₦airaland Forum

exotik:
aha, finally! i have been looking fwd to the day i will know something u dont know in edo.

adesuwa means "the middle/centre of wealth" just like adesogbe is "the middle/centre of ogbe"

abieyuwa is the name u are looking for which means "born into wealth" just like abiemwense meaning "i was born well"

lol, thanks for the correction.

tpia@:
you have to examine the meaning before concluding something is a coincidence.


never heard of oduwa in benin. Is this a recent addition.

I don't see how it would be "recent" anymore than any other name. Aduwa, Aifuwa, Azuwa, Ebuwa, etc. There's a pretty consistent use of "uwa" since that word has a meaning that would be relevant to names.

Adesuwa in Edo and Adesuwa/Adesuwe in Yoruba don't mean the same thing though. It's just a coincidence.

tpia@:
adesua is short for adesuwa which itself is a dialectal variant of adesewa.

crown is beauty, or there is beauty in the crown.

Thanks. Beautiful name. I think these are actually different names though. An example of a coincidence in appearance, like Osakwe (Igbo) and Osakue (Benin) or Oodua (Yoruba) and Oduwa (Benin).

sleekman:
One of d reasons adduced for d Bini empire not expanding much was that d Binis were very wicked. So much atrocities were commited by them.

lmao

I would respond to this seriously but I can't stop laughing.

Anyway, were you there back then to see whether they were anymore "wicked' than those around them?

tpia@:
ayegbeni and adesua are yoruba names but you might find edo people bearing the same.

Interesting.

Aiyegbeni is an Etsako name and I don't know the meaning, but Adesuwa is a child born in wealth/prosperity. What does Adesua mean in Yoruba?

The Edo (Bini) language is basically equidistant from both Yoruba and Igbo in terms of words shared according to the latest linguistic study:


http://books.google.com/books?id=ARo7vPXOhvkC&pg=PA84#v=onepage&q&f=false

Lakal, I saw your reply earlier in that Delta, Bendel thread and I didn't respond. But I'll respond to the post that you made there in this thread, since you've reproduced a version of that response to bring this thread back up.

Excuse my skepticism but there are a few questions that come to mind when you state that "Proto-Yoruba" (as distinct from, say, "Proto-Kwa" was originally chock full of "gh" and "gw" sounds. I was and am aware that the voiced velar fricative ("gh" can change to "w" and that was part of my point, but what I'm skeptical of is the explanation given for why the geographical trend that you've elaborated on really exists (it being only geographical, and not indicative of interaction with other groups).

"Owo" means the same thing in Yoruba.

The gh factor is not an indicator of Benin influence, because areas like the Kabba in the far northern parts of Yorubaland also use it.

Other groups besides the Edo use gh, but does it really look coincidental that most of the Yorubas that retained the "gh" sound are close to speakers of non-Yoruba languages that do use the gh sound? The question which I'm getting at is why the geographical trend that you described exists.

Also, aren't the Kabba speakers supposed to have migrated from Ife and through Ekiti at one point? Meaning, weren't they originally more central than northeastern? And didn't the kingdom of Owo extend into Kabba?

It's actually a geographic trend. 
Eastern Yorubas have the "gh" sound (ogho is money in many Eastern dialects), Central Yorubas eliminate both the gh and w sound (eeo is money in Ekiti Dialect), and Northwest Yorubas, Oyo dialect have replaced "gh" with w. (Owo is money in Oyo Dialect).


Linguists divide Yoruba into Northwest, Southeastern, and Central Dialects, as well as Northeastern and Southwestern.  Even though the Southeastern area was heavily influenced by Benin, the gh sound is found in the Northeast, which was not an area of Benin influence.

I have a question about this geographic trend though.

Assuming that these groups had a similar origin, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that the adoption or retention of this "gh" sound among certain groups would be due to influence or interaction with other groups, whether Yoruba or non-Yoruba that did use the "gh" sound? I guess what I'm getting at is that if some of the Eastern Yorubas used the "gh" sound, wouldn't that be a possible reason some northeastern Yoruba (such as Kabba) would use the "gh" sound, rather than the "gh" sound being a widespread component of original "Proto-Yoruba" (as distinct from "Proto-Kwa"? Keeping in mind the claim that Owo previously extended into Kabba, this doesn't seem that unreasonable.

About the Northeast, do the majority of the Northeast Yoruba use the "gh" sound, or just the Kabba? The other Yorubas in Kogi state, for example, do they use the "gh" sound? If they don't, then I don't really see how it could be geographic only and not due to interaction with other groups.


As far as the word ogho meaning respect, I was certain that the meaning indicating respect (not money, "igho" is money in Edo) is rooted in the Edoid languages, since ogho also means respect in Urhobo, and linguists (such as Ben Elugbe) hold Urhobo to have separated from the groups now in Edo state a very long time ago, but since you brought up owo meaning respect in Yoruba, it seems that meaning is from a proto-Kwa word, not an exclusively Edoid or Yoruboid word. 

The difficulty is that the predominant Yoruba dialect of today is the Oyo variety, which is known as the "most innovating," meaning that some of the consonants of proto-Yoruba (gh and gw) have been done away with, and the vowel system has also been simplified from proto-Yoruba.

Yeah, I looked at a Yoruba dictionary (by Kayode Fakinlede) before I posted that actually and I didn't see the use of "gh" at all even though it's known that some Yorubas do use it. I guess that was an "Oyo dictionary", and not a full Yoruba dictionary.

What you're saying here is that when Yorubas were a smaller group, the "Proto-Yoruba" group, the language was full of "gh" and "gw" sounds.

If most Yorubas eliminated "gh" and "gw" consonants from the language, then the majority of them changed parts of the sound of their language.  The question which should follow is why some of them didn't change parts of their language. You're explaining to me that migration and the influence of the Oyo dialect changed the sound of the consonants in the language, and I didn't post anything with respect to that, but in light of what you wrote the question I would have is why only certain groups (Southeastern Yoruba, Northeastern Yoruba that may have interacted with Southeastern Yoruba, Itsekiri), but not others (some other Northeastern Yoruba in Kogi state, Igala) would have retained certain consonants of a proto-Yoruboid language if it were merely about migration/geography and Oyo.

It's not unusual to you that the only Yorubas that retained "gh" are in Eastern Yorubaland, whereas the Yorubas outside of southeastern and northeasten Yorubaland all altered it?

Also, since Igala is technically "Yoruboid", and since the Igala split from other Yoruba language speakers occurred quite early and the Igala are in that same northeastern area, shouldn't the Igala language retain the ancient "gh" sound, since some proto-Yoruba speakers that stayed towards the northeast also retained it? I'm not really convinced that "gh" was retained in Yoruba without outside influence, whereas you (and professional linguists) are convinced that the vast majority of Yorubas changed the consonants after migration and the Oyo dialect influence. It is speculation on my part, I admit, but I really don't think the particular geographical trend you've described is mere happenstance.

Life isn't any more unfair to men than it is to women. The OP should grow some balls and quit whining.

tpia,

I kind of have moved past the issue personally, but it would help to have these images collated in just one thread for others to see who might not have seen everything you or I might have seen. Also, other contributors might post images that neither of us has seen. I consider this thread as more of a holding thread for images people may have seen of building styles besides just those found in Nigeria.



As for the Akan architecture, since you've seen actual Portuguese architecture. . .

Does Portuguese architecture really look like this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/imknowmadic2/3278214284/in/set-72157601506642446

or this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/imknowmadic2/3237775930/in/set-72157601506642446

or this?: http://www.flickr.com/photos/imknowmadic2/3278214308/in/set-72157601506642446



The pictures of Akan architecture that I linked to show actual Akan architecture in addition to the modern European stuff mixed with it. The Portuguese architecture that you're thinking of is maybe the stone palace formerly at Kumasi or the modern pictures in those albums. I should have been clearer. I only plan to post the earlier pre-colonial pictures, such as those drawn by Bowdich and others, and the few modern examples that correspond faithfully to those pictures in appearance, not every picture in that flickr album, since not all of those pictures would fit the premise of the thread. I should have been clearer about what I meant by Ashanti architecture. I'm not considering something like this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/imknowmadic2/1151651793/in/set-72157601506642446

for posting, since it's not completely faithful to their original building style.

And I'm obviously not going to post an image like this in the thread: http://www.flickr.com/photos/imknowmadic2/1151661427/in/set-72157601506642446

But definitely other images like this would be posted through the first part of this thread: http://www.flickr.com/photos/imknowmadic2/2653882260/in/set-72157601513839399/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/imknowmadic2/sets/72157601506642446/?page=2

http://www.flickr.com/photos/imknowmadic2/sets/72157601506642446/detail/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/imknowmadic2/sets/72157601506642446/detail/?page=8


These are some images of Akan architecture that someone else uploaded to flickr. The larger images can be posted later.

jason123:
Enahoro was his deputy.

lol, Enahoro that was described as a "back-bencher" in the AG by the Sardauna in his autobiography, was Awolowo's deputy? Let's not stretch the truth.


And the W/MW issue was not about the Oba of Benin, who I'm pretty sure was on good terms with the other monarchs in the Western region. When Dennis Osadebey's eligibility as leader of the opposition was questioned because of his so called "kobokobo" background, was that about the Oba of Benin? It was about NCNC vs. AG and about (actual) self-rule, not the Benin monarchy. No group of people would trade one master (British) for another if they could have a better alternative.

So a few weeks ago I came across some images of Ashanti architecture that counter some of the prevalent stereotypes about what kinds of buildings Africans were capable of building and I decided to start a thread devoted exclusively to non-European and non-Islamic African buildings from different parts of africa.

A few of the visitors to the Akan (Ashanti) city of Kumasi were competent enough to sketch and photoraph some of what they saw in the city in detail, unlike most of the visitors to some other places in Africa, who were completely disinterested in doing such (although a few of them did write impressive descriptions of the places they visited) so I'll start with those images first.


So far I have images of:

Akan architecture - a lot of different drawings and photographs
Benin architecture - a few pictures of some buildings and floors and a few drawings
Yoruba architecture - a few images of paved floors, courtyards and a picture of the top of a tomb
Shona architecture - several images of different stone walled settlements (not just Great Zimbabwe; they built many of these kinds of structures)


There are also descriptions of various places in Africa that I plan to post later on as I get more time. So this thread will include both historical descriptions of buildings and places in Africa and images of some places in Africa.


By now, most people on this forum are already aware of a few of the images of the extraordinary artwork from West Africa, and some of the best books on that art that I can recommend are the following:


Igbo-Ukwu: an account of archaeological discoveries in eastern Nigeria by Thurstan Shaw

The Nok Culture: Art in Nigeria 2500 Years Ago by Gert Chesi and Gerhard Merzeder

Nok terracottas by Bernard Fagg

The birth of art in Africa: Nok statuary in Nigeria by Bernard de Grunne

Dynasty and Divinity: Ife Art in Ancient Nigeria by Henry John Drewal

Yoruba: Nine Centuries of African Art and Thought by Henry John Drewal, John Pemberton, Rowland Abiodun, and Allen Wardwell

Ife in the History of West African Sculpture by Frank Willett

Benin: Kings and Rituals: Court Arts from Nigeria by Barbara Plakensteiner

Royal Art of Benin: The Perls Collection in the Metropolitan Museum of Art by Kate Ezra

Benin: Royal Art of Africa from the Museum Fur Volkerkunde, Vienna by Armand Duchâteau

The Art of Benin by Nigel Barley

Central Nigeria Unmasked: Arts of the Benue River Valley by Marla C. Berns, Richard Fardon and Sidney Littlefield Kasfir

Treasures of Ancient Nigeria by Ekpo Eyo and Frank Willett

Heroic Africans: Legendary Leaders, Iconic Sculptures by Alisa LaGamma

African Gold by Timothy F. Garrard

Gold of the Akan from the Glassell Collection by Doran H. Ross and Frances Marzio

Ashanti Gold by Edward S. Ayensu

African Art: An Introduction by Frank Willett


However, much less known to most people are the descriptions and images of non-Islamic and non-European architecture from Africa, some of which I hope to compile on this thread.

For the record, I'm well aware that huts are every bit a component of African architecture as any other buildings, but since virtually every group of people in the world had huts, they aren't interesting to me as an example of uniquely African buildings, so their exclusion from this thread isn't really about elitism.

Beaf:
Also, Ondo states oil is in Ijaw territory.

lol, Ilaje is not Ijaw and you know this.

Uh, just for the record, not all the oil in Edo state is being exploited, and there is still exploration going on. That said, the percentage is slightly less than 3% of Nigeria's oil as of right now. Ondo is around less than 5%.

www.boellnigeria.org/downloads/Oil_Communities_in_Niger_Delta_Bemoan_lack_of_Development_HBS_Report.pdf+Escaping+the+Resource+Curse+in+Nigeria:+An+Evaluation+of+the+Impact+of+the+Oil+Commissions+in+Ondo">https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:b_VrEd9sDTkJ:www.boellnigeria.org/downloads/Oil_Communities_in_Niger_Delta_Bemoan_lack_of_Development_HBS_Report.pdf+Escaping+the+Resource+Curse+in+Nigeria:+An+Evaluation+of+the+Impact+of+the+Oil+Commissions+in+Ondo,+Edo+and+Delta+States.&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESh2GsSYRoZ4a9UKFh1jvSwGXXSWVpTZjl_CqHkH1JDYjHFRppzdFvboPJlmb9uY96WtblSePTtay6iqNPS1mvNZ5v-RbauwvC2gfkzYgGos2JGixAuFa_1fguFUjvc8OIQhACtw&sig=AHIEtbQFtApRyMWnnpWLnO40avfYJWZbIA




This argument about "parasites" is always silly to me. There isn't any part of Nigeria that doesn't have some valuable natural resource.

It's called Shaihu Umar: a novel.. I never read it (too busy). Just wondering if anyone else here has.

Funny how the actual Hausas and Binis don't start threads like this. No need to drag other groups into the Igbo-Yoruba squabble.

Anyways, Yorubas did have a calendar and did have trade networks. As for writing systems, most groups in the world today did not invent their own writing systems. Most of them just took their writing system from Proto-Sinaitic/Phoenician and modified it. In Nigeria, the Ekoi invented a writing system by around the 5th century AD and they wrote on pottery dated back to the 5th century, and their system was called nchibbidi/nsibidi. Some scholars still claim the system was only invented in the 20th century, despite the pottery finds though.  Anyway, the point is, not having a writing system isn't as unusual as the OP is trying to suggest.

Has anyone here read the novel Balewa wrote before he became prime minister? Just wondering.

?

ekt_bear:
Were they girl pushups (knee touching ground) or guy pushups?

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/02/michelle-obama-does-25-push-ups/


Not really full push ups.

maxsiollun:
The things that struck me most:

*The Sardauna's complete disinterest in federal politics and focus on preserving the customs and values of the north.

I started reading Bello's autobiography ("My Life" a few days ago, and there's a massive biography of him by John Paden that I've been skimming through recently. He was extremely interested in federal politics, so I don't know what you mean by this.

lol

Hey resw and Rossike, I'll be bowing out of this discussion as I have a lot of other things to do this week and the following weeks (school). I don't really plan to come back to this thread afterward. Thanks for the discussion. Bye.

Rossike, Medjay is a word taken from what the Egyptians actually wrote in some inscriptions. Admittedly, we don't really have the vowels, but it's a probable reconstruction/approximation of what the exact word was.

And once again, being Medjay or being Nubian does not preclude being Egyptian. They are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but that one can correctly state that Medjay or Kushites were Egyptians (like those troops) at times does not mean that one should go so far as to claim that they were all one identical people, or that the Kushites never had a separate polity.  A Welshman is also British, but it doesn't make the Welsh identical to other groups who they ended up being in the same country (U.K.) with after Wales was conquered. Not a difficult concept to grasp.

^^^

Like I told resw, I've already come across this argument, and it doesn't stand up to scrutiny, but if you want to believe that those aren't the Medjay, you can believe what you want. By the way, that they are Medjay does not exclude them from being Egyptians. That should be obvious.

resw77,

I don't need to prove that West African cultures are unique and not connected to Nile Valley customs to somebody who doesn't know anything about them. On the contrary, you would need to prove that West African cultures are truly derived from Nile Valley cultures, which you would be incapable of doing as you know almost nil about those West African cultures. By your silence you admitted that you had read basically nothing in depth about the very culture (the Akan culture) you tried to use for your example.


As for "Kush", as explained before, "King's Son of Kush" has no more significance than "Prince of Wales" or "Empress of India" being used by some high ranking nobility who is not in any way a Welshman or an Indian. It should be pretty obvious what the meaning of "King's Son of Kush" is unless one is desperately grasping for straws.  Next I'll hear from you that the Welsh are really of the same ethnicity as the English, that there were never Welsh kingdoms, and that they were historically indistinguishable from the English because the next Englishman in line to the British throne decides to style himself "Prince of Wales".


As for your allusion to the Ramesside inscriptions. I don't care about a Kushite rebellion after Kush was already a vassal of Egypt. That is totally irrelevant to your claim that the Kushites weren't originally a distinct group and polity. The rebellion of a vassal state has no bearing on the question of whether it was originally a distinct polity. Kerma and Kush have already been proven to be directly connected.

I already provided you with a quote where Kush invaded Egypt and the Egyptians were barely able to stave them off during the 17th dynasty:

http://wysinger.homestead.com/article10.html

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2003/649/he1.htm

You are referencing 19th and 20th dynasty stuff to suggest that it was merely a rebellious province of Egypt and I'm telling you that before Kush was conquered, it raided Egypt as a foreign power with assistance from Punt and others in the 17th dynasty and the Egyptians themselves admitted this.

In fact, even the way Kush was referred to in one of the Ramesside era inscriptions reveals that it was grouped with foreign peoples meant to be subjugated by the Egyptians:

"Destroyer of Libya, vanquishing them - Merenptah, given life.

Long live the goodly god, a Lion against Khurro

a strong bull against Kush, to slay the Medjayu"



And yet other references to "miserable Kush" or "Kush the vile"/"vile Kush" in other Egyptian inscriptions make one wonder why one would claim they were  part of one indivisible people.

I don't have time for bs, so I'll move on if you're just going to keep peddling this "there were no Nubians/Kushites, only  Kemetians" stuff. You can declare yourself "victor" if it pleases you.

Rossike, you posted images of the Medjay warriors (http://wysinger.homestead.com/nubianarchers.html). Of course they aren't going to look anything other than black.

Like I said, earlier, I know what I've seen, and that I don't have the books on me and don't have time to track down all that I've seen years back doesn't mean I'm countering what you're arguing in order to pursue a certain agenda.

The traditions I've heard speak of migration FROM THE NORTH, not from the East, although some groups may have moved in from the east on their journey from the north during the dispersions caused by foreign invasions of the Nile Valley.

Northeast can be remembered as north or east, no big deal.

I've already read Diop. And much more besides that. I can see that we're just not going to agree, so I don't plan on stretching this discussion out much longer.

Rossike, don't present my views as something that they aren't. The National Geographic "reconstruction" of King Tut was bullshit and I never claimed that they had any justification for the image they produced or that I agreed with it.