pulling my other leg. What is Paul calling offering here?
I bet you want to say money, cash, kudi, etcetera, abi?

Of course it's money

For reasons best known to you, you are either playing being ignorant here or behaving in an untrustworthy or deceitful way

Stop being insultive , just explain your points. Or I will stop communication with you. Let's excercise christian fruits .

2 Timothy 2:24 (KJV Strong's)
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

Acts 21:26 and Numbers 6:18-20 above blows this wide open,
and I wonder why you didnt notice Acts 24:18, where you easily would have found that Paul was mentioning being in a temple over a Nazarite Vow because the temple hasn't yet been destroyed.

Whichever way you look at it . It's still wrong . Offering is offering . If Paul offered Animal sacrifice why should you condemn tithe . If Paul offered money same

The “offerings” were the sacrifices which the Apostle was about to offer on the completion of the Nazarite vow with which he had associated himself.
- Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

And offerings - The word used here properly denotes "an offering or gift" of any kind; but it is usually applied to an oblation or offering made to God in the temple - "a thank-offering, a sacrifice." This is probably its meaning here. He came to bring aid to his needy countrymen, and an offering to God; and it was, therefore, no part of his purpose to interfere with, or to profane the worship of the temple.
- Barnes' Notes on the Bible

Brother . The offering Paul gave were the special offerings the churches had been putting together every service for the saints in Jerusalem. Check your bible again. And also try put some humility in your communication so that when you make mistakes like this there will be room to take correction. But when you go all about throwing abusive words .when bible ever den ever proove you wrong , it May be difficult to accept. And that's waste of time . That's why I cut off when any poster start acting or talk nutty.

MuttleyLaff:
Unfortunately no

You're wrong. Even Paul himself called it offering

Acts 24:17 (KJV Strong's)
17 Now after many years I came to bring alms to my nation, and offerings.

freshcvvs:
Question should be "why the addition"?

Addition of what? Other translations? So which one of them do you prefer? Kjv or rsv

MuttleyLaff:
Please for a moment, be at least honest, as I have not said any word(s), he hasnt previously or already said

SMH. If I say you're incorrigible, you'll interpret it as insult

Just exercise spiritual fruit. It's a discussion. Not a fight . You wan fight for God?

If I say you're now being pedantic, you'll interpret it as insult

You mustn't speak if there nothing to say. Just study your bible .

Offering what gangan?

Whatever you give to God or in his name is an offering .

OlaoChi:
I think reasonable person will take you black christian more seriously than a Rabbi who is into the jewish traditions ( the issue of tithes being a jewish tradition)

the jews have made it clear that Tithes are for the Levites because they owned no lands and were mainly priests, your pastors are not levites but black men

Christianity is a fraud!

Abraham wasn't a Jew . Tithes and offerings are kingdom principles

MuttleyLaff:
The glory goes to God

He knows the truth, and is broken free from the shackles of tithe marketeers

Then he has right to excercise his conviction without being a spoke mouth of another or another acting as his mouth piece

MuttleyLaff:
When he said, yes, that was in reference believing in giving collection
He is having neither of tithes or offerings

Kindly allow him to speak for himself . It's evident you're putting words in his mouth.

Collection, which is NT, is collecting of money, as in taking contribution for gospel purposes and the cause of God's work

And was the collection not an offering ?

Offering as was in OT, are the five Levitical Offerings,

Prayer was in OT also ,fasting was OT . Likewise honoring thy father and mother .

which are the burnt offering, the meal offering, the peace offering, the sin offering and the trespass offering.

You missed the wave offering ,heave offering .

Incidentally each of the offerings or sacrifices were uniquely fulfilled in Jesus Christ, so we dont have the need to do any of the offerings
On Calvary, Jesus is our Peace Offering, is our Guilt or Sin Offering, is our Burnt Offering, is our Trespass Offering and Meal Offering

Offering as an institution will always be part of worship of God. Old ,new and future dispensation

MuttleyLaff:
Mark my words and watch him,
because he's going to come back with a bible version of 1 Corinthians 16:1 that incorrectly translates the word ''collection'' as offering
and then excitedly say gotcha, offering is not redundant etcetera

You have good memory. But don't try to biase the purity of another mans conscience. Let him seek truth for himself . And don't try to win argument. Seek truth and Let truth Prevail

Junia:
Obedience is a law .. Yes
But in the new covenant .. we are to love our neighbours as ourselves and love God also
That is our commandment under grace
We are not to obey anything in the law
And if you obey the commandment under grace
You will certainly obey God to proof your love

The law reveals Gods principle . The law is a documentation of rights and wrongs . Knowledge of such is important.

No tithe .. no offering but Collection

And what is the collection called? No bi offering?

openmine:
the bold part is only valid as long as the law still exists...and as long as dere r still "levites" and a "physical temple".....do u still partake in burnt offerings cos Dats also "a statute forever throughout your generations"....

Tithes and offerings are eternal principles . There's a temple in heaven . And in the new world there will be offerings

Junia:
I thought i said yes and gave a reference to my giving

You didn't say yes . I take it that you said yes . If you believe in giving offering . Was it not an institution under the law as well ? Why the attack on tithes only ? If we must follow your theology we should never give to God . We should not even obey God . Because obedience to God was an institution under the law. You can see the point. Tithes an offerings were by same principles . You can't take one and leave the other .