₦airaland Forum

TAO11:
@Juliusmalema: Notice in my foregoing PS to you that I stated that the Yoruba progenitor of the present ongoing monarchy of Lagos (mid/late 1600s) initiated a patron-protegé pact with the then King of Benin whose support he ultimately won and thus emerging the preferred candidate among all the eligible Yoruba princes from the Olofin lineage.

This pact (which was initiated by the progenitor) continued for centuries to be a primary basis for the traditions of endorsement (or formal recognition) of subsequent successors by Benin Kings.

In fact, I am highly indebted to Etinosa1234 for having helped to provided on of the evidences I may be needing (attached below as highlighted) showing that this practice of formal recognition by Benin kings is not dynastically related to Benin.

The fact that it may be set aside (if Akintoye’s complaint in this letter is dependable) without any fear of ancestral repercussions is clear evidence of its ceremonial and secondary nature — coming merely from a patron-protegé pact between the Yoruba progenitor and the then Benin King.

cc: macof, RedboneSmith, scholes0, gomojam

Lagos Obas are elected or chosen from princes in the already established Lagos ruling houses who themselves were the children of the first Benin monarch of Lagos. Commoners are not elected or chosen. Try again.

You have an uphill battle to surmount as far as Lagos Obas continue to tell the world that they are the children of Oba of Benin.

In the said letter by Akintoye, it was him and his nephew Kosoko, two Benin blood relatives that were fighting.

The current Oba of Lagos clearly stated to the channels tv interviewer that the first Oba of Lagos was a Male son of the Oba of Benin not your Olofin.

gregyboy:
They just want to force the benin-ife connection for supiority gains and we are not letting them to it, gone are those we argue blindly this time no need for arguments on unverified myth

Benin is their stumbling block into the south south and south east. If they can claim Benin through their fake Benin/Ife connection, they think they can claim every other tribes in south and middle belt Nigeria that claim Benin ancestry as extension of Yoruba.

They also tried to claim Lagos monarchy by saying Oba of Benin is Yoruba from Ife.

Since we killed the Benin/Ife connection, their history is now largely confined to the 1930s and late 1800s

Etinosa1234:
Ohhh... thanks

Hopefully I get them soon

Thanks boss

You are welcome, it's nice that you are keeping these guys busy and teaching them the real history.

The Benin have just proved that they already owned Lagos as early as 1603 but you want your students to believe that Benin copied the Oba title from Yoruba because you reference a book published in 1899, over 300 years after Benin annexed Lagos and created the monarchy.

You must think your students are dumb or maybe they are.

Benin annexation of Lagos in the 1500s and your Yoruba oba reference of 1899 is over 300 years apart. Benin already owned part of Yoruba land 300 years before the book you referenced was written and you still want your readers to believe Benin copied the title from Yoruba.

Please hear our son the Oba of Lagos again saying who his father is and who him and Lagos chiefs hold their allegiance to.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvaiC_djW8o

gregyboy:
So what change, does it.make benin-ife have a connection

Yoruba clown......

Earlier on the thread she was trying to claim Itsekiri monarchy through the Benin royal house which she claimed to be Ife.

She has now finally washed her hands off claiming Benin/Ife relationship because she can't provide it beyond the 1800s, very soon she will also wash her hands off her Oro Oba Ado, Oba of Benin supposed burial site at Ife because there is also no evidence to back that up. Gradually all Yoruba claims on Benin history is being destroyed one by one.

Etinosa1234:
To support ur claims... This is a letter written by the Oba of Lagos in the 1850s that state the Benin influence on Oba of Lagos as at when some people supposedly claim they were kicked out... I highly doubt settlers in a particular or traders in a particular area have such Powers over the political monarchy of the state they reside... And if it was by trade, then why Benin... why not ijebu or ijaw or other tribes?If a Hausa community claims that, they'd have easily been proved wrong in subsequent writings

PS... I've been reading a lot about PhysicsQED post and I must say that that Bros knows a lot about Benin culture and references... He last came online 5 years tho...

Till today oba of Lagos still claims oba of Benin as his father not Ooni of Ife. Hear him saying that any white cap Lagos chief must salute the Oba of Benin on installation.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvaiC_djW8o

TAO11:
Regarding my foregoing PS to you @Juliusmalem on how the Yoruba progenitor of the present Lagos dynasty

Below is what the current Oba of Lagos says about his progenitor, the Oba of Benin. You from Ijebu can't claim to know the history of Lagos monarchy more than the Oba of Lagos himself.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvaiC_djW8o

.

Please if you are coming with the Benin/Ife relationship nonsense, make sure you come with scholarly evidence that is older than the 1800s.

TAO11:
Now with regards to the bolded above, I do not (for the umpteenth time) have even an atom-weight burden of proof to present any such early writing.

In other words, at no point did I ever claim to have any pre-1900 written evidence of some alternative word which was allegedly used in the pre-1900s to describe a Benin monarch. I never made any such claim.

In sum: If it is not claimed, it is not an obligation to be fulfilled.

Peace!

cc: @Afam4eva, @macof, @RedboneSmith, @scholes0

Good to know that you have finally wash your hands off the Benin/Ife relationship because you can't prove it.

Hope your students are taking notes of all these your disclaimers.

Juliusmalema:
How did Bini share border with Ethiopia?..Lol

How did Azikiwe arrive at reverse history even the kings know nothing about?

There is nothing Bini could do even if british didn't come?

Bini was heavily under yoruba rule even as far as Itshekiri

All are Yoruboid groups..That's the history we know.

Nna biko hurry back to tell us that you wrote your bolded above out of anger and perhaps the frustrations of learning the true history of pre colonial Igbo land from Etinosa1234. Please don't tell me that RedboneSmith is also part of your we

I wouldn't want to believe you have been learning your history from Tao11 of nairaland. I am now beginning to understand how TAO11 has been getting away with her misinformation.

Below is the history of Lagos which is now the most important Yoruba city as far back as 1603, more than 400 years ago. Enjoy the reading. The reference is there for your verification.

The relevant passage in Andreas Ulsheimer's account (from 1603) is the following:

"Forty miles from Benin lies a large town called Lago [Lagos], which also belongs to the King of Benin. It lies on an island and is a frontier town, surrounded by a strong fence. In it live none but soldiers and four military commanders, who behave in a very stately manner. Every day they come together in the king's house and make a sacrifice every morning. After the sacrifice, they hold court in the open air, in front of the king's house. Whoever has anything to complain about makes his complaint. They all fall on their knees when they present their case, and when one man is given a verdict in his favour, he thanks the authorities and the king. Also, two envoys always stand with the judge and listen to what is done. Every day these two send news off to the king, informing him of what the judges have done that day. They do this throughout the whole year. This is practiced not only in Lago, but also in other towns of the king, as well as in Benin itself. Many people come to the aforesaid town Lago, by water and by land, with their wares, which consist of beautiful cotton cloths woven in all kinds of colours and patterns." - Andreas Ulsheimer's voyage of 1603-4, translation by Adam Jones in German Sources for West African History, 1599-1669 (1983), pp. 40-41

The "forty miles" would be either German miles or perhaps Dutch miles (Ulsheimer was a German, but he was working for the Dutch), not English miles.

At that time, the king of Benin, presumably one of the "warrior-kings" of Benin tradition - most likely either Orhogbua or Ehengbuda - was campaigning directly in the Lagos area (something which Egharevba, who had no idea about Ulsheimer's account, also claimed independently on the basis of tradition in his works on Benin history centuries later) and the "king's house" in "Lago" that Ulsheimer refers to is a reference to his residence there while on campaign. Ulsheimer gives a very brief description of the Benin palace, in Benin City, separately from this, in another part of his account (given on p. 37 of the book by Adam Jones cited above), and so the "king's house" that he mentions in that passage is not a reference to the royal palace, but to a certain royal building in "Lago".

macof:
1. After 4 days

You and Samuk are going through all the stages of grief
From denial to anger (even wishing me dead) now wallowing around bargaining to acceptance..

2. Which Europeans wrote at the trial of King Ovonramwen 1897 not as early as the Yoruba instances brought up on this thread.
And calling personal names doesn't mean anything.. That is not in reference to the king of benin

3. Going by your usual logic that all things must be documented yes.
Going by the logic of your king that Oranmiyan was the first person known as Oba in Benin, also yes
Going by the logic of historians and scholars that the word "Ọba" goes back to the 13 Ife nobles who ruled Ife together before Oduduwa, also yes

So you are now confirming to the world what we have always said that Yoruba earlier claim below that Benin have been burying their oba in Ife since 1100s is a lie and fake. It's very refreshing how this debate is proving previous Yoruba claims as lies and fabrications.

https://www.nairaland.com/1794927/ile-ife-final-rest-place-oba#24390068

I can see someone peeing on themselves after seeing the above link.

Lesson: the internet doesn't forget non forgive, so be careful about your claims and insinuations.

We were supposed to keep the political arrangement between Benin and Yoruba that was created in 1930s secret, but you guys couldn't keep your own side of the bargain. Now we are unveiling everything for the enjoyments of our Igbo readers.

Some of these Igbo guys know you guys are lying but rather stay on the sidelines to be entertained. There is no serious Igbo person that will argue that their most senior Igbo traditional ruler in the south east, the Obi of Onitsha didn't copied it's monarchy system from Benin more than 300 years ago or that Benin already annexed Lagos in the 1500s with proven historical records dating back to 1602. So Benin kings were simply known by the English word kings during these period. Nonsense.

macof:
subjugation in your mind you mean

I don't see you provide documentation of this. Provide the 400 year old document that says Bini subjugated yorubas

Despite all the pleadings from your aunty madam copy and paste lecturer not to take this bait, you seems to be calling for it. Don't you see how she has cleverly avoided this part of the thread because she knows what will follow. Maybe you want us to start reeling out Yoruba historical accounts by Yoruba historians on how the Yoruba were subjugated by the Benin. All you need to do is simply ask and they will be provided.

If you ask for it, be ready to take it like a man when it starts coming out.

So your Oro Oba Ado burial site of Oba of Benin the Yoruba claims to be in Ife since the 1100s is a lie and fake.

See the link below for Yoruba previous claims that Benin have been burying their Obas in Ife since 1100s till 1800s.

https://www.nairaland.com/1794927/ile-ife-final-rest-place-oba#24390068

AreaFada2:
Sam sam, they won't find any. It will be like toto hair before lazy yoot began stealing pants for ritual. So they will be bringing some supposedly old publications to obfuscate.

I like the way Benin history is keeping them busy. Make dem dey butcher rotten meat. No hand to scratch body.

Oga, I never knew how serious the Yoruba project to steal Benin history was until I started reading madam copy and past lecturer on Nairaland. She knows that most Nigerians of this generation that are on this forum are not very well informed in history, so she confused them with her copy and paste citations which she usually misrepresents and obfuscate to deceive and hoodwink her audience who don't usually crosscheck those references. She gets are mojo from their adulation.

I don't know if you still remember the last major thread on Benin/Ife relationship before she went on long sabbatical. That thread ended on 52 pages with her making so many unsubstantiated claims she couldn't prove.

1. She claimed there is a burial site in Ife for Benin obas since the 1100s - the site was excavated by a white archeologist and found nothing. The supposed burial pits were empty. Same her that is now insinuating on this thread that there is no evidence that Benin used the word Oba earlier than 1800s. So her Oro Oba Ado in Ife is fake according to her recent claims. You can't claim to have Oro Oba Ado in Ife since 1100s and now be asking Benin to give you prove that they used the word Oba earlier than 1800s. You already told us you have the prove in Ife or have you forgotten. She is not very clever, the ability to copy and paste garbage doesn't make anyone smart. You are only smarter than those that lacks the ability to see through the deceptions you are presenting as academic works.

Link to Yoruba Oro Oba Ado since 1100s till 1800s

https://www.nairaland.com/1794927/ile-ife-final-rest-place-oba#24390068

2. She tried to claim Organe that was mentioned by a Portuguese visitor to Benin in the 1400s as Ife but the description, direction and distance from Benin didn't fit, so she abandoned it. I don't know how Organe and Ife even resembles in name.

3. She then claimed a 12 century Yufi as Ife, with citation as usual only for Davidnazee to brink prove that situated Ufi in Zimbabwe, south Africa, she ran away.

4. She tried to argue that Benin didn't started Lagos monarchy and once ruled over Lagos, evidence from the Oba of Lagos himself was provided and the account of a Dutch man who visited Lagos in 1603 and met the place under Benin control was presented.

Now she is cleverly dancing around insinuating without coming out clearly to claim categorically that Benin didn't have Oba pre-1800s, she is hiding behind two fingers to be demanding for European evidence.

This is the same person that have spent years telling everyone who cares to read that Oba of Benin have a special burial site called Oro Oba Ado in Ife since the 1100s, after bursting her several bubbles she now found a new angle of Yoruba owning the word Oba.

She has refused to answer the simple questions of when Benin copied the Yoruba title from the Yorubas.

1. Was it before Benin conquest of Yoruba land?
2. During the time Yoruba land was occupied and under Benin empire or
3. After 1897 when the British destroyed Benin and liberated the Yoruba states being controlled by Benin.

It's not good enough to just say Yoruba own the word Oba because it's now widely used in Yoruba land. Please also tell you readers who may actually be ignorant or pretending to be ignorant of the fact that the Benin empire existed and ended in 1897.

Throughout history it's usually an empire that leaves behind legacies, system and names for others to copy, like Rome and Greek left the world with so many word such as Olympics, senate or senator, garrison, legion etc, that we are still using today.

In Nigeria everything has to be upside down so much so that the Yorubas are now claiming that it's the Benin empire that ended in 1897 that turned around to copy their Oba title from the Yoruba confederacy that started in late 1800s after the Benin empire ended.

It's like arguing that the Romans copied the monarchical system from Britain. It's only an ignorant person that doesn't know that Rome came before Britain and Britain was under Roman control that will believe this.

The Benin empire and her relationship with Yoruba was purely that of a colonial master and subjects and control of trades in Yoruba land with tributes being paid back to Benin, nothing about blood relationship with Ife.

The Benin/Ife relationship was created around 1930, that is why no one including madam copy and paste in chief can't provide any evidence beyond 1800s to prove her claims. Show us sometime beyond 1800s to prove Benin/Ife connection.

In their desperation, they now buy Benin sculptures at Igun street Benin city to be buried somewhere in Ife for someone to dug up and point to it as the link between Benin and Ife.

TAO11:
You’re right! Lol! /s

If Oba of Benin were called king, when did Benin copy the word Oba from the Yorubas, is it before they conquered Yoruba land, or during the conquest or after Yoruba liberation by Britain.

Please if you are coming with the Benin/Ife relationship nonsense, make sure you come with scholarly evidence that is older than the 1800s.

Unfortunately, you can't just wish away the over 400 years of Benin subjugation of Yoruba.

The relationship between Benin and Yoruba was that of colonial master and subject, the Igbo shouldn't get it confused.

There is not Benin/Ife relationship. The fallacy was created in 1800s,nothing before then in Benin history. Those that have contrary views can provide evidence.

The Benin and Yoruba people are different people.

RedboneSmith:
What other story? And for Pete's sake, don't say Olaudah's.

.



Do you even realise how rambling this section of your comment is? At first you said Ezechime was an Igbo living in Benin; towards the end tou said his origin is Benin. Which is it? Again, moving from point A and settling in point B doesn't mean point B is under the political control of point A. Sheesh. Onitsha was independent of Benin. Kingdoms in Anioma, like Ubulu-Uku, Issele-Uku, etc were indeed under Benin control and their obis went to Benin to obtain the ada upon ascension to the throne and to obtain the oba's approval. Onitsha never did that, neither did any community in the southeast.





False, sir. Do you believe the kingdom of Abyssinia shares a border with Benin? Do you? Olaudah also said that. Since you trust his accuracy so much, let's also go and tell the world how Benin and Ethiopia were neighbours in the 18th century.





The idea that Olaudah was born in S Carolina is not a third party claim. Olaudah himself used to tell people that he was born in S Carolina. And there's documentation supporting the claim. Now am I saying he was born in S Carolina? No. All I'm saying is there's too much uncertainty surrounding his birthplace. This same Olaudah in another letter he wrote said he was born in a place called Elese. Which was it: Essaka, Elese or S Carolina? This is the writer on whom you're building your entire thesis that Benin ruled the southeast on, someone that couldn't get the story of his birthplace straight?



Who are the many historians that say he was born in Isseke? Besides Acholonu name one prominent historian that says he was born in Isseke. Fact: No historian worth his salt will beat his chest and say he knows exactly where Essaka is.



When there are holes in that 18th century writer's story, smart people from the 21st century will treat it with caution.



The bolded is by far the stupidest thing you've said yet. Clearly demonstrates you don't understand the concept of 'burden of proof'. How the heck does one prove a negative?



False again. This is Acholonu's position (as can be clearly seen by anyome who has eyes), and not Edwards. Edwards was even one of those who believed Olaudah came from Anioma.

Guy, why are you trying to deny Olaudah Equiano his Igbo heritage because he said that Benin rule over Igbo land was nominal. What would you have done if you had come from eastern Yoruba that had it worst, are you not aware that several of their traditional rulers got beheaded by Benin army, sometimes for minor infractions as disrespecting a Benin citizen? TAO11 Ijebu even got it terribly bad, the reason she has devoted herself to always rubbish Benin history whenever she can't twist and steal it for the Yoruba.

Benin lord it all over everyone, from east, west to middle belt, it's nothing to be ashamed about. They were a formidable force of their time. All that are history now.

TAO11:
cc: @Afam4eva, @macof, @RedboneSmith, @Juliusmalema

Notice yourself how you have desperately resorted to fraud.

You attempted a similar fraud with me yesterday where you had ripped off a 21st century internet publication wherein the author’s own wording uses "oba" in relation to the Benin monarch.

You tried desperately to pass off the fraudulently to the unsuspecting reader as if that specific wording was coming directly as a quotation from the 1800s.

Your modus operandi has remained the same even today despite the disgrace you were made to face for a similar act yesterday. What’s even more disgraceful for you is how you mindlessly also lift off and paste the author’s listed bibliography just in order that you may fraudulently pass off the authour’s own wording as something you quoted from one of those listed reference. You are such a disgrace. I spit on you!

Anyways, just like I disgraced you for such a fraudulent attempt yesterday, I will doing so again even now — and I’m convinced that the readers who used to be unsuspecting are now very wary and cautious of your unrelenting fraudulent modus operandi.

In any case, the wording "oba" is simply not used for "Overami" (Ovoranmwen) anywhere in the actual transcript. The attachment below shows a screenshot of the actual transcript without the word “oba” for your monarch.

—————
PS insertion for the fair readers:

Do a comparison of the actual text of this transcript (as attached here) and the wordings he attempted to fraudulently pass off as the transcript to notice how the author of the 21st century internet publication he was lifting from was simply not b]quoting from the transcript , but was paraphrasing using his own preferred wordings.

You can't choose and pick which account that suits you. I provided about 22 references that reported the trial/events and as you can seen, several people reported on the trial. You have only provided one report without citing your sources.

Are you now claiming that Oba Ovonramwen was also not oba in the 1897, after earlier stating that you are not disputing that Benin used the word Oba in the 1800s Make up your mind. Haven't agreed that there are documented evidence that referenced oba of Benin in th 1800s, I was expecting you to demand for 1700s and earlier and stop trying to be clever by half.

After admitting that there are documented evidence of Benin using the word Oba in the 1800s, there was really no need to then supply you documented evidence for what you already admitted to. I only did it because of those you are trying to Deceive.

TAO11:
Just to be clear on the point I’ve been making so far on this thread so I am not misconstrued:

(1) I haven’t claimed that “oba” was never used by the Binis until the 1900s.

(2) I haven’t claimed that there is no 1800s writing which uses the word “oba” arguably in relation to Benin monarchy — although none of them is yet able to provide any such writing.

[Below is the transcript from the trial of Oba Overami and his chiefs which took place on Wednesday 1st September 1897 and Friday 3rd September 1897.]

The trial took place in the Consular Court House, Benin city. The court house was guarded inside and outside by the Haussa soldiers.

Sitting in court were there present:
Sir R. D. R. Moor, K.C.M.G., Commissioner and Consul-General;
Captain E. P. S. Roupell, Acting Political Resident;
Captain C. H. P. Carter, Officer Commanding Troops Benin City;
Nine members of the newly established Native Council,
Some 60 Chiefs of Benin City.
Oba Overami

There were no advocates on either side, and every witness was cautioned to speak the truth. The Consul-General opened the proceedings by stating that the palaver was not about the late fighting, because it was quite right that the natives should fight for their country, but that it was about the massacre of the unarmed white men of Phillips' peaceful expedition. The palaver would be managed native
fashion, that is, according to native custom and law, and not according to white
man's law. The first thing to settle was to find out who instigated the massacre,
whether the king or the chiefs ?

The three witnesses on behalf of the British were:
Igbedio, ' a boy ' {i.e., dependant) of the chief Obahawaie,
Agamoye, a boy of the chief Obassieki, and
Wobari, another boy of Obahawaie.

References:
1) A CATALOGUE OF THE CORRESPONDENCE AND PAPERS OF THE
NIGER COAST PROTECTORATE CSO 3/1/1 -3/5/1 1894-1899
NATIONAL ARCHIVES OF NIGERIA ENUGU

2) Bacon R. Benin City of Blood, 1897, p.111 (the King's House is the Palace of the White Chief)

3) Ibid p. 112 (they will be dictated to as to terms of surrender and their future behaviour.)

4) Ibid p.112 (as long as the Juju priests remain at large they will form centres of discontent,)

5) Ibid p.112 (the same system of native council as is in vogue with the Jakris will be instituted,)

6) Ibid p 112 (more likely to inspire confidence in the natives than the present Consul-General, Mr. R. Moor
Ibid. Great Britain, Gallwey to Foreign Office., 21 January l897.

7) Great Britain, Vol LX, Moor to Salisbury, 24 Feb., 1897

Ibid., Moor to Salisbury, 12 March, 1897.

9) Ibid., Moor to Salisbury, 18 March, 1897.

10) Guardian Newspaper, The Benin Massacre, Trial of the king. Two Chiefs shot, September 16, 1897

11) Moore, R. Benin Expedition, 1897 – February 22 1897 – Commons Sitting – HC Deb 22 February 1897 vol 46 c964; The First Lord of Admiralty on the Motion “That this House do now adjourn,”

TAO11:
As in ehn. And I always wonder if written account is the only source of historical information in the experts’ view.

In fact, not only is it NOT the only source, it may be misleading at other times if not carefully examined, applied and couched with professional caution..

But in any case, these clowns haven’t provided any written evidence whatsoever — which is ironic, since that is their supposedly sole and infallible standard of historical evidence which they always demand from others.

Another annoying cliche they often bring forth is the statement: Show me an eyewitness written account of Oduduwa.

And I’d silently be like: Could it be real that a human being is this dumb? Lol!

You don’t even have an eYeWiTnEss WrItTtEn AcCoUnT of your Eweka 1, or your Ewuare 1 among others.

Yet they exist according to you (and of course me) — in fact, they are your greatests.

So, with what historical standard did y’all verify and confirm their actual existence?

Delusion is real o my brother.

In all your write up you have tried to be clever by half by not saying that Benin didn't use oba between 1485 till date because you know such claims will destroy your Benin/Ife connection that was supposed to have started in the 1100s.

Unlike your compatriots who are not so tactical, you have been careful not to cause too much damage that will later affect Yoruba interests in Benin history because Yoruba history heavily rely on Benin history. You know that even if there are no documented evidence to show that Benin used Oba pre-1800s it doesn't in anyway diminished Benin historical achievements pre-1800s, it doesn't mean that most parts of Yoruba and Lagos weren't under the control of old Benin empire, it just means that there was no relationship between Benin and Ife before 1800s, which will blow your cherished Benin/Ife connection out of the water.

You have cleverly danced around the other Edo titles for traditional rulers but haven't actually make the claim that that was what Oba of Benin was known as between 1485 when the European visited to 1800s.

You know you can't eat your cake and have it, push it further that Benin didn't use Oba pre-1800s, your Benin/Ife 12th century relationship will be out of the window which will confined Yoruba history to little earlier than 1800s. Unless you want to tell us that Oranmiyan came to Benin in late 1100s only for Benin to adopt the Oba title 700 years later in the 1800s as macof seems to be claiming.

The Benin oba title which you share with Benin is your only gateway to accessing Benin history by claiming it as yours because you know you can hoodwink a lot of your followers on nairaland who can't ask themselves the simple question of how an empire whose written history began in 1400s and destroyed by the British in 1897, will suddenly turns around to adopt the title of the traditional rulers of her former subjects. What title did they use pre-1800s. You know a lot of Nigeria are not this inquisitive, so you chum out garbage to try to hoodwink and confuse them.

It's actually more in your interest that we dig out something otherwise Benin/Ife relationship can no longer be promoted by you guys as being earlier than the 1800s.

TAO11:
Enough of the cunning distractions. Face your burden below:

(1) Where is the evidence for your claim that written evidence exists going back “600 years” ago showing the use of “oba” in relation to Benin monarchy??

(2) Your requested 1800s written evidence from Yoruba has been provided.

Now don’t be a hypocrite in addition to being an illiterate. You have to be man enough to meet the standard which you yourself have set.

Provide us an 1800s written document from Benin — before then substantiating your own claim of “600 years” ago.

We are waiting!

———————
PS: Lest I forget the Ife-Benin Connection (which you’re dead-scared of), refer to the attached screenshot of an archaeological evidence of a ‘bronze’ plaque depicting your Oba. It was recovered from an old slave-quarters at Ife.

Anyone that thinks the Yoruba will give up on the Benin/Ife connection is deluding himself because take Benin out of Yoruba history what else will be left in Yoruba classical history, Benin his the classics in Yoruba history.

You are actually the one that inadvertently supply someone like me one of your usual cut and paste references that completely demolished the Benin/Ife connection.

Other than the disputed oral history between Benin and Yoruba, there is no written historical evidence to back up the Benin/Ife connection.

TAO11:
You had to cut out part of my comments which you’re quoting here just so people won’t see the actual gist which you wanna twist? Haha!

Everyone is already beginning to realize that you’re a delusional illiterate. Hopefully you too will soon realize it.

Having said that, the attached screenshot below is from my comment yesterday on this same thread where I unequivocally made my position clear.

RedboneSmith also clarified the same point earlier today as seen in the second attachment.

And the specific gists about which you’re struggling hard to live in denial are as follows:

(1) The point of including an 1800 written document as part of my request to you is to highlight your delusional audacity of having similarly requested same from me — Nothing more, nothing less.

However to be emphatic, there is no writing from the 1800 which names a Benin monarch alongside the prefix “oba”, neither is there any 1800 writing which uses “oba” clearly, specifically, and unequivocally in relation to Benin kingdom.

Moreover, I provided my evidence as you requested (even though I didn’t have to — as I didn’t begin with any such specific claim of ‘written document’). It is you the, Clown-In-Chief who are yet to provide any such evidence even as we speak despite making such grandiose claim. Now sharrrrap and crawl back into your whole in reverse mode!


(2) The point of requesting you to provide such a written evidence from the 1700s, the 1600s, the 1500s, or the 1400s, etc. is because of your delusional claim of having such written evidence some of which you claim go back as far as 600 years ago.

In other words, you were requested to provide evidence for an assertion you made — not so that I can archive what doesn’t even exist anywhere to begin with.

Again, you are yet to provide the evidence for your claim even as we speak and despite the earlier attempted fraud of your vice-clown. Again crawl back into your dirty hole from where you had escaped.

cc: @Afam4eva, @macof, @RedboneSmith

I have looked at your conversation with macof, you guys clearly had evidence that the Benin monarchs were known as Oba in the 1800s but decided to hide it from your audience, this is disingenuous on your part, meanwhile Afam4eva was beginning to lean towards your deception, credit to you that you quickly disabused his mind.

The average Benin person is taught his/her history from birth and not necessarily interested in seeking documented proofs of what he/she already knows. Although we are aware of European archives of Benin history dating back to the 1400s, we don't need anyone to tell us the title of our Oba. Thanks to people like you that made us realised that we should perhaps take our history more seriously. I am not sure if the institute of Benin studies even have translated copies of the European achieves of Benin history. Truth be told, whether one likes you or not, I actually like the amount of efforts Yoruba like yourself puts into studying the Benin history that the average Benin person takes for granted.

Haven't said these, we must be vigilant against you guys twisting what you have read in your favour like you guys are trying to do with the Benin/Ife connection.

The Benin don't see these debates has competition with the Yoruba but just being protective against you guys using your research of Benin history to deceive unsuspecting Nigerians who are seeking for genuine historical accounts because Nigeria no longer teaches history in schools and most modern day Nigerians know very little about their history and come to nairaland for historical accounts.

The Benin and the Yoruba seems to be supplying all the lectures and entertainments. This thread is supposed to be an Ikwerre thread, see how it has become Benin and Yoruba historical battleground. This thread wouldn't have probably gone beyond one page.

RedboneSmith:
I was expecting you people to bring up Equiano. That is you people's only reference for your claim that Benin ruled the southeast.

Never mind that some scholars believe Equiano came from present-day Delta State. Never mind that Equiano's book contains some inaccuracies (for example, he says the Kingdom of Abyssinia borders Benin), and should therefore be used as evidence with caution.

If Benin ruled in the southeast memories of it would have been preserved, the same way memories of Benin overlordship in other places have been preserved. The fact that any memory of Benin overrule in the southeast is completely absent both in Benin and in Igbo traditions says quite a lot.

Equiano is one of the prides of Africa, he was one of the very first African to author an autobiography in the late 1700s, his association with the Igbo race should be a thing of pride.

You don't have to deny him because he said the Igbo people were under old Benin empire in the 1700s. If it helps, it wasn't only the Igbos that Benin lord it over.

TAO11:
Just to be clear on the point I’ve been making so far on this thread so I am not misconstrued:

(1) I haven’t claimed that “oba” was never used by the Binis until the 1900s.

(2) I haven’t claimed that there is no 1800s writing which uses the word “oba” arguably in relation to Benin monarchy — although none of them is yet able to provide any such writing.

See damage control, madam lecturer is already warning her fans and students ahead of time. Teacher, you are right on this occasion, no one will be so dumb to make such claims you are now disclaiming.

I can see some disappointments amongst our Igbo and Yoruba readers. You know sooner or later Benin historical documents will surface with the title Oba. I won't be surprised if you have already seen them because of your fascination with Benin history, hence this disclaimer of I didn't claim this and that.

People, I hope you have all heard her, she didn't claim or dispute that Benin had Oba in the 1800s and 1900s. She just wants us to give her the 1700s to the 1500s Benin written history to add to her archives.

You see why I advised Afam4eva not to conclude yet.

Poor ReboneSmith and macof, they must be scratching their heads now

macof:
You will tell me what word was used to describe the nobles of ife before oduduwa was even King
clowns

Oduduwa and Oranmiyan are myths. I am not interested in discussing myths.

JanSnow:
You entered an igbo thread to cause trouble amongst igbos then involved yoruba. You derailed the thread and now you are saying nonsense, nobody should saty at any sidelines this is public space

Ikwerre have told you guys that they are not Igbo, what part of what Wike said about Ikwerre not being Igbo don't you comprehend. This is not Igbo thread, everything is not either Igbo or Yoruba and before you start to display your ignorance, better go back to the sidelines.

Afam4eva:
I also want to know what other traditional rulers in Edo state apart from the oba of Benin are called.

Hold on to your conclusion.

The title was originally the preserve of the Oba who was the sovereign of the empire.

When the first European visited Benin in 1485 they met an Oba but the title is much older than that. For those disputing that the king of Benin was not known as Oba, they should tell us what the title was.

There are countless other traditional rulers in Edo state with their own titles but the Oba was the sovereign.

Don't also forget that historically the Benin empire was not only confined to the present Edo state, most part of Igbo land, eastern Yoruba up to Lagos were all part of the old Benin empire. Whilst the capital of the empire had the Oba as the sovereign, all other towns had something like, deji of Akure, Eleko of Eko, olu of Warri, Enojie of Ekpoma etc.

RedboneSmith:
But why are you mentioning me when you know all you have to say is nonsense?

No be una first begin ask for pre-1900 documentation? Have you found one that supports your position. No, you haven't. So rest, you hear? You have tried. Rest.

You should have read from the sidelines. It still doesn't change the fact that your people were under the old Benin empire whatever the king was called.

RedboneSmith:
The word was first listed in 1900-5, yet we have all these evidence from at least the 1850s of its use in Yorubaland. I see.

So the Benin must have bribed the oyibos. Don't Igbos have centuries old folktales about the Oba of Benin? Was Yoruba not existing when the white people listed the word as being Edo in origin? Was Yoruba not using it then and they still list it as being Edo in origin. Does any one who is not a baby in Nigeria needs to be told about the Oba of Benin in history? Almost all tribes in southern and middle belt Nigeria have centuries old folktales about the Oba of Benin. Do you require to see documented evidence to know that Benin have had Oba for centuries.

Your madam lecturer can fool you but not those white people that have been visiting Africa for close to 1000 years. They know who is who. You can't choose when to quote them and when to argue and disagree with them because you don't like what they wrote.

You are happy when they say the Yoruba used the word Oba in late 1800s but not happy when they say it's Edo in origin, what double standards.

RedboneSmith:
Arguing with you people is tiresome. Bring pre-1900 documentation you're bringing online dictionary from the 21st century.

Issorait. See my own online dictionary.

Even your Igbo people have folktales about the Oba of Benin dating back centuries, Nna biko look for another excuse.

macof:
So pitiful that in your inability to provide one document in your so called documented history since 1400s, that shows Bini use of the word "Oba"... After two days you can only provide a screenshot to an online dictionary that says
"used by various people .."

Here's the 2nd definition your own dictionary gives
This second definition even comes with a source [the renowned Collins English Dictionary]
Rendering the second definition more reliable than the one you made a screenshot of

Keep exposing yourself thinking others can't access the dictionary themselves to seen what it says.

The word Oba was first listed 1900-5 not 1998 as stated by madam lecturer and if it was that recent as 1998, it simply means the oyibos that list the word as Edo in origin isn't fooled by your falsehood.

Anyone can check dictionary online for what it says about the word.

The word is Edo in origin that the Yorubas share with the Benins.

RedboneSmith:
Lol. You and greg are cut from the same cloth.

Argue with those that listed the word Oba as a Benin word with Edo origin in the international dictionary. I feel your pain, the Benin are always a thorn in the flesh of those that want to shove their Igboness or Yorubaness down the throat of everyone else. So it's understandable when Igbo and Yoruba collaborate against Benin because just like most parts of Yoruba land Igbo was also under the old Benin empire. History is what it is. It's not our fault.

The compilation of the English dictionary didn't start recently, if the word Oba had a Yoruba origin, the dictionary would have say so. You guys see everything from the prism of population. In your logic, it has to be a Yoruba word because they are more in population. You call yourself historian and don't know that Benin is much more older than Yoruba, what sort of skewed tribal historian are you.

gregyboy:
Leave d igbo guy to be talking nonsense

They are yet to prove d titles benin used before tge arrival of whitemen

The dictionary went further to say the origin of the word is Edo.

If they are not up to mischief, how is it possible that Benin whose written history began in the 1400s is the one that will copy the word Oba from Yoruba whose written history began in the 1800s. It's a good thing the dictionary is not written by Nigerians. Wonder shall never end.