₦airaland Forum

Obalatule:
You are the definition of pain and insecurity, Bini is a Yoruba sub-tribe even your Oba acknowledged this publicly


Do you guys really need to always put yourselves through this painful trashing at the hands of the yorubas all the time?

Please go and call Tao and hide yourself somewhere, I have no time for novice and upstart like you.

Obalatule:
What a joker!!.....Bini founded The Americas as well

Bini founded all these places and couldn't rise beyond its current status of minority among minority tribes chai

Go and hide somewhere. Tao your master has been challenged to historical contest. If you don't have anything meaningful to contribute please park to one side.

IDENNAA:
If you like post any senseless material all you like but you have no single evidence that Bini was not a chiefdom. You never built an empire and as time goes you will get this. By the way , you Bini practiced our four market days yet you spoke Bini. Issele Ukwu are eternally Igbo and there is nothing you nor them can do about it....lmao. They are becoming even more centrally Igbo as we speak. Give up!

Benin can't prevent anyone from telling their history and practising their culture. There is nothing you or even Benin can do about ISSELE-UKU claiming Benin. Learn to live with it.

IDENNAA:
So, Bini people founded Asaba and Onicha...lmao. If you like send Ambassador to moon but you can't grow taller than you are. Asaba and Onicha has absolutely nothing in common with you Bini. Not in culture, in looks, in language or any danm thing. These places even the inferior Ikwerre are traditionally Igbo in all ramifications. You are a Yoruba sub tribe!

This one is in severe pain.

TAO11:
Great!
cc: Balogunodua

There is absolutely no basis to compare historical achievements of Benin to Yoruba.

Benin historical achievements and accomplishments are not in the same class with that of Yoruba.

If you think there is, we can start the debate and I will allow you to choose the timeline we will start from and all evidence from both of us will be based on eyewitness accounts of each period not some interpretations of events or artworks or text which can be disputed with other interpretation of the same events.

I suggest we start from the 1400s but if you think we can go earlier than this dates, you are welcome. Each kingdom, town or place have to be specifically named. Ife has to be Ife, Benin has to be Benin, Oyo has to be Oyo and Ijebu has to be Ijebu or something close enough that there will be no doubt that the text or name refers to such place.

No myths is allowed.

I will allow you to access historical materials of all Yoruba kingdoms in support of your arguments against Benin.

Other Yorubas are allowed to help you out.

Let the debate begin.

Please choose you timeline and present your Yoruba historical achievements for debate.

Bonus: I am ready to offer you $1000 if you are able to provide eyewitness written historical accounts of Benin/Ife relationship earlier than 1800s.

Please don't keep waiting for too long because I have other important things to do.

IDENNAA:
Point of correction, the chiefdom never extended beyond Bini. As for center of civilization, it's an insult.

Unfortunately for people like you, Benin had already made history and it was documented, there is nothing you guys can do about it. No amount of recent fabrications can change the past. All we need to do is dig into the past to cure your ignorance.

Enjoy the Ine festival of ISSELE-UKU people of Delta state.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E56N6E0Lns8

Abovebonny:
I'm sorry but this is a gross misunderstanding of history, I have read both books and neither of them make reference to Igbo's being under the thumb of the Benin Kingdom.

Asaba lies on the West Bank of the Niger River, and is the largest Igbo town across the Niger.
This means that Asaba is close to the Benin boarder, yet they were never ruled by any Oba and remained an independent Igbo community.
Which part of Igboland did Benin rule? Enugu? Owerri? please talk with historical facts and stop making historically inaccurate claims.

I am aware of Igbo migrations into the Delta and Benin areas, but that is not what we are discussing.

SO Benin and The British Empire are on the same level in terms of empire? since you think size does not matter?
Before The British Empire do you think the small Kingdoms which existed in England were called empires?
The Kingdoms of Wessex, Mercia, Kent, Northumbria etc all existed within Britain at one time... even when all these kingdoms came together to form England, England was still a kingdom.
When England, Scotland, Wales & Ireland became one state, it was still referred to as the "United Kingdom" as it is today.
It wasn't until Britain conquered other nations such as: Nigeria, India, Australia, South Africa, Canada etc that it became THE BRITISH EMPIRE.... so yes size does matter!

Its very simple to understand, in Nigeria there existed small kingdoms such as Benin, Oyo, Nri, Hausa and so forth. The only empire to exist in Nigeria was the Sokoto Caliphate.


Controlling trade in an area does not make you an empire, the Arochukwu-confederation had a monopoly on trade in the east yet no educated person would consider them an empire.

There is no shame in being referred to as a kingdom, all major states and empires began as kingdoms. Benin is one of the kingdoms which make up the state of Nigeria, the same way Wales is one of 4 kingdoms which make up the United Kingdom.... very simple logic to understand.

Asaba in Delta, Onitsha in Anambra, Ikwerre in Rivers, Igede in Benue are few examples of places founded by Benin people.

Below is the oldest eyewitness written historical account of Asaba. in 1875. if you have an older written account to debunk my claim, provide it. the Benin kingdom/empire was far greater than most of you can ever imagined. Those of you that actually know will not admit to it due to inferiority complex.

In case you missed it, it clearly says Asaba history says, they migrated under the sovereignty of the Oba of Benin due to war.

By 16th century (500 years ago) Benin already sent an ambassador to Lisbon in Europe, something no African kingdom/empire had done till then.

Obalatule:
lol.....provide evidence of Bini rulership over this places or crawl back to your Bini land cursed with eternal violence

No part of Ekiti was spared the agony of imperialist invasions…The rampaging Benin armies sacked Ogotun, Aramoko, some subordinate communities of Ijero, Ado communities such as Are, Afao, Ugbo (now Ilu) Omoba and Agbado and settled a large percentage of the haul of captives therefrom in Ikere, their garrison post.


Benin armies constantly waged wars of external aggressions on Ekitiland and other communities in different parts of old Ondo State in their quest for territorial expansion and control, among others. A good reference point is the Ado-Ikere relations that resulted to Benin pillage and attacks on Ado-Ekiti on several occasion. Olomola (1984:2-3) noted that Benin armies invaded parts of Ado kingdom a few times between 1500 and 1815.. Olomola further asserted that the Ewi actually devise a strategy of evacuating his capital city so that the Benin armies would not disturb the Ewi and the rest of his people in their new site.
Odo which was, before the Benin invasion a town of considerable size, broke up as the people sought the safety of rocky and forest recesses and Uyin and Igede lost part of their population in their fight against Benin in 1815.

The development of the Ado Kingdom was seriously affected by external invasion. These resulted in series of demographic upheavals with settlements constantly moved from one site to another. The most serious of these external invasions were by the "Edo" of Benin. They attacked and destroyed many settlements…in the Ado Kingdom… The Edos were invited by Ogoga, the third time the Edos were so invited to settle the quarrel between Ado and Ikere. The line of action they resolved to adopt was to bring all the villages under the ewi to Ikere, settle them there and in this way Ikere would be equal or even bigger than Ado. Ado would then be afraid of Ikere. The Benin soldiers came and sent words to the Ewi Aroloye… He refused to surrender. He did not in any way show that he was not ready for fight. Every town or village under him except Ijan were prepared to fight…


Every town or village under him (Ewi) except Ijan were prepared to fight… The Benin soldiers stormed Igbara-Odo and Ilawe and took them. At this time, Ado town had been vacated. Aroloye took the people to a place called Oke Oko Axis between Ifaki and Iworoko. Most of the gods Ado worshipped on that side: Olua at Eyio, Obanifon at Esure and Are, Ogbese and Orisala at Iworoko. The soldiers pitched their camps near Uyin (Iyin)…Ogbesi Okun, the then Oluyin …was conquered and killed. They proceeded to Igede, Awo and Esure and took them. The inhabitants of Igede then uder Okiribiti were driven in a north-easternly direction to a place called Oke Asha…Edo troops then marched to Iworoko…The soldiers entered Are…The same fate befell Afao. They were all taken to Ikere. The soldiers moved to Igbemo …entered Igbo-Omoba (now Ilu-Omoba)…The soldiers left Aisegba for Agbado and without delay took it and evacuated the people. Agbado was the last place under the Ewi. With the conquest, of Agbado, the soldiers seemed to have finished their job…’

Ewi Idagunmodo (1696-1710), Ewi Okinbaloye Aritawekun (1710-1722), Ewi Amono Ola (1722-1762), Ewi Afunbiowo (1762-1781), Ewi Akulojuorun (1781-1808), Ewi Aroloye (1808-1836) who reigned at Ado but were attacked successively by Benin hordes…‘During the reign of Ewi Aroloye, Ado-Ewi’s kingdom witnessed massive dislocation across the terrain as town dwellers and villagers ran for safety in different directions. Many of the captives from Iworoko, Are, Afao, Ugboomoba (now Ilumoba) and Agbado were taken to Ukere by Benin invaders’."

Obalatule:
lol.....provide evidence of Bini rulership over this places or crawl back to your Bini land cursed with eternal violence

An editorial by a renowned Yoruba professor and historian.

Vanguard (Lagos)
EDITORIAL
July 7, 2004
Posted to the web July 7, 2004

The origin of the Benin and Yoruba empires of old have come to the fore and they have been subject of intense debate.
No doubt the origins of the two empires are obscure being deeply buried in legend and mythology and it is not easy to say what amount of history or the amount of embellished history they contain. In truth these traditions which on the surface try to account for the origin of these empires are perhaps little more than ideological chatters legitimizing the political systems, traditions, cultures, etc. of the people. This general position not withstanding, it is worthy of note that the Benin through their well renowned Arts and Craft recorded their history and event in addition to the account of the guild of oral recorders. The most contentious of this debate for now, however, is the Benin-Ife historical connection.

Many historians and social anthropologists especially the Yoruba historians have been greatly impressed by the tradition that the Yoruba Kingdom fathered the second Benin empire. According to Prof. A.B.Aderibigbe, "obviously there is an attempt in this story to gloss over what in fact was an alien imposition." Along the same line, Prof Michael Growder said that this tradition could be "a convenient legend to disguise what in fact was a conquest by the Oduduwa party".

Here however, the following points are worthy of note: First the Ife-Benin connection has been vigorously questioned by Prof. A.F.C. Ryder. He had pointed out that this tradition which seeks to connect Benin with Ife is suspect. He argues that throughout four centuries of contact between Benin and various European nations, in particular Portugal, there was no hint or reference to this relationship between the two empires. The tradition was not mentioned or recorded by any writer until after the British occupation of Benin in 1897. He also pointed out that the city of Ife is believed to be younger than Benin and therefore could not have fathered the second Benin Empire.

Second, according to Prof Ryder, by 1485 Benin was an impressive and large city. Judging by the evidence of European visitors, it was perhaps the largest and most impressive city which the Portuguese saw along the west coast of Africa. Recent archaeological evidence would seem to indicate that Ife was built probably not before the first decade of the 16th century while the capital of old Oyo, Yatenga, was built much later. This would seem to show that the complex political system of the Yoruba which the Benin Kingdom is believed to have descended must have originated much later than the Benin Kingdom.

Third, much of the evidence which is believed to corroborate the claims made in the traditions comes from enthnohistory, that is, historical speculations based on assumed logical sequence of development in the political system. This is most unreliable.

By the 15th Century, the Benin Kingdom had achieved the height of its greatness. It remained the most powerful and the largest Kingdom in the forest region of West Africa until about the end of the first half of the 17 century. During these two centuries of its ascendancy Benin empire stretched as far west as Lagos, Badagry and Whyidah (Dahomey). On the north-west it stretched as far as Ekiti, Akure and Owo. Towards the north, it stretched to Ishan Country and the southern position of Idah. Finally on the east it incorporated at various times various portions of Ika-Ibo and as far as the River Niger.

Prof. Biobaku has suggested that the eastern fringe of what is now Yorubaland was in pre-Yoruba days thinly inhabited by the ancestors of the modern Benin people, a people which he called the Efa. And if recent archaeological evidence would seem to indicate that Ife was built not before the first decade of the 16th century thereby making it to be younger than Benin, then the Oranmiyan tradition has been miscon-strued and the Benin version (The Oba of Benin's version,), not Egharervba's version, becomes more tenable.

Abovebonny:
Look at the map again, left of Benin it says Yoruba and this represents the Oyo Kingdom which was clearly much larger & had greater influence. The Yorubas influence stretched as far west as Ghana, hence the Ga people who are directly related to the Yorubas.

The Yorubas engaged in far more conflict than Benin. Although Benin had a large army they never put it into action like the Hausas or Yorubas did. Even the Different Igbo tribes were constantly at war with their neighbours and with each other. Benin is very ancient yes, but not very formidable in terms of conquest.

Below is how the Alaafin of Oyo described the Oba of Benin in time past.

The Alaafin in 1911 seems to have provided his own idea of the power the kings of Benin had once held, from an African (Oyo Yoruba) perspective.

Anyway, the statement from Clapperton:

1. "In the evening we had a visit from the king (Alaafin of Oyo), to thank me for the presents I had given him, and again to assure me of being welcolme; said that he wanted nothing, unless it was something that would speedily cause the submission of the rebels. He said that he had sent to his friend the king of Benin for troops to assist him in the war."

- Hugh Clapperton, Journal of a Second Expedition Into the Interior of Africa, from the Bight of Benin to Soccatoo


2. "The kingdom of Benin was so powerful that the Alafin of Oyo, the head of the Yoruba people, told a British governor that even his predecessors had to pay tribute to its king." - Asibong Akpan Okon, The evolution of self-government of Nigeria (1955), p. 36

Asibong Okon was referring to this:

"This Kingdom of Benin was at one time so powerful that the Alafin of Oyo, the head of the Yoruba people, told me that even his predecessors had to pay tribute to its King." - United Empire, Volume 2 (1911), p. 620

https://books.google.com/books?newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&id=AE45AQAAMAAJ&dq=predecessors+pay+tribute

gregyboy:
This one go pain am

Don't mind the coward, always hiding behind a woman's backside.

They tried to first rubbish the guy as Biafra Ipob until he told them he was not only Ijebu but from the royal lineage, something probably alien to these dullard who want to teach the Awujale of Ijebu who has been on his throne since 1960, before most of them were born his history. What a pretentious hubris.

Balogunodua:
The miscreant is back....

You can't expect much from a dullard other than a one liner. Convince your fellow Yoruba Ijebu first that they are Oduduwa before trolling Benin. Always hiding behind a woman's back, coward.

gregyboy:
Let him speak is mind and fight for his people , edo miscreant kill you there nonsense

According to tollyboy5

Toa111 is an amazing dullard

It goes to show that not all Yoruba people buy the Oduduwa myth crap, tollyboy5 really took the amazing dullard to cleaners with his submissions.

It's very satisfying to know that she couldn't even fool all her Yoruba people with her copy and paste nonsense.

Just imagine someone that have not be able to convince her fellow Yoruba that they are from Ife is trying to convince the Benin, oya agbi idiot.

I hope her gullible and ignorant Igbo students are reading all these.

TAO11:
We don’t do that here.

We deal with evidence here.

Otherwise, super-stories will be flying around back and forth just like the one you just made-up here.

Because you’re probably a new-comer to fact and evidence, I will pardon you. No go into the world and sin no more.

We are still waiting for your pre-1800s eyewitness historical accounts/evidence of Benin/Ife relationship.

We are still waiting for your evidence that the name, Yarriba or Yoruba referred to the people of south Western Nigeria pre-1800.

Like you have been lectured by an Ijebu indigine with royal lineage, tollyboy5, the Ijebus don't believe in your Oduduwa/Ife/Olofin or Olodo CRAP.

It's only those descendants of freed slaves who were amalgamated with natives like the Ijebus and Oyo that parrot the Ife/Oduduwa political fallacy because they have lost their roots.

tollyboy5:
Let me pitch my tent here. This na two illusionist that don't know who their ancestors were. Awon sky babies

Stay tuned and enjoy yourself because Oduduwa is a myth that climbed down from the sky with a golden chain. Thank God the Awujale of Ijebu doesn't buy this rubbish.

PS: To claim your kingdom is great is one thing. But to claim your kindgom is greater than others’ is a separate claim entirely.

It is for this second type of claims that I often bring up relative comparisons, such as in my screenshot below, from the same pre-1897 observers.

Only someone with half a brain can reason like the above.

Rome, Greece and Egypt can't be compared to Washington DC today but in time past, long before Christopher Columbus great great grand parents were born or long before the birth of the USA, Rome, Greece and Egypt were all best cities in the world, but how do you even expect someone whose history began in 1808 to know all these.

By mid-1800s, Benin was already in decline and the city was eventually saked and burnt to the ground in 1897.

Anyone arguing that Benin didn't once owned Lagos is deluded.

Benin City was once a city that was incomparable to any other in West Africa that is why the European called it a city, there is no any other place in the whole of West Africa visited by early European that earned the name City

In the whole of Africa, less than four cities where considered Cities in ancient times and Benin was the only one in West Africa but you can't compare Benin city to Abuja or Lagos today because things changes with time.

Benin history is in the same class as Egypt, Rome and Greek. Show us pre-1800s prove that Benin/Ife had relationship, I may start taking you guys seriously. Show us the monuments or other historical landmarks left behind by ancient Ife. Not insults or is it insults your ancestors left behind.

It's good the Benin are keeping the Yoruba busy. The Yoruba have absolutely nothing to offer.

When the Oba of Benin sent an ambassador to Europe in the 16th century, they were preparing and warming up to start sending themselves to the cotton fields of Europe and America.

Until they show me the equivalent of Bight of Benin, Benin moat and republic of Benin in their history, it will be a complete waste of my time condescending to their level to start discussing amala and ewedu history because they have no history.

Benin history is on the same level as Greek, Rome and Egypt. Yoruba has nothing to showcase apart from lies.

If they show us any eyewitness written historical accounts about Benin/Ife relationship earlier than 1800s, I will start taking them seriously again but until then, they will remain noise makers with absolutely nothing to point to.

Anybody can claim anything because talk is cheap. show us some accomplishments from your past or are these too much to ask?

1. You claimed to have given Benin Oba, yet your own Oba couldn't accomplished anything.

2. You claimed to teach Benin Bronze casting, yet you hardly have a fraction of Benin Bronze.

Yoruba lies are for the gullible like themselves.

davidmarker:
A long time ago, I stopped responding that retarded person because after proving a bunch of his lies to be lies, the troll would only come back with an even longer write-up made up of even more obvious lies. Just wasting your time even more.

You guys have time discussing history with those whose history began in 1808 when the white man amalgamated former slaves with south western natives.

Great Benin should be discussed alongside other greats such as Greek, Egypt, Rome etc. Not those who have nothing from their past to showcase other than insults.

Were is Bight of Ife?, the country that bears Ife? Ife historical monuments such the Benin moat?

Absolutely nothing but insults upon insults.

TAO11:
What!? These kids’ (@samuk and @AreaFada2) small tribe syndrome is this deep to the point of falsely claiming the Ga people of Ghana too ??

Wonderful!

Anyways, the embedded image below shows the statements and testimony of King Nii Adama Latse himself:

www.nairaland.com/attachments/12780761_1808c041a6984469be0efdb384cfc23d_jpeg_jpeg6fee1dfb8de315cda592b9c257072bb1

The link to the Ghanaian Media Source is also as pasted below:

https://www.gbcghana.com/kitnes/cache/pages/id/www/1.9603545/1.htm

Let’s see if their standard of allowing people decide who they are would be respected at this juncture, or their small tribe syndrome delusion would kick in.

I’m glad people like myself are still around to make you all popular on Nairaland for the real deluded mythomaniacs that you all are.

cc: Afam4eva, Juliusmalema, RedboneSmith, macof, LegendHero, scholes0, gomojam, Barbilius, babtoundey, Balogunodua, geosegun, Kirigidi, duruZed, Ofunwa111, Alba3, Sepukku

Keep trolling Benin for relevance, when the Benin are pointing to the achievements and accomplishments of their forefathers, you have nothing but insults to point to. Your insults are nothing but rantings of disgruntled under achievers.

Below are some of the permanent reminders to great Benin achievements and accomplishments. All former Benin descendants are now retracing their roots back home. Even the Yoruba are finding ways to attached themselves to Benin. Why wouldn't the average Benin person feel PROUD.

1. Those that can afford to travel outside Nigeria are always reminded of Benin greatness when they flyover the Bight of Benin, if the pilot doesn't announce it, it is displayed of the flights geographical location.

Where is Ife River or Bight of Ife located?

2. The Europeans daily marvelled at thousands of great Benin artworks across Europe, America and Asia Museums. They have become a permanent ambassadors and reminder of our greatness.

3. The Benin moat once appeared in the Guinness book of world records as the greatest man made structure on earth. At the time it was built, there was nothing in Europe and America to compare it with.

Where is Ife wall or moat or have any Ife achievements beat world records.

4. Benin Republic, a country claimed to have Yoruba descendants have to choose Benin after bight of Benin as a name for their country. What greater honour could there be.

Where is the country named after Ife?

Apart from ranting on the internet, there is absolutely nothing of international worth to point to.

They relishes the fact that the Benin even allowed themselves to be mentioned side by side with them. These people history started in the 1800s after the creation on Yoruba in 1808 for crying loud.

Benin history has nothing in common with these guys who are still under the spiritual leadership of the Sultan of Sokoto.

The question is after the abolition of slavery and creation of Yoruba in 1808 by the white man to accommodate free slaves and natives, are these people spiritually freed?

Where is the role of the Ooni in their spiritual life?

Those that have nothing to show as historical achievements always pick on those above them to shine. You will hardly see Yoruba debate history with any other tribes in Nigeria, they only troll Benin for relevance.

gregyboy:
The mouth of a coward is like a two head sword
If talk could win wars i bet the yorubas would have made history in the past instead of stealing one today

Wow. This people already wake in the morning and realised their ancestors achieved nothing of note in history and you are just rubbing salts to their injuries.

1. Those that can afford to travel outside Nigeria are always reminded of Benin greatness when they flyover the Bight of Benin, if the pilot doesn't announce it, it is displayed of the flights geographical location.

Where is Ife River or Bight of Ife located?

2. The Europeans daily marvelled at thousands of great Benin artworks across Europe, America and Asia Museums. They have become a permanent ambassadors and reminder of our greatness.

3. The Benin moat once appeared in the Guinness book of world records as the greatest man made structure on earth. At the time it was built, there was nothing in Europe and America to compare it with.

Where is Ife wall or moat or have any Ife achievements beat world records.

4. Benin Republic, a country claimed to have Yoruba descendants have to choose Benin after bight of Benin as a name for their country. What greater honour could there be.

Where is the country named after Ife?

Apart from ranting on the internet, there is absolutely nothing of international worth to point to.

They relishes the fact that the Benin even allowed themselves to be mentioned side by side with them. These people history started in the 1800s after the creation on Yoruba in 1808 for crying loud.

Benin history has nothing in common with these guys who are still under the spiritual leadership of the Sultan of Sokoto.

The question is after the abolition of slavery and creation of Yoruba in 1808 by the white man to accommodate free slaves and natives, are these people spiritually freed?

Where is the role of the Ooni in their spiritual life?

Those that have nothing to show as historical achievements always pick on those above them to shine. You will hardly see Yoruba debate history with any other tribes in Nigeria, they only troll Benin for relevance.

Bigsunny01:
At least we have all hear from de horses mouth

So all de argument and tribal war has to stop

I see know reason why some tribe will come here and keep arguing what dey don know of, we all no were we came from

They are jealous.

AreaFada2:
The convener get oil for head. Very scientific. Thank God he sabi SW well well. He has binned Kanu and ikanye goons with aplomb. All. Need to come out soon. No hiding again. Nothing nobody can do to prevent it. Ga people may storm next.

Over fifty tribes up to Ghana claims Benin ancestry, it's about time for reunification. After over 100 years of the destruction of Benin and forceful claims of her people by Igbo and Yoruba, these people are beginning to fight back and establishing links to their ancestral land.

ISSELE-UKU celebrates Ine festival and their affinity with the Benin Kingdom.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E56N6E0Lns8

AreaFada2:
The minute Ikwerre associate with Benin in any form, both East and West begin to attack them. It's no secret.

I can see so many tribes following this example in the nearest future. I am very proud that I did suggested this and few other things to the convener of great Benin descendants earlier this year. There are a lot going on in the background.

AreaFada2:
If you cannot go back and look then you are not ready. Every idiot and his dog who follows my writing here should already know. No provocation will make me repeat myself a hundredth time of meaning of Oba.

My brother, thanks to early Europeans, Benin history is well insulated from fabrications up till 1808 when Yoruba was created by the white man and their history started proper. Any part of Benin history earlier than 1800s cannot be touched or forged by those that fabricate history.

Imagine if Benin history have no written eyewitness accounts, they would have told us it didn't exist. They would have shoved the Benin/Ife relationship lies down our throats.

Thank God all their lies ends in the 1800s. Benin history from 1400s to 1799 are all protected and insulated from fabrications. I wonder how they feel when they wake up in the morning and realised that there is absolutely nothing they can do about it.

RedboneSmith:
Very weird defence.

First, Northcote Thomas was not Igbo and wasn't very fluent in the language, from all indications. He was a British anthropologist. And of all the stories presented so far, his is the only one written by a professional ethnologist. This is an important fact.

Second, you accusing the two Spencers of 'Igbo' bias is ridiculous. Igbo bias and they still acknowledged Igala blood in Asaba? One can actually argue that their fluency in the language of the natives gave them more access to the lore of the people than Crowther ever gained. Field researchers in the social sciences will tell you how important speaking and understanding the language of the research subjects are.

You can't go accusing Igbo-speaking Sierra Leoneans of 'Igbo' bias in 1879 with zero evidence. Other Igbo-speaking Sierra Leoneans of the time that we know about (such as John Christopher Taylor and Solomon Perry) were remarkable detached from the native Igbo population they worked among and felt themselves to be Europeanised black men than anything else.

The fact that the accounts of the Spencers are copious and detailed, mentioning names of culture-heroes and such, and Crowther's is rather an ambiguous one-liner (Yes, it is ambiguous) speaks for itself.

I bet you didn't know that in the 1890s when Nteje was attacked by Abam warriors, it was to Asaba that they fled as refugees, on the basis of kinship. I bet you also didn't know that in the 19th century or slightly later (will have to cross-check the date later), Nteje emissaries went to Asaba to formally ask them to return home. They were welcome by the Asaba peoole, but Asaba people politely declined the offer, stating that they had become too deep-rooted in their 'new' home to just pack up and return.

Are any of your cited references earlier than Bishop Crowder's account?

Anthropologists and echnologist don't work on nothing, they work on the information given to them or found on the ground at the time they start their work. The result of the work largely depends on who gave the information.

These people starts from a base and expands their theories, it's like working from the answer. This is the reason early eyewitness accounts is very important.

Even me reading early Europeans visitors account of Benin do sometimes find it difficult to reconcile it with modern reality because thing changes with time.

Before the war, Ikwerre towns had Igbo names and everyone assumed they were Igbos, after Biafra lost, the names reverted back to Ikwerre names and they are telling everyone who cares to listen that they are not Igbo.

Recent migrant to a place can displace old populations and change the demographic composition of the place beyond recognition. So early eyewitness reports are very important.

You said yourself that there were displaced Igbos who moved to Asaba in the 1890.

RedboneSmith:
Argh! I'm having great difficulty uploading the other versions from 1901 and 1914, which all agree in general (though differ in some specifics) with the 1879 version already uploaded. Repeat: Benin does not feature as a point of origin in any of these versions; and the present generation of Asaba people sure as heck don't make the claim. Will keep trying to upload.

Note: Ntemedsah = Ntemeje =Nteje, a town in present-day Anambra State from which Nnebisi (Nebissi) is said to have hailed. There's still a popular street in Asaba (Nnebisi Road) named after him.


Clarification: I am posting from the paper by Professor Elizabeth Isichei. But concerning the versions of the traditions, they are direct quotations from the original sources (which are fully cited.)

Let's look at the evidences provided.

1. 1875 missionary report by Bishop Crowder who was in Asaba in 1875. Crowder told us that as of 1875 Asaba people who were different in habits from Ibo/Igbo have already been amalgamated with Igbo people, which means Abasa people and Igbo people were leaving together as one. The account of Asaba people, Crowder recorded says they migrated from the sovereign of the Oba of and still retained words and phrases from the Benin language as of 1875 and pays the Oba of Benin great veneration.

2. Bishop Ajayi Crowder was neither Benin nor Igbo and there is no evidence that he speaks Benin or Igbo. One can not see bias either way in his written records.

3. Your later reference claimed to have been written in 1879, 4 years after Crowder visit gave an oral account by an Igbo speaker. Hope you can spot the possible bias.

4. All your other subsequent accounts were given by those who lived amongst Igbo and spoke the Igbo language fluently.

In summary, we have two accounts.

1. From a truly independent eyewitness witness whose account is older being written in 1875.

2. From Igbo speakers irrespective of were they came from.

3. Before you argue that some of these guys were from Sierra Leone, may I quickly remind you that the earliest Yoruba historians like Samuel Johnson who wrote favourably about the Yoruba and Oyo was also from Sierra Leone.

4. Most of these people from Sierra Leone who were mostly freed slaves that found their ways to Nigeria wrote favourable about their adopted part of Nigeria. Though majority of them settled amongst the Yoruba, others found their ways to other parts of Nigeria including Benin City, settled and adopted those places.

5. Benin history suffered this sort of biases from early Yoruba historians like Samuel Johnson but the advantage Benin history have is that such biases can easily be disproved by eyewitness accounts of Europeans who were constant visitors to Benin.

6. You may have seen page 174 of Samuel Johnson, the history of the Yoruba, shared here that seems to fraudulently suggests that Benin was one time under Oyo. Now juxtapose this with the interview of Oba Adolo in 1862 by the English man Bosman which I presented and other earlier European eyewitness records of Benin back to 1472, you will not find any evidence to support Johnson's suggestion.

There was no century from 1400s to 1897 that Benin didn't receive European visitors who recorded what they saw at those times. These early writings insulate Benin history from later years fabrications.

Same reason the Yoruba people is still unable to prove later years Benin/Ife connection fabrication earlier than 1800s.

It's left for others to read both accounts and draw their own conclusions.

TAO11:
Get away from me, you inferiority complex-infested nincompoop.

Your fears and insecurities stink to high heavens — visible to the blind, and audible to the deaf.

I have no business with you. My business is with your history — the fraudulent aspects of it.

Or are you bigger than your history?

This is usually how our engagement always ends with a lot of premium tears from you.

Hope you have thoroughly enjoyed yourself. Those two assignments are now your cross to carry.

Should we meet again you will be reminded if you have proved these simple questions (Yoruba 1808 creation and Benin/Ife relationship early than 1800).

Balogunodua:
Lzaa so Igbo originated from Benin wonderful

Are you serious or just trying to be funny? I can see why AreaFada2 didn't waste his time engaging you. Surely you can't be this ignorant, no, I refuse to believe it.

RedboneSmith:
Chillax. I'll post three entire versions, free of ambiguity. There was a war with Benin in the time of Osemwede (called Osomadi in Asaba traditions). Asaba people fled and later returned to their land, after the army of Benin left (I'll post this too, if I find it.) This whole talk about migrating from sovereignty, etc etc, due to wars, etc...sounds like an allusion to that war in Osemwede's time than to any claim on the part of Asaba to have been of Benin descent.

Northern Nigerians still retain Arabic words, phrases and habits in 2020. Means very little.

The documents had no ambiguity, it was very clear. What about the part that distinguishes Asaba people from Ibo/Igbo people saying they have different habits and that they were amalgamated with Ibo people.

TAO11:
It’s their small tribe syndrome for me.

Benin Reasoning 101 — 912
See, our king drives Bentley.

Wow! That king too drives Bentley.

Hmm! That king originated from Benin kingdom.

Me: Rolls my eyes 360 degrees.

NB: I have never claimed everyone manufactured Benin origin in recent times. There are places like Aboh, many Ika towms, etc that mentioned Benin part- or full-ancestry from their earliest documented traditions. I maintain however that there has been a great expansion of claims of Benin origin in comparatively recent times. Ekpeye, Ikwerre, Etche and even Ohafia claims of Benin recent belong to this latter wave of Benin claims....RedboneSmith

I guess you didn't see the above from RedboneSmith submission. Small tribe that everyone is claiming one way or the other. The Yoruba are not left out of making claims of relationship with Benin. It shows how special we are.

RedboneSmith:
It is somewhat sad that people still do not understand that relationship and ancestry do not mean the same thing. I was really expecting the screenshot to say the ancestors of Asaba came from Benin. It doesn't say that. Of course, there was a relationship between Asaba and Benin. How else do you explain the Benin titles used in Asaba and other cutltural imprints from Benin in and around Asaba?

Let me get on my laptop later, and I will share screenshots of three different versions of Asaba origin collected between 1879 and 1914. All of them agree that the founder or Asaba was Nnebisi from Nteje. One or two also mention an Igala prince who also came and joined Nnebisi's people. None mentions Benin.

NB: I have never claimed everyone manufactured Benin origin in recent times. There are places like Aboh, many Ika towms, etc that mentioned Benin part- or full-ancestry from their earliest documented traditions. I maintain however that there has been a great expansion of claims of Benin origin in comparatively recent times. Ekpeye, Ikwerre, Etche and even Ohafia claims of Benin recent belong to this latter wave of Benin claims.

I'll post the Asaba story when I get home and can use my laptop.

Did you read that document properly? Did you skip where it says that the Asaba people migrated to Asaba from the sovereign of the Oba of Benin due to wars?

Did you read where a clear distinction was made between Asaba people and Ibo/Igbo people of which they were amalgamated?

Did you read were it says Asaba people have different habits from Ibo/Igbo people?

Did you read the part it says the Asaba people still retained Benin words, phrases and habits in 1875?

Did TAO11 borrowed you her lenses?