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Questions For Budaatum: How Can You Follow Jesus Without Believing In Him? - Religion (3) - Nairaland

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Re: Questions For Budaatum: How Can You Follow Jesus Without Believing In Him? by budaatum: 8:53pm On May 11
Shepherd00:

No sir, it's not a semantic issue but context.

If one must seek proof before believing in Jesus and what He teaches, then how can one proof Jesus' claims that He came from Heaven?


The Bible says Jehovah is God, and He is in heaven. what proof can one can before believing that Jehovah is indeed in heaven?

There's nothing like blind faith sir. Look around you and tell me if God is not speaking to you through nature.
I've said this so many times but it seems to just go over your head, I wonder why! You do not need to seek proof before you believe. In fact, the fact that you have not sought proof is the reason that you can believe or not, if you knew you would know and not just believe. There is afterall a level of confidence you'd have if you were certain a thing is true because you had checked for yourself and its likely more than what you'd have if you never bothered. Just that some choose to believe and some don't believe. But if you are the sort that needs evidence before you can accept a thing is true then you will “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened", even the mystery of "Jehovah is God, and He is in heaven" if that is what you need to know.

Do note that is not to say everybody must seek or not believe. Some people can't seek or just don't seek and are blessed says the word, just that not using your talents and abilities, if God gave you any, is like worshipping God with a tithe in my opinion, and not giving it all to the poor and following Christ.
Re: Questions For Budaatum: How Can You Follow Jesus Without Believing In Him? by budaatum: 9:18pm On May 11
Shepherd00:

Why?
Because you might want to check for yourself if it is true or not.

Shepherd00:

This is a very poor example to use to drive home this point. How do you test Jesus by being slapped?
You could be testing if what Jesus says about being slapped is true.

Shepherd00:
Let use giving. The Holy Spirit says here that; There is that scattereth, and yet increaseth; and there is that withholdeth more than is meet, but it tendeth to poverty. Proverbs 11:24.
And, Give and it shall be given to you...
How do you know that what Jesus says is true? You know quite well that to have more, you save and accumulate, but Jesus is saying spread out. give out, and you shall increase, how can you test Him without believing that it will happen if you do it?
To have more what, Shepherd, earthly possessions or wealth that moths cannot eat?

Once you have that which Jesus said "spread out, give out and you will increase", you may chose to test by not withholding and by scattering to see if you increase. If you increase then you know its true.

Shepherd00:
So you call yourself smart by reading a book written how many thousand years ago by people long dead, you don't believe what they wrote in that book to be true, but you checked and tested their claims then you knew their claims are true. Wait!!! I am the one being stupid here or you?
Never said I was smart because I read a book Shepherd, but I did "read a book written how many thousand years ago by people long dead" and, "don't believe what they wrote in that book to be true" not all of it, at least, and not literally true, but "checked and tested their claims", then "knew their claims are true", barring the things that are propaganda, of course, or that are not 'true'.

Shepherd00:
Give me an example of an account you read in the Bible that you didn't believe, but tested and saw with your eyes to be true.
My favorite. I don't believe it and I haven't figured out the mystery of it yet either. It's one I'm still constantly asking God about. And it is 'true'.

Shepherd00:
Why did you quote this scripture which Jesus talks about us believing without seeing?
I quoted it because it states what I'm saying clearly.
Re: Questions For Budaatum: How Can You Follow Jesus Without Believing In Him? by Shepherd00: 9:20pm On May 11
budaatum:

I've said this so many times but it seems to just go over your head, I wonder why! You do not need to seek proof before you believe. In fact, the fact that you have not sought proof is the reason that you can believe or not, if you knew you would know and not just believe. , and it will be opened to you.

And I have asked you so many times to show me the evidence you saw that gave you the confidence that proofed to you that Jesus is God and is right now in Heaven. How do you know He is coming back to earth for real?

Why haven't you been answering my questions? They are flying over your head because you know you'd be trapped if you try to answer them.

U are saying that Thomas was right in seeking to see and touch the Master before believing and Jesus is wrong by saying we should believe and Trust that what He says is true?

budaatum:

There is afterall a level of confidence you'd have if you were certain a thing is true because you had checked for yourself and its likely more than what you'd have if you never bothered.
Everything I say flies over your head or you pretend not to see. Moses shd have checked (analyzed) the possibility of the Red Sea parting before striking it with the Rock or how Water could have gush out of the Rock before striking it abi?

budaatum:

Just that some choose to believe and some don't believe. But if you are the sort that needs evidence before you can accept a thing is true then you will “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock
And how can you work with Jesus and not believe Him? Is there one single person who did this?

budaatum:

For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened", even the mystery of "Jehovah is God, and He is in heaven" if that is what you need to know.
And asking, seeking and knocking in disbelief delivers the answers right?

Buda answer my questions and stop meandering, it makes you dishonest.

budaatum:

Do note that is not to say everybody must seek or not believe. Some people can't seek or just don't seek and are blessed says the word, just that not using your talents and abilities, if God gave you any, is like worshipping God with a tithe in my opinion, and not giving it all to the poor and following Christ.
You like to ramble incoherently Buda. Maybe you think that makes you sound smart, but it doesn't.

Where did the Word say that some people may seek or not seek yet be Blessed?

Pls tell me who and who followed Jesus in the Bible but didn't believe Him but just knew that what He said was true.
Re: Questions For Budaatum: How Can You Follow Jesus Without Believing In Him? by budaatum: 9:34pm On May 11
Shepherd00:

And I have asked you so many times to show me the evidence you saw that gave you the confidence that proofed to you that Jesus is God and is right now in Heaven.
You yourself do not seek but you want buda who seeks to seek for you? You are asking buda to show you the evidence that God used to convince buda?

Na wa for you o! Now you want to know. Don't you want to just believe anymore? I'm certain that if you too seek by yourself and ask in God's name God will show you too the things of God's Kingdom Shepherd.

1 Like

Re: Questions For Budaatum: How Can You Follow Jesus Without Believing In Him? by budaatum: 9:42pm On May 11
Shepherd00:

Buda answer my questions and stop meandering, it makes you dishonest.
Why? Why should I go and seek, find and share it with you? Why do you think you deserve a portion of the fruits of my labours Shepherd? Do you understand any of the answers you have received? Have you done anything to enable you to understand? Why do you think what you think matters to me?

You really are very funny! Lol!
Re: Questions For Budaatum: How Can You Follow Jesus Without Believing In Him? by Shepherd00: 9:53pm On May 11
budaatum:

Because you might want to check for yourself if it is true or not.
It's obvious you didn't understand my 'Why' question. My question is 'Why are you acting on a command you don't believe in?'. We Christians believe in the covenant. This covenant has requirements and dictates that must be kept and followed. We are told that when we do this, we shall get that, we believe then do. But, you don't believe, so what is the essence of you acting on the covenant? This is my 'Why'.

budaatum:

You could be testing if what Jesus says about being slapped is true.
I hope you know that Jesus was teaching self control and humility there and you using it here is outside context?
budaatum:

To have more what, Shepherd, earthly possessions or wealth that moths cannot eat?
Context, context context Buda. You keep doing this. You talked about testing Jesus' teaching to know that they are true, and I said, let's use giving to test your hypothesis. Did I say one shd be greedy and grab more than necessary?

Jesus said give and shall be given back to you, and I say why not give out your money or goods without first believing that it will come back if you and see if you can do it?

budaatum:

lOnce you have that which Jesus said "spread out, give out and you will increase", you may chose to test by not withholding and by scattering to see if you increase. If you increase then you know its true.
Stop meandering with words, it makes you seem cunning.

Everyone has what Jesus says to give. And it's not about you choosing whether or not to give out, my point is about you talking abt Testing Jesus to know if He is true. I am saying without believing in Jesus and His Words, test him by doing what said (Which by the way you don't believe in) by giving out your money all of it, to the needy and watch to see if it's true that it will come back.

How do you put what you don't believe in to test to see if it's true? This is stupid really.

budaatum:

Never said I was smart because I read a book Shepherd, but I did "read a book written how many thousand years ago by people long dead" and, "don't believe what they wrote in that book to be true" not all of it, at least, and not literally true, but "checked and tested their claims", then "knew their claims are true", barring the things that are propaganda, of course, or that are not 'true'.
Again this is stupid. You don't believe what is written in a book to be true, but you checked/tested their claims (Which you don't believe) if they are true and have have found them to be true?
Abeg, shift make I get space faint.

I believe you don't believe that Moses parted the Red Sea with his staff? Pls how did you test that it indeed happened for you to be convinced it did?
budaatum:

My favorite. I don't believe it and I haven't figured out the mystery of it yet either. It's one I'm still constantly asking God about. And it is 'true'.
Pls can you just past out the Scripture you intend to use? I hardly get what you typed here. U pick and choose what to know (because you don't believe) in the Bible, that's great. And, what is true? What you don't believe?

budaatum:

I quoted it because it states what I'm saying clearly.
What did you quote? I didn't see any scripture.
Re: Questions For Budaatum: How Can You Follow Jesus Without Believing In Him? by budaatum: 10:11pm On May 11
Shepherd00:

It's obvious you didn't understand my 'Why' question. My question is 'Why are you acting on a command you don't believe in?
Because I'm curious about it. I want to know if it produces the result they say it does. That's what learning is about! Don't you do it? Don't you learn by questioning? Do you just believe?

Shepherd00:

I believe you don't believe that Moses parted the Red Sea with his staff? Pls how did you test that it indeed happened for you to be convinced it did?
The Bible is a very big book so you cannot expect me to have tested everything in the Bible. Besides, some things are of a greater relevance than some others, one must surely prioritise. Read hear about separating wheat. A priority I know.
Re: Questions For Budaatum: How Can You Follow Jesus Without Believing In Him? by Shepherd00: 10:12pm On May 11
budaatum:

Why? Why should I go and seek, find and share it with you? Why do you think you deserve a portion of the fruits of my labours Shepherd?
Buda, I'm not in the least interested in the fruit of your labour. Why shd I be? You've got nothing that I need or cannot have.
You made a claim, and say back it up, but here you are scream fruits. WTH?
budaatum:

Do you understand any of the answers you have received?
You haven't given any answers Buda. All you"ve been doing is play game of words, which you fail woefully, because you are not dealing with a kid.

How do you follow Jesus without believing in Him and His Words, you talk about testing him. How do you even know he exists without believing what the Bible says about him. And how do you test a Spirit? You said reading the Bible but not believing it. What kind of absurdity is that?

budaatum:

Have you done anything to enable you to understand? Why do you think what you think matters to me?
You really are very funny! Lol!
You are the one who need to understand that you need help. but pride won't let you see it. Budaatum, Jesus Himself, the One you claim you know and have tested to be true (even when you don't believe in Him and His Words), says that No one can walk or follow Him except they first believe that He is, and that He a rewarder of those who diligently seek him.

Jesus of Nazareth is a Spirit as far as this plane is concern for now. so to walk with him, you believe that what He says abt Himself in His Word is true. It is in following and obeying Him that He reveals Himself to you then you know Him. You can not know Him without Believing in Him.

Maybe the Jesus you talk about is the one Loj is talking about, the mystical Jesus.


Maybe I shd flood this thread with scriptures and let you disproof them.

Wait!!!!! you don't believe in them.
Re: Questions For Budaatum: How Can You Follow Jesus Without Believing In Him? by budaatum: 10:13pm On May 11
Shepherd00:

What did you quote? I didn't see any scripture.
Open your eyes and follow links. I am not feeding you!
Re: Questions For Budaatum: How Can You Follow Jesus Without Believing In Him? by Shepherd00: 10:32pm On May 11
budaatum:

You yourself do not seek but you want buda who seeks to seek for you? You are asking buda to show you the evidence that God used to convince buda?
Buda, you talk about testing, proofs and evidences that can convince one, and I say, show me.

Oh, Buda, I am a seeker. Much more than you know. that is why I'm able to catch you in your subtle lies here.

What do I care abt the evidence God used to convince you? If I asked you and you lie, how will I know? But, the Word of God is open and clear for everyone to.see, so pls point me to a Patriarch who followed God without believing in God.
How many times have I asked this? You run around playing hide and seek.
budaatum:

Na wa for you o! Now you want to know. Don't you want to just believe anymore? .
Who talked about Jesus believing? You are quick to accuse me of something you a master in, dishonesty. I didn't just believe what Jesus said blindly. Nature is here to.confirm what he taught. Human beings and their behaviours are hear to confirm the Bible. The Nations of the earth and its people are here too. So, how can I just believe? But, it began there. Believe was my first pedestal. I stood on it then I understand, my understanding led me to Knowledge.

And, in Christianity, we don't test our God, as that will count as Doubt and doubt is the opposite of faith. So, for you testing Jesus to see if what He said or is saying is true, Hmmmm. If you believe the Word, I'd asked where you got it from.

budaatum:

I'm certain that if you too seek by yourself and ask in God's name God will show you too the things of God's Kingdom Shepherd
And if I ask without believing, I shall receive okwaya?

Here is what the Lord said abt that ; 'Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
Mark 11:24

Buda, how do you ask and receive from a god you don't believe in?
Re: Questions For Budaatum: How Can You Follow Jesus Without Believing In Him? by Shepherd00: 10:41pm On May 11
budaatum:

Open your eyes and follow links. I am not feeding you!
As if you can feed. Abeg stop kidding your self Buda. I don't think I need an extra eye to see Bible passages you post.
Re: Questions For Budaatum: How Can You Follow Jesus Without Believing In Him? by Shepherd00: 11:05pm On May 11
The Bible is a very big book so you cannot expect me to have tested everything in the Bible. Besides, some things are of a greater relevance than some others, one must surely prioritise. Read hear about separating wheat. A priority I know.[/quote]
budaatum:

Because I'm curious about it. I want to know if it produces the result they say it does.
Wow. Man, I haven't come across your kind before. You want to experiment with Jesus? How do you experiment with a Spirit who you only access by Faith?

this is likened to what a certain John, a sorcerer did in Acts 8:18-20
And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.


You have an agenda. You want something from Jesus, but don't want him.

budaatum:

That's what learning is about! Don't you do it?
No, I don't experiment with Jesus. This is how people walk in error but expect Jesus to lower His standard and do their biddings, but when He doesn't (Which is always the case), they cry foul and say Jesus does not exists

You cannot subject God to a examination Buda. You have no idea who you are dealing with.

Even as a deeply Spiritual Obedient believer, you can hardly fully grasp the Essence of God, how then can a non believer who remains at the intellectual level grasp Him?

budaatum:

Don't you learn by questioning? Do you just believe
Oh, I question alot, but I am always referred back to the Word for answers and when I read I receive my answers and receive my peace.
Re: Questions For Budaatum: How Can You Follow Jesus Without Believing In Him? by Shepherd00: 11:15pm On May 11
Buda, will it be safe to say you are a Seeker, not a Christian?

As a Seeker, you study Christ the Christian God, Buddhism and their various Buddhas. Shinto, Taoism, Islam Paganism. You are a scholar right? because, scholars don't believe in Jesus but study Him just like they do other religions.

If your answer is yes, then I rest my case.
Re: Questions For Budaatum: How Can You Follow Jesus Without Believing In Him? by budaatum: 11:29pm On May 11
Shepherd00:



Buda, I'm not in the least interested in the fruit of your labour. Why shd I be? You've got nothing that I need or cannot have.
You made a claim, and say back it up, but here you are scream fruits. WTH?

You haven't given any answers Buda. All you"ve been doing is play game of words, which you fail woefully, because you are not dealing with a kid.

How do you follow Jesus without believing in Him and His Words, you talk about testing him. How do you even know he exists without believing what the Bible says about him. And how do you test a Spirit? You said reading the Bible but not believing it. What kind of absurdity is that?


You are the one who need to understand that you need help. but pride won't let you see it. Budaatum, Jesus Himself, the One you claim you know and have tested to be true (even when you don't believe in Him and His Words), says that No one can walk or follow Him except they first believe that He is, and that He a rewarder of those who diligently seek him.

Jesus of Nazareth is a Spirit as far as this plane is concern for now. so to walk with him, you believe that what He says abt Himself in His Word is true. It is in following and obeying Him that He reveals Himself to you then you know Him. You can not know Him without Believing in Him.

Maybe the Jesus you talk about is the one Loj is talking about, the mystical Jesus.


Maybe I shd flood this thread with scriptures and let you disproof them.

Wait!!!!! you don't believe in them.
You appear to have a fundamental misunderstanding of my position Shepherd, let me try to assist you. I spent years wondering about God when I came in contact with Christians. How people believed what they did fascinated me. It's why I first read the Bible, rationally I might add, having by then received years of rational education both at home and at school where everything was Who What When Where Why How, developing a critical mind in us with no religion whatsoever except "God Save the Queen"! Then climate change. 6years 5 months plunk in the middle of a couple of years post Biafra Nigeria which I'd had the misfortune of living through on bbc who showed us everyday in all our glory. Everyone believed in God. Everyone believed in spirits. Everyone prayed. I still remember Rashidi in his egun outfit claiming he was a spirit from the gods I should give him all my money or he would whip me. Rashidi who did not know you got 2½ kobo change if you bought half a loaf of bread is claiming to be a god! The 'Rashidi' I had seen dying in their millions on bbc! I didn't mind their believing, most were just absurd to me and weren't what I could believe myself not with my wwwwwh and especially where my resources were concerned. I'd rather spend my money on a book than give it to Rashidi in his egun outfit even if he was a god. But curious I still was. Besides, the only way to get out the house on a Sunday was to go to church or you'd be cooped up indoors! So church it was. And was it fascinating!

I remember a Church I went to. They'd send vans to pick up kids 2-300 in the neighbourhoods so I went. Prayer was "pray for your mother, pray for your father", and all these children will be rolling on the floor balling their eyes out praying their mother and father don't go to hell. There was this group of six of us all going home one Sunday when they stopped at a sweet sellers. They had rolled on the floor and kept their tithes for sweets while I had dropped mine in the bowl. I still laugh at their cunning. The bowl woman had not moved along and stared at me until I put my hands in my pocket and put my money in the bowl. It fascinated me. That woman got my money with a stare that Rashidi couldn't get with a whip.

Years of study followed Shepherd, of books, life, experiences of myself and of other people, everything I could get my hands on and find the time for which helped me develop a critical mind as in, gave me the ability to discern the wheat from the chaff and allow me to amass the time to further my seeking.

Have you considered that there might be some work I might have done that you have not done, is my point. Or perhaps your work is different to mine or your path is different to mine? I mean, if God's mansion can have many rooms, might there not be more than one path? Personally. I just can't but wonder why beliefs are more important to you than you loving another. It's not a belief I can share!
Re: Questions For Budaatum: How Can You Follow Jesus Without Believing In Him? by budaatum: 11:37pm On May 11
Shepherd00:
Buda, will it be safe to say you are a Seeker, not a Christian?

As a Seeker, you study Christ the Christian God, Buddhism and their various Buddhas. Shinto, Taoism, Islam Paganism. You are a scholar right? because, scholars don't believe in Jesus but study Him just like they do other religions.

If your answer is yes, then I rest my case.

Yes Shepherd, and some. As in every "word that proceeds from God's mouth" that I can get my hands on because if I live by bread alone I will be malnourished is what Jesus taught me and as is confirmed many other religions.

And not only as a scholar, but also as a participant in the mystery of Christ's death upon a cross.
Re: Questions For Budaatum: How Can You Follow Jesus Without Believing In Him? by budaatum: 11:53pm On May 11
Shepherd00:

Wow. Man, I haven't come across your kind before. You want to experiment with Jesus?
Experience, would be a more accurate description Shepherd, "experience Jesus". I did not put Jesus in a test-tube!
Re: Questions For Budaatum: How Can You Follow Jesus Without Believing In Him? by budaatum: 12:03am On May 12
Shepherd00:

You have an agenda. You want something from Jesus, but don't want him.
You are a funny individual if you think a person can study Jesus and not have something from him whether one wants him or not! Is it up to one whether Jesus enters one's life or not? Did Saul have a choice in the matter? Is it not true that studying Jesus is like finding treasure in a field? Would one study him if one didn't want something from him? Did God self not say "Ask for whatever you want me to give you"? Or don't you even believe this not to talk of know it to be true?
Re: Questions For Budaatum: How Can You Follow Jesus Without Believing In Him? by Shepherd00: 9:42am On May 12
budaatum:

You are a funny individual if you think a person can study Jesus and not have something from him whether one wants him or not! Is it up to one whether Jesus enters one's life or not?
So are you funny to think you can know Jesus but not believe in Him.
Yes, someone who studies Jesus like someone researching Dinosaurs cannot get anything from Jesus except of the historical aspects of Him. Theological scolars are in this class.
budaatum:

Did Saul have a choice in the matter?
Saul never set out to study to know Jesus academically, he was out to obliterate any trace of Jesus. No one can know Jesus except He draws to them To Himself. 'No man can come to me except My Father Draws Him'.

No one has ever looked for Jesus and found Him, those who have tried ended up empty religious people, speaking big grammar, quoting scriptures out of context, falsifying the Word, having letters but no Life.

If you talk about the Kingdom's Principles, like tithing, divine healing, holy ghost baptism, the mystery of giving, transference of the Spirit by laying on of hands, the Believers authority over demons, (casting out of demons), the operations of these mysteries fly over their heads hence, they wave them off as fake or manipulate
budaatum:

Is it not true that studying Jesus is like finding treasure in a field? Would one study him if one didn't want something from him?
You mean like the Muslim study Him to make their people that He is just an ordinary prophet lesser than Muhammad? or like the scholars/theologians in their high lofty academic stratas get something from Him?
Like I said, all they can get from Him is earthly, nothing spiritual. And Jesus came here mainly to save man from sin and death (eternal), are they saved? do they have eternal Life in them?

No one gets eternal Life by studying Jesus like one studying the life of Aristotle or Shakespeare.

budaatum:

Did God self not say "Ask for whatever you want me to give you"? Or don't you even believe this not to talk of know it to be true?
Yes, He said that, but why didn't you attach the condition that goes with that promise? The Lord was talking to His Disciples who believe and Worship Him, not the general public

It is when you must have done His Will, not before.

There are gifts that are open to the general Human race, but there are some that are reserved for Sons in the family.

As an unbeliever, try asking for divine healing or lay your hand on the sick and see how it goes. Lay your hands on a demon possessed and see demons jump on you, that is if they dignify you with a reaction.
Re: Questions For Budaatum: How Can You Follow Jesus Without Believing In Him? by Shepherd00: 10:09am On May 12
budaatum:

Experience, would be a more accurate description Shepherd, "experience Jesus".
Buda, I think the word you are looking for is 'encounter'. Sorry no one encounters Jesus by studying Him academically. Besides, He calls His Disciples, no one calls Him into anything.

From Adam to me, He has been the one coming Us with His terms, you cannot go to Him. You couldn't find your way to Him, so how can you experience Him? Try it and you'd end up serving satan who impersonates Jesus.
budaatum:

I did not put Jesus in a test-tube!
Who said anything about a test-tube?

You said curiosity drives you to put his commandments to a test, to see if they work as people claim. And, I told you, you can't put Jesus to a test, you will be ignored or worst still fall into Satan's hands. Satan knows that Jesus won't answer you, because He doesn't go back on His Words, so satan will show up and act like Jesus. The the type that Loj talks abt.

Do you even believe there's an entity called Satan?
Re: Questions For Budaatum: How Can You Follow Jesus Without Believing In Him? by Shepherd00: 10:35am On May 12
budaatum:

Yes Shepherd, and some . As in every "word that proceeds from God's mouth" that I can get my hands on because if I live by bread alone I will be malnourished is what Jesus taught me and as is confirmed many other religions.
I see. So, you pick 'Not Believing and not Worshipped God' from Buddhism, and you pick 'Love your neighbor as you love yourself' from Christianity and mix them together. Here, right there, is 'The Grail Message'.
Pick from other religions and form your own. Hahahahahahaha.

I now understand why you meander with words hoping no one will notice the error. Cleaver, cleaver.

budaatum:

And not only as a scholar, but also as a participant in the mystery of Christ's death upon a cross.
Oil and water doesn't mix Buda, it's not possible. Anthropologists come to Nigeria to study Amadioha. And, by studying, based on what is written and by Igbo folklore they understand the operations on Amadioha, this can not link them with the Igbo ancestors who represent this god. They can't command fire, or make the god do anything just because they now know it.

To participate in the mystery of Christ's death on the Cross, you must believe in Him and Worship as God. You must believe and obey His Words.

Eternal Life must be your principal focus, and you must be determined to evangelize Christ to the dying World.

These does not happen by you literally or academically studying to know who Jesus was while He was on earth. Jesus is still healing the sick today, do you believe? He is still saving souls from death today, do you believe? He is still raising the dead today, miracles are still happening today, do you believe?
Jesus is God, and God is a Spirit.
Spiritual things or beings are Spiritually discerned, not academically deciphered.

You must present yourself a vessel for His use, because he still uses His own today, Speaking through them, acting through them in so many ways.

How does He communicate to you? I asked this before, but you dodged it. You can't be His disciple without hearing Him. Do you hear Him, how?
Re: Questions For Budaatum: How Can You Follow Jesus Without Believing In Him? by Shepherd00: 11:33am On May 12
budaatum:

You appear to have a fundamental misunderstanding of my position Shepherd, let me try to assist you. I spent years wondering about God when I came in contact with Christians. How people believed what they did fascinated me. It's why I first read the Bible, rationally I might add, having by then received years of rational education both at home and at school where everything was Who What When Where Why How, developing a critical mind in us with no religion whatsoever except "God Save the Queen"! Then climate change. 6years 5 months plunk in the middle of a couple of years post Biafra Nigeria which I'd had the misfortune of living through on bbc who showed us everyday in all our glory. Everyone believed in God. Everyone believed in spirits. Everyone prayed. I still remember Rashidi in his egun outfit claiming he was a spirit from the gods I should give him all my money or he would whip me. Rashidi who did not know you got 2½ kobo change if you bought half a loaf of bread is claiming to be a god! The 'Rashidi' I had seen dying in their millions on bbc! I didn't mind their believing, most were just absurd to me and weren't what I could believe myself not with my wwwwwh and especially where my resources were concerned. I'd rather spend my money on a book than give it to Rashidi in his egun outfit even if he was a god. But curious I still was. Besides, the only way to get out the house on a Sunday was to go to church or you'd be cooped up indoors! So church it was. And was it fascinating!

I remember a Church I went to. They'd send vans to pick up kids 2-300 in the neighbourhoods so I went. Prayer was "pray for your mother, pray for your father", and all these children will be rolling on the floor balling their eyes out praying their mother and father don't go to hell. There was this group of six of us all going home one Sunday when they stopped at a sweet sellers. They had rolled on the floor and kept their tithes for sweets while I had dropped mine in the bowl. I still laugh at their cunning. The bowl woman had not moved along and stared at me until I put my hands in my pocket and put my money in the bowl. It fascinated me. That woman got my money with a stare that Rashidi couldn't get with a whip.

Years of study followed Shepherd, of books, life, experiences of myself and of other people, everything I could get my hands on and find the time for which helped me develop a critical mind as in, gave me the ability to discern the wheat from the chaff and allow me to amass the time to further my seeking.

Have you considered that there might be some work I might have done that you have not done, is my point. Or perhaps your work is different to mine or your path is different to mine? I mean, if God's mansion can have many rooms, might there not be more than one path? Personally. I just can't but wonder why beliefs are more important to you than you loving another. It's not a belief I can share!
Buda, if you care to listen, everyone has a story. A journey. I have mind. I believe mine set a precedence that occasioned my firm belief in Jesus. At 10, I saw a dead Child raised back to life, she is still alive today. That got stuck in my mind. I have seen raw manifestation of God's power that boggles the mind, these kept me asking questions and from the Word, I see that it is Jesus and that He is still alive in people, even Me.

Buda, I am sorry am going to say this, pls don't take it wrongly. But you were raised in a family where Religion was a mere ceremony. It's not your fault you were a Child. Church going was something that must be done on Sunday. No expectations, No longing for an experience in those who looked up to.

In our formative ages, what we observe in our immediate families, environments and even the kind of churches we attend, stakes our foundations. If you grew up in a family that merely talked about God but did not take Him seriously, did not teach you to involve Him in your personal Life, hence, never saw any real manifestation of the power of God that kept you wondering, you'd grow up looking at God like Santa Claus who comes to you once every year.

I have read through your journey I never saw any personal soul encounter with Jesus Himself. I read you talking about people. You tried to See Jesus from other people's eyes Buda, and that is idol worship.

If you spend enough time reading the Bible when you came of age with the intention of seeking the Mind of God concerning what was bothering you at the time, you would've laughed at Rashidi.

You'd have prayed for the Misguided greed-laden politicians who seek to control other human beings against Gods original mandate for Man, hence force the weak to fight and kill each other in other for them to keep the territory for themselves.

If you'd read the Bible opening up your Spiritual ears to hear the voice of the Word of God, The Holy Spirit wld ve spoken to you and you'd ve understood why things on earth are now Topsy-Turvy.
But alas, you rationalized the scriptures and what you were left with was mere letters of the Word which killed you eventually.

God is not responsible for the evil and chaos in the world Buda, Man is, Greed, jealousy, clamour for control is.
There are two kinds of people on earth, those who say "Father, thy Will be done, and those to whom God says 'Okay then, have it your way'". And this world has rebelled so much so that, it seems God has said to it 'Okay then, have it your way', because he doesn't strife with any man. Choose Ye this day...

The danger is in apportioning blame to God for the misdeeds of others, and that is what so many atheists are doing now. Most are offended at God because He does not interfere, funnily they are at present still steep in disobedience, yet expects God to wipe away hunger when there's so much in the hands of the leaders who shd give out.

They expect God to remove sicknesses like HIV or Cancer from their lives, while men are still have sex with men and people with animals.
They celebrate sin and unrighteousness, they fight anyone who points them out. Some even go to the point of falsifying Scriptures to backup their evils,

They are still taking in toxic substances that causes Cancer, they do all manner of things that works against Nature, yet shake their punny fists at God. Pity, as though they can fight the weakest Angel in Heaven.
Re: Questions For Budaatum: How Can You Follow Jesus Without Believing In Him? by budaatum: 1:34pm On May 12
Shepherd00:

But you were raised in a family where Religion was a mere ceremony.
It's rather obvious I'm wasting my time here. If you bothered reading with your eyes open you'd have read it said religion was non-existent in my family while I was growing up Shepherd.

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Re: Questions For Budaatum: How Can You Follow Jesus Without Believing In Him? by budaatum: 1:36pm On May 12
Shepherd00:


How does He communicate to you? I asked this before, but you dodged it.

I'm not dodging Shepherd, just refusing to tell you. If you want God to communicate with you, ask God!

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Re: Questions For Budaatum: How Can You Follow Jesus Without Believing In Him? by Shepherd00: 2:31pm On May 12
budaatum:

I'm not dodging Shepherd, just refusing to tell you. If you want God to communicate with you, ask God!
I see.

God speaks to me already and I didn't ask to Him. He decides the medium to speak to His vessels.
Re: Questions For Budaatum: How Can You Follow Jesus Without Believing In Him? by Shepherd00: 2:32pm On May 12
budaatum:

It's rather obvious I'm wasting my time here. If you bothered reading with your eyes open you'd have read it said religion was non-existent in my family while I was growing up Shepherd.
But you went to Church on Sundays with Children who will use their tithes to buy sweets.
Re: Questions For Budaatum: How Can You Follow Jesus Without Believing In Him? by budaatum: 3:42pm On May 12
Shepherd00:

But you went to Church on Sundays with Children who will use their tithes to buy sweets.
Come on man! Weekend was long. Friday evening, all day Saturday - cleaning, our one religion - then Sunday in-doors all day with my squabbling siblings! Waiting for Monday and school!

Those tithe to buy sweet children went to this one church. Besides, I stopped going to that church because I was not prepared to roll on the floor crying to God not to burn my parents in hell just so I can spend my tithe money on sweets because, first, I did not believe my parents were so bad that God would burn them in hell; second, I did not believe paying tithes much less pulling a scam of rolling on the floor and not paying the tithe was proper behaviour - I had not been brought up to behave that way; and third, I had better things to spend my money on!

We're talking 7 to 9 years old. I went to church alone. I went to many churches in the neighbourhood. It was the only way I could get out the house on Sundays, and the going out widened my horizon so I could see further. Then I started coming home from school by myself, not getting the bus so I could spend my money on books. You'd be amazed the treasure you'd find on Lagos streets. I began reading the Bible at 9. The first few books were easy all the way up to Chronicles but it still probably took about a year as I interspersed my reading with books too. The rest took longer as I found I had to wait for my ability to understand what I read to develop before I read it again. Some chapters I read 3 times so I didn't finish till very close to my 13th birthday. And on the day I finished, I knew I did not believe a single word of it! It was all a myth. Not even history. But it was true that I must love my neighbour though, and not steal or covet my neighbours goods, and so on. Yet there were "believers" pulling a tithe scam by rolling on the floor. Nigeria seemed to be so full of "believers" to my teenage eyes. Everywhere one looked, believers believed with hardly one single doer of the will in sight. Then I began finding doers as I got older and was taught the art of not letting your left hand see what the right hand does. And now I have evolved to putting that lamp in the window and calling out so that it is seen.

You say I lead, Shepherd. I guess you seen followings.

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Re: Questions For Budaatum: How Can You Follow Jesus Without Believing In Him? by budaatum: 3:45pm On May 12
Shepherd00:

He decides the medium to speak to His vessels.
Then I wonder what your argument is! Is it that buda is not God's "vessels", or that God hasn't decided?

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Re: Questions For Budaatum: How Can You Follow Jesus Without Believing In Him? by budaatum: 4:15pm On May 12
Shepherd00:

Buda, if you care to listen, everyone has a story. A journey. I have mind. I believe mine set a precedence that occasioned my firm belief in Jesus. At 10, I saw a dead Child raised back to life, she is still alive today. That got stuck in my mind. I have seen raw manifestation of God's power that boggles the mind, these kept me asking questions and from the Word, I see that it is Jesus and that He is still alive in people, even Me.

Buda, I am sorry am going to say this, pls don't take it wrongly. But you were raised in a family where Religion was a mere ceremony. It's not your fault you were a Child. Church going was something that must be done on Sunday. No expectations, No longing for an experience in those who looked up to.

In our formative ages, what we observe in our immediate families, environments and even the kind of churches we attend, stakes our foundations. If you grew up in a family that merely talked about God but did not take Him seriously, did not teach you to involve Him in your personal Life, hence, never saw any real manifestation of the power of God that kept you wondering, you'd grow up looking at God like Santa Claus who comes to you once every year.

I have read through your journey I never saw any personal soul encounter with Jesus Himself. I read you talking about people. You tried to See Jesus from other people's eyes Buda, and that is idol worship.

If you spend enough time reading the Bible when you came of age with the intention of seeking the Mind of God concerning what was bothering you at the time, you would've laughed at Rashidi.

You'd have prayed for the Misguided greed-laden politicians who seek to control other human beings against Gods original mandate for Man, hence force the weak to fight and kill each other in other for them to keep the territory for themselves.

If you'd read the Bible opening up your Spiritual ears to hear the voice of the Word of God, The Holy Spirit wld ve spoken to you and you'd ve understood why things on earth are now Topsy-Turvy.
But alas, you rationalized the scriptures and what you were left with was mere letters of the Word which killed you eventually.

God is not responsible for the evil and chaos in the world Buda, Man is, Greed, jealousy, clamour for control is.
There are two kinds of people on earth, those who say "Father, thy Will be done, and those to whom God says 'Okay then, have it your way'". And this world has rebelled so much so that, it seems God has said to it 'Okay then, have it your way', because he doesn't strife with any man. Choose Ye this day...

The danger is in apportioning blame to God for the misdeeds of others, and that is what so many atheists are doing now. Most are offended at God because He does not interfere, funnily they are at present still steep in disobedience, yet expects God to wipe away hunger when there's so much in the hands of the leaders who shd give out.

They expect God to remove sicknesses like HIV or Cancer from their lives, while men are still have sex with men and people with animals.
They celebrate sin and unrighteousness, they fight anyone who points them out. Some even go to the point of falsifying Scriptures to backup their evils,

They are still taking in toxic substances that causes Cancer, they do all manner of things that works against Nature, yet shake their punny fists at God. Pity, as though they can fight the weakest Angel in Heaven.



I agree that I was a product of my environment Shepherd, that's why I'm bothering to tell you about my wwwwwh education so that perhaps you might understand and have compassion, but you refuse to look through the love glasses that the Lord God gave you.

I did not blame God for the misfortunes in the world. I was an atheist. There was no God to blame! But even then I believed that if they read the Bible they merely claimed to believe in, and understood it, and lived it, the world, Nigeria at the time, would have like a miracle turned to heaven! But here we are, so many decades later and it burns more that it ever did.

The difference now is that I am reading it again with the Jesusglasses the Lord God gave me. You should rejoice! Aleluya amen.

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Re: Questions For Budaatum: How Can You Follow Jesus Without Believing In Him? by Shepherd00: 4:21pm On May 12
budaatum:

Then I wonder what your argument is! Is it that buda is not God's "vessels", or that God hasn't decided?
Buda, he that is called of God, speaks the Word of God.

You don't tell people not to believe and Worship God. That is not the Gospel of Christ.
Re: Questions For Budaatum: How Can You Follow Jesus Without Believing In Him? by Shepherd00: 4:56pm On May 12
budaatum:

Come on man! Weekend was long. Friday evening, all day Saturday - cleaning, our one religion - then Sunday in-doors all day with my squabbling siblings! Waiting for Monday and school!
You didn't TV? This is why I said it's not your fault you came up saying there was no God.

budaatum:

Those tithe to buy sweet children went to this one church. Besides, I stopped going to that church because I was not prepared to roll on the floor crying to God not to burn my parents in hell just so I can spend my tithe money on sweets because, first, I did not believe my parents were so bad that God would burn them in hell; second, I did not believe paying tithes much less pulling a scam of rolling on the floor and not paying the tithe was proper behaviour - I had not been brought up to behave that way; and third, I had better things to spend my money on!
Again, I said 'even the church we attend in our formative years stakes our foundation's. I believe a Church and preach Love of Christ to Man and point men to Christ make allow us choose Christ in Love not out of fear of hellfire. But, that is not to say if one dies in sin he will escape Gods prison who are spiritual criminals.

Your parents may not be worst sinners but if they don't have the eternal life which only Christ gives, If they died, the gates of heaven shall not be opened to them whether.
Except a man be born again he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
Quoting scriptures for you seems useless because you don't believe them.

budaatum:

We're talking 7 to 9 years old. I went to church alone. I went to many churches in the neighbourhood. It was the only way I could get out the house on Sundays, and the going out widened my horizon so I could see further. Then I started coming home from school by myself, not getting the bus so I could spend my money on books. You'd be amazed the treasure you'd find on Lagos streets. I began reading the Bible at 9. The first few books were easy all the way up to Chronicles but it still probably took about a year as I interspersed my reading with books too. The rest took longer as I found I had to wait for my ability to understand what I read to develop before I read it again. Some chapters I read 3 times so I didn't finish till very close to my 13th birthday. And on the day I finished, I knew I did not believe a single word of it! It was all a myth. Not even history.
So, all the noise you've been making here as an atheists about reading the Bible was when you a pre-teen? Tell me Buda sincerely, was your mind in what you were reading or you were counting letters while thinking of something else?

If you read it like anyone could read 'Eze Goes to School', you won't understand anything (because the Bible is not a literally text). You turned against God and declared the Bible a myth lol.


Buda, I bought my first Bible at 25. But I had encountered Christ earlier. I read a borrowed Bible but didn't understand it, because my mind was always somewhere else when I read, until I started praying for focus and concentration everytime I wanted to study, then I saw myself putting my mind to what I read, then understanding started coming.

budaatum:

But it was true that I must love my neighbour though, and not steal or covet my neighbours goods, and so on. Yet there were "believers" pulling a tithe scam by rolling on the floor. Nigeria seemed to be so full of "believers" to my teenage eyes. Everywhere one looked, believers believed with hardly one single doer of the will in sight. Then I began finding doers as I got older and was taught the art of not letting your left hand see what the right hand does. And now I have evolved to putting that lamp in the window and calling out so that it is seen.
Ur focus is too much on what others are doing. Jesus never called anyone to observe others of His Children. He look into me, for I am the Author and the Finisher. Come u to me, He said. Not check what others are doing.
And, Buda, if you don't steal, don't kill, don't lie and the rest, yet you are not born again(Regenerated in your spirit), your good deeds will not open the gates of heaven for you.

Again. believers who 'do' for others to see that they are doing, are contravening the instructions of Jesus. 'What your right does, let your left hand not See'. So be mindful of how you expect to see the deeds of others.

budaatum:

You say I lead, Shepherd. I guess you seen followings.
Whatever this means.
Re: Questions For Budaatum: How Can You Follow Jesus Without Believing In Him? by budaatum: 5:00pm On May 12
Shepherd00:

Buda, he that is called of God, speaks the Word of God.

You don't tell people not to believe and Worship God. That is not the Gospel of Christ.
You know what, I would not exactly take your word on what is the Gospel of Christ to be honest. Hopefully in time, other's will come share it with you,

I did not tell anybody not to believe Shepherd. I said, believe if you have not yet asked. But if you "Ask it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you and then will you know. God wants powerful people see. Not just sheep to be shepherded!

And I never told anyone not to worship God! To worship God is do my will, to love your neighbour and to do unto others as you will have them do unto you, to forgive them their trespasses so that your trespasses can be forgiven, to feed the poor and to be “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.” I specifically said that anyone who understands this will even beg God to permit them to worship God!

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Re: Questions For Budaatum: How Can You Follow Jesus Without Believing In Him? by budaatum: 5:13pm On May 12
Shepherd00:

Ur focus is too much on what others are doing.
What is the title of this thread again? Who started it? Who is focusing on what others are doing?

I don't focus on what others are doing Shepherd. In a funny odd way, I am selfish and way too busy focusing on whether I am receiving the gifts from God for myself that the speck in the eyes of others least concerns me until they start poking my eyes like you have on here. And even then, I'm glad for the opportunity to have a conversation, for I know my conversation is not with you alone, but also with thousands who will follow who would read this thread. I mean, look at what the Spirit of the Lord helped you drag out of me, and without interference! Or have you not noticed the sideliners watching on?

They will comment Shepherd. O they will, those whom it may concern. Meanwhile, I strongly suggest you get a mirror!

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