₦airaland Forum

PAPA AFRICA: are those dreads?

Yeah. There are several images of people in Benin art wearing dreadlocks. But most of the people depicted in the art don't have them.

[img]http://raai.library.yale.edu/web/art/2/6/63275_images_image_2673_image.jpg[/img]

Publication: October 1909. Berning, A. "In de Ruïnen der Residentie van Konig Behanzin van Dahomey." De Katholieke Missiën. Geillustreerd Maandschrift, in verbinding met het Lyonsch Weekblad van het Genootschap tot Voortplanting des Geloofs, Vol. 34, No. Aflevering 12.

Original language: Dutch

Caption translation: DAHOMEY. - Snake Temple to Weidah

Caption: DAHOMEY. - Slangentempel te Weidah

Illustrator: Lovier, N.(?) F.; Laplante, C. Lovier, N.(?) F.; Laplante, C., signed by Lovier in LL and by C. Laplante in LR

Keywords:
• Dahomey (Country, region, place)
• Ouidah (Country, region, place)
• République du Bénin (Country, region, place)
• boat (Notable features)
• snake (Notable features)
• European visitors ? (Notable features)
• standing figure (Notable features)
• mural (Object name, type)
• temple (Object name, type)
• wall painting (Object name, type)
• Fon (Style, culture group)

[img]http://raai.library.yale.edu/web/art/6/8/91533_images_image_6859_medium.jpg[/img]

Publication: 1870. Guernsey, A.H. "Paul du Chaillu Once More." Harper's Magazine, Vol. 39, No. 236 (January).

Original language: English

Caption: A Royal Canoe.

Text: “‘Our canoes were paddling against the current of the narrow and deep river Rembro. You may well ask yourselves where is the place for which I am bound. If you had seen us you might have thought we were going to make war, for the canoes were full of men who were covered with all their war fetiches; their faces were painted, and they were loaded with implements of war. The drums beat furiously, and the paddlers, as we ascended, were singing war-songs, and at times they would sing praises in honor of their king, saying that Quenguenza was above all kings.’ ‘Quengueza and I were in the royal canoe, a superb piece of wood over sixty feet long, the prow being an imitation of an immense crocodile’s head, whose jaws were wide open, showing its big, sharp, pointed teeth. This was emblematic, and meant that it would swallow all the enemies of the king. In our canoe there were more than sixty paddlers. At the stern was seated old Quengueza, the queen, who held an umbrella over the head of his majesty, and myself; and seated back of us all was Adouma, the king’s nephew, who was armed with an immense paddle, by which he guided the canoe.’” (p. 202)

Illustration technique: field engraving

Keywords:
• Gabon (Country, region, place)
• wood (Materials and techniques)
• crocodile head (Notable features)
• figurated prow (Notable features)
• war canoe (Object name, type)
• Nkomi (Style, culture group)
• Fang (Style, culture group)

[img]http://raai.library.yale.edu/web/art/1/2/74152_images_image_1230_medium.jpg[/img]

Publication: 1885. Ratzel, Friedrich. Völkerkunde, Vol. I.

Original language: German

Caption translation: Harps of the Niam-Niam (Christy Collection, London)

Caption: Harfen der Niam-Niam (Christy Collection, London)

Text translation: "All of these folk [Bongo, Zulu, Njam-Njam, Tuareg] are skilled in wood carving. The ornament the feet of chairs with rich carvings. They also depict humans (but one can not view these figures immediately as idols) and carve good spoons from wood. The beautiful harps with necks ending in carved animal or human heads and which have made their way from the (p. 533) Niam-Niam to the Bongo and farther to other neighboring folk, show the skill and fineness of their work (see reproduction below. This branch of the arts is particularly developed among the Bongo in the plentiful figures with which they decorate their villages, thrones and graves. Entire rows of such figures are found carved from wood on the posts surrounding the entrances of villages, on decorated gates, or standing near the huts of the Njere (oldest) immortalizing the memorial of some exemplary personality from the community.” [Transcribed from German Fraktur] (pp. 533-534)

Illustrator: G. Mützel G. Mützel, signed "G.M."

Illustration technique: studio engraving

Keywords:
• Congo-Kinshasa (Country, region, place)
• Sudan (Country, region, place)
• skin (Materials and techniques)
• string (Materials and techniques)
• wood (Materials and techniques)
• bird (Notable features)
• human (Notable features)
• rabbit (Notable features)
• figurated finial (Notable features)
• heads (Notable features)
• harp guitar (Object name, type)
• musical instrument (Object name, type)
• Zande (Style, culture group)

[img]http://raai.library.yale.edu/web/art/6/2/36079_images_image_6272_image.jpg[/img]

Publication: 1885. Ratzel, Friedrich. Völkerkunde, Vol. I.

Original language: German

Caption translation: A punt from the Upper Congo (after Stanley).

Caption: Ein Kahn vom obern Kongo (nach Stanley)

Illustration technique: b/w field engraving

Publication page: 191

Keywords:
• Congo-Kinshasa (Country, region, place)
• Upper Congo (Country, region, place)
• lizard (Notable features)
• ornamental bas-relief (Notable features)
• reptile (Notable features)
• dugout canoe (Object name, type)

[img]http://raai.library.yale.edu/web/art/3/16896_images_image_326_medium.jpg[/img]

Publication: 1912. Talbot, P. Amaury. In the Shadow of the Bush.

Text: "The musical faculty of this people is certainly wonderful, though developed along peculiar lines. They have a consider able number of musical instruments, but among these the drum reigns supreme. Of this there are many varieties, from the small boy's tom-tom, about 6 inches high, to the long drums almost the height of a man, and the great drum of the town, which is an object of reverence to the inhabitants, and in honour of which many songs are composed. [...] The study of the drum is well worth the attention of officials, as it is possible in this way not only to know what is going on in native towns round one—for every event has its different tune by which to summon the inhabitants, such as Egbo and Juju performances, wrestling bouts, &c.—but one is able to learn the drum language, and so interpret almost every secret message sent in warning to counteract one's orders or plans. Two drums are generally beaten, of which the first leads while the second responds. ... When only one performer is available, he beats the two drums. The combinations are so limitless that any attempt to do more than indicate the method employed would but weary my readers. " (pp. 297, 298)

Illustration technique: studio engraving

Keywords:
• Cross River (Country, region, place)
• Nigeria (Country, region, place)
• hide (Materials and techniques)
• wood (Materials and techniques)
• carved (Materials and techniques)
• bent knees (Notable features)
• legs (Notable features)
• torso (Notable features)
• anthropomorphic (Object name, type)
• Ekpo drum (Object name, type)
• Ejagham (Style, culture group)

pleep: PHALLIC SYMBOL: EDVIDENCE OF PRE-COLONIAL PROMISCUITY

lol, I only just noticed the phallic shape of it after reading this comment of yours . .I'm not sure every pillar in every culture was/is a phallic symbol though. It seems, from what Talbot wrote about these pillars, that they had a deep religious significance, but no real s3xual connotations.

[img]http://raai.library.yale.edu/web/art/3/29359_images_image_304_medium.jpg[/img]


Publication: 1912. Talbot, P. Amaury. In the Shadow of the Bush.

Original language: English

Caption: Emblems of Obassi Nsi

Text: "In the central atrium of almost every compound is set a little group, consisting usually of a growing tree, carved post and sacrificial stone, sacred to one or other of the Deities. By far the greater number of these are dedicated to Obassi Nsi, as is shown by the coco yams planted, or laid in a small heap, close by. [...] Before beginning the work of the day, each man or woman who still clings to the old custom, takes a calabash of water and goes into the central court to wash. With eyes lifted to the newly-risen sun they pray : 'Eyo ofu, eyo egu, 'me eyange eyange.' 'Sun of morning, sun of evening, let me (be) free from danger (to-day).' This is done because the sun is supposed to be deputed by Obassi to receive all prayers offered on earth, and carry them before him."

Illustration technique: field engraving

Publication page: 21

Keywords:
• Cross Rivers (Country, region, place)
• Oban (Country, region, place)
• Nigeria (Country, region, place)
• anthropomorphic (Notable features)
• cocoa yams (Notable features)
• cylindrical (Notable features)
• ritual stake (Object name, type)
• sacred post (Object name, type)
• shrine figure (Object name, type)
• Ejagham (Style, culture group)

[img]http://raai.library.yale.edu/web/art/3/28333_images_image_305_medium.jpg[/img]

Publication: 1912. Talbot, P. Amaury. In the Shadow of the Bush.

Original language: English

Caption: Pillar in Egbo House with carved figure of Nimm in crocodile form

Text: "Everywhere in Ekoi mythology, the cult of the snake is found to be closely connected with that of the crocodile. In many of the Egbo houses a representation of the former is to be seen modelled in high relief on the wall at the farther end, while the crocodile is usually found carved on the principal pillar. Those families who are members of the Cult of Nimm, [...] never drive a snake from their houses, but take powdered chalk and strew before the visitor, very softly, so as not to frighten it in any way. Should a snake enter a house not protected by Nimm, the owner must consult the "Diviner" in order to find out if it is sent by ghosts or " Juju." (pp. 24-25)

Illustration technique: studio engraving

Keywords:
• Cross River (Country, region, place)
• Nigeria (Country, region, place)
• carved wood (Materials and techniques)
• crocodile figure (Notable features)
• Egbo pillar (Notable features)
• Nimm cult object (Object name, type)
• Ejagham (Style, culture group)

[img]http://raai.library.yale.edu/web/art/3/10176_images_image_325_medium.jpg[/img]

Publication: 1912. Talbot, P. Amaury. In the Shadow of the Bush.

Original language: English

Caption: Typical Pillar in Egbo House

Text: "Perhaps the most important part of the whole structure is the " Etai Ngbe," the long, cut stone, usually found standing before the second pillar. When this stone is first erected in a new town, every chief has to bring food in a calabash, and palm wine in an earthenware pot. A part is offered in sacrifice, and the rest eaten. The Stone is often transformed by rude painting into the rough semblance of a human being. A cap is made to fit the upper end, and iron in some form, is always present, either in bars twisted round the stone, or laid below it." (p. 265)

Illustration technique: studio engraving

Publication page: 265

Keywords:
• Cross River (Country, region, place)
• Nigeria (Country, region, place)
• carved stone (Materials and techniques)
• cap (Notable features)
• figurated (Notable features)
• abstract (Notable features)
• sacrifice pillar (Object name, type)
• Ekpo shrine (Object name, type)
• Ejagham (Style, culture group)

[img]http://raai.library.yale.edu/web/art/3/92984_images_image_324_medium.jpg[/img]

'Publication: 1912. Talbot, P. Amaury. In the Shadow of the Bush.

Original language: English

Caption: Interior of Egbo House'



Part of Talbot's comment on the interior: "As soon as the private dwellings are finished, the inhabitants set about building an Egbo house, nearly always on the plan given on the previous page. This style of architecture is singularly well adapted to the conditions of the country. The open front, and many loop holes, sheltered by overhanging eaves, provide the maximum of air with the minimum of glare—while complete protection is afforded against tornadoes. Perhaps the most important part of the whole structure is the "Etai Ngbe," the long, cut stone, usually found standing before the second pillar. When this stone is first erected in a new town, every chief has to bring food in a calabash, and palm wine in an earthenware pot. A part is offered in sacrifice, and the rest eaten." (p. 265)

[img]http://raai.library.yale.edu/web/art/3/55884_images_image_319_medium.jpg[/img]

'Publication: 1912. Talbot, P. Amaury. In the Shadow of the Bush.

Original language: English

Caption:

Egbo House

Text:

“The first town beyond the Oban-Ikom boundary is Abijang. Here the Ekoi have intermarried to a considerable extent with their neighbours in the twin town of Akam, which came over from Obubra and settled so close to Abijang that at first sight the two towns seem to form only one. The decoration of some of the compounds, and of the Egbo house, is different to that in most Ekoi towns, though a little later we came on a particularly beautiful example of this style made by an Oban man. Instead of the pattern being moulded in relief on the surface of the wall, after the latter has been roughly mudded to form a background, the design here is first marked on the surface, which is then dug out between the lines, so as to leave the pattern raised. This is afterwards picked out in white paint, and over all raised figures are sometimes added, in the same manner as those of other parts. The figures shown in the drawing were variously explained as Obassi Osaw, his wife and Nimm (Snake), Obassi Osaw and Nimm in her three shapes (woman, snake, and crocodile), Obassi Osaw and Obassi Nsi with Nimm.” (pp. 216-217) '


(This image is from the RAAI website. The source of the image is Talbot's 1912 book and the quote above describing the Egbo house is by him.)

CAMEROONPRIDE: so in few words Kmer gave you AIDS?

Not really what I was saying. I don't think there's any evidence that AIDS spread from Cameroon to Nigeria so I won't speculate on that.

I don't know exactly why the geographical pattern in Nigeria is what it is, but I suspect that if a new strain of HIV (even if that strain is not the main culprit of AIDS, like HIV-1) such as HIV-2 did arise in southern Cameroon, then there was something in the environment or the population that made southern Cameroon at a greater risk for the emergence of types of HIV. Whatever factors caused a new strain of HIV to emerge in southern Cameroon (if it actually did) might also make places in Nigeria that are more similar to southern Cameroon, either genetically or environmentally (or both), and areas in Nigeria that are geographically close to or similar to such places, more susceptible to the emergence of HIV in those areas.

Just now seeing this thread. I have to say that I am surprised at the number of derogatory comments about the late Oba Akenzua II's attire.

The comments of people like nwando/babyosisi and ifihearam are not surprising, since their antipathy to anything concerning the Edo is already known, but I'm a bit surprised by the comments from so many others, and even from people I thought were brighter than that.

As someone who has seen a lot of images of monarchs, elites, nobility, etc. from the past and the present day, I think that the red beaded regalia of the Oba of Benin is not merely one of the best in Nigeria, it's one of the best in Africa and the wider world. But this is something that is clear to me because I have actually looked at the attires and clothing of many African and non-African rulers from the past and the present - something which I think a lot of the people commenting negatively here have not done.

Ironically, some of those making derogatory comments about "masquerades" might be from groups where the leaders, rulers, elites, elders, rich men etc. simply adopted or attempted to adopt some European clothing (and not always successfully - some of them did not look impressive, to say the least) or wore little at all. I say "might" because a lot of people haven't even bothered to look at the old images of chiefs, kings, elites, etc. from different parts of Nigeria, and they might be totally clueless about whether the monarchs, nobility, elites, or elders among their people looked regal and stately, as the Obas of Benin did and still do, or looked more like nobodies with little cultural creativity and no sense of style.

Others that are mocking the attire would probably be surprised to know that the same Europeans and Westerners whose clothing they probably see as ideal today were writing about how the Oba of Benin's beaded regalia was magnificent (as it definitely was and is, regardless of whether they had acknowledged that) even centuries ago, and are still writing about its regal appearance today.

And kudos to all those who had positive comments in here - clearly not everybody on NL is devoid of appreciation for African culture.

montelik: but the point is that in the bush was Carl (a little boy regardless of the hat and sheriff badge), Beth (a barely older little girl who probably can't really handle a weapon) and Hershel (a disabled elderly man), that is it no one else. Meanwhile there were a sizeable number of guys attacking, not too far from their location. What were they going to do with a prisoner? Who would have kept an eye on him so he wouldn't try something while Carl safeguarded them from ambush, Beth? Whom amongst them would have physically restrained him? How sure could Carl be that they would be able to handle taking him prisoner if he tried to run, thereby revealing their presence to the sizeable force not far from where they were? Most importantly, what if there were more of the Guv's fleeing soldiers coming behind him and these ones might not be boys but full grown men. How would he have been able to deal with such a situation with little girl Beth, disabled Hershel and a prisoner in tow. There are situation where it is much safer not to take prisoners. It would have been a different matter if it was Glenn, Maggie and Daryl as there would be more than enough expertise amongst them to handle any eventuality, but Carl couldn't afford to take a chance that could have killed them all.

This is also a good point.

I still think that if it were a real life situation and he had dropped his weapon and walked away slowly with his hands up, he wouldn't get killed since they probably would have not felt okay about shooting a completely unarmed man in the back, even if he was a risk. But you're right that Carl probably realized that the guy could have come possibly come back later for them with a stronger force as backup and had them killed. So even if he had dropped his weapon as asked, he would still have been a serious threat. Any way one looks at it, Carl made the right choice.

If the writers keep pushing this Carl vs. Hershel angle when season 4 starts, even when any viewer with a brain knows that Carl's choice was prudent, then it will be obvious that they're just desperately looking for a new source of tension between the characters, no matter how unrealistic it is. I hope they drop the whole issue.

Alright, so the spambot hid my last post in here and banned me for a day (although the post clearly isn't spam), until I asked that the mod unban me and unhide my post, which he did (thanks Odumchi).

So I think I'm going to post the pictures I found more slowly, at more spread out intervals of time, so that the spam bot may be less likely to ban me and hide the posts. If the spambot continues acting this way that would be unfortunate since there are many very interesting pictures that I found on the RAAI and a few other sites and I would have liked to get a lot of them posted in this thread quickly instead of updating the thread slowly.

^
Thanks Odumchi.

[img]http://raai.library.yale.edu/web/art/7/2/24358_images_image_7240_image.jpg[/img]

Source: 1913. Marquart, Jos (Joseph). Die Benin-Sammlung des Reichsmuseums für Völkerkunde in Leiden : beschrieben und mit ausführlichen Prolegomena zur Geschichte der Handelswege und Völkerbewegungen in Nordafrika.

A small excerpt of the translation of the commentary on this image: "These paddles aren’t from Benin, but rather are probably from the Jekris in the neighborhood of Benin; similar pieces, whose provenance are certain, are owned by the Pitt Rivers Museum."

[img]http://raai.library.yale.edu/web/art/5/0/62740_images_image_5059_medium.jpg[/img]

"Caption: Ijo Juju and Jekri Combs"

Source: 1899. Granville, Reginald K. and Felix N. Roth. "Notes on the Jekris, Sobos and Ijos of the Warri District of the Niger Coast Protectorate." The Journal of the Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, Vol. I.


[The Ijaw "juju" referred to by the authors is the wooden sculpture of a reptile. "Jekri" = Itsekiri.]



[img]http://raai.library.yale.edu/web/art/5/0/95655_images_image_5058_image.jpg[/img]

"Caption: Jekri Paddles."

Source: 1899. Granville, Reginald K. and Felix N. Roth. "Notes on the Jekris, Sobos and Ijos of the Warri District of the Niger Coast Protectorate." The Journal of the Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, Vol. I.

["Jekri" = Itsekiri. These are carved wooden canoe paddles.]

Pleep, if you look at the chart of HIV prevalence by state that you posted on the second page of this thread, you'll notice that:

1) Nasarawa state (about 60% Muslim) has higher HIV prevalence than many southern states that have an overwhelming majority of Christians.
2) Taraba, Borno, and Adamawa have a higher HIV prevalence % than Imo and Ebonyi.
3) The HIV prevalence percentage for Borno state (mostly Muslim) and Edo state (mostly Christian) are almost the same. The HIV prevalence percentage for Niger state (almost evenly split between Muslims and Christians) and Delta state (mostly Christian) are almost the same.

This shows that there is not a consistent religious pattern.

Also, Gombe is only about 30% Christian, not 50% like you said.

As for the geographic pattern in Nigeria, the probable first outbreak of HIV-2 was in southern Cameroon (at least according to some researchers - I don't know if that's the majority opinion). So that may be the reason why those areas in Nigeria that border the southern areas of Cameroon and the Nigerian states closest to those border states may be worst affected. Basically, it looks like the closer a Nigerian border state is to the southern half of Cameroon, and the closer an interior Nigerian state is to a border state that borders southern Cameroon, the more likely that state is to have a higher prevalence of people with HIV.

This thread will show some rarely seen drawings and photographs of various places, people, and objects from black Africa that are from the precolonial era, the earliest colonial era times, and a few photos from later colonial era times. In addition, some modern photographs of rarely seen African artwork from the distant past may be posted.

Most of the images will be from the Ross Archive of African Images (RAAI) from Yale university, but I'll also get some other images from other sources where available, especially if I decide to continue the thread past more than a few pages. I'll also post many (but not all) of the captions to the pictures that are supplied at the sites where I find them. Some of the captions are from people who were writing before the rise of political correctness and cultural sensitivity and may not be exactly objective, inoffensive or totally accurate, but may nevertheless be informative and will be included anyway.

For other people that want to find historical photographs, drawings, art, etc. from a certain part of Africa, apart from the RAAI website (which I strongly recommend), this is also a good resource:

http://www-sul.stanford.edu/depts/ssrg/africa/photographs.html#historical

That Stanford page has links to many other online collections, galleries, archives, etc. that have historical images from earlier eras in Africa. Some of the websites it links to are in other languages (such as French) but mostly they are in English.

The selection posted on this thread will mostly be of whatever images representing a certain cultural practice, place, event, object, individual, etc. that I find interesting or unique, but I encourage other people to post any rarely seen or interesting African historical images that they may have come across.

I do ask that people who do post don't fill the thread with widespread or common pictures of well known West African or Central African artwork though, since there are already some threads on this forum that have some of that other artwork. I will post a little bit of that artwork on the thread on occasion, but the few that I post will be images of artwork that I believe have rarely been seen and which cannot be easily found/accessed elsewhere online.

My focus will probably be heavily on West Africa, Central Africa, and probably a bit of Southern Africa, but I'll try and get some East African images in the thread where possible. But other posters that want to contribute can post more interesting East African images that they find.

I'll probably end up jumping back and forth a lot between different places and cultures in Africa but when possible I'll try to post culturally/geographically related images close together.

pleep: Ok you are right about the bolded, but there is evidence that African societies, even out of the context of slavery seemed unusually promiscious to Arab observers.

I remember a quote from Ibn Battuta, the guy who traveled all over West Africa, from a national geographic magazine. It was basically talking about how African converts to Islam (Mali empire) were extremely faithful muslims in every doctrine except the sexual codes and the rules about nudity. They would often marry as many wives as they could to try and subvert this rule and commited adultury willy nilly.

The article also had a picture of a top-less malien lady with a Hijab lol.

Promiscuity, lechery and lustfulness are relative, though. There were stereotypes about Arabs and Muslims among Europeans as being lustful in general because of the harems that some rulers had or because of the polygamy that some of them (such as the rich ones) practiced. For example there was the stereotype of the "lustful Turk" in Europe in the past, yet the Turks were and are overwhelmingly Muslim. And consider the Greeks and to some extent the Romans - were those all completely s3xually chaste societies? I don't think so. Ascetic Hindu or Buddhist observers might have found those Greek and Roman societies to be lecherous and s3xually immodest if they had visited them in ancient times and observed their romantic lives.

I think we would have to gather all the quotes from different Arab visitors and observers of Muslim west Africa to see if the picture painted by a few visitors of widespread s3exual immorality (as defined by Islamic notions of s3xual decency) among them was really accurate, or if it was only confined to one state (like Mali).

Anyway, in the modern country of Mali (which is not the whole of the Mali empire, of course) and surrounding countries that the Mali empire stretched into, the AIDS rates are relatively low. I doubt that they are more chaste nowadays than they were in the past.

If Malians had and have problems with s3xual promiscuity but have a low AIDS rate, then this only strengthens the idea that it's not just about promiscuity.

Im pretty sure the Hausa states were doing similar practices at the time of the Fulani jihad. This is probably part of what Dan fodio meant by "corrupted islam."

Some of the Hausa were mixing Hausa Paganism with Islam or practicing Paganism alone although the rulers of the Hausa states were nominally Muslims, and, in dan Fodio's opinion and that of his followers, should not have been allowing Paganism to coexist with and mix with Islam. That was the main issue.

I don't remember coming across any quote about s3xual immorality in the pre-colonial documents written to justify dan Fodio's actions, but I definitely haven't read all the pertinent documents, so I can't state with 100% confidence that s3xual immodesty and promiscuity could not have been relevant factors.

I thought that he was 190, but I wasn't completely sure.

But I think efulefu is someone else entirely but with a similar mindset.

Mr. Cork is a comedic troll and is clearly another nairaland poster's alter ego. He made this thread just so he can make jokes.

IIIIxRoyalxIIII: Dark Skin Women Took a Major L Recently with this Whole India Arie Scandal

As my Man Judah Often Says

Those Darkskin "African Pride" Women are the most screwed up Mentally Disturbed, Insecure women on the planet

9 Million Songs about how you Love your brown skin, yet you either bleached it, or published a doctored photo to promote your new album.

Ds Women Taking an L because of that Nutty Trick

All The Black Dudes seem to Love the Lightskin Honeys.

Give me a Blue Black Boot Black Biitch.

I looked up the India Arie "scandal" and it was just very bright lighting for the picture on the cover. She didn't bleach.

I agree with those who say that Carl made the right choice. Hershel was clueless in that episode, and the fact that nobody really corrected Hershel to his face and shut him up is another thing about the episode that sucked.

The truth is that the kid was told to put down his weapon, but instead of putting the weapon down on the ground and putting his hands up, he said he would "hand it over" and started inching closer and closer to Carl to "hand over" the weapon. That's not the behavior of someone who is scared or who is really looking to surrender. The kid's behavior could reasonably be interpreted by Carl or any character with a brain as an attempt to get Carl to use one of his hands to reach for the kid's gun while it's being handed over and to also distract Carl.

The kid could have been trying to make Carl turn his eyes on the kid's gun for a brief moment so that the kid can disarm Carl or knock the gun out of Carl's other hand while one of his hands is busy with the task of receiving the kid's gun. Or even worse, it could have been an attempt by the kid to get just close enough to knock Carl out by striking him with the end part of his gun or an attempt to get close enough to shoot Carl outright or shoot somebody else in the group.

This accusation from Hershel against Carl should be dropped and forgotten completely in season 4 because it's so inane that nobody watching the show would be able to suspend their disbelief and accept that Hershel had a valid complaint.

As much as I love this show, I have to admit that that was a weak season finale. It started off good in the first few minutes with the Governor, Milton, and Andrea in that room. The Governor's line when leaving the room "in this life you kill or you die, or you die and then you kill" was especially good, but the rest of the episode wasn't that great. Some of it was predictable and the parts that weren't predictable seemed very implausible.

The first problem was Andrea having a chat with Milton instead of only focusing on picking up the pliers with her feet even though she knew he would soon be turning into a zombie and would be coming after her. Or she could have at least attempted to pick up the pliers while chatting with him if she felt that she absolutely had to chat with him and respond to his last words.

The second problem was the scene where the Governor goes psycho and kills almost all his "soldiers" when they refuse to head back to the prison and fight. The guy who lost his son in the previous episode should have just shot the Governor if he was going to raise his gun at the Governor in protest at the killing of all those people. I guess they were showing that he didn't really have the guts to take down the leader of Woodbury, but the way the Governor killed him made no sense: when the governor started slowly reaching for his pistol, and then slowly took it out, the other guy should have realized that the Governor was going to shoot him just as he shot those other people and then just shot the governor first. If they were trying to highlight the mindless obedience to authority that people can display even when it makes no sense to do so and even when their own lives are clearly threatened, they did it in a way that just isn't believable.

Andrea's death at the end was obvious and it wasn't moving in any way since she had already become an unlikeable character at that point, the way Rick's group flushed the Woodbury invaders out of the prison was too easy, and the way the writers/producers left the Governor's situation and whereabouts at the end of the episode completely mysterious was annoying. I also didn't like that mushy and sentimental conversation between Rick and Michonne earlier in the episode and I thought that Carl's anger over not being able to take part in the "fight" (which was barely a fight) to defend the prison seemed too strong and not justified/believable.

Honestly, this season finale wasn't anywhere near as good as the finales of seasons 1 and 2. Also the overall season itself was a bit less thrilling than the previous two, although it had some great moments - especially in the first half of the season that ended in December. The second half of this season just wasn't as good and they took a step down in quality and also slowed things down too much. Hopefully the next season is less slow, cuts down on the gratuitous religious references and excessive ghostly hallucinations, and involves them actually leaving that prison at some point early on. They need to head to somewhere less constrained so that more interesting things can actually happen in the show.

R.I.P.

I enjoyed a lot of his reviews. He was usually spot on about the movies he reviewed.

edit: I don't know why the thread starter changed the opening post and the title, but this thread was about the passing away of the film critic Roger Ebert.

Mrs.Chima:
You caught on finally. ..sometimes the best method debating dummies is to allow them to hang themselves further

I edited that post because I felt that I didn't need to clarify any further what exactly I meant in the post that preceded it. That's all. Pleep doesn't seem like a dummy to me at all. He does have some strong opinions that are often a bit unorthodox, which is not actually a bad thing or a problem, and sometimes I agree or disagree with those opinions. In fact, that tendency to think outside of conventional wisdom or understanding of issues is probably an advantage in getting to the truth about any situation.

edited, never mind