₦airaland Forum

EzeUche:
1. I do not know the rate, because we do not any study for me to point to. I am just speculating, because I have seen a lot of intermarriage in my lifetime. Remember I am a product of an intermarriage.
2. Well some of these groups range from a mere hundred thousand to a few million.
3. As larger groups expand into other regions, they can displace other groups. Look at what happened to Lagos, which was originally part of your Benin Empire. Now it practically a Yoruba city.
4. In the smaller groups will be absorbed. It is only a matter of time. Do not be upset, this is how the world works and how societies change. Smaller groups get absorbed into bigger groups. An example is in Germany and France. When Rome collapsed, Franks invaded Gaul, but other groups invaded as well. However, the Franks became dominant and absorbed the other groups.
5. The Mongols who settled in China did get absorbed. As well as countless other groups whose names have been forgotten. You could not deny the Manchu who were practically absorbed by the dominant Han culture.

Physics, I think you are worried about your people being absorbed by a larger group. Let me give you a possible scenario, a huge influx of non-Edo move into Edo state and before long outnumber the Edo. How long do you think your people will be able to keep their identity? Especially if the other group has a stronger identity.

1. Yeah, but intermarriage does not really seem to be the means by which a group could be absorbed. The rate of intermarriage required to "breed a group into oblivion" is unrealistically high.
2.  Which groups of a 100,000 or a few million do you think will not be around? You think Nigeria will be WAZOBIA? Like I said before, the actual population statistics strongly contradict that idea.
3.  As larger groups expand into other regions? Lagos was not populated by Benin people, it was at some point in time populated by a small segment of Benin royalty and/or military. The Yoruba did not expand into Lagos and wrest it from Benin.
4. I think your use of "absorb" was what threw me. Maybe what you mean to say is that a certain culture became dominant. You are talking of military invasions  and conquest now, but you were originally talking about what will happen in the next 500 years. I think in 500 years, groups would need to worry about whether or not they become too Westernized culturally and language wise, but not whether they get "absorbed" by the West.
5. The problem with the language/culture argument is that, with the exception of the North, every group only seems in danger of losing their culture and language to Western culture and language, rather than that of any larger group within the country, as the cultures and language of those larger groups are not in a position to wear away that of any other groups. The Hausa/Fulani clothing, for example, which some of Nigeria has adopted to their own styles, is that an example of losing one's culture when one chooses to wear it? Or rather, is it an example of adapting another group's culture to your own? The Yoruba gele head wrap, which much of southern Nigeria has adopted, does that wear away the cultures of those that adopt it? If somebody in Akoko-Edo wears agbada, his wife wears Yoruba clothing and gele, and they speak Yoruba, do you think they actually become Yoruba and no longer whatever group they were?

As for the scenario where a huge influx of non-Edo move into Edo state, I don't see how that would affect the identity of those in the state, and I don't see how you could measure the "strength" of one group's identity compared to another group. If anything, if the group were not large enough, it would be in grave danger of losing its identity to a group  in Edo state and adopting some Edo culture and language.

[quote author=eku_bear link=topic=638211.msg8077242#msg8077242 date=1302229348]Hrm, so this isn't quite the case of one large group absorbing a smaller one. More several small groups merging into one. But generally when this happens, one of the small subgroups seems to have a disproprotionate share of the culture. For the Germans, I'm not sure which group this is. For the Yoruba, it is probably Oyo language and culture. For Igbos, I guess Anambra?[/quote]I think the Germanic groups diverged from one ancestor population and that the groups that diverged developed their own unique variants on the general ancient Germanic culture, leading to them being designated as different tribes. They then reproduced at varying rates based on their prosperity and the success of their towns and cities, and some of them intermarried with other groups. But is there really much difference between the Angles and the Saxons? Which one had a disproportionate share of the Anglo-Saxon culture? It's not clear, so I don't think we can assume that one group's culture was was predominant.

Marriage isn't the only way. Language/culture is another way. The language/culture of the smaller group absorbs larger and larger percentages of the language/culture of the larger group. . . until eventually the distinction vanishes.

True. I was looking at "absorbed" as meaning actually becoming ethnically indistinguishable.

[quote author=eku_bear link=topic=638211.msg8077138#msg8077138 date=1302227143]And why do you see more ethnic groups coming into being? This only really occurred in the past due to poor communication/long distances, etc. Thousands of years ago, your cousin Frank would leave central Nigeria, move down to South Africa and 1000 years later his descendants speak an entirely different language, have a very different culture. Today, that is very less likely to happen.[/quote]You're right, actually. I don't think people will consciously designate blended ethnic groups as new groups (lol, Tiger Woods' "Cablasian" nonsense kind of comes to mind here), as they would be well aware of the earlier groups from which they are descended.

naijaking1:
This was my original statement:

The point is that Igbo influence traverses Anioma and other currently Igbo speaking people west of the Niger.
A basic anthropological unity between Igbos and their immediate neighbours cannot be denied by any serious scholar. Igalas clearly have Igbo ancestry, or Igbos clearly have Igala ancestry. Same goes for Ibibios, Efiks, Idomas, Urobos, and yes Yorubas.

Once again, there should be no question that people who live close to each other do influence themselves by culture, language, marriage, etc. Many times these neighbours have same ancestry somewhere along the line. Igbos, Igalas, Ibibios, and others are no exception.

Ok,

[quote author=eku_bear link=topic=638211.msg8077138#msg8077138 date=1302227143]PhysicsMHD: But think of some of those small village tribes in the North who were absorbed by their neighbors. Or the Germanic tribes of the past who saw each other as distinct peoples. I think EzeUche's point is not incorrect. . . if you are a small ethnic group of 100,000 people, you'll probably get absorbed by your neighbors eventually. But if you are already several million today, then you are probably fine.

Likely a threshold exists above which you'll be OK, below which you are in danger.

And why do you see more ethnic groups coming into being? This only really occurred in the past due to poor communication/long distances, etc. Thousands of years ago, your cousin Frank would leave central Nigeria, move down to South Africa and 1000 years later his descendants speak an entirely different language, have a very different culture. Today, that is very less likely to happen.[/quote]1. Ok, I see the point about the Northern tribes, but I'm not sure that they all constitute distinct ethnic groups.
2. The Germanic tribes? Who were they "absorbed" by? (What large groups absorbed which smaller groups?)
3. Regarding a group numbering 100,000 getting absorbed, I don't really see how it can happen unless there is some sort of massive marriage drive between that small group and some nearby group.

Let's assume that the group of 100,000 doubles every 50 years (a very low reproduction rate at that population, I think population growth actually starts out high with small populations and then slows down as you approach some upper population limit, but I don't want to get into any real population growth modeling and I want to show that even with constant abysmally low reproduction they won't be absorbed). Let's say that of that 100,000, a whopping 50% marry into (become subsumed into) the larger group comprised of 20 million people and that the other 50% marry within their same group. Then 50 years from now, you would still have at least 100,000 of that same distinct small ethnic group. For this particular scenario with this abnormally infertile group of only 100,000, unless more than 1 out of every 2 people chooses to marry into some other larger group, I don't see how they get absorbed. They can't decrease in number unless they have a really great rate of intermarriage with other groups.

naijaking1:
The point that i have been trying to make before aletheia supported it with documents remains that proximity does infer co-sanguinity, no matter how remote. If you're so afraid of noting that some Igalas might have Igbo ancestry, please also consider that I also said that some Igbos might have Igala roots.

This ancient consanguinity was never seriously in doubt in my mind, but your original insinuation was of a quite different nature. There is a world of difference between saying Igalas and Igbo descended from the same larger parent stock a long long time ago and claiming that Igalas are using Igbo words and names. If one was to go by your original insinuation, one would actually end up leaning towards Igalas having Yoruba ancestry, more so than Igbos, as one could claim Igalas were using "Yoruba" words to a great extent. My objection was based on there not seeming to be any evidence for the claim. That's all.

EzeUche:
1. There is definitely a high rate of intermarriage between small groups and with the larger groups. You cannot deny this fact. If you go up North, you will see plenty of Hausa men with wives from some of the smaller groups up North. In the SW the Yoruba are know to intermarry with neighboring groups. Especially you precious Bini people. In the East, Igbos have intermarried with Igala, Ibibio, Ijaw etc. The larger groups will absorb the smaller groups. It is only a matter of time.

2. The Han Chinese did absorb the Mongols who settled in China. After the Mongolian invasion of China, many of the Mongols such as Kublai Khan and his descendants were practically Chinese in name, language and culture. The same goes for the Manchu who conquered China.

1. How high is a "high rate"?
2. How small are these "small groups"?
3. In the SW? Where? Lagos? Ondo? A few locations here and there can hardly lead to the complete assimilation of a group. It has to be on a substantial scale.
4. You say that in the East, Igbos have intermarried with "Igala, Ibibio, Ijaw, etc." but your basic assertion that "some of these groups will not exist in 500 years" seems to be rubbished by the fact that just these groups alone went from having populations of less than 300,000, 1 million, 1 million, respectively to having populations of over 2 million, 4 million, and nearly 5 million.
5. The Mongols did not get "absorbed" by the Han Chinese. That should be pretty easy to understand. A small segment of the Mongols ventured into Han China and were massively outnumbered and eventually became subsumed over time into the Han Chinese population. Similarly, a small segment of Edo people ventured into Yorubaland (Ondo, for example) and later became completely Yoruba over time. Yet the population of unmixed Edo still just kept increasing. The Mongols are alive and well in Mongolia.

EzeUche:
^^^

You better hope so.

However, I highly doubt that. The lines between groups are blending. Either some groups will lose their culture and language.

Or they will be bred into oblivion.

I understand you fears though.

It doesn't long for people to lose their identities. Look at how the Han Chinese were able to absorb so many groups. Even though who had conquered them like the Mongols.

1. Well, you're presuming that there's a high rate of intermarriage between the small groups and some larger groups. This doesn't seem to be the case at all. Perhaps you know something I don't, or maybe you're thinking of a country other than Nigeria.
2. Who did the Han Chinese absorb? Not the Mongols.
3. As for "you better hope so" my group's size has only been increasing constantly since the formation of Nigeria, so once again, I think you're thinking of a country other than Nigeria.

EzeUche:
Lets be honest with ourselves in 500 years or more, some of these groups will not even exist and shall be absorbed by the larger groups. This has occurred throughout the world.

^^

It's exactly the other way around.

5000 years ago there may have been a "proto-Kwa" group but now no such thing exists.

Differentiation just increases.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a few more ethnic groups around several centuries from now.

naijaking1:
Thanks for the educative research. I was running short of time to do it myself. It seems common knowledge that people who historically lived close to each other, but separated by some geophysical boundary---thick forest, river, or even mountain do tend to develop different accents, and eventually full fledged languages as time goes on. I thought that knwoledge is common, but I guess common knowledge is not so common after all.

This is true, but groups don't need to separated by a physical boundary to diverge from a parent language or develop different dialects, and anyway, Igalas are certainly not separated from anybody really. They're directly surrounded by and in contact with a lot of different groups.

[quote author=Igwe-1 link=topic=641673.msg8076939#msg8076939 date=1302222952]Dude, i really do not have to argue with you because it'll be like arguiing with a person less than my younger ones. I have a brother who graduated from Harvad med school and doing his residency at Johns Hopkins and a sister at yale med school now and another brother currently at Stanford law school. Don;t tell me about graduate school cuz i have 3 degrees myself and my family is well made and educated in the US. I travel the world because i am a business man. So i have been to many of these schools,and i know i see way more IGBOS than any group. wake up to reality.[/quote]That's just it. There are already a somewhat greater number of Igbos in America to begin with, but this gap that you're claiming, if it exists, can't be all that significant - and this is coming from somebody who actually lives here.

You say you are a "business man" with 2 (you edited it to 3, did you forget one?) degrees who's "been to" (whatever that means) "many" (however many that is) of these schools. But you're not really an academic so your assertion that Igbos are overwhelmingly doing better than any group in academic areas or even in "power professions" is questionable when you wouldn't even normally look up enough of these areas (engineering, medicine, law, science) on a regular basis or in great detail to see who's doing what and whether any of them are Nigerians. I'm also skeptical of whether you're even interacting with many Nigerians in college outside of Igbos. I'll chalk your conclusions up to you possibly being someone who only goes around searching lists for Igbo names. I would have thought that if you were to see how many non-Igbo Nigerians were also doing incredibly well academically in America that this would actually be a source of pride to you that black Africans, and particularly those from your region/country, are doing well in good environments despite claims of inherent African inferiority, but instead you're just asserting, based on your limited observations, that this trend in the U.S. is almost exclusively from one particular ethnic group, when to people actually here it seems to be occurring among multiple groups. Anyway, I'll agree to disagree.

I missed his mention of Ndidi Okereke-Onyiuke, who actually should not be celebrated, in my opinion. But I think his general observation holds true.

[quote author=Femi Fani-Kayode link=topic=641673.msg8076868#msg8076868 date=1302221686]However in the last 12 years the Igbos seem to have taken over in this respect and are now well-ahead of the rest of Nigeria. Just a few years and look at what they have achieved. It really is quite remarkable. Can anyone tell me their secret or why this is so? What could be responsible for their doggedness, their natural drive, their tremendous energy and their great strength of character? What is it about these strong-willed eastern women of Bantu and Igbo extraction that now and all of a sudden sets them so far apart?[/quote]lol, he thinks Igbos are Bantu?

I suspect that this is part of that habit of perceiving/imagining that the rival group or "other" group must really be so different from your own group.

[quote author=Igwe-1 link=topic=641673.msg8076858#msg8076858 date=1302221510]Brother,go to the ivy league schools in the US and UK and tell me the names of black students in most of their power professions like Medicine, Engineering, law, , even in state schools, this is the same story. Most IGBOS i have met in the US and Europe, (80%) are in the upper middle class to upper class in those places. That is the success i am talking about. I don't know where you leave, but this has been my personal experience and i have travelled around the world.[/quote]I haven't traveled around the world. I live here in the U.S. and I'm in college right now, so I'm not basing my observation on cursory glances through name lists or on sampling from afar.

Let me make it simpler:

1. Igbos have a population of 25-30 million.
2. Igbos go to America more than a country like the UK, so there is already a disproportionately higher number of them in the U.S. when compared with Yoruba.
3. Yet, they don't seem to edging out the Yorubas academically in the U.S., whether we're talking about students in engineering and medicine, or about going on to grad school and/or becoming professors. You would think the gap would be large enough to where you could notice it if what you're asserting is actually true, but the gap between Igbo and Yoruba must be either insignificantly small or not actually existent, despite the (reasonable) assumption that there are more Igbos in the U.S. to begin with.

[quote author=Igwe-1 link=topic=641673.msg8076833#msg8076833 date=1302221093]Those qualities are intrinsic in both IGBO men and women. All they need is the right environment and atmosphere and the best in them will come out. If you look at IGBOS in the US and other parts of the world, they are excelling way more than their local citizen counterparts. Now back to this article, the success of IGBO women came to light in the last 12yrs because Nigeria transitioned from a military government that seldomly gives women an the opportunity to progress to a democracy that give voice to everyone. Though Nigeria's democracy is not perfect, what it did was to give power  and voice (at least some) to the people it belongs to and those are Nigerians.  NIGERIA WILL NEVER REACH ITS BEST potential unless it fully tap into this can-do spirit of IGBOS, just like other countries and organizations have.[/quote]And you know this because? Any data?

This hasn't been my experience, as one of those actually living here.

Interesting question by Mr. Fani-Kayode. However, I think the title is a little misleading. The only group which could compete in that department with Igbos would be Yorubas so the "other Nigerian" is not even necessary.  Hausas are behind Yorubas and Igbos in almost all spheres of life unfortunately, and the other groups don't have the population to rack up a list anywhere as long. So maybe this is his way of lamenting the apparent dearth of recent outstanding Yoruba female public figures as compared with Igbo female trailblazers. If I were to put forward a guess, I would say it might be a result of culture and environment.

ezeagu:
How many Nigerian polities did this person research before writing this?

lol, clearly not very many

There are several other Nigerian "polities" (states) I can think of that did not engage in the transatlantic slave trade.

Astrology is bullshit.

fstranger3:
Did you guys notice that he looked stoned in that video?

He always looks like that in every picture I see of him. Don't know why.

http://www.edoworld.net/Edo_Warrior_Kingdom_Opposed_Atlantic_Slave_Trade.html

^^^

Mentions the interesting story of Willem Hogg.

"As slave ownership became more common in Europe, enterprising Portuguese began to send their slaves back to Africa as sailors and orderlies. Not only were these African mariners better able to live and work in the coastal climate, but the Portuguese owners kept their salaries as profit. In 1533 the ship Miseracordia left San Tome, an island colonized by the Portuguese about 320 kilometers south of the Niger Delta, with eighty newly taken slaves bound for Mina on the Gold Coast. Its crew was predominantly African. The African mariners killed the captain and sailed the ship to the Kingdom of Benin, where the Oba took charge of its European cannons. This event explains the founding of the Iwoki in Benin City, "a ward whose members had, among other functions, that of looking after the Oba's guns and cannons. The Iwoki date their foundations to Esigie's reign, " (Bradbury 1973:35). Ryder reports that although the Portuguese refused to supply firearms to rulers who had not accepted the Christian conversion of their people, gunpowder was listed as part of a ship's cargo bound for Benin in 1535 (1969:68), two years after the Miseracordia's armament was seized.”

"Obas' Portraits in Benin"
Author(s): Barbara Winston Blackmun
Source: African Arts, Vol. 23, No. 3, Special Issue: Portraiture in Africa, Part I (Jul., 1990),pp. 61-69+102-104

THEMOOR:
Olusegun Mobee
http://www.freemaninstitute.com/nigeria.htm

Nigeria - The Slave Trade
Gwatto, the port of Benin, became the depot to handle the ,  of all slaves sent across the Atlantic came from Nigeria. Over the period of the whole trade ,
countrystudies.us/nigeria/7.htm
http://countrystudies.us/nigeria/7.htm

The first link you gave only mentions the Republic of Benin (Republic du Benin), which is not Benin, Nigeria, but actually the country formerly known as Dahomey.

The second link you posted states:

"By 1471 Portuguese ships had reconnoitered the West African coast south as far as the Niger Delta, although they did not know that it was the delta, and in 1481 emissaries from the king of Portugal visited the court of the oba of Benin. For a time, Portugal and Benin maintained close relations. Portuguese soldiers aided Benin in its wars; Portuguese even came to be spoken at the oba's court. Gwatto, the port of Benin, became the depot to handle the peppers, ivory, and increasing numbers of slaves offered by the oba in exchange for coral beads; textile imports from India; European-manufactured articles, including tools and weapons; and manillas (brass and bronze bracelets that were used as currency and also were melted down for objets d'art). Portugal also may have been the first European power to import cowrie shells, which were the currency of the far interior.

Benin profited from its close ties with the Portuguese and exploited the firearms bought from them to tighten its hold on the lower Niger area. Two factors checked the spread of Portuguese influence and the continued expansion of Benin, however. First, Portugal stopped buying pepper because of the availability of other spices in the Indian Ocean region. Second, Benin placed an embargo on the export of slaves, thereby isolating itself from the growth of what was to become the major export from the Nigerian coast for 300 years. Benin continued to capture slaves and to employ them in its domestic economy, but the Edo state remained unique among Nigerian polities in refusing to participate in the transatlantic trade. In the long run, Benin remained relatively isolated from the major changes along the Nigerian coast."



The trade in slaves at "Gwatto" did not even last up to 30 years and it's not even clear that the slaves obtained there were actually captured or sold by the Binis themselves given that there is no evidence or mention of Benin's central army engaging in direct slave raiding. However, even if this were actually so, the amount of slaves estimated as being sold from this time is extremely modest. Part of the confusion arises because early European explorers referred to large parts of the entire Guinea coast as being "Benin" and attributing captives sold to the great power in the region. In reality some of the slaves leaving this region were Urhobos sold to Europeans by Itsekiri and Ijaw traders.

^^^^^

Why do the Somalilanders want to be separate from the Somalis?

aribisala0:
for me i believe religion of all kinds serve as a metaphor to deal with  the many unknowns and unknowables about human life. it is very useful but always a creation of man and therefore should be indigenous and relevant to a people's culture. when it is imposed from outside with the added message that our own creations are evil and we willingly particpate in that fallacy we have agreed to be enslaved for ever. that is our tragedy here.
for africans  to be beholden to foreign gods that did not account for us for more than 95% of the time that we have been on this planet is really confusing. my understanding is that some people now worship a jewish deity jehovah, a rather blood thirsty and genocidal character that was rebranded in europe and shipped to africa quite recently.my understanding is they can't quite work out whether he is now 1 or 3.europeans have convinced these people that their fathers worshipped stone images and idols. well africans are not that foolish. people need to find out more but that is the essence of slavery rather than using the most precious gift that other animals lack ,the brain,many fall back on; the great book says this and that without questioning where that book came from or who wrote it. but it is for sure a slavery and a tyranny which many dare not try escape from. just imagine a nigerian christian or moslem decides they want to follow ifa. their main concern will not be whether it is the right path or not but rather how will those people whose approval they desire react?? food for thought is that what religion is about??
jehovah is  the very same character that said it is a sin to menstruate and women must pay 2 pigeons every time they committed this monstrosity as a sin and guilt offering. what did he do with all those pigeons? about 20each for the 300000 women that came out of egypt whom he all killed in the desert over a 40 year period. what a god,this jehovah.pigeons that were sold exclusively by aaron and his brothers. this character, we are told said;
i am not a man that i should change my mind
so i guess all those africans worshipping him owe a quite lot of pigeons. if his antecedents are anything to go by payback time will be quite unpleasant for them.
funnily these religions have not succeeded in killing the african spirit completely but have incorporated many practices that are traditionally african. however the damage done is immense because many carry this subliminal message that they as black people are inherently bad and their people have not contributed any thing to humanity.
ifa for me therefore is a route to freedom and harmony internal and external

Excellent post.

small crowds

shesi:
nigeria is just not ready for nuclear power. the world would be very uneasy allowing nigeria nuclear options. who is going to sell nuclear rods to nigeria? have they thought about this?

a more realistic proposition is that nigeria invests heavily in Ghana's nuclear power project. It was announced this week that Ghana is on course for nuclear power generation by 2018. We are expecting IAEA experts in the country this month to finalize discussions for a location. ghana has experience handling nuclear power. Ghana has had a functioning nuclear reactor since the 60s. For research purposes but still, that is invaluable experience.

now a country like ghana will certainly not have a need for all that power by 2018. it's not very cost-effective for us so we hope to export heavily to the countries in the region. this project is extremely expensive. nigeria could come in an invest heavily, and be part of the process from scratch. the plant in ghana will serve nigeria's energy purposes for the next few decades or so. while nigeria learns from experience to build their own plant in the near future. the world will be less edgy.

or do you plan to re-invent the wheel like iran are trying to do and develop your own know-how from scratch. that is a waste of time. africa should be researching solar power. not nuclear.

on a lighter note. why does the nigerian president wear that ridiculous looking hat around everywhere. it's embarrasing. it looks comical.  fine, the attire is african so he can wear it with pride to show his african-ness but why top it up with that ridiculous looking oliver twist hat. i bet world leaders laugh behind his back all the time. you can tell in that picture obama is struggling to take the man seriously

Are you serious? What you just said is utterly ridiculous. Do you even know anything about solar power? Please read up on that field before just bandying it about as a viable option. Also, do you know anything about the possible advantages of "developing your own know-how" from scratch? Not that I think Nigeria could afford to waste money more desperately needed in other areas trying to go that route, but that path can't just be dismissed entirely with a wave of the hand.

Do you actually think Ghana could afford to develop nuclear power adequately to the point where it could support Nigeria's huge population without Nigeria ending up paying the majority of the bill (in which case, Nigeria might as well not bother dealing with Ghana, merely for reasons of convenience and control)? You don't seem to have  a good grasp of the amount of power that would be necessary to adequately (not barely) support Nigeria's population. That's why you asserted that this fantastical Ghana proposal of yours was more realistic.

And I'm not even in support of nuclear power for Nigeria, currently, for the record.

source?

superboi:
STOP Spreading Falsehood
I first saw this picture in june 2009 where it was reported to be by the original poster on facebook an excution of suspected witches and wizards in Central African Republic,
By the way look through all my posting on this forum, I am strongly Anti-Quattara. But please don't spread lie and hatred.

Thanks for this post.

hilarious thread

funny thread. . .

Somaliland:
Nigeria was part of the slave trade, correct or incorrect?

Correct.

amor4ce:
There is a reference to something about a being who carries prayers to the Almighty, the return of this being, and something that sounds like a divine trinity. It also sheds some light on the origin of certain practices like agriculture, the importance of "ori", and how the orishas used to be people like us. I do wonder whether or not the practitioners engage in hagiolatry. But one thing is certain, there is the belief in the existence of the Father of all that is. A tree of life is also mentioned, as are references to the number of years since creation (over 10,200 if I remember correctly). It also stresses the importance attached to the meaning of the word "eniyan" - the chosen ones.

As for me, I had and still have many questions so I bought a book, Odun Ifa (Ifa Festival) by Dr Abosede Emmanuel (a Catholic if I remember correctly), to study on my own. Unlike many people who call themselves Christians and Muslims and bash others without reasoning, I decided not to allow them shape my understanding of the Yoruba religion and throw away the baby with the bath water, but determined to use and ignite that spark of truth that my Creator deposited within me to reason. There's a set of books which I recommend and want to get myself, Ifism by C. Osamaro Ibie. I think there are nine volumes. I am curious about the origin of male circumcision and child naming why they are done on the eight day.

Interesting post.