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Culture › Re: Why Ikwerres Are Not Igbo - The Logic Behind It by samuk: 5:20pm On Nov 20, 2020

gregyboy:
And my screenshot wss what

You are bittered towards we benins

And you cant hide it

So you mean benin never had title for his king
Before they adopted oba at the given year

Can you hear yourself and what you support

So the benin king was titlesss good one brilliant
Guy

Because the oba of benin wasnt always addresses by the title oba then he never had a title

Modafuka igbo man

Culture › Re: Why Ikwerres Are Not Igbo - The Logic Behind It by samuk: 4:54pm On Nov 20, 2020*

This is the international definition in the online dictionary, I am sure you trust the body that compile the English dictionary to do proper research of the origin and meaning of a word before it is included in the dictionary. The international dictionary listed the word Oba as a Benin word.

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Culture › Re: Why Ikwerres Are Not Igbo - The Logic Behind It by samuk: 1:04pm On Nov 20, 2020*

gregyboy:
Funny lady

Did you see when he also made use of the word jekiri he would have used the word itskeri if he was the one that made the quote, the author was definitely giving a direct quotation from what he quoted

Those words were in quotes and was written in subscript to show it is a quote, and not from the author

Again the word oba was used there becauss the white men were passing the said message within themselves in africa so when he use the word oba it could be understood to his fellow whitemen in africa too

But that would be impossible if they were writing outside Africa or Europe

Please get your fact right

Etinosa1234
Samuk
Valirex
Ghostwon
AreaFada2
Afam4eva

After unsuccessfully trying to attached themselves to Benin glorious past through the Oduduwa myth, they are now clutching on to straws by demanding evidence that Benin had Obas pre-1900. They believe anyone with sense of Benin history will take them seriously for some strange reasons best known to them.

They want everyone to believe that after Benin have subjugated them for over 400 years only to be liberated by the British in 1897, Benin now adopted or copied the Oba title from them. My question to them that they have refused to answer is what was the title of Benin rulers in the more than 400 years of lordships over Yoruba.

Whether they like it or not Benin is to Yoruba what Britain is to America. Benin will continue to be their father unless they find a way to erase the nearly 500 years of Benin written history before Yoruba written history began. An impossible task.

Please don't beat them too much, it's already very painful confining them to their written history that is barely earlier than the 1800s.

You are right, Benin and Ife relationship was a fabrication that lacks historical backing. It was supposed to be a political arrangement amongst the people of old Western Nigeria. They were supposed to share Benin history as part of Yoruba history whilst Oba of Benin remains the most senior traditional ruler above all Yoruba Obas as its was before the British came.

The political arrangement was that Oba of Benin retains seniority through Oduduwa to Oranmiyan to Oba of Benin as the first child, the Alaafin came second as the second son whilst the Ooni was the chief priest or shrine keeper, but before you knew it the Yoruba political elites lead by Awolowo change the arrangement by elevated the Ooni from the position of chief priest to the most senior Oba in old western Nigeria, the Oba of Benin felt insulted and move his people out of the political arrangement to form the mid west leaving the Ooni and Alaafin to fight it out amongst themselves.

By taking Benin history out of the political arrangement, they are now struggling to present Yoruba history that is barely older than the 1800s. Imagine the pain they go through each time they have to reference books on great Benin history just to tell their stories.

The first 400 years of Benin historical records had no reference to Oduduwa, Oranmiyan and Ife.

Who in their right senses will argue that Benin had Oba before 1900s.

Please take it easy on them, historical fights between the Benin and Yoruba will always be unfair because of the unfair advantage of almost 500 years written Benin history. You will always be 500 years ahead and they are already seriously disadvantaged. It's like a heavy weight boxer fighting a feather weight boxer whose one hand is tied to the back.

Historical achievements and records are not necessary by population.

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Culture › Re: Why Ikwerres Are Not Igbo - The Logic Behind It by samuk: 8:36am On Nov 20, 2020

Alba3:

We should just try and accept people's choice of identity. Efik, Ibiobio, Oron, Annang refused to take one identity till today. It took some Ijebus, Ekitis, etc. sometimes to accept Yoruba as the common name, although the people know they are the same people but each was already formed based on city-state, confederate and dialect with boundaries and political identity that often led to wars among them to protect their heritage until British imposition of the name on everyone for political identity. This, Itshekiri never accepted till today ,and no one is forcing them; they identity as different tribe.

We have this virtually everywhere in Nigeria: Idoma-Alago, Ogori-Magogo, Igala-Yoruba, Urhobo-Isoko, Tiv-Norther Cross River tribes, etc.

My point exactly, every tribes in Nigeria may be related, who then have the rights to claim others without their consents.

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Culture › Re: Why Ikwerres Are Not Igbo - The Logic Behind It by samuk: 7:56pm On Nov 19, 2020*

macof:
You are always on yoruba threads to promote divide.. Always on igbo threads to do same

Everyone cannot be minority like you, sorry

Imagine saying Yoruba borrowed the word "ọba" from Bini language but can't provide evidence of Bini use of the word before 1900s

So you have proved that Benin borrowed it from Yoruba.

You may call Benin minority but the fact remains that almost the entire eastern Yoruba including Lagos were once under the Benin empire with your almighty Alaafin of Oyo even paying tributes to the Oba of Benin and your Alaafin begging the almighty Oba of Benin for troops.

I already provided you guys more than enough evidence starting from 1485 when the Oba of Benin became known to the Europeans. If you dispute that the Oba of Benin was not known as Oba, it's left for you guys to tell the readers what the title was.

Take it or leave it the title Oba spread from eastern Yoruba that was under the Benin empire to other parts of Yoruba land.

This is what Hugh Clapperton have to say about your Alaafin of Oyo:

"In the evening we had a visit from the king of Oyo, to thank me for the presents I had given him, and again to assure me of being welcolme; said that he wanted nothing, unless it was something that would speedily cause the submission of the rebels. He said that he had sent to his friend the king of Benin for troops to assist him in the war."

- Hugh Clapperton, Journal of a Second Expedition Into the Interior of Africa, from the Bight of Benin to Soccatoo, 1911.

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Culture › Re: Why Ikwerres Are Not Igbo - The Logic Behind It by samuk: 5:43pm On Nov 19, 2020

macof:
Can you present any of these documents from 1485, 1552, 1668, 1669, 1704 and 1897 in Amsterdam and all over Europe using the word "oba" to refer to any King of Benin?
Simple task

Since you are insinuating that Benin kings were not called Oba, please kindly tell us what they were called.

Culture › Re: Why Ikwerres Are Not Igbo - The Logic Behind It by samuk: 5:34pm On Nov 19, 2020

I am glad this happened to someone like him on an Igbo-subject thread. He has in fact helped me spread accurate historical information across the Niger even though he hates that. The People now know better. We’d get there!

Igbo-subject thread?

Yoruba and ignorance, you don't even know the ethnic composition of your region and you want to debate history with Benin. You still call Ikwerre Igbo despite their no 1 citizen denying being Igbo. They actually claim Benin ancestry if that will help. These people don't need the Yoruba to tell them who there forebears were. Imagine the insinuation that the Oba title started with Oba Ovonramwen.

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Culture › Re: Why Ikwerres Are Not Igbo - The Logic Behind It by samuk: 3:51pm On Nov 19, 2020

When the Benin debate history with the Yorubas, it's always unfair fight, it's like going into the battlefields will AK47 and bazooka and the Yoruba are holding pebbles and stones.

Imagine what a historical timeline like 1485, 1552, 1668, 1669, 1704 and 1897 does to them, with actual publication on Benin history in Amsterdam in 1668 and another in 1704 amongst many other European written records.

Our Yoruba friend want us to believe that the Benin Oba that sent an ambassador to the king of Portugal in the 16th century was not called Oba but king. grin

These people will shamelessly hold to anything no matter how nonsensical it sounds to defend their falsehoods.

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Culture › Re: Why Ikwerres Are Not Igbo - The Logic Behind It by samuk: 9:00am On Nov 19, 2020*

It is gratifying to know that Yoruba written history began after the end of old Benin empire in 1897. Benin with much older written history couldn't have borrowed the Oba title from Yoruba whose written history began in late 1800s after the end of Benin empire. Yoruba rose from the ashes of great Benin and you guys have the British to thank for it.

Yoruba have to call on each other for support in any thread because of their paper weight written history.

Next they will come up with other people histories and claim them to be theirs. They will soon come and tell us how 12th century Yufi in Zimbabwe was Ife or Organe that was east of Benin with a travelling distance of 20 moons/months was Ife.

These are people without written history until the British came to liberate them from Benin only for them to be recaptured by the Sokoto caliphate.

See how they are already crowding the thread congratulating themselves and celebrating their paper weight written history.

Read for more knowledge. Benin history and Yoruba history are not in the same class, they are centuries and more than 400 years apart

The first European travelers to reach Benin were Portuguese explorers under João Afonso de Aveiro in about 1485. A strong mercantile relationship developed, with the Edo trading slaves and tropical products such as ivory, pepper and palm oil for European goods such as manillas and guns. In the early 16th century, the Oba sent an ambassador to Lisbon, and the king of Portugal sent Christian missionaries to Benin City. Some residents of Benin City could still speak a pidgin Portuguese in the late 19th century.
The first English expedition to Benin was in 1553, and significant trading developed between England and Benin based on the export of ivory, palm oil, pepper, and later slaves. Visitors in the 16th and 19th centuries brought back to Europe tales of "Great Benin", a fabulous city of noble buildings, ruled over by a powerful king. A fanciful engraving of the settlement was made by a Dutch illustrator (from descriptions alone) and was shown in Olfert Dapper's Naukeurige beschrijvinge der Afrikaensche gewesten, published in Amsterdam in 1668.[32] The work states the following about the royal palace:

The king's court is square and located on the right-hand side of the city, as one enters it through the gate of Gotton. It is about the same size as the city of Haarlem and entirely surrounded by a special wall, comparable to the one which encircles the town. It is divided into many magnificent palaces, houses and apartments of the courtiers, and comprises beautiful and long squares with galleries, about as large as the Exchange at Amsterdam. The buildings are of different sizes however, resting on wooden pillars, from top to bottom lined with copper casts, on which pictures of their war exploits and battles are engraved. All of them are being very well maintained. Most of the buildings within this court are covered with palm leaves, instead of with square planks, and every roof is adorned with a small spired tower, on which casted copper birds are standing, being very artfully sculpted and lifelike with their wings spread.

[33]
Another Dutch traveler, David van Nyendael, visited Benin in 1699 and also wrote an account of the kingdom. Nyendael's description was published in 1704 as an appendix to Willem Bosman's Nauwkeurige beschryving van de Guinese goud-, tand- en slave-kust.[34] In his description, Nyendael states the following about the character of the Benin people:

The inhabitants of the Benin are in general a kind and polite people, of whom one with kindness might get everything he desires. Whatever might be offered to them out of politeness, will always be doubled in return. However, they want their politeness to be returned with likewise courtesy as well, without the appearance of any disappointment or rudeness, and rightly so. To be sure, trying to take anything from them with force or violence, would be as if one tries to reach out to the Moon and will never be left unreckoned. When it comes to trade, they are very strict and will not suffer the slightest infringement of their customs, not even a iota can be changed. Though, when one is willing to accept these customs, they are very easy-going and will cooperate in every way possible to reach an agreement.

[35]
Given this characterization of the Benin culture, it might be understood that the Oba did not accept any colonial aspirations. As soon as the Oba began to suspect Britain of larger colonial designs, it ceased communications with them until the British Expedition in 1896-97, when troops of that country captured, burned, and looted Benin City as part of a punitive mission, which brought the kingdom's imperial era to an end.

References:

Graham, James D. (1965). "The Slave Trade, Depopulation and Human Sacrifice in Benin History: The General Approach". Cahiers d'Études Africaines. 5(18): 327–30. doi:10.3406/cea.1965.3035. JSTOR 4390897.

^ a b c Bradbury, R.E. (2017). The Benin Kingdom and the Edo-speaking Peoples of South-western Nigeria. Routledge. pp. 54–8. ISBN 978-1315293837.

^ Law, Robin (January 1985). "Human Sacrifice in Pre-Colonial West Africa". African Affairs. 84 (334): 65. doi:10.1093/oxfordjournals.afraf.a097676. JSTOR 722523.

^ Trigger, Bruce G. (2003). Understanding Early Civilizations: A Comparative Study. New York: Cambridge University Press. pp. 88. ISBN 978-0-521-822459.

^ a b Trigger, Bruce G. (2003). Understanding Early Civilizations: A Comparative Study. New York: Cambridge University Press. pp. 77–78. ISBN 0-521-82245-9. OCLC 50291226.

^ Bradbury, R.E. (2017). The Benin Kingdom and the Edo-speaking Peoples of South-western Nigeria. Routledge. p. 40. ISBN 978-1315293837.

^ Time Life Lost Civilizations series: Africa's Glorious Legacy (1994) pp. 102–4

^ The History of Africa: The Quest for Eternal Harmony.

^ Aisien, Ekhaguosa (2001). The Benin City Pilgrimage Stations. ISBN 9789783153356.

^ Slavery and the Birth of an African City: Lagos, 1760--1900.

^ Connah (2004), pp. 129

^ Dapper, Olfert (1668). Naukeurige beschrijvinge der Afrikaensche gewesten. Amsterdam: Jacob van Meurs. pp. 495-505. naukeurige beschrijvinge der afrikaensche gewesten.

^ Dapper, Olfert (1668). Naukeurige beschrijvinge der Afrikaensche gewesten. Amsterdam: Jacob van Meurs. pp. 495-496. Retrieved 7 February 2020. 495.

^ Bosman, Willem (1704). Nauwkeurige beschryving van de Guinese goud-, tand- en slave-kust. Utrecht: Anthony Schouten. pp. 212-257. Retrieved 8 February 2020. RIO FORMOSA Anders gesegt DE BENIN.

^ Bosman, Willem (1704). Nauwkeurige beschryving van de Guinese goud-, tand en slave-kust. Utrecht: Anthony Schouten. pp. 222-223. Retrieved 8 February 2020. de maen.

^ Chapter 77, A History of the World in 100 Objects

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Culture › Re: Why Ikwerres Are Not Igbo - The Logic Behind It by samuk: 2:47pm On Nov 18, 2020*

My claim was very simple and specific, show me a publication before 1900s referring to a Yoruba traditional ruler using the official title of Oba. I still can't see it. I did not asked for works that was claimed to have been completed before 1900s.

Show me a pre-1900 publication that list any Yoruba traditional ruler as having the official title of Oba, who or what was the name of the traditional ruler and what town did he ruled.

This shouldn't be that difficult considering the vastness of Yoruba land and the numbers of those that now call themselves Obas.

All I ask is a pre-1900 publication listing the Ooni, Awujale, Alaafin etc as having the official title of Oba.

Today you will have something like Oba Deji Olusegun, the Ewi of XYZ or Oba Rilwan Babatunde Osuolale Aremu Akiolu, the Oba of Lagos.

Can you show me a pre-1900 publication example of the above.

Samuel Johnson, "The History of the Yorubas", was published 1921. I want to see a pre 1900 publication or don't Yoruba have published history earlier than 1900. What if I had asked for 1850 publication as evidence.

The other alleged French citation didn't refer to any specific ruler in Yoruba land as Oba. I am not interested in sweeping general claims but specifics.

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Culture › Re: Why Ikwerres Are Not Igbo - The Logic Behind It by samuk: 7:35am On Nov 18, 2020*

valirex:
Mehn you're vast

These guys can only confuse few gullible Igbo around nairaland. Rather than cite or quote from a source published before 1900s to support or debunk your claim, they will go on an academic exercise to confuse the gullible. They will call for support from their fellow Yoruba because they believe the more the merrier and when more people shout falsehoods they become truth.

With all the lengthy submission aimed to debunk my claim I didn't see any citation or quotation from a book published before 1900s confirming that any particular Yoruba traditional ruler used the Oba title before 1900s and who the Yoruba traditional ruler was.

Any scholar researching the history of Yoruba today will only write down what the Yoruba told him/her, which is different from citing an eyewitness accounts of 15th, 16th, 17th or 18th century. This is were Benin history departs from Yoruba history. Yoruba history are mostly morden day fabrications.

What the Yoruba do is to cite as evidence morden publications which are largely the opinion of the writers who were not eyewitnesses to the events they write about, they try to use these so called academic works to explain events of hundreds of years ago or earlier academic works. We have gone through all these debates before and it will be a waste of time to continue with it.

The Oba of Lagos until recently was simply known as Eleko of Eko until it was changed to Oba of Lagos.

Not everyone that parade themselves as Yoruba today were classified as Yorubas until the 1900s.

The only Oba the European met in Nigeria was the Oba of Benin.

One would have thought that considering the hundreds of Yoruba traditional rulers that now call themselves Obas, it would have been very easy to point to any written evidence before 1900s in which a specific Yoruba traditional ruler was documented with the title of Oba. Instead they are interested in concocting the root, leaf, stem and branch of the word, Oba. They want us to accept that Ooni, Alaafin, Ewi, Awujale, Baale, etc, all mean Oba. It's like the Igbo telling us that their traditional rulers were using the Obi title before the Onitsha people arrived Igbo land from Benin.

Instead of providing specifics, they will be gyrating over the place with copy and paste citations that doesn't answer the question. The truth is Oba was later added to the official titles of Yoruba traditional titles to give them more weight and prestige because of the height the title commands in ancient Benin empire.

What I presented is the official Nigeria document of the first and second class Yoruba and Benin traditional rulers and their titles as recently as 1938. Today there are hundreds of traditional rulers in Yoruba land parading themselves as Obas.

Just 150 years ago, all these people parading themselves as Obas would have been beheaded by the Benin army for impersonation. History is replete with what happened to Yoruba traditional rulers that had the bad luck of disrespecting the Benin throne in any form or shape.

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Culture › Re: Why Ikwerres Are Not Igbo - The Logic Behind It by samuk: 9:37pm On Nov 17, 2020*

Ask for the expert sources for each of the bogus claims they’ve made. For example: since they have the burden of proof having made those claims, then put the following request to them:

(a) Can you show me (or cite me) an expert evidence which supports your claim that ”no Yoruba traditional ruler used the Oba title until the 1900s”?

SALARIES OF CHIEFS IN THE SOUTHERN PROVINCES IN 1938

Paragraph 4
"The Salaries of the First and Second Class Chiefs in the Southern Provinces are as follows

"First Class
1. Alaafin of Oyo £4,200
2. Alake of Abeokuta £2,250
3. Awujale of Ijebu Ode £1, 700
4. Oba of Benin £1,650
5. Ooni of Ife £1,440

"Second Class
1. Olubadan of Ibadan £2,400
2. Owa of Ilesha £1, 450
3. Oshimawe of Ondo £350
4. Orangun of Ila £200

Source : See Page 4, Paragraph 4
GOVERNMENT OF THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF NIGERIA
Federal Ministry of Information
National Archives
File No 33044 Class Mark CSO 26
Letter No. S.P. 11828/20
Secretary Office, Southern Province Nigeria
Enugu 31, January 1938.

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Culture › Re: Why Ikwerres Are Not Igbo - The Logic Behind It by samuk: 5:39pm On Nov 17, 2020*

Afam4eva:
This is a perspective that further buttresses the point i was making. Igbos and Ikwerres see things differently. Ikwerres see no reason why they should be called Igbo and not Igbos calling themselves Ikwerre considering that these two groups are an artificial creation. But you should also understand the perspective of some Igbos who think "Heck, we're the bigger BIA speaking group and everything that calls God 'Chukwu' should use our name".

Don't be surprised if research shows that the bigger Igbo borrowed their BIA and chukwu from a smaller tribe. I am sure you must have seen the debate between the Benin and Yoruba on the origin of the title Oba. On the surface it will appear the Benin borrowed the word from the Yorubas because of its wide used by them and their much bigger population, but the fact is no Yoruba traditional ruler used the Oba title until the 1900s. Under British colonial rule the most senior Yoruba rulers such as the Ooni and Alaafin used the title Sir, so what you have is Sir Adebola Ademola, the Ooni of Ife, it was later they started using Oba.

The Benin have been using the Oba title for almost 1000 years with the European having written records of the last 600 years of it used by the Benin.

How can a tribe that have been using a word and title for almost 1000 years with almost 600 years of documented records borrowed it from a tribe that recently started using it.

Some have argued that Benin and Yorubas are closely related, should Benin now accept to be Yoruba or the Yoruba accept that they are Benin, I think this is similar to the problem Igbo is having with tribes outside the south east who doesn't want to identify as Igbo.

Some of these tribes may also be protecting their centuries old histories.

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Culture › Re: Why Ikwerres Are Not Igbo - The Logic Behind It by samuk: 3:54pm On Nov 17, 2020

valirex:
I like this reply you ọtemwen.

I will be keeping it for future reference

urhwese. Thank you so so much

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Culture › Re: Why Ikwerres Are Not Igbo - The Logic Behind It by samuk: 3:51pm On Nov 17, 2020

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Culture › Re: Why Ikwerres Are Not Igbo - The Logic Behind It by samuk: 10:50am On Nov 17, 2020*

Sepukku:
What I would like to add to your analysis is that if an ethnic groups forges a new identity under a formalized dialect it does not negate the fact that they indeed emanate from the same grouping or lineage as the group they seceded or segregated from. This is the ultimate point that should be addressed here.

Other peoples in Africa express this same phenomena but are able to link themselves and understand that they originate from or are subsets of the same people biological, culturally e.t.c. more so than other groups around them. Case in point. The Zulu and Xhosa tribes of South Africa, the Swazi tribes of Swaziland and the Ndebele tribes of Zimbabwe all emanate form the same Lineage the Nguni, though they speak formal dialects and identify as separate ethnic groups( under clan/totem names) the languages are mutually intelligeable to each other and they are all under this Paternal lineage. Therefore:

Do the Anioma, Ikwerre, Etche, Igbo( as one formalized dialect group around the South East) come from the same direct lineage? This is without a doubt. DNA will prove this as I can almost guarantee that if an Ikwerre man and an Anambra man both take Paternal DNA tests they would both fall under the same groupings than from the Hausa or Yoruba peoples.

The confusion comes in when the word "igbo" is used as other formalized dialects around the SE have chosen to unite as a unit and the others in the surrounding areas have not. This does not however change who they began as.

You can change your cultural identity, your clothes, your name and even fabricate your own history but you cannot change your BLOOD SIGNATURE.

This is the truth and no matter how anyone tries to dance around this subject they cannot subvert nature's indelible marker on them.

Self determination is a human right and therefore you can be who or what you want but do it with all sense of honesty.

FACTS!

Your submission is very skewed and biased, you already concludes that certain tribes are Igbo before calling for DNA evidence.

Supposing a DNA analysis shows that all the people of southern and middle belt Nigeria are related, what name would you call them, would you then agree to be called Benin due to this blood relationship, because the name Benin is older than Igbo or should the Edo, Yoruba, Igala, Idoma etc, people that share this common blood
relationship now be called Igbo.

If you wouldn't agree to being called Benin, Igala or Idoma (all older names than Igbo), why then would you want Ikwerre or any other independent tribe outside the south east to accept the Igbo tag even if DNA shows blood relationship between these tribes and those that now call themselves Igbo.

Artificial names such as Igbo and Yoruba have to be agreed to by every one that want to be identified as such. Anioma is a collection of formerly different tribes that made up Delta North, all these tribes don't have issues being called Anioma today even though they have different heritages, Same way the old Bendelites were proud of the name Bendel. The name Igbo should be confined to south east rather than forcing tribes outside the south east to adopt it.

The name Igbo seems to be problem for those outside the south east to identify with, other tribes are not keen to associate with the people that currently goes by the social political name Igbo. The question should be why?

The Igbo can drop Igbo and adopt the name Ikwerre instead of Igbo for all the tribes in the south east, I am sure the Ikwerre people wouldn't mind. If you can't adopt Ikwerre why would you want Ikwerre to adopt Igbo identity.

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Politics › Re: I Am Not Igbo - Wike Clarifies Confusion About His Name And Link To Igbo by samuk: 8:57am On Nov 16, 2020

Deadlytruth:
Because Igbos actually invented, propagated and practically coerced all other tribes into the one-Nigeria philosophy. It was Igbos who argued that the unity of Nigeria was perpetual and non-negotiable as at when all other tribes wished that the marriage broke up. So Igbos can't later suddenly turn round to deny Nigerianism without first explaining their intention behind their initial rabid quest for one-Nigeria.

These Biafrans are too ignorant to know that all Nigerians are suffering from the greedy unitary system created by their political leaders in the 1960s.

The British left us regional government with provisions for the welfare of everyone including minorities but Igbo wanted to have it all and the only way they could move freely from their region into another region to annexed the resources and prosperity therein was to force the unitary system of governance upon Nigeria with the barrel of the gun. The Northern political elites initially protested vehemently and even threatened succession but later find a way to use the same gun and their population to turn the unitary system introduced by Igbo to their advantage.

Every Nigerian is been watching the Igbo with suspicion ever since. It seems the Igbo haven't learned anything because they are trying to force people and lands outside the south east to be Igbo.

When Nigeria eventually restructured, Igbo land will be confined to their 5 south eastern states, anyone outside the south east that feels strongly about their Igbo roots can relocate and be accommodated there.

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Politics › Re: I Am Not Igbo - Wike Clarifies Confusion About His Name And Link To Igbo by samuk: 11:58am On Nov 15, 2020

Nchenches:
One with Yoruba surname, speaks a Yoruba dialect, shares same cultures with other Yorubas - that person is a Yoruba, but he/she can be a national of Brazil or Great Britain or indegene of Kogi state of northern region of Nigeria.

One with Igbo surname, speaks Igbo dialect, shares same culture with the Igbo but lives in Haiti, Gabon or Southsouth region of Nigeria is Igbo.

The drive by the winners of Nigeria’s civil war to fragment the oil producing areas in order to easily get more booties from the oil producing areas in the southsouth - that is behind the “Ikwerre no be Igbo.”

An English-American can’t be renamed French-American or German-American. An English-American remains English-American, speaks English language that is native only to England, but speaks English language with American accent. Every summer, the affluent ones visit their roots in England on holidays. They don’t suffer identity crisis like Wike. Mere seeing Wike’s difficulties of speech in denying his Igbo identity shows the level of identity crisis he suffers.

Whilst it's true that there are English-American in America but these migrant group can not force other groups such as Germany-American to accept English heritage because they share the same English language, name and culture.

Recent Igbo migrants to Rivers or Igbos in the south east can't force Ikwerre (Rivers-Benin) descendants to become Igbo because they share similarity in language and names with Igbos.

If there are indigenous Igbo communities in Rivers, the people should stand up and tell us the names of their communities and history, it's not for someone from the south east to be claiming Rivers as an extension of Igbo. It's the Igbos that are claiming Rivers and not Rivers claiming Igbo.

Politics › Re: I Am Not Igbo - Wike Clarifies Confusion About His Name And Link To Igbo by samuk: 12:33pm On Nov 14, 2020

Obi1kenobi:
But this is irrelevant to your earlier claims. You claimed only recent migrants to Delta and Rivers claim to be Igbo. That's ignorant nonsense. Then you were trying to use Benin as an example of proud identity. Which makes no sense. Even Igbo denialists acknowledge their Igbo heritage even if they reject the identity of being Igbo. Which is no different from the Edoid groups you're citing. Ikas for example may say they're not Igbo, but they don't claim to be Edo/Benin/Bini either. They acknowledge their complex history and heritage is tied to both groups.

And most of us don't dispute anyone's right to self-determination. I don't know any Igbo man in real life who concerns themselves over whether Ikwerres are Igbo or not. Most of us know that some SS Igboid groups don't identify as Igbo and it's at best a curiosity to us and not something we lose sleep over. Most of the conflict is fanned by outside groups itching to see us fight amongst ourselves, like Dele Momodu's mischievous line of questioning and all the Yorubas mastuurbating on this thread. Check any of these threads about Ikwerres and it's always Yoruba folks all over them trying to sow discord. As I said earlier, the Igbo identity is a recent one where Igbo speaking people came together under one banner to forge a common identity. Democratically. It's a choice and those who don't want to be part of it are entitled to their choice.

One particular reason Ikwerre denialism provokes Igbos more than other Igboid groups that do it is that so deeply entrenched are they in their narrative, that they invented a non-existent history with Benin to buttress their Igbo denialism. Ikwerres clearly share common roots with clans in southern border areas of Imo state. But so deep is their Igbophobia and political opportunism that they promote a clearly fabricated history. You can make an informed choice without lying.

Why will anyone deny their heritage and then put in an effort to fabricate a history linking them to Benin. It doesn't make sense. Ikwerre can even gain more from claiming Igbo heritage in a multi ethnic state as Rivers because the millions of Igbos that resides there will always give them their political support not to talk of the wider Igbo nation.

There is no reason for Ikwerre to deny being Igbo today because they are in a different state and region, the fear of domination by other Igbo is no longer there as it were when they were part of the old eastern region.

All these denials point to one fact, that is they were forced or coerced in the past to claim Igbo identity and as soon as they got their freedom from the east, they revert back to their original identity. This is also probably the reason they changed the names of their towns to non Igbo names after Igbo lost the civil war.

Who has the right to draw up the criteria of identifying an Igbo person, what makes someone an Igbo, is it by similarities in name and language? Can former president Gooluck Jonathan pass as an English man. Can Donald Trump be regarded as an English man?

The Scottish, Irish and Welsh people all have similar name and language as the English but don't consider themselves English.

Politics › Re: I Am Not Igbo - Wike Clarifies Confusion About His Name And Link To Igbo by samuk: 11:40am On Nov 14, 2020*

Obi1kenobi:
Many tribes in the SS trace their roots to Benin and yet, they don't claim to be Bini. They are far more confused than Igbos are, so it's ironic to see you using them as an example. There are like 3 dozen Edoid languages in Nigeria, many of them mutually intelligible, and yet, each group claims to be a distinct tribe despite having mere dialectical differences. I find it very funny that Isokos for example claim to be a distinct tribe, when there is no meaningful distinction between them and Urhobos. That is absolute lunacy. It's the same thing you see when you move further East to the Ekoid groups and you see many mutually intelligible linguistic groups in Cross River and Akwa-Ibom claiming to be distinct ethnicities. If anything, it is very impressive that hundreds of Igbo clans, many of us with very different histories and marked cultural distinctions (with often unintelligible dialects) who were never any kind of single entity pre-colonialism (unlike empires that brought other groups together) democratically came together under one banner as the Igbo nation.

Under the Benin empire, the independence and the rights of every tribes that made up the empire was sacrosanct. Tribes were allowed to retained their various identities otherwise most southern and middle belt Nigeria would have been known today as simply Benin because the empire had the military might to have decreed so.

The Igbo is currently trying to build an empire by claiming people who have been independent tribes for centuries. You guys in your delusions think that because you pronounced a tribe Igbo, they automatically become Igbo. People should be comfortable enough to buy into the Igbo project. Ikwerre don't want another layer of Identity, they are happy being Ikwerre and Nigerians not Ikwerre, Igbo and then Nigerians.

Igbo was just a name to bring various erstwhile independent tribes together under a social political umbrella. It's nothing but a club or union of tribes that people can become part of if they are comfortable enough or exit or not even want to be part of.

Igbo/Biafra is not different from what Bendel used to be for Edo/Delta people. You guys should be contended with your five south eastern states.

I am surprised you guys are also not claiming Benin as Igbo because Benin actually shares numerous words with same meanings with various Igbo tribes. There is also similarities in culture, the market days and new yam festival. I guess Benin is too well established and steeped in history for you guys to annexed and claim. Although Nnamdi Kanu did made the laughable claim recently.

The reason Igbo project/empire will not be able to go behold the south east like the Yoruba and Hausa Fulani have expanded beyond their primary geographical locations is Igbo don't enjoy same central cultural/religious focal points as the Yoruba and Hausas. Who will Ikwerre or the Obi of Agbor now regard as his cultural and spiritual superior in Igbo land and will the Igbos accept the superiority of Obi of Agbor. The Yoruba Ooni/Alaafin and Hausas Saultan don't have these problems.

Politics › Re: I Am Not Igbo - Wike Clarifies Confusion About His Name And Link To Igbo by samuk: 9:04am On Nov 14, 2020

nwala85:
this my governor's defense is an empty crap.
at a point he denies Igboness and at another he accepts it. I am a Rivers man and I am igbo.
The only sensible sense he made was reinstating the fact that being igbo does not connote that he should accept his fellow igbos to come and rain mayhem in his state.
this is very correct assuming the igbos were actually responsible for all the problems.

You definitely have problems with the English language. Wike never say he is Igbo, he only made assumption without conceding to be Igbo. Igbo must ask themselves why no tribes outside of the south east want to be Igbo, the only people in Delta and Rivers that claims Igbos are usually recent migrants whose forefathers were not indigenous to those places.

There are tribes in far away Kogi and Kwara that are proud to be Yoruba and there are tribes in far away Benue that are proud of their Benin heritage yet there are tribes within Igbo land that are rather proud of their Igala, Benin and Idoma heritages. Should Igbo get their Biafra, I see an internal struggle and civil war between descendants of Igbo slaves and slaves masters.

Culture › Re: Ikwerre Is Bini Land by samuk: 8:04pm On Nov 13, 2020

Moferere:
5 human heads?

Op are you NORMAL?

Op has been having sleepless nights since Wike openly denied being Igbo.

2 Likes

Culture › Re: Ikwerre Is Bini Land by samuk: 8:00pm On Nov 13, 2020

silentoperator:
I am from Omoku in Ogba Kingdom of Rivers State. My late grandfather told me that Akalaka migrated from ancient bini kingdom. He had two children Ekpeye and Ogba. If it was not so, he wouldn't have said it. Based on this, i make bold to say that i am not igbo though i don't have anything against the igbo man in fact they are among my best friends at home.

Chei, the Igbos are not going to like this. Nice for boldly saying the truth, something the Onitsha will be too afraid to say nowadays.

4 Likes

Politics › Re: I Am Not Igbo - Wike Clarifies Confusion About His Name And Link To Igbo by samuk: 11:57pm On Nov 12, 2020

Igboid:
Lol

You see, it's not only Ikwerre that have made the Benin heritage claim, people from all over southern and middle belt Nigeria have and still claiming Benin ancestry.

1 Like

Politics › Re: I Am Not Igbo - Wike Clarifies Confusion About His Name And Link To Igbo by samuk: 11:51pm On Nov 12, 2020

Igboid:
So Chime sounds Bini to you?
What about Eze too? That sound Bini too?

There's the Eze family in Benin with various branches. They goes by the morning greetings Lavi-Eze. All established Benin families have morning greetings that identify them and also have chiefs that represents them in the Palace. Why single out two names from the list I gave you.

The people that left Benin took with them names and cultures you guys are now claiming, including the names of your market days and titles of some of Obi of Onitsha chiefs, including the Obi's title himself, Agboghidi, his sceptre are all Benin in origin.

Some have argued that Chime was actually Ikhimwin which the Igbos they met in their new land pronounced Chime. The Igbonization of Benin names and words are not peculiar to the eastern expansion of the old Benin empire, most Benin original names and settlements in Lagos were also Yorubanized.

1 Like

Politics › Re: I Am Not Igbo - Wike Clarifies Confusion About His Name And Link To Igbo by samuk: 11:11pm On Nov 12, 2020

DamnnNiggarr:
but when Igbos said they're not Nigerians, nobody wants to here that, why??

Nigerians don't want Igbos to leave Nigeria but they also don't want the Igbos to expand beyond their current south east, the fear of Igbo inordinate ambition and domination is the beginning of wisdom as the Hausa/Fulani learned too late.

5 Likes

Politics › Re: I Am Not Igbo - Wike Clarifies Confusion About His Name And Link To Igbo by samuk: 10:47pm On Nov 12, 2020

TheLionofLasigi:
But the igbos on the other hand can be really overbearing....you stay in someone's land, he doesn't attack you or rape your wives because of tribal reasons, you do business in his land, he even sells land to you which even most SS won't even do, you even hold your traditional festivals in his land which you dare not do in places like kano, you prosper in his land but for some reason you see him as an enemy and turn around calling his land "no man's land".....

Igbos should really look inwards and refine somethings about themselves, there's a reason for the hate you get in South Africa, Ghana, Guinea and even your SS cousins...apart from this I hope they produce a credible leader come 2023 that would push for restructuring.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_odAy4rVz8

2 Likes

Politics › Re: I Am Not Igbo - Wike Clarifies Confusion About His Name And Link To Igbo by samuk: 10:23pm On Nov 12, 2020*

Igboid:
Azikiwe reeled out the names of his ancestors from Ezechima to his father Chukwuemeka.
Did you see a single Bini name in that genealogy?

Moreover the Bini origin of Onitsha is a dead story now. The Onitsha royalty as represented by Igwe Achebe no longer hold that view. History is dynamic.
Onitsha are also proud Igbos today.

Between Igwe Achebe's yesterday story and Zik's grandmother's yesteryear story which is more credible considering the current political dynamics and geographical location Igwe Achebe finds himself.

Zik's grandmother stressed that Chime was a Benin prince, he carried the Benin royal blood, nobody can be more Benin than that. It may interest you to know that some of the names considered Igbo names today such as, Amadin, ugo, Eze, Okoro and the name of Onitsha must revered shrine Udo were all ancient Benin names, people and places still bear these names in Benin.

The present Igbo land was actually part of old Benin empire.

The fact that the white Americans are proud to be Americans doesn't deny them their various European heritages and lineages.

3 Likes

Politics › Re: I Am Not Igbo - Wike Clarifies Confusion About His Name And Link To Igbo by samuk: 9:59pm On Nov 12, 2020

Igboid:
Ehm.
Do you have any other rational explanation on how a Bini people lost their Bini language totally without a single trace of Bini name, word or culture remaining, while they adopted a corrupted version of Igbo language, names and culture without Igbos colonising or ruling them?

How did the Onitsha people lost their Benin language and Benin names.

Hear Dr Nnamdi Azikiwe on Onitsha Benin history.

Nnamdi Azikiwe: My Genealogy and Nativity

"Thus, in tracing my paternal lineage, I could say that both parents of my father are direct descendants of Eze Chima. As for me, I can trace my paternal ancestry in this wise: I am the first son of Chukwuemeka, who was the third child and first son of Azikiwe, who was the second son of Molokwu, who was the third son of Ozomaocha, who was the second son of Inosi Onira, who was the fourth son of Dei, the second son of Eze Chima, the founder of Onitsha."
SOURCE - Nnamdi A zikiwe: My Odyssey, Chapter I (Spectrum Books, 1970) "My Genealogy and Nativity" p4
http://nigeriavillagesquare.com/forum/main-square/75723-meaning-history-onitsha.html

"I can trace my maternal ancestry thus: I am the first son of Nwanonaku Rachel Chinwe Ogbenyeanu (Aghadiuno)Azikiwe, who was third daughter of Aghadiuno Ajie, the fifth son of Onowu Agbani, first daughter of Obi Udokwu, the son who descended from five Kings of Onitsha. Five of these rulers of Onitsha were direct lineal descendants of Eze Chima, who led his warrior adventurers when they left Benin to establish the Onitsha city state in about 1748 AD.
" SOURCE - Nnamdi Azikiwe: My Odyssey, Chapter I (Spectrum Books, 1970) "My Genealogy and Nativity" p5

"One day I asked her (grandmother) the meaning of the word 'Onitsha'. She explained that it had historical significance. The terminology meant one who despised another. It is a contraction of two words, Onini to despise, and Ncha meaning others. So that the two words when joined together mean one who despises others. Then I asked her why we despised others. She patted me on the back and told me that it was due to our aristocratic background and tradition. I insisted that she should explain to me the basis of this supercilious social attitude. She told me that we despised others because we descended from the Royal House of Benin and so regarded ourselves as the superiors of other tribes who had no royal blood in their veins, "

"I continued to belabor my grandmother to tell me more of the history and origins of the Onitsha people. She narrated that many many years ago, there lived at Idu (Benin) a great Oba who had many children. Due to a power struggle regarding the right of precedence among princes of the blood and other altercations, there was a civil war in Benin. One day, the supporters of one of the princes insulted and assaulted Queen Asije, the mother of of the Oba of Benin, who was accused of having trespassed on their farmland. Enraged at this evidence of indiscipline and lawlessness, the Oba ordered his war chief and brother, Gbunwala Asije to apprehend and punish the insurgents. In the attempt to penalise them, Chima, the ultimate founder of the Onitsha city-state, a prince of the blood in his own right, led the recalcitrants against his Uncle, Gbunwala. This intensified the civil war which rent the kingdom of Benin in two and led to the founding of Onitsha Ado N'Idu, , " "As the great trek from Benin progressed, some did not have the stout heart of the pioneer-warrior, and decided to settle at different places, known today as Onitsha -Ugbo, Onitsha-Olona, Onitsha-Mili, Obior, Issele Ukwu, Ossomari, Aboh, etc,
" SOURCE - Nnamdi Azikiwe: My Odyssey, Chapter I (Spectrum Books, 1970) "My Genealogy and Nativity" p 11 - 12

3 Likes

Politics › Re: I Am Not Igbo - Wike Clarifies Confusion About His Name And Link To Igbo by samuk: 9:53pm On Nov 12, 2020

Misterdhee1:
Maybe they actually prefer to be dominated by Hausa/Fulanis than to be dominated by Igbos. It's glaring.

Where did Ikwerre is not Igbo mean calling for Hausa domination, you see why groups such as Ikwerre should be careful about replacing one dominant political group with another.

So the Igbo interest in Ikwerre is for political domination, good thing people like Wike saw the handwriting on the wall and kicked against it.

1 Like

Politics › Re: I Am Not Igbo - Wike Clarifies Confusion About His Name And Link To Igbo by samuk: 9:20pm On Nov 12, 2020

izunned:
Yesooo they are not Igbo, they are Fulani. Please go and check what is dialect before you continue your mumu talk.
Aboki will continue to use and dump you until your senses are back. See Peter Odili and Amaechi so that they will tell you waitin dey.
Can't you see that trickishly, they have captured Imo State and divided it into Emirates.
Continue until you have Ikwere emirate or mile 4 emirate...
What we over here is dragging is so useless.

Claiming Ikwerre is Igbo is an extension of colonial mentality. The British came and merged formerly independent kingdoms and empire together without their consent or agreement and named them Nigeria. The people are still suffering the effects of this forced marriage or amalgamation.

Following on from the British colonial experiment, Nigeria early political actors started bringing groups together to form larger tribes for their own political interest. Majority of those that are loosely referred to Hausa today are not really Hausas but former independent tribes that were forcibly conquered by the northern political forces, even when these tribes protests not to be Hausas, no one is really interested. The Yoruba have been more successful compared to the Igbos.

The Igbos are having serious problems in building a larger political conglomerate comparable to the Hausa and the Yoruba because of several factors, firstly the lost of the civil war took the shine of the Igbo identity and secondly some of the tribes they are trying to annexed have links with the classical Benin empire and histories spanning hundreds of years. These tribes have become distinctive and independent under the Benin empire and don't see the need to give up their proud heritage and acquire a new Igbo identity that is much younger than theirs.

The Igbos don't currently offer or have enough incentives for these tribes to want to lose their identity for the larger Igbo political interest. The Hausa and Yoruba have ensured that Igbo remained politically irrelevant since the end of the civil war, the Igbos are still being seen as losers by the wider Nigeria.

Some of the champions of these larger tribes are those whose tribes didn't archive much in the past and are now trying to hide under a larger group identity to lord it over those with princely heritage. Awolowo who probably did more than any other to unite the Yorubas was from Ijebu subgroup of the Yoruba, before the creation of one Yoruba conglomerate, history records the Ijebus as the tribe the Benin people preferred as sacrifices to their river gods. Whilst the Ijesha was sacrificed by the Ife people.

Today's Hausa, Yoruba and Igbo are all artificial polical creations just like Nigeria herself with little or no historical heritage links between the people that make up these groups or the various tribes that agreed to the groups identify.

7 Likes

Politics › Re: I Am Not Igbo - Wike Clarifies Confusion About His Name And Link To Igbo by samuk: 8:40pm On Nov 12, 2020*

Obi1kenobi:
I don't quite get Dele Momodu's line of questioning. Who are the "they" he's referring to that are angry Wike is denying his Igboness? Random social media accounts? Should that be a basis for substantive discourse? It seems many outsiders like Momodu and all those mastuurbating on this thread love to fan this conflict between Igbos and Igboid groups in the SS. And our SS Igboid brethren never fail to disappoint in taking the bait to express their well-cultivated Igbophobia - making themselves useful idiots to the agenda of those who would seek to divide us from pursuing common interests. Many Igbos also act like idiots and take the bait everytime these topics come on. Why do you care whether Ikwerres or Ukwuanis or Ikas or whoever assert their independence? Why choose to attract their resentment and Igbophobic insults by engaging in the pettiness?

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