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Reality check to Papabrowne, (from oduasolja's response): |
Well I honestly didn't check all the responses (25 pages), but I got the impression that it was mostly politics from both sides, but if you're right, you're right. |
Why is there a refinery in Kaduna? Something that will never be explained. |
[duplicate post, edited] |
I think it goes both ways. Some people on both sides (East and West) were seriously discussing the question of cultural affinity, while others were making political statements for the chess game. |
Papabrowne, I don't see what's so flattering to your "ethnic ego" about other groups using your group as a pawn in an unending online political "chess game". This thread was mostly politics, not really cultural. I didn't see the same motivations that you did in the thread, and I think you're a little naive. And the moat that you mentioned was already mostly deteriorated decades ago. The parts they are trying to preserve now are a mere fragment of what was once there, so I wouldn't get your hopes up about seeing it, just so you know in advance. |
NRI PRIEST:There are stereotypes about every group (such as prostitution), and as you correctly observed, they are usually based on an element of reality, but I think the analysis given, the reason it was given (to explain certain perceptions in pre-1967 Nigeria) and the context it was given in made it more nuanced than just a repetition of stereotypes. Of the things you mentioned, (international) prostitution is the only one in which the Binis are any more predominant than other Nigerians, and I don't think the Oba of Benin is unaware of the prostitution issue with Benin: http://medicalmissionariesofmary.com/index.php/nigeria/367-preventing-human-trafficking-in-nigeria https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-513690.0.html Why the Binis are more inclined to this sex trafficking business abroad is a question that hasn't really been answered, but it's a completely legitimate question, even if the idea that the Binis are more inclined than others might be offensive to me or other people personally. Part of the perception of the Igbos as more willing to do menial jobs in Oba Erediauwa's account, might have something to do with some of the "menial" jobs some of them took up in Benin. For example, much of the labor force on rubber plantations owned by Edo in Benin were Igbo at one time (at least according to R.E. Bradbury). I don't really agree that Igbos are naturally more inclined to do menial jobs than other Nigerians, but that's my opinion. Others might disagree based on what they've seen. As for why I don't really view that particular quote as an "insult" or "attack" on the Igbo is that it's a two-way statement: "Igbos are more inclined to do a lowly job than others" and "Igbos are inclined or more willing to work harder or at a more difficult job ("scale the highest mountain" than others". The two statements are clearly related and if one believes the latter, then it wouldn't be surprising if one believes the former.There is another two way statement in those selected quotes as well: "Igbos will buy up the property in 'another man's land' rather than remain as tenants and the indigenous groups will complain of fear of Igbo domination" and "One can also say that it's the stupidity of the indigenous group in selling their land that is the problem". |
And let the record also note that this thread wasn't started by an Edo person, and the vast majority of responders are non-Edo. |
^^^^^^ Nobody in Benin is even thinking about you. Go back to wherever you came from and stay there. If not that Oba Erediauwa had worked in the eastern region for over a decade and seen firsthand why the non-Igbos there that disliked Igbos disliked them and how this played out in the run up to the civil war, you would not even have anything to be complaining about. Was he supposed to write that in the eastern region, before the civil war, everything was merry and blissful between all Igbos and non-Igbos even when that wasn't the truth and there was a specific reason for their complaints? When the Midwest tried to break away from the West, "impending economic colonization" wasn't really given as one of the major reasons. When the COR state was proposed on the other hand. . . |
Oba Akenzua II did not write the quotes posted by oduasolja and reposted by jason123; rather that was Oba Erediauwa, who chose to work in the civil service in the Eastern region for about 13 years (1952-1965). Oba Akenzua's NCNC leanings and his coordination with the Zikists suggests a somewhat different outlook. Most of those quotes are taken out of context anyway. The part of the book relating to the eastern region is actually trying to explain why some others came to dislike the Igbo in the run up to the civil war, despite the "adventurousness" and "industry" attributed to them, and why some of that dislike persists to this day. Some people can pretend this dislike didn't actually exist if they want, but history paints a different picture. We all know the COR state issue was not merely about politics. Anyway, while parts of that selection of quotes are offensive, there is not really any outright dislike of Igbos stated there or even implied. There is criticism, and then balances of those criticisms with positives. |
Obiagu1:Well, Olokun, Ogun, Esu, and a few other deities come to mind. Edo interaction with groups such as Ilaje led to adoption of some aspects of Yoruba religion. There are a few other religious similarities and borrowings, but it would take a while to track them down and post them, so I'm not going to do any detailed breakdown of the religious similarities. |
^^^ Is that article still being quoted like it's really a refutation? The Binis had never even heard of an Ooni prior to British colonialism. They knew about an Oghene (a ruler holding an Edo title) though. That's just one of the issues with the slant of that article. I don't think I want to derail this thread into another discussion of that disagreement, but the skepticism about the account given as original or authoritative is hardly without justification. |
I think this thread is pointless. If Nigeria dissolves, meetings will be held by those with clout, discussions will take place between power brokers, and those groups that want to form alliances will form alliances. Besides that, there doesn't seem to be much point to these kind of discussions. @ Obiagu A major component of culture is religion. I think that is the issue (traditional religion) that your claim (about a "myth") sidesteps or evades. |
ezeagu:Yeah, my mistake there. It's only a three out of four for the Yoruba-Igala correspondence. Yoruba did not have "Ahor"/"Afo". Oyeko corresponded to Okuo/Nkwo/Ukwo Iwori corresponded to Orie/Oye Eji corresponded to Eken/Eke But my point is there isn't a four to four correspondence between the Igbo and Igala days, and the day that's the odd one out (Ede) can be easily explained by the last Yoruba direction, "Odi". Saying Igala "Ede" is Igbo "Eke" like you did doesn't really make sense, since, Igala already has an Eke in addition to Ede. As for Onu and Oni, "i" and "u" seem to trade places sometimes in Yoruba names from what I've read, but yeah like you said, there could also be an Onu and Olu correspondence (n and l are known to trade places in languages). |
@ exotik, uwese |
shymmex:Now apply that logic to your claim about the Itsekiris "existing before" the Edo because they occupy the coast and reach the appropriate conclusion. Making claims about who "existed before" another group based on geography is ridiculous. |
shymmex:No. |
ezeagu:I should have written "exactly like the Yoruba compass directions". I already gave you my interpretation in that thread of why these names really refer to the names of the directions of the "four corners of the earth", and I'm not going to rehash that long drawn out argument here again, but it should suffice to say that claiming that they took three days from Igbo market days and then suddenly decided to take one day from Yoruba compass directions is absurd and it's far more likely that the correspondence between the four Yoruba compass directions and the four Igala weekdays is not accidental. That three of the Yoruba compass directions, three of the Igala weekdays, and three of the Igbo/Bini weekdays correspond makes sense in light of the interpretation of these names as direction names for the world corners, but not when interpreted with respect to spirits/deities, since the Yoruba compass directions names and the four Yoruba deities at/from those corners are entirely distinct. As for Nri & Idah, if you google even harder, you might also come across a certain article on jstor where M.D.W (Mervyn David Waldegrave) Jeffreys was given the impression that Nri ("Ndri" was a non-Igbo group that moved in and mixed with the Igbos and that Nri had strong Igala links. We shouldn't take every single claim from these colonial observers or ethnographers as gospel, but should study what makes sense and discard what doesn't. That they were there and spoke to people first hand and observed things first hand does not always mean that they interpreted what they saw correctly. The Igala traditions collected from J.S. Boston and A.J. Shelton do not suggest the kind of relationship between Igala and Igbo that the Nri story you mentioned suggests, although the achadu (the leader of the Igala Mela) was indeed of Igbo (and therefore, possibly Nri) origin. If one views the Igala Mela as the "founders" or first settlers of the kingdom, rather than the royal family itself (which may have "Benin" or "Yoruba" origins, or "Jukun" origins, according to some stories, or it may be of indigenous Igala origin) then one can make such an argument for Idah being "founded" by someone from Nri. Otherwise, the claim doesn't really make sense and the Igalas have nothing suggesting Igbo origins for their kingdom. The Igala word for king is Onu (not Attah, which is a specific title). One of the Yoruba titles for a king is Oni. There are many other Yoruba-Igala links besides that. |
shymmex and exotik How about a truce? |
shymmex:My point is that claiming that the Itsekiri are older than the Edo makes no sense. The Itsekiri derive from a Yoruboid-Edoid mix. Whether that Yoruboid group is Ijebu is not directly connected to my point. The Binis are a subgroup of a larger Edoid group and claiming the Itsekiris existed before the entire Edoid group even though there was not an Itsekiri ethnic group before that Yoruboid group mixed with an Edoid group makes no sense. Additionally, claiming that Itsekiris were originally Ijebus and reached the coast before the rest of southern Nigeria arrived from Nubia, Egypt, or the Moon, has no bearing on which cultures are "older" or "existed before" other cultures. |
ezeagu:lol, we've been over this before in that one thread, but the Bini interpretation of the days is as weekdays and the names refer to the four corners of the earth, which are named after the directions of those corners. I think the Igbo version agrees with this in a sense, but you think otherwise and that these are names of spirits/deities. Also, exactly like the four Yoruba directions, only three out of the four Igala days show a correspondence with the Igbo/Bini days. The fourth day that does not correspond, "Ede" (Igala) could easily be related to or essentially the same as the Yoruba compass direction "Odi". This is probably further evidence of a closer association between the Igala and Yoruba than others in the Edo-Yoruba-Igala-Igbo ancestral group. |
Almost everybody in southern Nigeria eventually claims to originate from Kush/Nubia or Egypt in some roundabout way or another, including the Edo, but that doesn't make it true. Why would I be relying on the account of the Awujale of the Ijebu kingdom for information on Itsekiri origins? The Itsekiris never claimed to originate from Ijebu or to have been co-migrants with then from Nubia or elsewhere in the Sudan. Anyway, the age or origin of the Itsekiri does not factor into the question of whether the Edo or Yoruba culture "existed before" the other culture. Linguistics suggests that these groups diverged from a common origin so this question of the "age" of the different cultures is basically meaningless. |
This stuff is still going? ![]() 6,000 - 7,000 years ago, Edo, Yoruba, Igala, Igbo, etc. were probably one group. It shouldn't be that surprising that Edo can get along fine with these groups or that there are cultural similarities between all these groups. As for Oduduwa, it doesn't really matter where Oduduwa came from, it's just that there are some huge discrepancies in some of the stories presented as authoritative so some people object to them. The kings of France were of German origin but were not German kings, the kings of Sweden were of French origin but were Swedish kings and not French kings, etc. It doesn't really matter. The Oba of Benin is an Edo monarch regardless. @ shymmex, use common sense. The Itsekiris are a mix of a Yoruboid group and a smaller Edoid group: "The Mahins seem to have remained up to to-day where they have been described as located centuries ago—on that portion of the strip of "false coast" lying east of Ode, and onward to and inclusive of Omahe or Mahin. On the same strip next comes the territory of Iwere (Owere, Owyhere, Ouarre, Awerre, Warre), which extended to the Benin river and included the islands or deltas intermediate between Benin and Forcados rivers. This territory is also recognised as the Ichekre, Shakry, or Jakry, and its capital was Warre. From a hurried comparison of some short vocabularies I have drawn up, I am led to conclude that the Jakry or Warre language is a dialect of the Yoruba; a conclusion opposed to that of Mr. E. N. Cust in his work on the modern languages of Africa, who gives as synonymous Izekiri, Ishekeri, Dsekiri, Benin, Bini, and Iwine; it is also opposed to what the Jakry men say, viz. that they and the Benins are one, and that Warre was peopled from Benin." - Notes on Yoruba and the Colony and Protectorate of Lagos, West Africa, by Sir Alfred Moloney, K.C.M.G., Governor of Lagos. |
stpat1:lol, you're Esan right? A few Esan clans claimed Igbo origins when traditions of origin were originally recorded (check R. E. Bradbury's The Benin Kingdom and the Edo speaking peoples of South-Western Nigeria (1957)). Your last name may be Bamidele, but it would be ironic if one of your great-great-great-great-great grandfathers was an Igbo man. . . ![]() |
koruji:A little point of correction here. The Iranians actually are "Caucasians", but since Caucasian was made exclusively equal to white European or of white European descent, and since they have a Middle Eastern/Central Asian cultural orientation, they got excluded. And it's some of the Western European Caucasians that claim to be "Aryans" (which would be no different than calling themselves Iranians!). The Persians have been calling themselves Aryans since the time of Zoroaster. |
@ Ngwakwe The Iranians (Persians) have also made lots of contributions to humanity, science, etc. Many of the achievements of the "Islamic Golden Age" are really Iranian achievements. And even before Islam they were one of the most advanced groups on earth. Yes, Jews are brilliant and have a disproportionately high % of prestigious science award winners, but that is not a basis for concluding who is right or wrong when it comes to international politics. Personally, I abhor the proliferation of nuclear weapon technology and the consequences that could result from a political dispute between nuclear armed countries (Pakistan, India, and China come to mind), but from a purely political standpoint, I can't see a reason to criticize Iran's desire to be on the same level militarily as its peers and foes. They once were one of the great powers in the world. You don't just forget that kind of thing and cower or bow to Western Europeans or Israelis that were nowhere near their level in those times. Oh and Iranians in modern times are also very bright. Not on the level of the Jews (but then again, who is?), but they could definitely compete with the Chinese, Germans, Japanese, etc. if they were more developed. That is something of which I"m certain. |
naijaking1:Hutu and Tutsi? I don't think there's any comparison there. If you don't already know, the Tutsi controlled country of Burundi had the Hutus massacred in large numbers before the conflict in Rwanda that you're referring to. Hutu and Tutsi speak the same language but the Tutsi are an outsider group from somewhere else in East Africa that imposed themselves on the Hutu (and maybe adopted their language) in a manner little different than how the Lombards (from Sweden or somewhere else in Scandinavia) imposed themselves on the other Italians at one point, but didn't have any trace of their original Scandinavian language and heritage. Similarly for the Normans in France. A northern group that imposes themselves on another group as superiors and overlords hundreds of years earlier and then faces a violent rebellion in the 20th century isn't exactly the kind of group you want to compare your own group to if you see your group as helpless victims of other people's hate. And as for Oba Akenzua II, his political associations and NCNC alliance make me skeptical of the claim that he was really Igbo-phobic. As for the Sardauna of Sokoto, I don't think he had personal hatred for Igbos. His "Northerners first in Northern Nigeria" policy seems to have been entirely justified, in hindsight. This policy and outlook would have led naturally to conflict with and opposition to some Igbos moving to the North to take certain positions. |
oduasolja:If you read that carefully, yeah, parts of it may seem offensive, but it's a bit ambiguous. There he doesn't state any dislike for Igbos outright and balances his criticisms with positives. Anyway, some of the quotes are taken out of context. |
ekt_bear:Benin Tax Payers Association was for AG Otu Edo was for NCNC Otu Edo won eventually. |
Acapulco1:All of the other snake's heads that I've seen from Benin have more polish and finesse to their appearance than that. I'm not sure that that's a historical (not modern) piece of Benin art just from looking at the picture you posted, although thermoluminescence analysis might say something entirely different . You should go to an art historian specializing in West African bronze/brass art and get it checked out if you're serious, rather than relying on anonymous commentators on the internet. |
Hey, nkante, it turns out chain mail was exported from Europe to West Africa, not just to Benin, and also two hauberks are preserved in the palace of Owo to this day: books.google.com/books?id=EUBeZE-63JAC&pg=PA78 (There was also an article written by Robert Smith on these two hauberks preserved in Owo, although I haven't read it: "A Note on Two Shirts of Chain Mail in the Palace at Owo in South western Nigeria" (1971)) There's a photograph of a chain mail fragment taken from Benin that's kept in the Museum für Völkerkunde Wien (Museum of Ethnology) in Austria on page 305 of the book Benin: Kings and Rituals: Court Arts from Nigeria by Barbara Plakensteiner and O.J. Eboreime. I haven't scanned and uploaded it like I said I would because I was busy. By the way, if you're interested in trying to interpret the Benin art, I strongly suggest not just trying to do it yourself or from what you see on the internet. Get the aforementioned book (Benin: Kings and Rituals) from a library or amazon and look through the book, especially the "Catalogue" section forming the second half of the book and read the comments of specialists that have devoted much of their careers to the art. There are approximately between 2,400 (Felix von Luschan's estimate, based on works that had reached Europe by 1918 ) to 4,000 (Phillip Dark's estimate) pieces of historical (pre-colonial, not modern) Benin art (bronze, ivory, wood, etc.) scattered in museums across the world according to that book, and there is no way one is going to ever see them all. That book I mentioned "only" has about 300 images of different Benin art, in addition to many historical photographs, but it also has the most detailed, accurate and comprehensive analysis of the art that exists so far from what I've seen. If you can't get Benin: Kings and Rituals, then I suggest getting the book Royal Art of Benin: The Perls Collection in the Metropolitan Museum of Art by Kate Ezra. That is the second best book on Benin's art and it has approximately 200 images and a few photographs as well, although the organization and analysis of the art is significantly inferior to that of Benin: Kings and Rituals. As for the mail vs. beads, I don't think that the central figure in this (the individual wearing the horsetails on his helmet): https://www.deviantart.com/download/144824292/A_Bite_Of_Benin_Brass_by_aegiandyad.jpg is wearing beads in his outfit. Also this individual (probably a king, (and identified by modern scholars and their informants as Oba Ozolua) depicted in at least two plaques meant to portray the exact same figure): https://img207.imageshack.us/img207/759/sbookonbeninart.jpg [img]http://1.bp..com/_u_KW4nuKg9k/SMNHYEE_4uI/AAAAAAAAFyk/_LMfItG5BzE/s320/ben104.jpg[/img] is wearing an outfit that is depicted in a different manner than the other depictions of people wearing beads. That said, you may be right about this individual: https://img191.imageshack.us/img191/3148/beninkriegerc5.jpg wearing beads and not chain mail (maybe just an outfit for a war ceremony). Anyway, the possible absence of depictions of chain mail in art wouldn't necessarily mean that it wasn't used, since there is already that tradition about Oba Ozolua, and there is already chain mail taken from Benin that is being kept in a museum today. Benin warriors are not shown using cannons on any Benin plaques, but there is extensive evidence that cannons were used (one can check p. 464 to p. 465 of that book I referenced above for images and details) by the Benin army in certain later centuries (18th century, for example). In fact, there are even cultural remnants of the traditional use of cannon among some Esan communities: http://ihuanedo.ning.com/group/healtheducation/forum/topics/traditional-uses-of-owewe-cannon-in-idumebo-and-orhua-of-edo?xg_source=activity |
NCNC and AG were both popular in the Midwest, I think that much is clear, but NCNC was more popular than AG from what I've read. I don't think this necessarily indicates anything about "ethnic alliances", though. |
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than others". The two statements are clearly related and if one believes the latter, then it wouldn't be surprising if one believes the former.
All Nigerian tribes migrated from Nubia, and the migration patterns already proved that - what I can't really proof is the period, and when each of the tribes migrated, Just as all Europeans know that they all share the same ancestry from Caucasus mountain, and they're mixed with Neanderthals,