₦airaland Forum

omo alaro:
Afterall, in nigeria, government officials are not corrupt, it is corruption that is official.

Funny (and tragic).

Whizkay: sharp islamic nigga

lol. this was funny to me for some reason



@ topic


Sanusi = chauvinist

I've read much of a book lately on Ahmadu Bello (by John N. Paden) which outlines his development strategies (such as spending 1/3 of the North's budget on education) and the rationale behind the northernization policy (in his own words and with supporting statements from associates) and I am finding it extremely difficult to see what it is that this man did wrong with respect to "northernization" either in policy or implementation.

I think later I'll post the chapter of that book in its entirety that deals with the issue of the Sardauna's development strategies. I think some of the posters on this forum need to see the "other side" of the "Northerners first in the North" argument and why it made/makes sense.

And if the Northern military leaders who ruled Nigeria after 1966 were even half as competent as this man, Northern Nigeria might be a very different place.

lol, no I've never head anything like that.  Most of the stories I've heard are from my Dad and I don't think he would tell me that kind of story and expect me to believe it. That's funny though.

lol, I've never heard of that story before. I guess everybody sees events from their own perspective.

I didn't say Benin didn't have any relationship with Ubulu-uku. The thing that didn't make sense to me was the idea of somebody in the capital city (the king or one of his subordinates) requesting somebody from outside of the city to minister to the king's health when the capital city itself had all those healers and herbalists. It's entirely possible, but the question I would have is why, in this particular city, where traditional medicine was so heavily practiced, would they need to do that?

I actually don't deny that the story is probably based on a real event, though. Isidore Okpewho (who is half Anioma Igbo, half Urhobo) recorded a very similar story in his book Once Upon a Kingdom: Myth, Hegemony, and Identity (which is about Benin vs. its neighbors), although in that case the person invited from Ubulu-uku to administer to the Oba of Benin's health was not the founder of Ubulu-uku. The doubts I have are whether this administering to the king's health actually happened (given that there were already herbalists and healers in Benin), or whether this was just what the person's intention upon going to Benin was (to administer to the king's health).

@ exotik

Good argument. My perception of Benin as a tightly controlled capital city with limited immigration, apart from that quote I posted, has to do with the nine gates it had over which watch was kept as noted both by oral tradition and written documents and the fact that visitors were kept under armed guard (so that no harm was done to them as strangers unfamiliar with the customs of the city) and that watch was kept over the roads leading from Benin City to other towns (like Ughoton). In fact, one of the justifications for the necessity of an eventual invasion of Benin given by Ralph Moor (the Niger Coast Protectorate's Consul-General) and J.R. Phillips (the deputy Consul-General) was the claim that Oba Ovonramwen was repeatedly stopping the very important (to Britain and to other groups in the region) trade in palm oil in the region by closing the roads. The book City of Blood Revisited: A new look at the Benin expedition of 1897 by Robert Home goes into detail about what led to the fall of Benin. It's a very interesting book.

With respect to Obaseki, certain Anioma groups were perhaps not viewed as non-Edo by the Edo, which would be a misconception, but one which would allow for them not to really be seen as foreigners.

And on the Obaseki family, it's interesting to note that in the story given of their own history, where they are descended from Anioma Igbo royalty, their family's ancestor did not actually immediately relocate to Benin:


"Chief Agho Obaseki was the great great grand son of the Obi of Nsukwa, in the now Aniocha region of the Delta State of Nigeria. The first Obi of Nsukwa himself was the son of King Ehengbuda (about 1578 A.D). Chief Agho Obaseki was the last child of his father, Ogbeide. To understand Agho’s fortune in life, it is necessary to trace how he became connected and the important role he played at the royal house in Benin. It all began with his great grand father, Prince Emokhua N’Obo (the native doctor) who had a dispute with his brother over the accession to the throne of their father, Obi of Nsukwa, during the time of King Akengbuda’s in about 1750 A.D. During King Akenghbuda’s reign, Prince Emokhua and his son, Osifo (Also known as Alias Oyoo) relocated to Isi, which is roughly 15 miles Southwest of Nsukwa. His departure from Nsukwa was a result of the bitter dispute with his brother over the throne of Nsukwa. In Isi, Prince Emokhua N’Obo subsequently settled down with his son, Osifo (Alias Oyoo) at the direction of King Akengbuda who was the supreme ruler of the entire Edo kingdom. "


So they were in Nsukwa, in modern Delta state.

Then they moved to Isi in modern Edo state.

Then from there, one of the family's grandsons found themselves in Benin later:

"However, when King Akengbuda passed to beyond, after a very long reign, King Obanosa (named so, because of his long stay as the heir apparent) succeeded him, but did not last long on the throne. Upon the passing away of King Obanosa, there was a political struggle and intrigues played by key members of the house of Iwebo, the highest of the palace associations. Due to these political intrigues by some of the high ranking chiefs in the house of Iwebo, Prince Ogbebor the second son was crowned, instead of Prince Erediauwa, the rightful heir. Soon, Prince Erediauwa was declared a fugitive by his brother Ogbebor, who quickly consolidated power. Prince Erediauwa’s flee from his brother Ogbebor landed him in Isi. Upon arriving in Isi, Prince Erediauwa met Osifo Oyoo, who was very sympathetic to the young Prince Erediauwa plight, because of the same predicament that befell his father Prince Emokhua N’Obo years before. They quickly connected, without much hard sell or conviction.

Osifo Oyoo was not only sympathetic to Prince Erediauwa’s plight, but went out of his way to help the young Prince, including housing him and being a part of his strategist to win back his throne. Since it was dangerous and suicidal for Prince Erediauwa to remain in Edo land or for anyone to be seen helping the young Prince, with his brother Prince Ogbebor on the throne and in control of the Edo army, he sought refuge in Ewohimi, his mother’s home town. Osifo instead ordered his young son, Ogbeide to accompany Prince Erediauwa as a guard to Ewohimi and serve him, while he himself continued to reside in Isi to execute some of the strategies to get him back on the throne. It was in Isi, Ogie (son of the Ezomo of Benin and one of the Uzama chiefs) [Ref. 1] who was also helping Prince Erediauwa met Osifo and they both coordinated their strategies.

When Prince Erediauwa finally defeated his brother Ogbebor, he was crowned and assumed the title King Osemwende. Chief Obaseki’s father, Ogbeide now a young man was rewarded with a lower chieftaincy title. Chief Ogbeide was highly trusted, having been with king Osemwende throughout his ordeal, without any waver of allegiance and was considered one of the members of the inner circle of King Osemwende. Although, Ogbeide started as Omada (the scepter bearer), the lowest rank in the palace, he nevertheless rose rapidly under King Osemwende’s reign. After King Osemwende passed to beyond, King Adolor ascended the throne in 1848 A.D. Chief Ogbeide was further rewarded and elevated in rank until he attained the position as the head of Ibiwe (one of the palace associations, the custodians of the Princes) and was titled the Inneh of Ibiwe. This later palace association is the third in rank to the other two associations, Iwebo and Iwegua and is divided into two, one headed by Chief Oshodi who is in charge of the King wives and harem and the other by the Inneh, who is charged with the raising of the heir apparent and princes. It was during Ogbeide’s role as the inneh of Ibiwe and being the custodian of the heir apparent, Agho his son became very close to Prince Idugbowa (later crowned King Ovonramwen in 1888)."

http://www.obaseki.org/1/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12&Itemid=1

The circumstances in which the Obaseki family found themselves in Benin seem unique, and they didn't just immigrate right into Benin, and when they eventually did (with Prince Erediauwa's army), there would have been good reason for them to be seen as Edo, even if their origin was actually Igbo.


I guess my idea of a cosmopolitan city is one where numerous people can just immigrate into it and live there freely without some higher authorities deciding to let them live there. That doesn't mean somebody from Nri, Arochukwu, Anioma land, Akure , Owo, Ijebu, Warri, Lagos, Ibadan, Oyo, Idah, Bonny, or Nupe land or wherever couldn't have eventually been living in Benin in the same way that Agho Obaseki eventually got to Benin, I'm just skeptical of the idea of people just walking in there and living there without special permission from the authorities and without being Edo or being seen as "related" to Edo.

And Benin's colonies seem to mainly have enjoyed a loose relationship where the ruler of those colonies paid some sort of tribute. That wouldn't necessarily preclude immigration from those places, but that sort of relationship wouldn't necessarily mean that there was immigration into the city such that people from those places actually lived in the city.

He was so famous as a herbalist that the Oba of Benin during his time invited him to Benin to prepare certain herbs for him. “Izo-Idayi”. This helped to prolong the life of the Oba and so he told his successor to invite Ezemu or his descendants to prepare the same medicine for him any time he came to the throne.

The one thing that always doesn't make sense to me about these kinds of stories is this idea that a major center of traditional religion, "magic", traditional medicine, and "paganism" in general invites somebody from what is (to them) an obscure or minor town. The legion of herbalists and various obo and ohen in Benin would have been enough, one would think, since they were quite engrossed in their own medicine.

Abagworo:
This further supports my view that Nri people were in Benin.

As was said in another thread, Benin was not a cosmopolitan city, and the kingdom was not one in which outside groups were permitted to live in Benin.

"None but natives are permitted to live there."

books.google.com/books?id=TP5AAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA770


The notion of Benin as some former "tower of Babel" (as bokohalal once put it) is a modern invention. I have no doubt that the outskirts of the kingdom would have seen occasional immigration, as with every other kingdom everywhere, but the notion of groups just immigrating into a tightly controlled capital city without being Edo isn't that plausible.

By the way, there were traditional doctors and herbalists in Nigeria from places other than the major religious centers. One need not be from Edo, Udo, Urhonigbe, Ugo etc. to be an Edo herbalist, and the same can be said for other groups.

ndu_chucks:
@Physics, I'm glad you agree that Omoigui's books are shiity.

lol, I haven't read any books published by anyone with the last name Omoigui.

It's just that every time you type something on this forum that picture comes to mind and I wonder why it is that that picture makes more sense than anything you've ever posted.

lol, ndu chuks

Do you know what the following picture means, by any chance?


https://drawger.com/stahl/shows/AOC%20Beyond%20Plagiarism72.jpg

@ threadstarter


[img]http://ewp.rpi.edu/hartford/library/images/plagiarist.gif[/img]



Change your ways. You know what you did.

igbaodun:
Yoruba BBallers >>>>>>>>>>>> All Edo BBallers? Agree?

Yeah, lol.

There is that whole numerical advantage factor, though. And I don't think there was anybody of Edo descent in the NBA other than Iguodala.

Ufeolorun:
Physics.
I get why you r being protective any ways.Babangida if you ask him will tell you is Hausa connections,for Danjuma,I would like to see how they largely bear Hausa names.
Akoko(minus Edo) can never be a co-incidence,
It's too glaring man,for this to be a source of argument.
Smile
Safe!

Babangida is a Gwari/Gbagyi man and Danjuma is a Jukun.

Do you know that the actual ethnic groups that are in Akoko-Edo are known and that their languages have even been studied?

Akoko Edo is a modern 20th century label, and it makes perfect sense since they are Edo (Edoid) groups in the Akoko region.

This thread is ridiculous.

The Dream >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Linsanity

It's not even close.

Ngodigha1:
The other part of Akoko in Ondo state are Edo lands recently occupied by some Yoruba speaking people. The Akokos in Ondo state are predominantly Edo.

This is completely and totally false.

Ufeolorun,


Danjuma is a Hausa name. Is Theophilus Danjuma suddenly Hausa because of that?


Babangida is a Hausa name. Is Ibrahim Babangida Hausa because of that?


As for the rest of what you typed, "Akoko Edo" is a modern label that arose in the early 20th century. It just means they are "Edo" (in the sense of being Edoid, not in the sense of being "Bini" speaking (the "Bini" language is actually called Edo)) people in the Akoko region.

edo.girl:
If Edo State has a credible claim, I'm surprised they haven't pursued it all this while. In any event, they should throw it in the open with details such as location, names etc.

I think the claim may have something to do with Oben: http://www.edo-nation.net/2006okpa5.htm


But I doubt that any oil wells were actually appropriated from Edo state. I think Oshiomhole is grandstanding and feeling indignation over a non-existent problem and has been misinformed. I may be wrong, but I doubt that there is a real case here.

Also, Pa Omouigi's comments do not constitute fact until they positively pass the test of a formal public scrutiny. So long as they remain unproven, his comments don't count for much I'm afraid.

What do you mean "unproven"? How is he supposed to "prove" that what he said happened?   With secret audiotapes, photographs, and documents?

He named some names and made very specific accusations about the actions of specific people. The only thing that doesn't count for much is the idea that a totally unknown octogenarian concocted this story for no other reason than to expose himself to possible public squabbles/disputes or public embarrassment while in his golden years.

A suit alleging libel is definitely something that has  to pass a formal test of scrutiny.

Re: Akoko Edo/Afemai thing, this is another inaccurate Wikipedia story. Anyone can go on Wikipedia and make entries - well, almost. Yet, people quote these Wikipedia entries as some sort of absolute authority on things. Even assuming this Afemai story has some truth in it - one thing is certain, a significant part of Akoko Edo do not fall into this Afemai plot.

With the internet these days, individuals are at a whim, able to make up and revise history to suit their purpose. We see it all the time on sites like Nairaland, Wikipedia etc.

The only groups in Akoko-Edo that could be confused for Yoruba are the Ebiroid groups. Can anyone here name any one actual Yoruba group in Akoko-Edo for the edification of the rest of us? Merely speaking Yoruba does not make one Yoruba just as speaking Hausa does not suddenly make one Hausa. Groups in the Middle Belt that speak Hausa instead of their own languages are still not Hausa.


And names are not a definite indicator either. There are some Igbo and Yoruba with Edo last names, but they are Igbo and Yoruba and don't claim to be Edo.

That said, I think Afemai really applies to Owan and Etsako, not to all the groups in Edo north, so I agree with you that that wikipedia entry is probably not accurate. That doesn't mean that Akoko Edo is actually Yoruba though.

Does anyone even know what the names and locations of the oil wells supposedly appropriated from Edo state are?

Until names and locations are given, all of this is just arguing over nothing. Oshiomhole is definitely not infallible and he could have been misled with false information.

Nnenna1:
I find interesting that in a cultural forum meant to highlight positives of individual tribes,

If one starts with a completely false premise to begin with, it's easy to start believing whatever other stuff one constructs on top of that. There is nothing anywhere indicating that this forum is meant specifically to highlight positives. One would want to dwell on the positives rather than the negatives, but there's nothing stopping people from discussing negatives.

negatives are ascribed to Igbos in particular.

Can you actually produce examples of what it is you're talking about?

This forum (the culture section) is pretty neutral, and if you go through the pages of the forum, you'll find that there is not some "Igbo persecution" trend going on anywhere.

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-830677.0.html

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-740108.0.html

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-776967.0.html

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-59913.0.html

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-633917.0.html

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-133044.0.html

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-783250.0.html

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-783572.0.html

This stuff is all in your head. The culture section is an equal opportunity forum with regard to discussing practices or trends that can be viewed negatively and it clearly has been for a while.

Whatever the intentions of the threadstarter may actually have been, there was no particular reason that the thread had to have any animosity or ill feeling in subsequent posts, since the OP did not even start the thread on a critical or denigrating note and people could either have ignored him or supplied him with an answer to his question.

Well, I never agreed with the claims about "oldest kingdom in Nigeria", but I think if you want to nip this thing in the bud, you would have to write your own books and articles specifically countering this. Anyway, no professional scholars actually working in West African archaeology and history take this "oldest kingdom" stuff seriously or even mention it.

There is no evidence that Nri was the "first kingdom" in Nigeria, but what some people are claiming (although perhaps not with the appropriate language or wording) is that Nri is the most ancient of the "surviving" kingdoms, which is a far more plausible claim, except that it assumes that the limited extent of Nigerian archaeology so far is definitive and it ignores the possibility that other still extant/"surviving" kingdoms, in Igboland or elsewhere in Nigeria, existed but were not bronze casters at that time. So we are actually somewhat in agreement, it was just that I disagreed with certain specific statements you made.

aribisala0:
Yes my issue is we have always been told that Igbos are republicans who do not have kings.  So we must ask
As such those burial sites might have been of kings or noblemen.

Now we are asked to accept on the basis of the findings that there was a kingdom at Nri. I am saying that scholastic integrity dictates one search for corrobotative data.We cannot write a millenium of history of the basis of Shaw's excavation alone. I do not wish to make that the nub of discussion and am quite happy having raised my doubts to concede that it is/was a Kingdom



Of course the sites were discovered long before Shaw went in about 30 years or so that is common knowledge.

I think you confound cultural continuity with Reginal continuity ie a continuous line of kings going back a thousand years. I could not possibly suggest that the NRI people do not have history/traditions that is not my view. I am just aking are the people there now the descendants of those who buried those things and why do we believe so. Afterall we know that the inhabitants on Ilorin e.g. today are not necesarily descendants of those who lived there 1000 years ago

We know that the metal casting skills are still around in Benin to this day whereas those skills had been forgotten at Igbo Ukwu at the time of the find and cannot be reproduced. More importantly if those castings are linked with kings of which there is a long line of succession one would expect to find many more sites like that,

Read through this:

http://www.igbofocus.com/html/nri_is_the_focus_in_igbo_.html

With the exception of Adiele Afigbo's two quoted statements on Benin connections there (about knowledge of Arochukwu and about coronation rituals involving Nri, or even the existence of any Bini tradition even mentioning Nri), which can be shown to be complete fabrications with no support in any of the literature, it would seem most of the quotes there are accurate. Also, ignore the "founding dates" given at the end for the various other kingdoms, as those all have very little support and are selectively chosen for the purposes of the author's argument.

I think once you read the quotes on Nri from the different pre-Igbo-ukwu observers there, you would understand better why there is nothing unreasonable about the attribution of these works to the Nri kingdom.

aribisala0:
@Physics a kingdom is an independent territory that has a sovereign leader is a kingdom
What do you mean by [b]Advanced City states. [/b]Is there a claim that Nri was an "Advanced City State"

Let us NOT confuse matters. Let us confine ourselves to the use of the term kingdom here

Many of the original angles,saxon,celtic and other kingdoms were small and quite primitive from all accounts.

The territtory in Nigeria is not homogenous but quite diverse.

We know that in Nok territory e.g Jos,Taruga they had learnt to smelt Iron and ride horses long before many European tribes. 500 BC

There were early kingdoms in what is known as Western Sudan eg Old Ghana



Our territory is not dissimilar and there is nothing that obviates Kingdom formation.

A kingdom is a political state whose leader is a king or queen. You seemed to take issue with the claim that the Igbo-ukwu bronzes were specifically associated with a kingdom rather than a non-kingly state, but you simultaneously suggested that other archaeological finds (such as terracotta works) were associated with kingdoms, even though there is no direct and indisputable evidence that at the time that these works were created, a monarchical state existed in those areas. Sometimes things have to be inferred. The depiction of a figure on horseback, the bronze cast of a scabbard, etc. in Igbo-Ukwu bronzes would lead to some reasonable conclusions that are not written down.

aribisala0:
Regarding the issue of Nri as a surviving Kingdom from a specific date

There is a massive LACUNA between NRI today and those findings  and certainly no evidence of any continuity between The present and the past.

No evidence of the skills that went into those bronzes or that the people of Nri are descendants directly of Igbo Ukwu.

All the narratives I have seen have been published after the Igbo ukwu find Not before that is quite curious.

The articles of M.D.W. Jeffreys on the "Umundri" (Umu Nri) and "Eze Ndri" (Eze Nri), some of which are accessible on JSTOR, predate Thurstan Shaw's findings.

In at least one of these articles he notes the "copper" (probably bronze) ornaments worn in the kingship installation ritual.

In two other articles, he notes the tradition that the "eze Ndri" (Eze Nri) has control over locusts.

This stuff is from the 1930s.

Bronze castings of locusts were later found by Thurstan Shaw at Igbo-Ukwu.

Now how is that not evidence of cultural continuity over multiple centuries?

amor4ce:
Didn't the Igbo (eg the Obi of Onitsha and his entourage) come out of Edo?

Can we please leave these deliberately provocative and bizarre claims out of historical discussions please? All that these kind of claims do is make people annoyed.

aribisala: IT REALLY IS AN INSULT FOR ANY EUROPEAN TO TELL US WE WERE SO BACKWARD WE HAD NO KINGDOMS BEFORE THE 10th CENTURY

1. Aribisala, this statement seems to be assuming that every place on earth is equally favorable to the development of advanced city states and thus the appearance of advanced city states or kingdoms can be attributed solely to the sophistication, ability, or "culturally advanced" nature of the ethnic group or "race" that was responsible for that city state. Compare North America to Mesoamerica (approximately from Mexico to Guatemela) where the Mayans and Aztecs lived and to parts of South America where the Incas lived. Even between North America and other parts of the Americas, there are subtle, but important differences - for example, the very high amount of rainfall in some parts of Mesoamerica that led to a very high surplus of agricultural production in these areas. This resulted in the Mesoamericans taking steps to develop methods to store this agricultural surplus, and then to protect it. These agricultural storage and protection sites became cities and the development of cultural centers of Mesoamerican "civilization" was really rooted in the agricultural abundance in parts of Mesoamerica, which was due to the unique geography of the area.

It's not really that absurd to claim that certain areas were only able to develop centralized polities at much later times, because the geography of each area of the world is different. The Olmec culture of Mesoamerica developed centralized polities many centuries before the culture that produced the mounds of the Cahokia culture in North America, for example. The reason for this almost certainly has to do with the superiority of the Mesoamerican environment [/b]with respect to the creation of an agricultural surplus and also to the subsequent creation of "civilization", not to the superiority of the Mesoamerican indigenous peoples to the North American indigenous peoples. These groups, the Mesoamericans and North Americans, were "racially" similar and even have some cultural similarities here and there, and yet there is this significant disparity in the level of "sophisticated civilization" attained in the two areas and the time periods at which they were able to create centralized polities. [b]It's not about ethnicity or race, but about geography.

By the way, several modern day European groups did not have a significant kingdom prior to the 10th century (think of eastern Europe, for example), probably also because of geography and isolation. Kievan Rus, for example, only dates to around the 10th century. Also, consider the enormous gap in time between the development of Greek city states (such as Mycenae) and the development of Western European city states of any historical significance. This doesn't in any way mean that the Greeks were an inherently superior or more "forward" race or ethnic group than the Germans, Swedish, French, etc.


2. Now with respect to your overall point, I think what you're really unhappy about is the claim that the Nok culture had no "kingdoms" and the suggestion that the Ife kingdom only dates to the period of its greatest artistic florescence. I actually agree entirely with this assessment because of certain specific terracotta works of the Nok that I have seen, which show what are unquestionably figures who hold some sort of high social or political rank, but the statement that Nri is the "oldest kingdom" in Nigeria, should be read more like "Nri is the oldest surviving kingdom" in Nigeria. The fact that people deliberately leave out the "surviving" bit is either just sloppiness or it suggests that the promoters of this claim are genuinely ignorant of the possibility of earlier kingdoms existing in Igboland, Hausaland, or where ever,before the bronzes of Igbo-ukwu. Even then, as I implied before, the existence of Ife as a city state is not dependent on the age of the Ife artwork, so the claim about Nri being the "oldest surviving" would still be tenuous, since Ife could also be claimed to be an equally old kingdom whose traditional institutions survive to the present.


3. Also, with respect to the question of "kingdom" vs. "republic" vs. "theocracy" (ruled by a priest or council of priests) or other form of government, I think you're just splitting hairs. If it could somehow be proven that the society that made the Igbo-ukwu bronzes was a republic at that time, then the same people who are claiming "oldest kingdom" would just claim "oldest city state", although that is equally unprovable.

There is no evidence that the Nok culture, even considering the figures riding horses, even considering the figure holding a fly whisk, and even taking into account the figures wearing military helmets, were necessarily a "kingdom" rather than a republic. So the same objection you have with respect to Igbo-ukwu and the associated polity being claimed to be a kingdom could equally be directed at the Nok culture and its associated polity or polities. We should instead talk about city states or polities and ignore the form of government, since it's obviously not what is in contention.

4. I think the Nri kingdom is definitely connected to the Igbo-ukwu bronzes and I am certain that there are virtually no scholars working in African archaeology or history that now doubt this, so it's bizarre to see you questioning this so strongly as though the jury were still out about this. By the way, the fact that the bronze casting tradition of that area does not survive into the present has no bearing on anything. The casting tradition of virtually everywhere else in Nigeria besides Benin does not survive into the present, and the modern Benin casting is a conscious and very deliberate effort to attempt to continue the traditions of the past.

5. On Benin, sufficient archaeological work on Benin has not been done to start assigning dates like "7th century". The Edo earthworks actually date to the 8th century (700 AD), but it cannot be proven that they in any way indicate the existence of a kingdom there at that time. All that has been done with respect to Benin's archaeology is that certain places in and around where the Benin palace was at one time located prior to 1897 have been excavated by Graham Connah. He excavated about 5 different sites. For a city of that degree of importance to African history, five excavations is a pitiful amount.

The efforts by Connah were great efforts for which he must be commended, of course, but they do not address the issue of the political centralization or the early archeology of Benin. Five excavations of five sites in or near the land of the old (1897) Benin palace in the early 1960s by Graham Connah do not amount to an account of the archaeology of Benin, and indeed, the excavation of only five areas of any place that was once a major ancient city anywhere cannot amount to an account of the archaeology of that place, despite the title chosen by that great archaeologist for his book.

This lack of archaeological work is definitely not anyone's fault, however, given the economic/developmental conditions of Nigeria, the lack of funding for continued extensive archaeological work, the very difficult soil conditions for archaeological excavations in Benin (Connah specifically mentioned the impediment that the "relatively expensive" nature of archaeological research in general posed, and also the huge problem that the red sand of Benin posed for archaeological work in his article "Archaeology in Benin" (1972))  and even more importantly, the overlay of so many modern buildings and some roads over ancient Benin in recent decades (in the 1950s and 60s modern Benin city was significantly smaller (as noted by people from the older generation) and there was much less on the ground to get in the way of archaeological exploration within the city). 

I do not think satisfactory archaeological work will be carried out anytime soon with respect to Benin, and I do not believe that a truly satisfactory archaeological survey of Benin ever could be carried out after so much has been built over the city after it was burnt down. I think the window for a truly extensive archaeological study has basically closed (hence the attempts at "rescue operations" and "salvage operations" by some of the archaeologists that did do work in Benin, hoping to beat that rapidly closing window) and that the money is not there anyway.

The same problem of archaeology and Benin could also be applied to some other places in Nigeria, but at present, the archaeological studies of Benin are grossly inadequate (more so than for some other famous cultural/historical centers of Nigeria). I think you should limit your contention to Ife or Nok in terms of age, since the archaeological studies of Benin at present are not adequate to make proclamations about the age of the kingdom.

6. Honestly, if I were to make an informed guess, I would say that Northern Nigeria, where the earliest sophisticated Nigerian artwork has been found (the Nok culture) and the earliest pavements have been found (at Daima),  are where the earliest kingdoms would have been, but there is nothing to prove that any kingdoms from that time period survived to the present.

I don't like the Sardauna, and I have a dislike for ANY African leaders that (obviously) saw "Mohammedan" or "Islamic" culture as superior to indigenous African cultures, but, after reading his autobiography, I have to say that his real beef, if he had any, would have been with the Yoruba and the AG especially. There was this condescending, contemptuous tone towards southerners that popped up in certain parts of his autobiography, but it seemed to reach its apex when discussing AG politicians.

Part of his indignation at the actions of certain AG politicians in 1953, for example, may have been justified, but even then, I don't think he made any outright tribalist statements against any Yoruba, although there is this almost palpable contempt for the AG in his autobiography.

The "anti-Igbo" sentiment from the Sardauna seems to be merely about economic competition, and part of his rationale for countering the impending southern economic hegemony with the Northernization policy, in my honest opinion. If another ethnic group were the ones playing that role of going to the North and dominating in certain specific positions, he probably would have made the comment about that group instead.

*Just stating my observation and opinion, before anybody crucifies me.*

amor4ce:
Reconciliation?

Yeah, sure. Once again, I apologize for my laughing. Didn't really think it'd come off as offensive when I made the comment, but if it had occurred to me, I wouldn't have made the comment. Anyway, peace.

amor4ce:
I haven't said that the Edo are definitely the descendants of Esau but similar to Elder Negro_Ntns I wanted to ask if you were mulatto, and I decided to refrain.

WTF?

What is wrong with some people?

Disagreement with certain specific claims of cultural and physical diffusion = half-black?

Are you this confused in real life, or would you actually, if debating another person on a historical claim in real life, consider asking if the person was a "mulatto" (which is actually an insult that implies that blacks are the "donkeys" compared to white "horses", though it has been so frequently used that the real meaning is forgotten by most), and upon receiving a confirmation or denial, decide whether what the person was saying had any validity?

I didn't accuse you of inventing history, rather I referred to your comments and said they and not you reminded me of Naiwu Osahon.

"Your comments remind me of the likes of Naiwu Osahon who in my opinion put in lengthy efforts at inventing history eg Edo history"

The comment is there for anybody to read. If I misread the import of the comment, then fine, you didn't make that accusation and that was a misinterpretation on my part. But let's not pretend that this comment couldn't very easily be interpreted in the manner that I did.

why do you question the suggestions of some that this language sub-group extends into Africa?

smh 

I wrote in plain English, and somehow you're not understanding anything I said.




Let me just depart the thread, since this discussion is becoming a waste of time for both of us.

I acknowledge defeat on this issue and I am no longer interested in discussing this with you. Bye.

Amor4ce and Negro Ntns,

This excerpt from an article I posted in that thread in which I was debating with Rossik, although dealing particularly with the case of the Akan rather than West Africa in general, neatly summarizes the spirit of my approach to the scattered links (and they do exist, that's not really what is in dispute here) between West African cultures and Northeast African cultures, the Sudan, Egypt, or the Levant:

"The search for linguistic similarities occurred mainly in Mrs. Meyerowitz's earlier volumes; in her latest the emphasis is on cultural likenesses, and specifically likenesses in magico-religious institutions. Here again the method has been employed by many diffusionists. But in this case the methodology is more solidly grounded. This is not to say that some of Mrs. Meyerowitz's tabulated comparisons between Carthaginian and Akan deities are not rather tenuous, while her account of North African history is in places marked by somewhat imaginative reinterpretations. One has only to compare her account of the marriage of Juba II to Cleopatra Selene (I958, p. 130 and footnote) with that in K. D. Mathews, Cities in the Sand (1957) to realize the sort of latitude she permits herself. Nevertheless, there are undoubtedly similarities between the institutions of the Akan and those of the Middle East, as Bowdich, Williams, Danquah, and others had already noted. [size=14pt]The diffusionist sees in these resemblances indications of the spread of cultural traits from one area to the other, even in the absence of other information. Moreover, the method of diffusion is usually assumed to be migration rather than contact in the course of trade or other modes of intercourse. Theories of diffusion, whether by migration or other means, explain the existence of cultural similarities only when archaeological or other additional evidence is forthcoming. In the first place, such information is required to establish the direction of diffusion. In default of this, there is as much reason to suppose that' divine kingship ' travelled from West Africa to the Near East as vice versa; or 'totemism' from Ashanti to Carthage. Where such evidence is not available, it may well be that cultural similarities should be related to an underlying uniformity of culture[/size]. As Frankfort has insisted, supporting his point with some telling archaeological evidence, [size=15pt]'resemblances between modern Africans and ancient Egyptians are not always emanations from Egypt' but can often be related to a common cultural substratum[/size] ( 948, p. 348). Nor does this exhaust the possibilities. For example, the phenomenon of 'divine kingship', and I use the concept in the undifferentiated Frazerian sense rather than with the more specific meaning given to it by Frankfort, has been explained in quite different terms by Professor Evans-Pritchard. 'Kingship everywhere and at all times ', he claims, 'has been in some degree a sacred office. Rex est mixta persona precipitate sacerdote.' An institution of this kind requires an explanation which applies to kingship in general, not to certain selected states alone. And it is just such a sociological interpretation that Evans-Pritchard offers: '. . . a king symbolizes a whole society and must not be identified with any part of it. He must be in the society and yet stand outside it and this is only possible if his office is raised to a mystical plane. It is the kingship and not the king who is divine' (Evans-Pritchard, 1948, p. 36). Totemism in its most general form has been the subject of similar hypotheses by Durkheim and Radcliffe-Brown. These are but two of a large number of institutions, such as the levirate, matriliny, and polygamy, the distribution of which it would be most unwise to attempt to explain by diffusionist assumptions, except in some specific instances where positive evidence was available. [size=15pt]We may therefore conclude that while the comparison of customary behaviour is from one angle less hazardous for diffusionist reconstruction than the selection of linguistic similarities in that undoubted and significant likenesses do exist, there may well be alternative and more cogent explanations for the presence of similar religious institutions (such as totemism) or similar systems of descent (such as matriliny) than diffusion by migration or other means from an assumed centre of origin. And these alternatives are too rarely considered by those engaged in ethnohistorical reconstructions.[/size] "

"Ethnohistory and the Akan of Ghana"
Author(s): Jack Goody
Source: Africa: Journal of the International African Institute, Vol. 29, No. 1 (Jan., 1959), pp.67-81
Published by: Cambridge University Press on behalf of the International African Institute
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/1157500 .

Amor4ce and Negro Ntns.

I don't have much interest in responding to this thread beyond what I already have, but I will post something in the next post that should give you my general answer to the opening post of the thread. If you read it carefully, you'll understand that my objection is not really to the claims of certain cultural or linguistic similarities/links between West Africans and other groups elsewhere, but some of the explanations sometimes given for these similarities.

Negro Ntns, I actually don't, in principle, object to the claim of a conquering group migrating from elsewhere an establishing itself over another people, but what I'm skeptical of is the claim that this is always responsible for the underlying culture of that group or their language. If you can eventually prove Canaanite or Egyptian overlords established themselves in central Nigeria and migrated elsewhere, fine. The implications of this are probably obvious to everybody. But I was merely saying that despite what you might think, certain languages are still not "Afroasiatic" in terms of their grouping with other languages. There are whole societies devoted to the study of languages. Why should I believe that the vast majority of linguists can't figure out that Yoruba is closer to Afroasiatic languages than it is to other African languages with very different and unique characteristics and vocabulary (even if they all share some words or characteristics of the language families of the African continent)? It's just skepticism on my part and this thread was addressed "especially" to me, by the OP so I made it a point to explain the reason for my perceptions in detail. It's not some personal effort on my part try to define Yoruba language or culture, like you might seem to think.

Dudu_Negro:
I remember where this came from, you are feeding off the delusion and eurocentric mind of your fellow "oyinbo-is-correct" compatriot, physics.

I go with evidence and logic, not skin color. "Oyinbo-is-correct" is a warped mentality, but "anyone with my own skin color is always correct" is also a misguided mentality.

Im not saying Physics is married to white, but hey, I dont know that he is not.

lmao

I'm not married and not dating a white girl, but  I gotta admit, this was a pretty funny little jab. A bit below the belt, but funny nonetheless.

amor4ce:
PhysicsQED, was that the best you could come up with, referring to your perception of delusion and inferiority complex?

If you actually think I couldn't have given a far more sarcastic and caustic response than I did, you're deceiving yourself. I threw you a soft little jab there because you seemed genuinely offended over my laughing.

With all the experiences you have accumulated from birth couldn't you have done better? Is the act of assidiously trying to put down the person of your fellow as against his argument indicative of maturity and wisdom? I started this thread without any intent to put you down as can be seen in the first post. But look at what you have done in return. I aslo did not refer to the Jebusites in this thread. By the way, since you pointed at delusion concerning the Biblical Jebusites, know that in that same Bible is mentioned a man called Caleb who today is cited for demonstrations of faith - his ancestors were originally Kenezzite but he had an inheritance in Israel.

If you re-read some of your posts on this forum, such as your Edo = Edomites stuff, you would understand why it's sometimes hard to take you seriously.

You said that the Ijebu monarchy acknowledges migration from Eastern Chad. I laughed. Then you accused me of inventing history and mocked my "big grammar", which I didn't even care about or get offended at, even if this could actually be perceived as an insult. Then I said that the stuff you were writing about Idu and Edo was nonsense, which it is, and that you have a tendency to write nonsense. Then I apologized if my laughter about the Chadian origin of Ijebu offended you (for that only). And yet you're still trying to start some sort of "internet fight" after I already apologized for an insult, but I'm supposed to believe that I'm the one spoiling for a fight.

I think you got a bit touchy there (it happens to all of us sometimes, though). If I were as touchy as you over these stories of origin, I could also be offended at your habit of repeatedly suggesting that the Edo are descended from Esau - a man who sold his birthright for a bowl of soup, and one of the supreme losers in all of world mythology, history, or religion - in complete disregard of any Edo person's accounts or that of any Edo monarch, but I have yet to show umbrage over your efforts to rewrite the history of the origin of my ethnic group.

I started the topic in response to the views you put forward on this thread and wondered if you would immediately respond - if at all -

I already responded. Afroasiatic languages are a subgroup of the language families of Africa. The fact that they extend into Asia says something about  history.

since you mentioned there that you "had other things to do this week and in the following weeks"

Yeah, I have a life and goals. That's not uncommon.

have you long harboured disdain against me?

Don't start feeling too important on an anonymous message board. I might laff some more, and other readers might mistake you for someone with "delusions of grandeur".