removetheturban:
You shot yourself in the foot in the boldened. Think!

Just imagine, when you are already confused.

The word for FIRSTBORN is different from FIRSTCREATED so if Jesus was a created being, the writers of the Bible would've used it not YOU and your Congregation interpreting FIRSTBORN to mean your imaginary FIRSTCREATED.

Let me even add to your confusion.
The Bible says Heaven and earth was created IN THE BEGINNING, and Jesus is the Firstborn of creation.

Where was Jesus abode after He was created?
Eternity with the Father or where?

Emusan:


So how did God then birth Jesus Christ? I know you must change BORN to CREATE before you can answer it

Does the word BORN and CREATE have the same meaning?

90% of you people just carry bible up and down, smh

I should ask you as well, how did God gave birth to the world ?


the mountains were born , before you gave birth to the earth and the world, from beginning to end, you are God .
Psalm 90:2


NOTE: am expecting your reply without u changing born to create.

.

Carnal people reading the bible like just another text...they have eyes but cannot see and ears they have but can never hear as they are in deep slumber. They twist and wrest the scriptures to their own destruction because the word of GOD is SPIRIT but they are CARNAL... Carnal unto death

Aside from the fact that your phraseology is a smoking mirror to linguistic expression, your egoistic intuition de-energizes your power to accommodate the truth. Read your comment again and align it with your Bible. Are you in contention with the Bible’s use of Firstborn or Creation?
Saying that I believe in a lie or calling me confused is an acidulous personal attack. Why is it hard for you to stay polite in your conversations?

Emusan:


That's how you will know you've made to believe a lie.

If the Bible says Jesus is the Firstborn of all creation and you took that to mean FIRST CREATED then you're on the wrong side of understanding.

Besides, man begat man if Jesus is the Firstborn and begotten (which you agreed) it means God is the one who begotten Him, then will what God begotten not God or a lesser god?

Maamin:


All these verses says otherwise at the Red bolded letters.

John 3:6 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

brilliant. If Jesus is begotten of God, is he of a lesser or more superior nature than God? Can a lion begat a snail. God begat God

John 10:17-18 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again .

i thought you said Jesus never exercised his own will but the bolded part clearly shows willingness. He displayed will, he could have said "no".

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

but i lay it down of myself (willingness)

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

if u understood the scriptures above then this statement wouldn't av been difficult for you to understand.
If u believe the word in Philippians 2 then you will know that Jesus willingly relinquished his glory and power and took the form of a servant. He had to build up a perfect manhood, grew in knowledge and statue and attained the level he got to by effort, d word didn't fall from heaven on him, he studied right from wen he was a boy and attained physical and spiritual maturity. Everything he did we also can do because he did as a man. It was after his resurrection he went back to reclaim his glory. In his prayer before the cross he said God should restore back the glory they shared at the beginning (John 17:5)..that was the glory he left

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

This was Jesus speaking to the Jew not him teaching his disciples. The jews knew the father but didn't know him, he is telling them here that he is doing exactly what the father wants to be done.

Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

here we see Jesus surrendering his will to that of the father, he could have done otherwise, this is to show you he has a will unlike ur claim that he doesn't.

Jesus Christ is not coequal with God the father and has never seeked his own will but the will of God the Father who is the greatest and above all that is seen and unseen.

the concept of trinity and co equality with God is a stumbling block wen u try to understand it with ur senses and corrupted knowledge from the world. Same way someone was seeing the throne in heaven with the same light as those we see our monarchs on.

Emusan:

Just imagine, when you are already confused.

The word for FIRSTBORN is different from FIRSTCREATED so if Jesus was a created being, the writers of the Bible would've used it not YOU and your Congregation interpreting FIRSTBORN to mean your imaginary FIRSTCREATED.

You do not need to insult others to explain your own beliefs. Converse sensibly in a spiritual manner. The Bible that you quote should have an effect on you. Just stop this puerile insults and converse like an adult. I am not here for a confrontation.

Emusan:

Let me even add to your confusion.
The Bible says Heaven and earth was created IN THE BEGINNING, and Jesus is the Firstborn of creation.

Going by that line of thought, the angels and Satan could pass as being a part of the Trinity because there was no record of time relating to their beginning. Will you accept that or will you make an exception to your rule?

Emusan:

Where was Jesus abode after He was created?
Eternity with the Father or where?

Proverbs 8:22 Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way,

The earliest of his achievements of long ago.+

23 From ancient times* I was installed,+

From the start, from times earlier than the earth.+

24 When there were no deep waters, I was brought forth,

When there were no springs overflowing with water.

25 Before the mountains were set in place,

Before the hills, I was brought forth,

26 When he had not yet made the earth and its fields

Or the first clods of earth’s soil.

27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there; (This was your question on IN THE BEGINNING)

When he marked out the horizon on the surface of the waters,

28 When he established* the clouds above,

When he founded the fountains of the deep,

29 When he set a decree for the sea

That its waters should not pass beyond his order,

When he established* the foundations of the earth,

30 Then I was beside him as a master worker.

I was the one he was especially fond of+ day by day;

I rejoiced before him all the time;

He seems to have dissipated. He is probably hiding somewhere right now seeing that he shot himself deeply in the foot. It was very inept of him to have come up with the FIRSTCREATE and FIRSTBORN. Where in the world did firstcreate come from? Who says that?

Peacefullove:


90% of you people just carry bible up and down, smh

I should ask you as well, how did God gave birth to the world ?


the mountains were born , before you gave birth to the earth and the world, from beginning to end, you are God .
Psalm 90:2


NOTE: am expecting your reply without u changing born to create.

Jesus is Almighty God! only herectics and antichrists Denys it.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John says that in the beginning Jesus was. If Jesus was the first to be created this would contradict



1:1John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John says that in the beginning Jesus was. If Jesus was the first to be created this would contradict the above verse .

1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Sayqqi

solite3:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John says that in the beginning Jesus was. If Jesus was the first to be created this would contradict the above verse .

1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Sayqqi

Going by your ideology, everything was created by him but according to the Jesus, he was by the side of his father from whom all things came. All things came from Jehovah God by(through) Jesus. The Bible said that Jesus is the earliest of Jehovah's works.
Do you have a problem with the Bible?

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
says that in the beginning Jesus was. If Jesus was the first to be created this would contradict the above verse .

1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

My question to you jws is, was there something that was made without the word? What was it?

That is why the Bible called Jesus the ONLY BEGOTTEN son.

Have you ever wondered why he is called the only begotten son of God?

Every other thing created was through Jesus but Jesus was begotten by God himself.

The only one to have that title "begotten" is Jesus.

So, being a master worker, Jesus learned from Jehovah God and through him, every other thing both in heaven and on earth were created.

If you are referring to the beginning, the beginning of what?
Proverbs 8:22 Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way,

The earliest of his achievements of long ago.+

23 From ancient times* I was installed,

From the start,

Was the Bible lying? When Jesus was on earth did he discredit this scripture? No! Nevertheless, he corroborated by saying the words in

John 8:28...I do nothing on My own, but speak exactly what the Father has taught Me. 29He who sent Me is with Me. He has not left Me alone, because I always do what pleases Him

Proverbs 8:30 Then I was beside him as a master worker.
I was the one he was especially fond of day by day

solite3:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
says that in the beginning Jesus was. If Jesus was the first to be created this would contradict the above verse .

1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

My question to you jws is, was there something that was made without the word? What was it?

removetheturban:
Going by your ideology, everything was created by him but according to the Jesus, he was by the side of his father from whom all things came. All things came from Jehovah God by(through) Jesus. The Bible said that Jesus is the earliest of Jehovah's works.
Do you have a problem with the Bible?

there is nothing here to argue . John said there was nothing that was not created without Jesus. This automatically rules him out as been created. As for you riddiculus statement. No where did Jesus say he was created.
You yourself said All things were created through Jesus by Jehovah God. That again rules Jesus out as been created by Jehovah God. Then who created Jesus? How many things did Jehovah created? Through whom did Jehovah created those things?

You are fighting with your fears. Jesus told 'you' in Proverbs chapter 8 that he is the earliest of his works and then he was there before all the creations because all other things came through him.

The Bible says 'in the Beginning, God created the heavens and the earth'. At the point, before he created the heavens and the earth, Jesus said that he was there and that he was the earliest of his ways. He said that he was installed before other things came to be. Is that hard to accept? At what point, then, did Jesus learn all the things that he learned from the father? At what point did he become a master worker at his side?

Proverbs 8:22 Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way,

The earliest of his achievements of long ago.

23 From ancient times* I was installed,

From the start, from times earlier than the earth

You are talking of the beginning when God made the heavens and the earth. Look at the bolden texts and you will find the answers. It says "FROM TIMES EARLIER THAN THE EARTH"

Your beginning is not Jesus' beginning. Your beginning is the creation of the heavens and the earth but before then, Jesus said that there is an earlier time and that is the time that Jehovah produced him.

He said "From the start".

The time spent arguing is enough time to allow the word of God to pierce through your marrows.

solite3:
there is nothing here to argue . John said there was nothing that was not created without Jesus. This automatically rules him out as been created. As for you riddiculus statement. No where did Jesus say he was created.
You yourself said All things were created through Jesus by Jehovah God. That again rules Jesus out as been created by Jehovah God. Then who created Jesus? How many things did Jehovah created? Through whom did Jehovah created those things?

[quote author=removetheturban post=66536279]That is why the Bible called Jesus the ONLY BEGOTTEN son.

Have you ever wondered why he is called the only begotten son of God?

Jesus has always been the Son of God from eternity. Unless you want to deny the eternal fatherhood of God the father. Denying Jesus deity is also denying the father.
Not the heresy you are spewing.
1 John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Every other thing created was through Jesus but Jesus was begotten by God himself.

@ bold for you to deny christ's deity you must alter the scripture to suit your corrupt and herectical teachings.

The only one to have that title "begotten" is Jesus.

So, being a master worker, Jesus learned from Jehovah God and through him[b], every other[/b] thing both in heaven and on earth were created.

was it all things Jesus created or some things? Keep living in denial. The bible is clear Jesus made all things argue with yourself.

If you are referring to the beginning, the beginning of what?

the beginning the very start of creation Jesus was, meaning he is no part of creation.

Proverbs 8:22 Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way,

The earliest of his achievements of long ago.+

23 From ancient times* I was installed,

From the start,

Was the Bible lying? When Jesus was on earth did he discredit this scripture? No! Nevertheless, he corroborated by saying the words in

the bible is not lying but watch tower.
Jesus did not corroborate your heresy but expose them when he said that he and his father are one.

John 8:28...I do nothing on My own, but speak exactly what the Father has taught Me. 29He who sent Me is with Me. He has not left Me alone, because I always do what pleases Him

Proverbs 8:30 Then I was beside him as a master worker.
I was the one he was especially fond of day by day

[quote author=removetheturban post=66536279]That is why the Bible called Jesus the ONLY BEGOTTEN son.

Have you ever wondered why he is called the only begotten son of God?

Jesus has always been the Son of God from eternity. Unless you want to deny the eternal fatherhood of God the father. Denying Jesus deity is also denying the father.
Not the heresy you are spewing.
1 John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Every other thing created was through Jesus but Jesus was begotten by God himself.

@ bold for you to deny christ's deity you must alter the scripture to suit your corrupt and herectical teachings.

The only one to have that title "begotten" is Jesus.

So, being a master worker, Jesus learned from Jehovah God and through him[b], every other[/b] thing both in heaven and on earth were created.

was it all things Jesus created or some things? Keep living in denial. The bible is clear Jesus made all things argue with yourself.

If you are referring to the beginning, the beginning of what?

the beginning the very start of creation Jesus was, meaning he is no part of creation.

Proverbs 8:22 Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way,

The earliest of his achievements of long ago.+

23 From ancient times* I was installed,

From the start,

Was the Bible lying? When Jesus was on earth did he discredit this scripture? No! Nevertheless, he corroborated by saying the words in

the bible is not lying but watch tower.
Jesus did not corroborate your heresy but expose them when he said that he and his father are one.

John 8:28...I do nothing on My own, but speak exactly what the Father has taught Me. 29He who sent Me is with Me. He has not left Me alone, because I always do what pleases Him

Proverbs 8:30 Then I was beside him as a master worker.
I was the one he was especially fond of day by day

proverb 8:22 - 30 is a poetry written about God's wisdom, about the suprimacy of God's wisdom.
Proverbs 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old

Note carefully that wisdom is not part of God's works.
The Lord just possess wisdom not created wisdom.

[

quote author=removetheturban post=66536894]You are fighting with your fears. Jesus told 'you' in Proverbs chapter 8 that he is the earliest of his works and then he was there before all the creations because all other things came through him.

if he is before ALL CREATION how can he be part of those creation?

The Bible says 'in the Beginning, God created the heavens and the earth'. At the point, before he created the heavens and the earth, Jesus said that he was there and that he was the earliest of his ways. He said that he was installed before other things came to be. Is that hard to accept? At what point, then, did Jesus learn all the things that he learned from the father? At what point did he become a master worker at his side?

All these are garbage

[e]Proverbs 8:22 Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way,

The earliest of his achievements of long ago.

23 From ancient times* I was installed,

From the start, from times earlier than the earth

You are talking of the beginning when God made the heavens and the earth. Look at the bolden texts and you will find the answers. It says "FROM TIMES EARLIER THAN THE EARTH"

first you didn't address how this verse relates to Jesus secondly,

Proverbs 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

The writer states that wisdom was set up from everlasting which means wisdom has no beginning.

Your beginning is not Jesus' beginning. Your beginning is the creation of the heavens and the earth but before then, Jesus said that there is an earlier time and that is the time that Jehovah produced him.

He said "From the start".

The time spent arguing is enough time to allow the word of God to pierce through your marrows.

Jesus had no beginning,
John 1:1 says in the beginning the word was.

Jesus was before the heavens which means he doesn't have a location where he resides which makes him God Almighty. All created things has a place where they reside, only the omnipotent, omniscience and omnipresent does not dwell in places.
2 Chronicles 6:18 But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!

solite3:
the bible is not lying but watch tower.
Jesus did not corroborate your heresy but expose them when he said that he and his father are one.

Jesus told 'you' in Proverbs chapter 8 that he is the earliest of Jehovah's works and then he was there before all the creations because all other things came through him.

The Watchtower did not write your own Bible. You should respect the word of God and not blaspheme by saying that Jesus did not corroborate the truth. He said all the laws and prophets directed toward him. Learn to be seasoned and not acidic.


The Bible says 'in the Beginning, God created the heavens and the earth'. At the point, before he created the heavens and the earth, Jesus said that he was there and that he was the earliest of his ways. He said that he was installed before all things came to be ('other' in "other things" is a word that I used as a determiner to exempt Jesus himself. I wasn't quoting from the scripture directly. It was simply an explanation. Try harder next time in your fault-finding game).
At what point, then, did Jesus learn all the things that he learned from the father? At what point did he become a master worker at his side?

Proverbs 8:22 Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way,

The earliest of his achievements of long ago.

23 From ancient times* I was installed,

From the start, from times earlier than the earth

You are talking of the beginning when God made the heavens and the earth. Look at the bolden texts and you will find the answers. It says "FROM TIMES EARLIER THAN THE EARTH"

Your beginning is not Jesus' beginning. Your beginning is the creation of the heavens and the earth but before then, Jesus said that there is an earlier time and that is the time that Jehovah produced him.

He said "From the start".

The time spent arguing is enough time to allow the word of God to pierce through your marrows.

removetheturban:
Jesus told 'you' in Proverbs chapter 8 that he is the earliest of Jehovah's works and then he was there before all the creations because all other things came through him.

The Watchtower did not write your own Bible. You should respect the word of God and not blaspheme by saying that Jesus did not corroborate the truth. He said all the laws and prophets directed toward him. Learn to be seasoned and not acidic.


The Bible says 'in the Beginning, God created the heavens and the earth'. At the point, before he created the heavens and the earth, Jesus said that he was there and that he was the earliest of his ways. He said that he was installed before all things came to be ('other' in "other things" is a word that I used as a determiner to exempt Jesus himself. I wasn't quoting from the scripture directly. It was simply an explanation. Try harder next time in your fault-finding game).
At what point, then, did Jesus learn all the things that he learned from the father? At what point did he become a master worker at his side?

Proverbs 8:22 Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way,

The earliest of his achievements of long ago.

23 From ancient times* I was installed,

From the start, from times earlier than the earth

You are talking of the beginning when God made the heavens and the earth. Look at the bolden texts and you will find the answers. It says "FROM TIMES EARLIER THAN THE EARTH"

Your beginning is not Jesus' beginning. Your beginning is the creation of the heavens and the earth but before then, Jesus said that there is an earlier time and that is the time that Jehovah produced him.

He said "From the start".

The time spent arguing is enough time to allow the word of God to pierce through your marrows.

first of all proverb 8:22 is not saying wisdom was created because wisdon is not part of God's works.

Secondly, saying there is another beginning before the beginning as recorded in Genesis 1:1 is saying that the beginning as recorded in Genesis 1:1 is not the beginning.

John 1:1 use a definite atrticle 'The' and 'beginning' without any object to it. To tell u ' The beginning' as used there is the ultimate beginning.
John could have said ' in the beginning of the heaven and eath the word was.. But he said in the beginning was the word.

Jehovah false witness believes God was not alone did not create the heavens. But Job tell us he alone created the heavens.
Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.

solite3:
if he is before ALL CREATION how can he be part of those creation?

You should pray for divine understanding to open your eyes.

solite3:

All these are garbage

Because it hangs you in the air. Your only way to contend with the truth when you have no exit is to discard it. The truth remains the truth regardless of who you think you are.

solite3:

first you didn't address how this verse relates to Jesus secondly,

If you still doubt that it is about Jesus, then, why have you been using it as a pointer? You should have signaled from the get-go that you refute the word of God in the book of Proverbs.

solite3:

Proverbs 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
The writer states that wisdom was set up from everlasting which means wisdom has no beginning.

Are you serious? You mean Proverbs 8:23 refers to wisdom and not Jesus?

solite3:

Jesus had no beginning,

Will you erase Proverbs 8:22 and John 3:16 from your Bible?

solite3:

John 1:1 says in the beginning the word was.

Jesus was before the heavens which means he doesn't have a location where he resides which makes him God Almighty.

Let me break this down for you.
The beginning that you know is the beginning that God created the heavens and the earth and Genesis 1:1 states.
John 1:1 corroborates it by stating that Jesus was with God in the beginning.
Proverbs 8:22 then, says that Jehovah produced Jesus as the beginning of his way,
The earliest of his achievements of long ago.

Hear what Proverbs 8:23 says "From ancient times I was installed,
From the start, from times earlier than the earth".
26 When he had not yet made the earth and its fields (Jesus was produced from the earliest before the earth. Remember that your beginning starts with the creation of the earth*.)

Now, going further we will get some more clarifications on the life before the founding or creation of the earth which is your beginning.

27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there; (This was your question on IN THE BEGINNING. Jesus had been produced and installed before the heavens. Imagine the line of activities narrated here leading to further creations. Remember that we initially talked about the earth and verse 27 talks about the heavens)

Then, what was Jesus before the creation and what was his role before and during the creation? Let the Bible say.
Proverbs 8:30 Then I was beside him as a master worker.

Now, addressing your question of God not having a location before the heavens, let the Bible enlighten you of a place higher ABOVE the heavens. (remember, the heavens and earth is your beginning. This is your strength or argument.)

Psalm 113:4 Jehovah is high above the nations. His glory is far above the heavens. (Now, you can tell of a location above the heavens. The glory of God exceeds the heavens. These are the same heavens that you hold as the beginning. So, when the Bible says before the heavens were created Jehovah produced Jesus, always note that there is a place that is higher than the heavens)

Ephesians 4:10 And the same one who descended is the one who ascended higher than all the heavens (for a second time you have been shown a place higher than the beginning that you know. The beginning that you firmly grip on to discredit the truth that Jesus told us about his father who is our father, his God who is our God; and the truth about how he was PRODUCED and existed before the founding of the heavens and earth that you know.

Psalm 8:1 O Jehovah our Lord, how majestic your name is throughout the earth;
You have set your splendor even HIGHER THAN THE HEAVENS!

Now, you can tell that there is more for you to learn. The beginning that you know does not justify the beginning of Jesus. He was by far the earliest. He has lived for eons of years.

So, next time do not use "in the beginning" to dispell the word of God. Jesus called himself a BEGOTTEN SON. You and I know the true meaning of that clause. Jesus was not crazy to have said that. He was only corroborating what has been said all along in Proverbs 8:22.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth (and also type with your fingers) "Jesus is Lord(not the only true God) and believe in your heart that God(Jehovah) raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Do you really want to be saved?

You do not really need to go so low as to trading insults. Maturity is a virtue for sensible ones. If you have a point, tender it in a civilized manner

solite3:
Jehovah false witness believes God was not alone did not create the heavens. But Job tell us he alone created the heavens.
Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.

The same article "THE" was used in Proverbs 8:22 Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way,

But then it went further to explain define what beginning which is "of his ways". The beginning of his ways. We are not talking about the works yet it says 'ways'. This was before the 'let us make this or that phase'. John 1:1 went on to existence which is in relation to Genesis 1:1 but Proverbs chapter 8 tells us of a time before the beginning. It says the "earliest". Other versions say Before any of his works. This takes you straight to Colossians 1:15


The deal is, if you accept that this chapter referred to Jesus, you are dead-trapped. If you refute it, you are dead-trapped. Your best bet is to keep juggling. I see how you try to use other verses to overshadow this particular verse. You just can't get around it. What a trance!

solite3:
first of all proverb 8:22 is not saying wisdom was created because wisdon is not part of God's works.

Secondly, saying there is another beginning before the beginning as recorded in Genesis 1:1 is saying that the beginning as recorded in Genesis 1:1 is not the beginning.

John 1:1 use a definite atrticle 'The' and 'beginning' without any object to it. To tell u ' The beginning' as used there is the ultimate beginning.
John could have said ' in the beginning of the heaven and eath the word was.. But he said in the beginning was the word.

Peacefullove:


90% of you people just carry bible up and down, smh

I should ask you as well, how did God gave birth to the world ?


the mountains were born , before you gave birth to the earth and the world, from beginning to end, you are God .
Psalm 90:2


NOTE: am expecting your reply without u changing born to create.

99% of you just hypocritically turn to another version of the Bible why uphold NWT over them.

and 99% of you just read Bible without paying attention to how words are used.

According to Adam Clarke, "The mountains and hill appear to have been everlasting; but as they were brought fourth out of the WOMB of eternity, their was a time when they were not: but THOU hast been ab aeternitate a parte ante, ad aeternitatem a parte post;"

In short this is just a simple way of telling people that God is from everlasting to everlasting even before the mountains and hills that appear to be from everlasting to people.

Now compare this to when the term of FIRSTBORN was used for Christ.

That's why God didn't call mountains a child because they can't be compared to living being of 'BORN' and what God begotten is God.

Lastly, Bible expressly show how mountains were created by a command in Genesis which is part of Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning, God CREATED heavens and Earth" Unless you want to tell us that mountains weren't part of what God created here.

Can you show me where the Scripture ever said Jesus Christ was CREATED?

removetheturban:
He seems to have dissipated. He is probably hiding somewhere right now seeing that he shot himself deeply in the foot. It was very inept of him to have come up with the FIRSTCREATE and FIRSTBORN. Where in the world did firstcreate come from? Who says that?

Don't mind him, he is just a troll ... Finally, he replies after his long leave to brainstorming his assignment

Emusan:


99% of you just hypocritically turn to another version of the Bible why uphold NWT over them.

and 99% of you just read Bible without paying attention to how words are used.

According to Adam Clarke, "The mountains and hill appear to have been everlasting; but as they were brought fourth out of the WOMB of eternity, their was a time when they were not: but THOU hast been ab aeternitate a parte ante, ad aeternitatem a parte post;"

Even Adam Clarke cannot save you at this junction. From the underlined, how exactly were mountain BORN from the womb of eternity?

Does born means create?

In short this is just a simple way of telling people that God is from everlasting to everlasting even before the mountains and hills that appear to be from everlasting to people.

Na wah, and who ask you if God is from everlasting , how are mountains born ? How do you explain without changing born to create? Very Simple

Now compare this to when the term of FIRSTBORN was used for Christ.

That's why God didn't call mountains a child because they can't be compared to living being of 'BORN' and what God begotten is God.

Lastly, Bible expressly show how mountains were created by a command in Genesis which is part of Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning, God CREATED heavens and Earth" Unless you want to tell us that mountains weren't part of what God created here.

Can you show me where the Scripture ever said Jesus Christ was CREATED?

Now you confess that mountain were BORN OF Creation . and Jesus was also born of creation as seen in Col 1 vs 15

Only difference is Jesus is a First among everything born of creation. Comprehende?

@ solite3 , Can you tell me why Jesus is called son of God a title belonging to created being's if he was not created?

...but why are Muslims so pained about what Christians believe in? You hardly see a Christian studying the Quran with the intention of arguing with a muslim rather they pray to GOD to do His work but the muslims on the other hand are so interested in making Christianity vanish even if it by using AK47s and rocket propelling guns...The Quran speaks of a day of reckoning, so does the Bible and other scriptures from other religions so why can't we all wait till that time and hear from GOD Himself. We should let GOD defend Himself and cease from defending GOD. GOD knows who He is, that is if I am even permitted to use the pronoun 'HE', and He will explain Himself on that day when He will not be hidden from anyone. So what's the fuss with all the arguments wey dey be like sey some people don ready to kill! Abeg e don do!

[

quote author=removetheturban post=66540515] You should pray for divine understanding to open your eyes.
Because it hangs you in the air. Your only way to contend with the truth when you have no exit is to discard it. The truth remains the truth regardless of who you think you are.
If you still doubt that it is about Jesus, then, why have you been using it as a pointer? You should have signaled from the get-go that you refute the word of God in the book of Proverbs.

Just because I do not agree with you doesn't mean I reject scripture. Proverb 8 is not talking about Jesus at least not literally. First the speaker is a 'She'
Proverbs 8:1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice? 8:2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths. 8:12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.

If you think proverb 8 is literally talking about Jesus, is Jesus a woman! Who is prudence?

Secondly, wisdom told you he is not one of God's ancient works which in itself has totally ridiculed your claim that he was Jehovah first works.
Verses 23 told you she is from eternity.

Are you serious? You mean Proverbs 8:23 refers to wisdom and not Jesus?
Will you erase Proverbs 8:22 and John 3:16 from your Bible? Let me break this down for you.
The beginning that you know is the beginning that God created the heavens and the earth and Genesis 1:1 states.
John 1:1 corroborates it by stating that Jesus was with God in the beginning.


Proverbs 8:22 then, says that Jehovah produced Jesus as the beginning of his way,
The earliest of his achievements of long ago.

Hear what Proverbs 8:23 says "From ancient times I was installed,
From the start, from times earlier than the earth".
26 When he had not yet made the earth and its fields (Jesus was produced from the earliest before the earth. Remember that your beginning starts with the creation of the earth*.)

first and foremost you have not resolved the issue of how proverb 8 refers to Jesus.
The bible was clear when it said in THE BIGINNING a definite article was used telling u it is only one beginnings.
The bible said Jesus was with God not created how did God create Jesus since the bible says that nothing was made without the world.

! You claim there is another beginning. Point it out in the scripture or it is just one of your theory to explain the unexplainable.

Now, going further we will get some more clarifications on the life before the founding or creation of the earth which is your beginning.

27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there; (This was your question on IN THE BEGINNING. Jesus had been produced and installed before the heavens. Imagine the line of activities narrated here leading to further creations. Remember that we initially talked about the earth and verse 27 talks about the heavens)

Then, what was Jesus before the creation and what was his role before and during the creation? Let the Bible say.
Proverbs 8:30 Then I was beside him as a master worker.

God you agree Jesus is existed before heavens. Where was Jesus staying? according to u somebody was with Jehovah during creation?

Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.


Now, addressing your question of God not having a location before the heavens, let the Bible enlighten you of a place higher ABOVE the heavens. (remember, the heavens and earth is your beginning. This is your strength or argument.)

Psalm 113:4 Jehovah is high above the nations. His glory is far above the heavens. (Now, you can tell of a location above the heavens. The glory of God exceeds the heavens. These are the same heavens that you hold as the beginning. So, when the Bible says before the heavens were created Jehovah produced Jesus, always note that there is a place that is higher than the heavens)

Ephesians 4:10 And the same one who descended is the one who ascended higher than all the heavens (for a second time you have been shown a place higher than the beginning that you know. The beginning that you firmly grip on to discredit the truth that Jesus told us about his father who is our father, his God who is our God; and the truth about how he was PRODUCED and existed before the founding of the heavens and earth that you know.

Psalm 8:1 O Jehovah our Lord, how majestic your name is throughout the earth;
You have set your splendor even HIGHER THAN THE HEAVENS![/quote]
Yes the glory of God is beyond the heavens bug doesn't mean there is a place beyond heaven. God's throne is in heaven

Psalms 11:4 The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD's throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.

Isaiah 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

Saying there is a place higher than heaven means there is a place higher than God's throne.
How can Jesus be living in a place above God's throne and at the same time sit on the right hand side of God?




]

Now, you can tell that there is more for you to learn. The beginning that you know does not justify the beginning of Jesus. He was by far the earliest. He has lived for eons of years.

So, next time do not use "in the beginning" to dispell the word of God. Jesus called himself a BEGOTTEN SON. You and I know the true meaning of that clause. Jesus was not crazy to have said that. He was only corroborating what has been said all along in Proverbs 8:22

. Jesus existed from eternity as he was with the father.



Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth (and also type with your fingers) "Jesus is Lord(not the only true God) and believe in your heart that God(Jehovah) raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Do you really want to be saved?[/quote] do you know what it means to be saved.

solite3:

Just because I do not agree with you doesn't mean I reject scripture. Proverb 8 is not talking about Jesus at least not literally. First the speaker is a 'She'
Proverbs 8:1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice? 8:2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths. 8:12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.

If you think proverb 8 is literally talking about Jesus, is Jesus a woman! Who is prudence?

For the sake of argument, let us flow with your point. If the speaker is a 'she', did she exist before the beginning? If she existed before the beginning then you just contradicted yourself.

solite3:

Secondly, wisdom told you he is not one of God's ancient works which in itself has totally ridiculed your claim that he was Jehovah first works.
Verses 23 told you she is from eternity.

Can you use your pronouns more appropriately? I can barely comprehend a thing.

solite3:

first and foremost you have not resolved the issue of how proverb 8 refers to Jesus.

Well, I have tried my best and if it isn't good enough, there will be a better time.

solite3:

The bible was clear when it said in THE BIGINNING a definite article was used telling u it is only one beginnings.
The bible said Jesus was with God not created how did God create Jesus since the bible says that nothing was made without the world.

! You claim there is another beginning. Point it out in the scripture or it is just one of your theory to explain the unexplainable.

I never told you of another beginning. I told you that the Bible said that someone was PRODUCED as the beginning of God's ways. That one is the earliest of God's achievement in Proverbs 8:22. New Living Translation renders it as
"The LORD [b]formed [/b]me from the beginning, before he created anything else.

Now, let us put the word 'achievement' into perspective. If you can help me to define the word, you will arrive at 'something accomplished'. If we use the definition of a verb in this context you will see that 'an action' has been completed.
Now, if an action was completed, and then the Bible chapter went further to explain in Proverbs 8:30 Then I was beside him as a master worker.

The one who is beside God as a master worker is the one same one who said that he was produced. No Bible version could lie about that. It is a factual fact. The same person who is the earliest achievement of God is the one beside him. Now, fast-forward to the Jesus that you know. Where is Jesus located in the Bible, 'at the right hand of God' (alternatively, 'beside')

solite3:

Good you agree Jesus is existed before heavens. Where was Jesus staying? according to u somebody was with Jehovah during creation?

Not according to me, I did not say that to you. I showed you from your own Bible what the word of God says.
Proverbs 8:27 has the answer to your question. "When he prepared the heavens, I was there".

1 Peter 3:22 who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand
Acts 7:55 Stephen said the same thing
Hebrews 12:2
Acts 5:31
Romans 8:34

The above emphasize Proverbs 8:30 Then I was beside him as a master worker

solite3:

Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.

Yes, he alone deserves the glory and honor. He gives to whomever he chooses.
Revelation 4:11 You are worthy, Jehovah our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they came into existence and were created.”

When a man pays builders to build a house for him, the house is called his not the builders. It becomes Donald's house. Donald takes full glory and achievement for the house. He only may choose to give props to the builder by telling people about the builder. It is his choice.

Jehovah gave Jesus the love of having everything come into existence through him. Jesus is the only one directly created by Jehovah and the only one to be directly resurrected by Jehovah. Acts 26:23