₦airaland Forum

TheNazarene:
To me ooo

I believe the sacrificing of his daughter was the price Jephtah paid dearly for his unbelief. He was well versed in the history of Israel, and I haven't seen where God asked for an offering from Israel to grant them victory over their enemies.

God never approved of a human sacrifice from the Book of Genesis to the Book of Revelation, He never accepted any.

Abraham's case was just so He could test his faith and it was God that specifically requested for it to know whom Abraham loves the most: God or Isaac.

And because God asked for a sacrifice, He made provision for a substitute. If it was God that inspired Jephtah's vow there would have been a substitute.

Normally, after a victory the Israelites sacrifice animals to God but out of a fear instilled 'shallow thinking' and fear of the army of the ammonites made Jephtah make a very very delicate and unspecified vow, lets look at the verse again:

Judges 11
30 And Jephtah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,

31 Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.

if you look at verse 30, you would see fear and unbelief in Jephtah's words.

Also in verse 31, he said

Then it shall be, that whatsoever...

that phrase signifies that, blindly, he most likely anticipated that at all at all it will be an animal that would greet him first. He did not put into consideration that a human might also be the first to greet him (maybe the chances were very low, I don't know)

Fear also made him not to stop at

shall surely be the Lord's,

he went further to say

and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.

inclining more to the his perspective of an animal greeting him.

But, the fact remains that a vow is a vow. Ecclesiastes 5:4-6

Jephtah made the sacrifice;

Judges 11:39 = And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel,

But it wasn't recorded anywhere that God did anything or affiliated with the sacrifice which shows that He did not approve of it at all.

Jephtah's daughter's death was Jephtah's loss as a result of fear and lack of communication with God. Come to think of it, Jephtah did not enquire of the Lord.

God did not grant Israel victory because of the vow. He called forth Israel and it is His duty to protect them.
Hopefullandlord, randomperson

Okay... I hear u... But couldn't God have simply told him, "no, I don't want a human as sacrifice." If just to save the life of the poor girl

PDBonline:
When you have to answer the same questions several times in different ways and they keep asking all over again... you wonder if atheism puts a cap on how far people can reason and grasp thoughts.
Understanding the perspective of someone else is different from agreeing with it but when they don't even understand.. that's the problem.

When you have to forget all morality in an attempt to justify a good God's action, and u have to make statements like nothing is right or wrong, u wonder if Christianity actually make people better or worse

PDBonline:
You are just happy to argue, not to reason if you actually read what I've been writing to you, understand it and this is all you have to come up with.

Am only repeating what u said... In an attempt to justify slavery, u said nothing is really right or wrong... That was the gamut of your argument... Or is slavery wrong to you??

chrmn1:
.
That it was not expressly stated in the Bible where God told Abraham to stop slavery is not enough proof that God never dealt with him in that area just like there was no place where God expressly stated that he should no longer indulge in Idol worship. God said to Abraham, 'walk before Me and be thou perfect' and that instruction clearly shows that there were areas in Abraham's life were he had not yielded to God's perfect will. Okay you say God should prohibit slavery. I showed you a passage the other day of a scenario where a slave would prefer to remain one than be free. So should God override the will of that slave? Additionally I pointed to you that slaves were usually prisoners of war and it wouldn't make sense to conquer a rival nation and allow them regroup and launch a revenge attack. Why would God make a regulation against this?
Now those guys that were handed to Abraham by abimelech, what was the proper/sensible thing Abraham ought to have done? Refuse to have them so they would continue to lavish in a system where there was no iota of the fear of God so that they would continue to be slaves anyway? Now Abraham acquired people to work for him and even though you could tag them 'slaves', the way they were treated was much much dignifying than a common slave. Genesis 14:14 reads as follows: "And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan." They were what you will call slaves but they were 'trained'. Military might in those days was quite similar to education in this day and age. It says 'his trained servants'. It was one of those so-called slaves in his house he asked to go assist hi find a wife for his son and put him in charge of all he had. "And Abraham said unto his eldest servant of his house, that ruled over all that he had, Put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh" (Genesis 24:2). It was one of those so-called slaves he was going to hand over all his substance to if God did not heed his prayer for a son (not another relative of his). Genesis 15:1-3 "Some time later, the Lord spoke to Abram in a vision and said to him, “Do not be afraid, Abram, for I will protect you, and your reward will be great. But Abram replied, “O Sovereign Lord, what good are all your blessings when I don’t even have a son? Since you’ve given me no children, Eliezer of Damascus, a servant in my household, will inherit all my wealth. You have given me no descendants of my own, so one of my servants will be my heir.”"
Now the same way God would not forbid the Israelites from enslaving the nation's around them because of inherent dangers associated with not doing so, He would not mind a situation where foreigners are bought over, implying depletion of the foreign armies that would definitely stand in the way of His people and enslave them if the slightest opportunity presented itself, whilst improving the standard of the lives of the so called slaves.

Now that word in 1 Timothy 1:10 is 'andrapodistais' and it was derived from the root word 'andrapodon' which means 'a slave' so I'm convinced that 'enslaver' is the more appropriate word compared to 'kidnapper'

The mere fact that God didn't address the issue shows implied acceptance. Abraham stopped idol worship but didn't stop buying humans as merchandize and God didn't tell him to stop... If God told him, be would have stopped.
And when abimelech gave him slaves he could have set them free if need felt it was wrong to regard human as property.
And plss, how many people will freely become slaves?? Most slaves were captured victims of war and were sold against their will.
And there is a difference between servants and slaves. Servants are like employees, slaves are merchandize bought and sold the same way we sell condom and garri. In fact, Hagar was another slave. When Sarah couldn't give birth, she told Abraham to sleep with her. That was rape because there was no consent.
That a word is derived fun another word doesn't necessarily make them similar. For example, converse and conversion

Is it just me or is Messi getting even better at retaining possession under pressure?? Even with his back to goal and surrounded by three or more players, he just twists and turns and before u know it, he is running towards an exposed defense and Jordi Alba is with the ball about to play a square pass...
And this Roberto is good when he is with the ball, technically. He can make penetrative runs and create numerical advantage... Enrique should try him in midfield... I remember he played messi's position last season well so he is good in tight spaces...
Lastly, I prefer this away jersey to that orange abomination we sometimes wear

bigkesh:
Guardiola. Modern football "killing players". Wants to be able to use six subs a game


Baba already complaining of Fatigue and it's not even Xmas yet....This is EPL fuckass,we don't take rubbish

Another Sabbatical loading

Smh... He was speaking about the proposed 48- team world cup and how football schedule not necessarily the PL's is killing players.... Surprising how u forgot where implied that LA liga is of more quality because they have more teams in Europe

PDBonline:
Sometimes you need to be patient with people who see things differently from you or are even outrightly foolish (not interested in gaining understanding, just waiting to express their own opinion).
I know others are reading to gain knowledge.

Yh... Others are reading and they will read where u implied that slavery is not wrong. What they won't read however is your answer to the question why god forbade eating shellfish but not slavery.... Because u failed to answer...
Oh, lest I forget, they would also read where u said if marriage is right, then being single is wrong

ifenes:
Human sacrifice is a shameful thing. Please remind me, which of the many gods accepted it?

The lord of lords and king of kings, Jehovah elshadai and all that sh*t... Turns out he likes the smell of humans burning too not just animals

4everGod:
You are wasting your time with that guy. Truth is not his desire but using your words to distort the truth is what his agenda is. Show him the truth for the next 20yrs and he will always say you are wrong. My advice, do not bother anymore!

... Truth?? They slavery is actually not wrong. Is that the truth... Funny that his own version of the truth is different from yours

PDBonline:
I have answered you already and plenty times.
If you say marriage is right, meaning it is wrong to be single? If you say government is right? Does it mean that lack of it is wrong? You only got the answer to killing. There are relationships and actions that may develop and be accepted by people because of necessity or a perception of it. You judge each case differently. That's different from morality. If you are not satisfied, please, go charge God to your court.

God... That's some confuse logic... So nothing is wrong or right??... U no try at all...
And there's no need to charge god to court, he's imaginary

MrPresident1:
THUNDER!!!!

Let us close this thread and go home

Ebuka, I no say one day you go make me proud

U guys seem desperate to close the thread... What exactly are u scared of

Scholar8200:
The law prescribed what sacrifices God expected of them. At that time, the people did that which they liked (Judges 17:6), not what was commanded.Would God honour that which is extra-scriptural especially when the offeror knows better?NO
Did God grant him victory because of that vow? NO! Gideon, Barak etc also got victory sans vows.

During that period, God spoke with Gideon so God could have told Jephthah that he didn't want a human being as burnt offering if only to save the girls life

PDBonline:
Randomperson let me just help you. Everything is not either right or wrong, black or white.

Yh, not everything. But slavery is wrong. Very wrong. Do u think otherwise? U think slavery is neither right or wrong?

PDBonline:
You quoted me. I asked you if marriage was right or wrong, if having government was right or wrong or if killing was right or wrong.

If you had done some thinking before quoting me again, you would have discovered that you were asking the wrong question.

I ignored those questions because they were of no issue to the topic... Anyways, marriage is right, government is right, killing can be right if justifiable... For example, self defense...
Why are u comparing these things to slavery... So u feel God didn't forbid slavery because slavery is not wrong??

Scholar8200:
I know!But in the light of the topic of the thread, did God command the vow that He made? And was it accepted?

God doesn't have to command a sacrifice. In fact the greatest sacrifices in the bible were not demanded, they were voluntary.
Also, not every sacrifice in the bible has proof of acceptance... But could God have expressly rejected it?? Yes. Then why didn't he?

hopefulLandlord:
I'll try my best to be as reasonable and understanding as possible

there was no where god commanded the girl to be sacrificed as burnt offering but Jephthah made the vow and carried it out

Yahweh had NOTHING to do with this, its all on Jephthah, Yahweh didn't force Jephthah to make the vow unlike the case of Abraham/Ibrahim which Yahweh himself "commanded"

one extra biblical addition I like to make is that perhaps Jephthah expected a "servant" or "slave" of his to come out and meet him, he must've fought a lot of wars and his daughter hadn't come out to meet him, this made the vow "easy" for Jephthah to make which eventually backfired

about "acceptance", its not stated but we have to realise that while the acceptance/rejection of many sacrifices are stated, not every sacrifice made in the bible was stated to have been accepted or not; there are instances where the sacrifice is just stated to have been carried out only so its safe to assume it was accepted

God bless you... Oops!! I meant Ogun... Well, they are the same person really since they both accept human sacrifice

PDBonline:
The last time I checked you didn't start this thread and I told you that you don't bring God to your level, you move up to or at least try to move up to His level of thinking.

Why do you think slavery is so fundamental that it should be included into the commandments. Have you tried keeping the first commandment? Even the "Do not commit adultery," you mentioned, have you acknowledged that that was very important?

I started this thread with my other account...
And "why do I think slavery is so fundamental??" Really nigger?? U don't think slavery was important. So not eating shellfish, adultery are more fundamental than slavery... Is this a joke??

PDBonline:
Is marriage right or wrong? Is having government right or wrong? Is killing right or wrong? Is sex right or wrong?

IF YOU READ MY PREVIOUS RESPONSES AND THINK ABOUT THESE QUESTIONS, YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THAT GOD HASN'T LEFT US ALONE TO MAKE THE CONCLUSIONS. HE 1. OFFERS GUIDANCE, 2. GIVES COMMANDS AND GRATEFULLY 3. ALSO ALLOWS US TO USE THE BRAIN HE GAVE US- ALL THREE!

Still dodging... I thought u Christians claim god is source of morality... So why didn't he tell us slavery was wrong?? He told us homosexuality was wrong, didn't he?? If u don't have an answer to this question, just say so and stop wasting my time

4everGod:
Keep looking for one which would support your mischevious erroneous mind. The truth is before you. Research would show you why she was not sacrified. But of course the ATHEIST view must be the right one when it comes to God.

Again, Enjoy!

Erroneous?? Because I take the bible at its actual words?? I thought that's what Christians do na. Which research plsss... Cos I actually did my research before opening the thread and it was sad and funny seeing all those Christian website trying to explain the burning of a young girl to death... I responded to ebuka's comment, he quietly walked away. I referred you to that same comment but you are not discreet to walk away quietly. U don't know that every response u give without addressing the issue is another failure...

Scholar8200:
In addition to what was said by Kingebuka and 4everGod, there is NO passage in the WHOLE Bible where God commanded what Jephthah pledged hence, if you claim God 'accepted it'(for what you think it is), prove to us that He did.

This is a foolish submission. Did God command every other sacrifice in the bible?? He didn't command it but he didn't reject it either... He should have said no, I don't want a young girl as sacrifice, if only to save the girls life.

4everGod:
Rehashed questions! Indoctrinated Atheists! Some of us have better things to do with our intelligence.

Enjoy!

No... Apparently u don't. U are on another thread right now trying to justify slavery. There's no need for deceit and hypocrisy, it's an online forum. No one will hold u if I don't have an explanation

PDBonline:
People who think the Bible should outrightly condemn slavery while supporting capitalism are not consistent in their thoughts.

Why should some people own land? Did they create it? Is it just and fair that some claim ownership of any resources? And why should some people do all the work while just some few share the bulk of the profit? Do you think if workers have a true say, they will grant signature to the so called employment contracts? Who can really pay for the worth of another human's time?

I'm just saying that there are things that are only permissible and reasonable just for now. What is most important is how to live under whatever condition for your best result. What will warrant a slave to be beaten and treated harshly? People can behave wrongly- master and slave alike and there will be consequences. But the Bible places emphasis on how to behave with respect and love and how to accept freedom when you have the opportunity, which the Op did not consider.

Another act of dodging.. Every body can own land. The bible forbids eating shellfish, adultery e.t.c God failed to forbid slavery... If u are trying to justify God's acts and omissions, you are doing a very bad job

4everGod:
i suggest you go through the thread "intelligently". God did not approve of slavery! End of story

But he did... He said Israelites can buy slaves, can beat them, can destroy their eyes, can even kill them if the beating doesn't kill them immediately. So, he approved... Why didn't God say anything about Abraham's slaves

PDBonline:
You got it wrong dear. Go to any prison today and you will find people in there who are not slaves.
When people say "slavery" their minds go to the display of wickedness from one man to the other. These things are present between husbands and wives, between parents and children, between employers and employees etc.
There are slaves who were treated do well by there masters that they rejected freedom when it was offered them. So your argument is against evil human-to-human behaviour, not against slavery- which is just another form of relationship.

However, the Bible indicates that freedom is better. For example, God commanded years of Jubilee where every slaves MUST be freed except he/she personally decides otherwise.(The God of the Bible doesn't violate people's will).

Also, as I mentioned earlier, 1 Corinthians 7:21-23 shows that if you are not free, have freedom in your heart (that's a clear path to mental health) but if you can be freed, use the opportunity.
What else do you want the Bible to say on the topic? Approve what YOU think is correct? It doesn't work that way! We just have to swallow our pride and walk in humility. You can't get it wrong obeying the Bible so far you understand it

Why do u keep avoiding the main issue... In the ten commandments we have "Thou shall not commit adultery". Why don't we have a verse like that against slavery... Stop dodging!!

4everGod:
succinct! optime dixit (Perfectly said). Of course the Atheist mind would still argue and twist the scripture to say that was not what God meant.

THREAD CLOSED! NEXT!

Its the atheist that are using the actual words of the bible that are twisting?? Lols, I know u want the thread closed because you are scared. Well, look at my reply to Ebuka and try to counter it... If u can't, don't bother replying

KingEbukasBlog:
How many times will this be discussed .Guy stop rehashing old arguments - its now boring .Its against the rules to open threads which have similar topics with others . The mods close them .

Yahweh does not get propitiated with the immolation of humans - this is what made Israel perculiar during the ancient times . And here Yahweh makes it clear that anyone that does that would be punished and he does not accept human sacrifices .


Leviticus 20:1-5
Punishment for Child Sacrifice
1 The Lord spoke to Moses, saying,
2 “Say to the people of Israel, Any one of the people of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones.
3 I myself will set my face against that man and will cut him off from among his people, because he has given one of his children to Molech, to make my sanctuary unclean and to profane my holy name.
4 And if the people of the land do at all close their eyes to that man when he gives one of his children to Molech, and do not put him to death,
5 then I will set my face against that man and against his clan and will cut them off from among their people, him and all who follow him in whoring after Molech.

Jeremiah 7:31
31 And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.

Jeremiah 32:35
35 They built the high places of Baal in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin

According to my research , Christian scholars say that the fate of Jephthah's daughter was perpetual virginity or solitary confinement . The scholars proved this with the fact that "and" & "or" have been interchanged several times in translation that means Jephthah gave two options

That whatever that comes out of the house would be

1. Of the Lord's (if it is a human being) [dedicated to God]

OR

2. used as a burnt sacrifice ( if it is an animal )

That explains why the end of the verse said that "she knew no man" that means he chose option 1 since it was a human being - his daughter- knowing fully well that Yahweh abominates human sacrifices .

End of story .

Lolz... This will be easy... I just need to quote the bible for you. Unless you don't believe the bible sha.
Good News Translation:
31 I will burn as an offering the first person that comes out of my house to meet me, when I come back from the victory. I will offer that person to you as a sacrifice.”

Amplified
31Then whatever or whoever comes forth from the doors of my house to meet me when I return in peace from the Ammonites, it shall be the Lord's, and I will offer it or him up as a burnt offering.

Revised Standard Version
31 then whoever comes forth from the doors of my house to meet me, when I return victorious from the Ammonites, shall be the LORD's, and I will offer him up for a burnt offering."

NIV
31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.”

All the versions say AND. But because u don't want to admit that God accepted a human as burnt offering u are trying to rewrite the scriptures. If it had said "AND ONE THOUSAND COWS", u would have agreed that it is and. When John 14:6 says " I am the way, the truth AND the life. " u don't argue that it means OR.
Assuming without conceding that's it's OR... that means human sacrifice was an option and God didn't say, " No, I don't want human burnt offering " so God acquiesced to the option of human sacrifice.
Your hypocrisy is making me feel ashamed on your behalf

MrPresident1:
The reason is because slavery is forever. When Jesus comes, there will still be slavery.

You, either you're a troll or you're under the influence of something..

EyeHateGod:
@op them don Give you the answer you seek? Watin i miss??
https://www.nairaland.com/3376200/background-story-slavery-bad-hebrews

My boss, them never explain anything ooh.. They just they give excuses like: it was the practice at that time. As if God didn't give other laws to ban other practices but he forgot a whole slavery

PDBonline:
If I may ask, why do you think the Bible should condemn slavery?

You didn't quote from 1 Corinthians 7:21-23:

"21Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so. 22For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord’s freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ’s slave. 23You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings"

Your attitude in whatever situation you find yourself matters. I know it's difficult for some people to get rid of the victim mentality but the Bible teaches you to stay free in your mind and attitude even if you are a slave.
In the old Testament also, we read the story of a slave who went on to become the ruler of the then Super Power Egypt because he had freedom in his disposition to life and retained his inner identity with God.

The society is yet to be free of slavery even among the free but if you understand the Bible stand on the topic, you current situation will not affect your mindset and you will be able to recognize opportunity for freedom.

I think the bible should condemn slavery because it's barbaric, wicked and inhumane... U don't think the bible should condemn slavery??
And what point are u trying to prove by saying freedom of the mind?? Remember, that in spite of all Joseph did for Potiphar, he was still thrown in prison for the unsubstantiated claims of a promiscuous wife... That's slavery for u, no right to fair hearing
I would like to know, do you think slavery is bad?? If it is why didn't God or Jesus forbid it?? How can u reconcile this blatant omission with the fact that God remembered to forbid eating shellfish, homosexuality e.t.c. Are these ones worse than slavery.
FYI, there's a new thread on an other issue u might be interested in: https://www.nairaland.com/3511203/did-god-accept-human-being#51796001

MrPresident1:
Olodo thread.

Next!

...

Most of us are familiar with the story of Isaac and how he was almost used as sacrifice by his father, Abraham. But there is a story in the bible where God actually accepted a girl as burnt offering... I mean she was killed and burnt- with fire as an offering to god. This is the bible reference:
30 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,

31 Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.
Then verse 39 shows the fulfillment of the vow.
39 And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man.

The whole story can be found in Judges 11: 30- 40.
So how do we explain this act of God. Which kind of God accepts a human being as burnt offering. How is that different from the God of Ogun

Image123:
Are you foladara777?
Do you smoke weed?

Yes I am. No I do not. Can u answer those two questions now?