gensteejay:

I can see you took offence about my earlier remark. Sorry, no insult was meant.

Well, just in case you actually care for evidence, please know that I have not taken any offence about your earlier remark which was in no way offensive. In my own view, you asked an honest question, which I admired immensely, and I simply responded.

No one should need to apologise for being inquisitive and for asking questions, and the person being asked should not be offended unless the person being asked is an ignorant arrogant fuq, which I hope I am not.

gensteejay:

That's scepticism. If that's a religion, can you tell us the god(s), holy book, tenets of worship of scepticism?

All these are well-known traits of religion.

Scepticism is an aspect in philosophy that goes as far back as the ancient times. I would like to see you present facts that can back up your assertion.

I have not said anywhere that a sceptical person needs to be religious, though one can be religiously sceptical, or be sceptical about religion.

As for evidence, I myself would claim to be sceptical about religion which is why I look deeply into religion in the first place and not just accept any dogma, conviction, belief, 'God said', etc without researching them first; and I would also claim to be religiously sceptical at the same time, since I religiously spend my time being sceptical about religion.

I'm sorry I am unable to physically bring myself before you as evidence however, but you might be able to tell from what I have written over the years.

FOLYKAZE:

I personally would have love to explore tradition spirituality through Orisha but I will not find much info without been initiated into the circle. Same applies to grail message and enkancar and the likes.

That's the same problem I currently face, which is why I conduct my research about these things online. Though that could be tedious, time-wasting, and may lack some depth. But that is better than belonging to a religion or a circle.

FOLYKAZE:
I dont know about what he said. The Ifa system was brought by Orunmila (God of wisdom in Yoruba).

This is Otem's account of Ifa: https://www.nairaland.com/2938907/doctrine-ufos/75#65046723
He also said something about AFRIca here: https://www.nairaland.com/2938907/doctrine-ufos/75#65019156

If you have time, I would like you to go through the thread and, if possible, tell me your evaluation of the history, especially as regards African spirituality. Thanks

gensteejay:

Nothing concrete in this submission. When scepticism gets included in the list of world religions, along with other areas like sports (some people say their club or even their profession is their religion), that will make you a prophet or seer

When we are being factual, every sane person knows today's religions. Unless they want to be hypocritical.

Sorry, but did you just completely disregard the definition of religion that I gave? Did it include scepticism as a world religion? Can one not be religiously sceptical, or be sceptical about religion, or be both at the same time? Or is it the case that one cannot be one of the not "sane people" like wiki and I appear to be? Or is wiki not factual enough?

Which is it?

FOLYKAZE:


It is very important to talk about those words and understand the terminologies before diving into any discussion. Without that, we go round in an endless circle as we have seen in many cases in the past.

A truer word has not been spoken I'd say.

It is most important for anyone who claims to be a "seeker of knowledge", or a researcher, and everyone in fact, because if one doesn't
"understand (and explain) the terminologies before diving into any discussion" one would not understand what is being said and one would be "going round in endless circles" and would never learn, nor teach, for that matter, and we would not grow nor evolve.

budaatum:

Sorry, but did you just completely disregard the definition of religion that I gave?

No, I didn't. I just didn't find any concrete evidence to change my stance that skepticism is not a religion.

budaatum:
Did it include scepticism as a world religion? Can one not be religiously sceptical, or be sceptical about religion, or be both at the same time? Or is it the case that one cannot be one of the not "sane people" like wiki and I appear to be? Or is wiki not factual enough?

Which is it?

All these questions will complicate things. If skepticism is a religion, then just about anything can be termed religion as well.

I could say Chelsea (as a fan of the club) is my religion. Or Physics or my work is my religion. People say these things. That doesn't make sports, science, etc. a religion.

Instead of saying skepticism, atheism, science, etc. is a religion; IMO, I feel it is better to state that some people approach a field like science, for instance, as a religion. The 2 positions are quite different.

budaatum:

I'm sorry, I don't get you. You cannot possibly be claiming one cannot be sceptical about "religion", the definition of which "there is no scholarly consensus over what precisely constitutes it". Or are you? Why should a definition given for "religion" look like a definition for "scepticism"?

The definition above was given as a definition of "religion", and not a definition of "scepticism", which generally means "a questioning attitude or doubt towards one or more items of putative knowledge or belief or dogma or philosophy, particularly epistemology, and can be applied to any topic such as politics, religion, philosophy and pseudoscience etc", according to Wiki, and to God, according to me and as shown by my going up the mountain with Moses and Aaron and the 70 et al, which is scepticism par excellence if you asked me, and about God, which is often a topic of religion.

God does not like scepticism or being sceptical, even Jesus mentioned something about people doubting him and even cursed some Jews.

Scepticism is more like being neutral and questioning things, being religious has to do with faith, you don't question your beliefs/dogmas.

budaatum:

This "sceptic" has immense faith (confidence and trust), in what this "sceptic" knows because this "sceptic" has done and continues to do her research.

I disagree with scepticism having to do with faith, it's the opposite.

When you are sceptical about something you don't have confidence and trust in that thing.

FOLYKAZE:


They have tried but can't

I personally would have love to explore tradition spirituality through Orisha but I will not find much info without been initiated into the circle. Same applies to grail message and enkancar and the likes.

I don't get you.

You want to become a mathematician without going through a math training? Any serious spiritual path will require that you thread the path, meaning walk the walk.

There is not much you can truly learn in esotérica by mere reading and listening. You want to walk the walk and see for yourself. Experience is the key to true knowledge.

tintingz:

God does not like scepticism or being sceptical, even Jesus mentioned something about people doubting him and even cursed some Jews.

Sorry tintingz, but where did you get that from?!

God never told me any such crap. But if by chance God did say to me that "God does not like scepticism or being sceptical", then I, buda, would tell that God to go fuq itself and look for its worshippers somewhere else, because I, buda, doth not bow down and worship a God who claims to have created me the sceptical way that I am and then tells me the sceptism created in me is unpure and it doesn't like it!

In fact, . like, how ridiculously silly!

tintingz:
Scepticism is more like being neutral and questioning things, being religious has to do with faith, you don't question your beliefs/dogmas.

"You", be "neutral" and "don't question your beliefs/dogmas". (I'm advising you again tintingz, to talk for yourself though let me add so you don't think I'm annoyed that you don't heed my advice).

I religiously question beliefs and dogmas etc all the time because by questioning them do I get to separate the wheat from the chaff instead of accepting any odd dogma or belief blindly.

LoJ:

I don't get you.

You want to become a mathematician without going through a math training? Any serious spiritual path will require that you thread the path, meaning walk the walk.

There is not much you can truly learn in esotérica by mere reading and listening. You want to walk the walk and see for yourself. Experience is the key to true knowledge.

There are stages in life. Maybe when I get pass reading and listening, I will take the bold step unto the next stage.

gensteejay:

That's the same problem I currently face, which is why I conduct my research about these things online. Though that could be tedious, time-wasting, and may lack some depth. But that is better than belonging to a religion or a circle.


This is Otem's account of Ifa: https://www.nairaland.com/2938907/doctrine-ufos/75#65046723
He also said something about AFRIca here: https://www.nairaland.com/2938907/doctrine-ufos/75#65019156

If you have time, I would like you to go through the thread and, if possible, tell me your evaluation of the history, especially as regards African spirituality. Thanks

I have seen some of the guy post. Even when his posts make sense, I do not buy it. Maybe we see things differently. I will try to decipher the meaning of is message when next he post.

FOLYKAZE:


There are stages in life. Maybe when I get pass reading and listening, I will take the bold step unto the next stage.

Of course. The choice is yours and I am not blaming you. I was responding to a post of yours that sounded like a complain.

FOLYKAZE:


I have seen some of the guy post. Even when his posts make sense, I do not buy it.

Do you have any specific reason for saying this?

FOLYKAZE:
I will try to decipher the meaning of is message when next he post.

Ok, if you feel it is necessary.

budaatum:

Sorry tintingz, but where did you get that from?!

God never told me any such crap. But if by chance God did say to me that "God does not like scepticism or being sceptical", then I, buda, would tell that God to go fuq itself and look for its worshippers somewhere else, because I, buda, doth not bow down and worship a God who claims to have created me the sceptical way that I am and then tells me the sceptism created in me is unpure and it doesn't like it!

In fact, . like, how ridiculously silly!

God don't like people doubting him and questioning his authorities. I gave example of Jesus cursing the Jews and even got annoyed at one of his disciples

"You", be "neutral" and "don't question your beliefs/dogmas". (I'm advising you again tintingz, to talk for yourself though let me add so you don't think I'm annoyed that you don't heed my advice).

I religiously question beliefs and dogmas etc all the time because by questioning them do I get to separate the wheat from the chaff instead of accepting any odd dogma or belief blindly.

You're not a faith person.

tintingz:

When you are sceptical about something you don't have confidence and trust in that thing.

This is true. When one is sceptical about something, one has no faith nor "confidence and trust" in that thing. That's why I am not sceptical about things I have faith and "confidence and trust" in. But I think you might be applying your scepticism at the wrong time.

I, do not go about being sceptical about things that I have checked etc and know. Like most people, when rain is falling on my head and I look up and see rain falling and I am wet and I am cold, I do not stupidly stand there being sceptical about the rain that is falling on my head making me feel wet and cold, because I would have finished applying my scepticism and now know and have faith and "confidence and trust" that I am wet and I am cold as a result of the rain that is falling on my head.

I start off being sceptical about things, see. That scepticism motivates me to diligently check, research, explore, question, experiment etc, those things, and after checking, researching, exploring, questioning, experimenting etcing those things, I now have information and data and knowledge about those things that I can base my faith and "confidence and trust" in on, or not, if that be the case.

tintingz:
God don't like people doubting him and questioning his authorities. I gave example of Jesus cursing the Jews and even got annoyed at one of his disciples

Your God does not like you "doubting him and questioning his authorities" tintingz. My God created me the questioning way that I am.

I can only suggest you change Gods if you don't like the God you have. One should not be bowing to a God that gives one a brain but does not like when one uses it to question.

tintingz:
You're not a faith person.

Yet, here is me with so much faith that I would question my God so that I have even more faith once my God provides me with answers to my questioning.

P.s. You did not give any "example of Jesus cursing the Jews and even got annoyed at one of his disciples". If you don't mind, provide chapter and verse please, you should know by now that buda does not do "them say"!

budaatum:

Your God does not like you "doubting him and questioning his authorities" tintingz. My God created me the questioning way that I am.

Do you ever doubt if your God exist?

I can only suggest you change Gods if you don't like the God you have. One should not be bowing to a God that gives one a brain but does not like when one uses it to question.

I don't believe in any God.

Yet, here is me with so much faith that I would question my God so that I have even more faith once my God provides me with answers to my questioning.

Then you don't have faith in your God, not a religious person. And oh, you should also be sceptical on the questions you're to ask your God.

You are like the ancient Greek sceptists that question their Gods.

P.s. You did not give any "example of Jesus cursing the Jews and even got annoyed at one of his disciples". If you don't mind, provide chapter and verse please, you should know by now that buda does not do "them say"!

Have you not heard of apostle Thomas whom the word doubting Thomas is used after him?

Here's Jesus cursing the Jews for doubting him, after they ask him for signs, here was his response,


"But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas". (Mathew 12:39)


A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed. (Mathew 16:4)

LoJ:

Of course. The choice is yours and I am not blaming you. I was responding to a post of yours that sounded like a complain.

Sure maybe it is a complain, I see it more as a fear more from ignorance.

The initiation thing makes it a bit occultic and the picture of occultism in my head is scary. Let me blame the media and societal belief for that.

Most of my knowledge is from books and listening to words of wise ones. Even when they ain't sufficient, the pieces helps alot. When i grow pass my fear, I may decide join these circle one day.

gensteejay:

Do you have any specific reason for saying this?

He makes up those stuff he write. They are all from his head. Probably on the path of creating a new spiritual society.

My opinion though

budaatum:

This is true. When one is sceptical about something, one has no faith nor "confidence and trust" in that thing. That's why I am not sceptical about things I have faith and "confidence and trust" in. But I think you might be applying your scepticism at the wrong time.

I, do not go about being sceptical about things that I have checked etc and know. Like most people, when rain is falling on my head and I look up and see rain falling and I am wet and I am cold, I do not stupidly stand there being sceptical about the rain that is falling on my head making me feel wet and cold, because I would have finished applying my scepticism and now know and have faith and "confidence and trust" that I am wet and I am cold as a result of the rain that is falling on my head.

I start off being sceptical about things, see. That scepticism motivates me to diligently check, research, explore, question, experiment etc, those things, and after checking, researching, exploring, questioning, experimenting etcing those things, I now have information and data and knowledge about those things that I can base my faith and "confidence and trust" in on, or not, if that be the case.

You can see religion is not the bedrock of enlightenment nor science per se, it's scepticism.

gensteejay:

No, I didn't. I just didn't find any concrete evidence to change my stance that skepticism is not a religion.

You "not finding", and "it not being there", are obviously not exactly the same thing.

gensteejay:
All these questions will complicate things. If skepticism is a religion, then just about anything can be termed religion as well.

Questions never complicate anything! If anything might complicate, it is answers, and those who find answers complicated should go find something uncomplicated to do or ask more questions so they uncomplicate and understand, if that is their desire. That's how one acquires knowledge after all.

On that note, why say, "If skepticism is a religion"? I never said "skepticism is a religion", so why do you keep saying "if", and then argue against your own "if" being a religion? I seriously can not say I understand why you'd do that

gensteejay:
I could say Chelsea (as a fan of the club) is my religion. Or Physics or my work is my religion. People say these things. That doesn't make sports, science, etc. a religion.

Yes, you could say "Chelsea is your own religion", and bow down and worship Chelsea when you want to or however you wish to, but explain to me please how or why, I get to argue with you that Chelsea is not your religion, if perchance you say it is?

Is it buda's place to be telling you whether you should worship Chelsea or not? Or am I disagreeing that the "Chelsea that is your religion", is not your religion; or that you can't or don't or shouldn't worship Chelsea however you might want to worship your Chelsea religion? Is buda the one paying for your Chelsea jersey or buying your ticket to Stamford Bridge? Who, gensteejay, told you that buda is the god who decides for you, a grown up person with a reasonable sound mind, whether Chelsea can or cannot be your religion?

I'll very strongly advise you to strongly inform buda to go fuq budaself, personally, if buda ever attempts to assume to be telling you whether Chelsea is your religion or not! I mean, who da fuq jumped up and made buda, or whoever, some god over gensteejay!!

gensteejay:
Instead of saying skepticism, atheism, science, etc. is a religion; IMO, I feel it is better to state that some people approach a field like science, for instance, as a religion. The 2 positions are quite different.

State whatever you like please or "feel better to state". I myself can only state for myself. And if someone decides that "skepticism, atheism, science, Chelsea etc" is their religion, its really got nothing to do with me since they have in no way put a rope around my neck and forced me to worship their skeptic, atheist, science, Chelsea, etc gods with them, or practise their religion with them against my own desires and wishes.

And on a humorous note, and so you don't think I'm offended. Millwall is my own football religion. I see the Den from my window so can easily 'bow down' and 'worship' it whenever I like and from the warm comfort of my living room. And before you start making fun of my choice of football religion, note that, "No one likes us", and we don't give a flying fuq from hell, because "we are Millwall, from the Den"!

No worshipping my football religion with me now, gensteejay, lol.

tintingz:


You can see religion is not the bedrock of enlightenment nor science per se, it's scepticism.

No! I cannot see anything of the sort. Nor can I see where "religion" is a "bedrock", mind. But then, I never made the claim that religion was a bedrock of anything actually. Even though, religion was how very early primitives did "science" in their primitive day and which has evolved into science today through the application of skepticism, which is why we are more enlightened than early primitives who were limited to what the gods allegedly told them.

FOLYKAZE:


He makes up those stuff he write.

I doubt that. But if it's true, he must be a genius or spiritually gifted.

FOLYKAZE:

Probably on the path of creating a new spiritual society.

I feel there are lots of truths in the book he is compiling.

And it's very plausible that a new religion will be designed, based on his teachings. What is unclear is whether he would develop the religion personally or others will hijack the history and create a religion out of it.

In any case, there are already too many religions in today's world, and they always create trouble, violence, and disrupt world peace.

The risks far outweigh the benefits.

tintingz:
Do you ever doubt if your God exist?

Don't you know my atheist credentials, tintingz? I was probably an atheist longer than you breathed oxygen, not only doubting that God existed, but knowing categorically that gods are figments of the imaginations that people make up in their own heads!

No, I don't doubt God exists anymore because I can look into my head and check if God is in my mind.

tintingz:
I don't believe in any God.

Neither do I! I'm not the stupid sort who refuses to check if the wet and cold I feel is not rain falling on my head making me feel wet and cold! I went up the mountain with Moses, Aaron, the 70 and co, and checked for myself so now I don't believe God exists because I saw what I saw up the mountain and now I know and understand.

tintingz:
Then you don't have faith in your God, not a religious person. And oh, you should also be sceptical on the questions you're to ask your God.

I "don't have faith" in the God that is in my mind? How can that possibly be tintingz?

Is it that in your opinion, I should go up the mountain with Moses, Aaron, the 70, etc, to check if God is there and then after seeing what I saw, I should then come back down and be doubting what I saw at the top of the mountain, because I am being sceptical despite having checked and found the evidence?!

Is that not the same as rain is pissing down on my head and I am wet and cold but claiming to myself that it is a nice sunny day and I'm having a great time? Am I blind and did not see that I am cold and wet and rain is pissing on my head or what?!

Abeg don't make me vent anger on your head tintingz, for asking me to be stupid!

tintingz:
You are like the ancient Greek sceptists that question their Gods.

Bravo! Finally, he sees, somewhat that I am in no way unique! Lol.

Yes, you are correct. "I do not live by bread alone but on every Word that God wrote and spoke and that one can get one's hands on or one will be malnourished!"

tintingz:
Have you not heard of apostle Thomas whom the word doubting Thomas is used after him?

Yes, I have heard of Didymos Judas Thomas. And he was not cursed! The wiki you linked shows the immense work he went on to accomplish and the Gospel in his name is a very amazingly important book as you can see from just the first three verses.

These are the secret sayings which the living Jesus spoke and which Didymos Judas Thomas wrote down.

1) And He said, "Whoever finds the interpretation of these sayings will not experience death."

2) Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."

3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the Kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you..When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

But if you insist from the above that Thomas was cursed, then, God, curse me now like you cursed Thomas! Please!

tintingz:
Here's Jesus cursing the Jews for doubting him, after they ask him for signs, here was his response,

"But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas". (Mathew 12:39)

A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed. (Mathew 16:4)

He 'cursed' the scribes and Pharisees actually, Jews, no doubt, but only some of them who, despite all the signs he had already openly done and which they had seen, refused to acknowledge what they had seen and asked for more signs as if one more sign would make any difference to them. Besides, these brood of vipers earned their living telling people to 'believe' the stories in the old Testament by giving stones that there hearts were full of instead of the life affirming bread, and now Jesus is right in front of their eyes fulfilling those same stories that they preach and earn a living from and they are asking for signs?!

They must be like the stupid people who are wet and cold because rain is pissing down on their heads and they are claiming that it is a nice sunny day and they are having a great time after checking that it is indeed rain that is falling on their head and making them wet and cold, and they are even deceiving other people who are wet and cold because rain is pissing down on their head, that it is a nice sunny day and they are having a great time! Do tell, were they not even already cursed by their own duplicity and deceit?

They are lucky if Jesus cursed them! He should have turned them into pillars of salt or something. But "Gentle Jesus meek and mild", as they say, and ever so wise, just told them to do some work and travel to Nineveh if they wanted to see signs.

I bet you they didn't even bother!

gensteejay:


I doubt that. But if it's true, he must be a genius or spiritually gifted.


I feel there are lots of truths in the book he is compiling.

What he is doing is nothing dfferent from what Mohammad (saw), Josehp Smith, Paul Twitchell, and many others did.

No doubt, there are lot of trust in his thought.

gensteejay:
And it's very plausible that a new religion will be designed, based on his teachings. What is unclear is he would develop the religion personally or others will hijack the history and create a religion out of it.

In any case, there are already too many religions in today's world, and they always create trouble, violence, and disrupt world peace.

The risks far outweigh the benefits.

I once met a doctor who claimed the food we eat kills us. Even when food is beneficiary to the body, it kills the same body at another view. Should we scrap food because of this?

Yoruba people would say, water that serves as abode of fishes ends up boiling it. That is one of those mysteries of good/evil.

gensteejay:

And it's very plausible that a new religion will be designed, based on his teachings.

Philosophy. Way of thinking. Way of seeing things. Understanding etc, instead.

FOLYKAZE:

I once met a doctor who claimed the food we eat kills us. Even when food is beneficiary to the body, it kills the same body at another view. Should we scrap food because of this?

Yoruba people would say, water that serves as abode of fishes ends up boiling it. That is one of those mysteries of good/evil.

Interesting argument.

Personally, religions, especially Abrahamic ones, create more problems than solutions. Though that doesn't mean I would prefer a world without religion.

A world without religion is simply not realistic. So I would prefer not to answer OP's question.

However, I am averse to development of a new religion. That's simply creating more problems. There are already hundreds of religions in the world if not more; I don't see what a new one will offer, which is not in the existing ones.

budaatum:

Philosophy. Way of thinking. Way of seeing things. Understanding etc, instead.

You maybe right.

But you may also be wrong. Otem calls the history book he's compiling the Doctrine of the UFOS. That sounds like a religious book considering the use of the word, doctrine.

gensteejay:

You maybe right.

But you may also be wrong. Otem calls the history book he's compiling the Doctrine of the UFOS. That sounds like a religious book considering the use of the word, doctrine.

And what, would you say, is the doctrine in the Doctrine of the UFOS?

budaatum:

And what, would you say, is the doctrine in the Doctrine of the UFOS?

I wouldn't know. But it's a great compilation of histories.

Time will tell.

FOLYKAZE:


It is very important to talk about those words and understand the terminologies before diving into any discussion. Without that, we go round in an endless circle as we have seen in many cases in the past.

It also makes me wonder what atheism is focused on. Is it the existence of God? God in what sense, what concept, what understanding?

Is their understanding limited to Abrahamic religion or encompasses all non theistic and philosophical religion like Jainism.

Do atheists view of God limited to theistic concept of God or goes beyond/into pantheism, deism, ignotheism, and other concepts?

How does it view God in the sense of African spirituality?

Too many problems




Ifa is a body of knowledge, wisdom and understanding of the universe. It holds the secrets, hidden knowledge about the world, nature and society, people and person.

If that is what gives you pause then it is easily resolved. We hold that no god/gods have been sufficiently demonstrated to exist. In the case of deistic gods which are said to not interact with the universe, there is no further discussion to be had. Every other postulated god will need to meet it's own burden of proof for its existence.