₦airaland Forum

davidnazee:
Even the early European kings sort approval of their crown from the pope, and they all revered the pope and regarded him as their spiritual leader. Does that mean the pope or Vatican was greater than these European kings or kingdoms?

many of those writers these Yorubas are citing now always noted that Ife was a spiritual place just like the Vatican was to Europe. They never said Ife was an empire or greater than Benin.

The early writers themselves never actually mentioned Ife per say, even Benin never mentioned Ife but Uhe.

The place that was mentioned by early European writers was either a place referred to as Ogane or Uhe.

It was the later day Yoruba influenced historians that stated equating Ogane or Uhe to mean Ife.

You will not find Ife written anywhere in most of the early written accounts of Benin history by Europeans.

MetaPhysical:
Samuk,

Keep your thoughts simple and organized. It looks like you are heated and emotional. Calm down.

You determined that deBarros was not talking about Ooni of Ife in his account, but about a King East of Benin.

How did you determine this? Please share....


Cc
TAO11

Go back and read the source you quoted carefully, it says prince Ogane more than once. Did he mean to say priest of Ogane?

He referred to Ogane as prince more than once and he went on to say, he stays behind a veil and only shows his feet. Prince and king is not the same thing.

The court he referred to could be a shrine or an Oracle.

Yes, I do know a place east of Benin that possibly fits this description and it's not Ife. It's an Edo speaking town.

One of the symbols of this shrine is the cross.

davidnazee:
The only renowned slaves are the Yorubas, so what are you talking about?

He forget that former Yoruba slaves could still be found in Brazil and other Latin America countries.

gregyboy:
Sir we are trying to find our history i would love if you help and dont fight us, yes you can bring point to justify ogene was ife it is stands reasonable we will accept with same or anyway
You can also help us disprove the fact its not nupe or igala it is probably ijaw if it is traceable we all will accept but putting bigotry in it because you are yoruba and you want the story to be told to your own is bigotry and thats what we are fighting you for, atleast if you are not helping us in this but continue to bring point tracing benin to
Ife if it makes sense we will accept thats what scholars do, but in you doing be truthful to yourself and to the answers we give you.. And dont be bigoted minded because of tribe it is funny it was the whitemen who reexamine the history of ife and benin relationship for us but it does not guarantee its validity of truthfulness
But i choozs to carryout more research on it to ascertain the truth

So help us and dont fight us

I believe on humanity before anything

If it was true that the Oba of Benin at anytime in the past sort for validity from any source, the source according to Benin history could have been a deity.

The deity was so held in high reverence that it's often said in Benin that it was because people often give birth to children that will be greater than them, that was the reason God created/gave birth to this deity, meaning that this deity was seen in the past as either on the same level or greater than God. It wasn't human.

The European could have mistaken the high priest of this deity to be a king.

There is still a village close to Benin that is the headquarters of this shrine and deity, they are the only people till date that celebrate the Igue festival before the Oba.

After they celebrate Igue, the Oba, the princes/princess, followed by the rest of Edo people.

You would have probably know the village I am referring to by now.

I don't want to say much before the Yorubas claim it as theirs.

This shrine was similar to the ancient Greek shrine of Delphi.

The ancient Greeks considered the centre of the world to be in Delphi.

It was were everyone including kings in the classical world went to consult the oracle of Appolo.

"Apollo spoke through his oracle. She had to be an older woman of blameless life chosen from among the peasants of the area. Alone in an enclosed inner sanctum (Ancient Greek adyton - "do not enter" she sat on a tripod seat over an opening in the earth (the "chasm"."

The practice is very similar to the source Metaphysical quoted in the other thread.

1486 João de Barros: Pre-Protuguese Christian influence in Benin - Ibid., 126-7

MetaPhysical:
Stop your uncivility on this thread.

The thread is self explanatory.

One of your partners that you have tabled as the early writers of your history and whose accounts is held in high regard said your Oba is a subject of a foreign and greater King to the East.

My quest here is not about Yoruba/Benin....but following logically to what your partner said, who is this Greater King that Oba of Benin gets his authority from in the East?

This is the goal of the thread. If you want to discuss Yoruba/Benin, there are threads for that.

Cc
TAO11

First let us ascertain if the statement itself was true and if so, let search who this king was.

We have already cast doubt and disproved that the king was the Ooni because the evidence so far are too weak to support it.

You have also speculated in the other thread that it could be the Igala king but the Igalas themselves through their historical accounts said it's not their king.

History is not about tribal supremacy but about finding the truth wherever it leads.

The rest of Europe are not ashamed that they were one time colonised and ruled by little Rome.


More on Benin/Igala relationship told by the Igalas themselves. There is also a nollywood movie by Mercy Johnson.

You can find the history and her statue on the internet.

The Legend of Igala Kingdom- Princess In
Princess Inikpi of Kogi

According to historical records, It all started with a war between Benin & the Igala people which caused the land to be unsafe, farmlands were taken over by the enemies and stream been poisoned so that anyone that drank from them would die. Nowhere was safe at all.

The Igalas feared imminent death from starvation and lack of water. When the Atta (King) consulted the oracle, it proclaimed that a reversal of their misfortune and victory in the war could only come when the princess, the only daughter of the king is buried alive. — Princess Inikpi.

Surely, the king was distraught heartbroken and shaded tears. For days, he didn’t eat or drink and he wished for an alternative solution. Of cos, no father would just agree for any of his children to be buried alive not to talk about the only child of the Atta (King).

The princess noticed the worries of her father and asked to know the reason for his sadness. Instead of opening up, he held off telling her the reason for seven days, but on the eighth, he relented and told her the words of the Oracle.

The Princess loved his father and her people as much as they loved her, could not bear the thought of holding off on the solution that would save Igala land. Princess Inikpi did not object, she did not fight. Therefore, she agreed to be sacrificed and set off voluntarily to the bank of River Niger at Idah (some say market square), where she was buried along with 9 slaves who would help her in the journey to the afterlife.



It was a sad resolution but the Igala people hailed her for her heroism. after the sacrifice, the story went on that as the Bini armies advanced to swoop, they saw the whole town in FLAMES and retreated feeling that there was no need taking the war to a place already on fire; but it was the blood of Inikpi that deceived them. However, it was the influence of the sacrifice.

Observance of the role the Princess played in averting disaster in Igala land still represents an important historical event in the life of the igala people. Today, so many people in Idah bear the name Inikpi in honour of the princess.

The sacrifice was a costly one, very expensive indeed, it, however, made peace reign again in Igala land.

Till today, the late Princess Inikpi who was sacrificed so that the Igalas might live remains the unifying factor in Igala land.

For this, the Igala people are forever deeply grateful to Princess Inikpi for her sacrifice and act of heroism. A statue of the princess stands at “Ega” in Idah, which is considered the Igala traditional headquarters. Several plays have also been produced to celebrate her story

gregyboy:
Yea i know this history

Metaphysical is probably not aware of it, he wouldn't have been speculating that Oba of Benin was answerable to Atta of Igala at any time in history.

gregyboy:
Yea

Am doing a research to ascertain if ife really made those art works or it was paid by craft men to do it
Our artwork is totally different fron the ife artwork am doing a research on the various artwork that comes in semblance with the benin artwork in nigeria the closet have seen is igala and nupe artwork

Are you aware some edo tribe are in benue and they also eat poundex yam as thier traditional food usman danfio died in benue but lucky they were later islamized through time tho pocket of local traditions can still be seeing in nupe today

If more research can be done on this areas it will go a long way telling how the benin migrated and were they are from islam really destroyed thier historical records in the north

More on Benin/Igala relationship told by the Igalas themselves. There is also a nollywood movie by Mercy Johnson.

You can find the history and her statue on the internet.

The Legend of Igala Kingdom- Princess In
Princess Inikpi of Kogi

According to historical records, It all started with a war between Benin & the Igala people which caused the land to be unsafe, farmlands were taken over by the enemies and stream been poisoned so that anyone that drank from them would die. Nowhere was safe at all.

The Igalas feared imminent death from starvation and lack of water. When the Atta (King) consulted the oracle, it proclaimed that a reversal of their misfortune and victory in the war could only come when the princess, the only daughter of the king is buried alive. — Princess Inikpi.

Surely, the king was distraught heartbroken and shaded tears. For days, he didn’t eat or drink and he wished for an alternative solution. Of cos, no father would just agree for any of his children to be buried alive not to talk about the only child of the Atta (King).

The princess noticed the worries of her father and asked to know the reason for his sadness. Instead of opening up, he held off telling her the reason for seven days, but on the eighth, he relented and told her the words of the Oracle.

The Princess loved his father and her people as much as they loved her, could not bear the thought of holding off on the solution that would save Igala land. Princess Inikpi did not object, she did not fight. Therefore, she agreed to be sacrificed and set off voluntarily to the bank of River Niger at Idah (some say market square), where she was buried along with 9 slaves who would help her in the journey to the afterlife.



It was a sad resolution but the Igala people hailed her for her heroism. after the sacrifice, the story went on that as the Bini armies advanced to swoop, they saw the whole town in FLAMES and retreated feeling that there was no need taking the war to a place already on fire; but it was the blood of Inikpi that deceived them. However, it was the influence of the sacrifice.

Observance of the role the Princess played in averting disaster in Igala land still represents an important historical event in the life of the igala people. Today, so many people in Idah bear the name Inikpi in honour of the princess.

The sacrifice was a costly one, very expensive indeed, it, however, made peace reign again in Igala land.

Till today, the late Princess Inikpi who was sacrificed so that the Igalas might live remains the unifying factor in Igala land.

For this, the Igala people are forever deeply grateful to Princess Inikpi for her sacrifice and act of heroism. A statue of the princess stands at “Ega” in Idah, which is considered the Igala traditional headquarters. Several plays have also been produced to celebrate her story

MetaPhysical:
No history has ever been written where Ooni is said to be subject of a greater king elsewhere. Never!

There are numerous accounts that say your Oba is subject of a Greater King.

Compare that.


cc
TAO11

Are you still calling on TAO11, have you not done enough damage to the Yoruba arguments/debates.

Have you not realised that all your Yoruba nairaland historians have run away.

Before your intervention, they were all enjoying themselves spewing garbage as history.

MetaPhysical:
The portuguese partner of Benin de Barros said THERE IS A KING, CALLED OGENE WHO IS GREATER THAN THE OBA AND HIS PALACE IS EASTWARD OF BENIN.

This establishes that Oba is a lesser king to someone else who dictates power in Benin. This is clear.

This means Oba is not the greatest king in that region....there was another king greater than him.

Who was this Greater King?

This will not save you from the damaged you have already caused to the Yorubas debates and arguments.

They have all run away from all threads and into hiding because of you.

gregyboy:
Yea he still speaks of the old political myth...

They are so afraid to relearn thats is the problem of the aged people

The Benin people of this generation could all come together to research and author a book into the true Benin/Ife relationship.

Those of us abroad that have access to various museums that host Benin artworks, should continue to study those artworks for what they represent and depict rather than seeing them as some decorative ornament of no significance purpose.

Those artworks were the photographs of their time.

See how you were able to match the artwork that depicts a messager with the people of Nupe/Igala from ther facial tribal mark and disproved it referring to an Ife messager as previously being claimed by the Yorubas.

Numerous Benin artworks could have also depicted various tribes across Nigeria of 15c, 16c 17c and 18 centuries.

We shouldn't just seat back and allow the Yorubas to claim they were the only tribes these artworks represent or depicted.

I am sure Yoruba people would have been depicted in Benin artworks also but we should be able to tell the difference between an artwork showing Yoruba people from Igala and people of old eastern Nigeria.

gregyboy:
More research is going on by me to ascertain if ife and Oduduwa really had a connection if truly they didnt

Argument like who have the word oba
Who gave the word ubini
And so on will be forever settled

Do you know the Portuguese were the original people who had given the name benin to benin" before they arrived to africa they have had account of arabic merchant of a town name birni in the present kebbi state, Birni kebbi then was still a pagan state before our brother usman later converted all the pagan state in the north to islam, ibn buttua had already reported of a powerful pagan town birni kebbi to the Europeans on his venture to africa so Portuguese sailors had later set on a quest to sail to africa to spread Christianity and find Prester peter who had defeated the islamist spread on getting to africa they meant smaller disorganized kingdoms that didn't catch thier interest while they were sailing they meant some benins who were trading at the bight of benin they were well dressed and organized they had to stop to adress the benin people who later took them to the palace when they got to the palace the felt they had gotten to the Kingdom ibn buttua had mentioned birni" language barrier had made them unable to ask the name of the Kingdom they were, overtime time when language barrier was broken and they later knew it wasnt birni like they had thought it was already to late to change it. the name benin had already been imprinted to Europeans as benin city it was hard calling it the new name

This assertion can be proved because non of our neighbors had call us benin if true we had truly bore the name ubini or ile binu so how come it was only the Portuguese we had introduced the name only to, even when we conquered some areas even after the Portuguese arrival they had still maintained the corrupted form of edo( idu, ado)
It also not used in benin lexicon when a benin man identifes himself he identifes as ovbie edo
And never have they identified as ovbie binu " except the Portuguese were only the one who invented the name and had identified edo people as benin people, even without the benin people knowing they were been identified as benins by the Portuguese and not edo as thier name

Ile binu was just a construct by egharevba handwork to link benin with youruba ife people
Ife only became popular in the the early nigeria period as a result of artwork works found in ife it boasted the pretige of ife and it became a bedrock for thier mythology of thier history
Before then ife was not even recognize amongst yoruba at all


The fuuny things in this is our oba will still join them to say all this distorted history


Metaphysical
gomojam
DonCandido
Amujale
macof
Sewgon79
lx3as
Opiletool
nisai
2fine2fast
Aphrygian
Olu317
Obalufon
geosegun

Interesting, where you able to make contact with Imaseun Izoduwa, you seems to have a flare for research, you guys and other Benins here could complement each others.

Poor Yoruba nairalanders, they don't know what has hit them.

gregyboy:
Impact Of Portuguese Diplomacy With Benin
It was the information gathered from the Ohen-Okun of Ughoton in 1486 about the supposedly
legendary Prester John which encouraged the expedition headed by Bartolomew Diaz the following year,
August 1487.
All in all, this first contact with Benin had more than fulfilled Portuguese expectations (Ryder, 1969;
32). The discovery that Africa had a bottom – the Cape of Good Hope – gave great hope to Europe and created
new access to the exotic lands of the East – India, China etc. This discovery enriched Europe, enhanced her
expectations and provided her with a new and more accurate geography of the world. It enabled Europe to break
free from her encirclement by Islam.
Interestingly and unknowingly to the Portuguese, it was a priest around the river benue axis Ohen-Okun talked about in
Lisbon. But his description of the „Oghene‟ and the mention of the maltese cross especially, led the officials in
the Court of John II of Portugal to believe that the Ohen-Okun was describing the Kingdom of Prester John, the
legendary Christian Monarch in Africa. However, history has it that the legendary Kingdom of Prester John was
the ancient Kingdom of Abyssinia - modern - day Ethiopia. Ethiopia is the only Christian state in the Horn of
Africa. She has practised Coptic Christianity since the 4
th century AD, before the birth of Mohammed.
Incidentally, Ethiopia was also one of those two countries (the other being Liberia) in Africa that did not comenot cooperating sufficiently with Portugal on trade-related matters, Benin seemed unperturbed with such an arm￾twisting measure, especially as other Europeans such as the French and the Dutch continued to trade with the
Kingdom (Blake, 1939; 134). But today a ban in trade by one western nation would in all likelihood, result in a total ban by all Western Powers. But on the part of Portugal there was increased frustration as the trade embargo against the Oba only seemed to have highlighted the importance of Benin in the scheme of things. They desperately searched for other markets but agreed that none matched the trade with Benin or could adequately replace it (Blake, 1939;
134). Benin, being a highly centralized kingdom, operated a pattern of trade that favoured external trade relations. When, for instance, the trade in elephant tusks began early in the 16th century, the Oba immediately instituted a guild for the hunting of elephants (Ryder, 1969; 53). That area of Ikpoba Hill in modern Benin City
known as Ore-Ogbeni (meaning the community of elephant hunters) was where the Oba settled this group of hunters, and the trade structure of the state ensured that every single elephant tusk obtained was sold only through the agents of the Oba; this also applied to other commodities of international trade - pepper, stone beads etc.
However, it is uncertain whether it was the difficulties between the Obas and the European meddlers alone that led to the decay of Portuguese trade with Benin in the second half of the 16th century. There was the
view that as many more European Powers broke the Portuguese monopoly of the West Coast trade, there emerged a general decline in Portuguese commerce and therefore power in West Africa. Expectedly, the government in Portugal then decided to concentrate its limited resources to the exploitation of its trade and
possessions in the Indies and Brazil. This shift in trade relations affected her trade not only in marginal areas Like Benin but also in the Island settlements of Principe and Sao Tome (Ryder, 1969; 75).Furthermore, Portugal did not find the trade with Benin as profitable as she had envisaged. Both the land and weather were also hostile and unhealthy for Europeans (Ling Roth, 1968; 5).However, since the economic and political intercourse between Portugal and Benin500 years or more ago, major transformations have evolved in the form of structures and nature of actors in the International System. Monarchs and Emperors have given way to Nation-States as the representatives of their people in International affairs. The monarchy in Portugal has ceased to exist since 1910, has been the case with many
others in Europe at different times in their history. However, the Benin monarchy has survived, not as the political and economic entity it was 500 or more years ago, but rather, as a cultural entity – something fairly
akin to the monarchy in Britain – her former colonizer.
References
[1]. Adeniran .T. (1983); Introduction to International Relations, Lagos Macmillan Nigerian Press Ltd.
[2]. Acemoglu .D. and Robinson .J. (2012); Why Nations Fail, New York Crown Publishing Group.
[3]. Aisien .E. (2001); The Benin City Pilgrimage Stations, Benin City, Nigerian; University of Benin
Printing Press.
[4]. Aisien .E. (2012); Ewuare: The Oba of Benin; Benin City; Nigeria, Mindex Publishing Co. Limited.
[5]. Blake .J. (1939), European Beginnings in West Africa, London Vol. 2, Haluyt Society.
[6]. Brasio .A. (1952); Lisbon: Monumenta Missionaries Vol. I, Africa Ocidental.
[7]. Bradbury R. E. (1957); London: The Benin Kingdom and the Edo Speaking Peoples of South-Western

Nice one, very good.

MetaPhysical:
1486 João de Barros: Pre-Protuguese Christian influence in Benin - Ibid., 126-7

Among the many things which the King D. João learnt from the ambassador of the king of Benin, and also from João Afonso d'Aveiro, of what they had been told by the inhabitants of these regions, was that [b]to the east of Beny at twenty moons' journey which according to their account, and the short journeys they make, would be about two hundred and fifty of our leauges there lived the most powerful monarch of these parts, who was called Ogané. Among the pagan chiefs of the territories of Beny he was held in as great veneration as is the Supreme Pontif with us. In accordance with a very ancient custom, the king of Beny, on ascending the throne, sends ambassadors to him with rich gifts to announce that by the decease of his predecessor he has succeeded to the kingdom of Beny, and to request confirmation. To signify his assent, the prince Ogané sends the king a staff and a headpiece of shining brass, fashioned like a Spanish helmet, in place of a crown and sceptre. He also sends a cross, likewise of brass, to be worn round the neck, a holy and religious emblem similar to that worn by the Knights of the Order of Saint John. Without these emblems the people do not recognize him as lawful ruler, nor can he call himself truly king. All the time this ambassador is at the court of Ogané, he never sees the prince, but only the curtains of silk behind which he sits, for he is regarded as sacred. When the ambassador is leaving, he is shown a foot below the curtains as a sign that the prince is within and agrees to the matters that he has raised; this foot they reverence as though it were a sacred relic.[/b] As a kind of reward for the hardships of such a journey the ambassador receives a small cross, similar to that sent to the king, which is thrown round his neck to signify that he is free and exempt from all servitudes, and privileged in his native country, as the Knights are with us.


cc
TAO11

Are you aware that your TAO11 you are copying and calling has already argued in the opposite direction of your copy and paste source in another thread.

TAO11 account of what you just posted is in the opposite, he argued and provided evidence that it was the Oba of Benin that gave out the cross necklace to the messagers and not your Ogane prince.

Have you not done enough damage to TAO11 arguments already in the other thread you bulldozed yourself into.

Do you want to give the guy more headache.

gregyboy:
Hahahaha have never have a good laugh like this for a while now, am screenshoting this for future reference lol
Can you imagine

Samuk
Ghostwon

I had made 10 mentions to TAO11 and yet no replies pls call him quickly the truth is unfolding
Oduduwa was just a political myth that failed for the benins

If he can disprove this fact then we can go back and argue our ife and benin supiority but as for now all arguments is to validate if there truly an ife and benin connection at all and to further expose the Oduduwa political myth


TAO11

Come out i guess you reading all books both the ones you're buying and this ones u aint buying not to loose to me, keep it up but be first to it, i got no time, if i get the information i need there will be no point again arguing with you on nairaland i would makesure all nairaland know there was never oduduwa and there was never a benin and ife connections

Lol. Even Metaphysical has see that their Orun Oba Ado is a lie, fake and fabrication.

I hope TAO11 will not have a heart attack when he sees the post from Metaphysical saying the same thing as the Benins, that the Benin Obas were buried in Benin and their bodies/head never exhumed and taken to Ife, the reason no human bones were found in their Orun Oba Ado when it was excavated.

Imagine your team mate giving you such an uppercut, a red eye and bloodied nose, there is no recovery from this unless TAO11 is shameless.

Let TAO11 and other of his Yoruba liars come and argue with their brother Metaphysical that he is not correct.

Now that Metaphysical has now agree with the Benins on this fake Orun Oba Ado, case closed.

The world can now see that even the Yorubas known themselves that the Benin/Ife connections was a fabrication.

I did say on the other thread that their arguments have become weaker even to themselves after all the evidences that were produced and analysed, including watering sources that was disproved.

Poor TAO11, how will him be feeling now, especially knowing that our Igbo brothers and other tribes will also be reading this post.

Don't be surprised if TAO11 still shamelessly come out to say something.

Can we now see how confused these Yoruba history revisionists are.

Gregyboy thanks for pushing them hard enough for them to start contradicting themselves.

TAO11 entire Benin/Ife relationship is based on the Orun Oba Ado fallacy that has just been shattered by his Yoruba brother Metaphysical calling him and the English man Willie stupid and foolish for believing such nonsense to the point of wasting his time to excavates the empty sites.

Imagine them even creating a burial site for female Obas of Benin thinking that Benin had female Obas.

You would have expected these arguments to die a natural death now but they will still find a way to cook up another absurdity.

TAO11:
Actually they have a number of conflicting creation myths.

One of them --- with the title "Iso Norho" --- specifically mentions Ife as the center of the world from where Edo, Ijaw, and Igbo left to their present location.

It talks about pouring sand over the primordial water-filled earth, about chain from heaven, etc. very similar to the Yoruba creation myth.

I will cite reference to it soon.

Modified --- see below as promised:

"The myth of the pouring sky ("Iso Norho" )

The most popular surviving non-dynastic myth of a common Edo origin is that of Iso Norho, ... .It puts the emergence of the Benin and other -speaking people in a primordial centre, Uhe, a place where problems are heaped before Oghene --- the God of creation --- ... .Uhe is said to have been occupied by Olukumi ("Yoruba" ), Igbon ("Igbo" ) and Uzon ("Ijo" ).

The myth begins by naming Oghene ( God" ) as the father of Iso ("the Sky" ), Ason ("Night" ) and Avan ("Daylight" ). Out of the three children of Oghene, only the eldest son, Iso ("Sky" ), had children; Ame ("Water" ) and Oto ("Earth" ). The children of Oto were Igbon ("Igbo" ), Olukumi ("Yoruba " and Idu ("Edo ". ... .But Oghene did not want the children to suffer undue hardship. By means of a chain he poured sand on the flood water to form dry land for their inhabitants. Thus Uhe ("i.e. old Ife" ) was formed by divine ("Oghene's" ) providence. ...

Idu's children ("Akka, Efa, Emechi" ) had to migrate from Uhe to the present site of Benin City --- then called Ubinu --- where they displaced a group of original settlers, Ivbirinwineko ("dwarfs from the spirit world" ). Memories of these original settlers are preserved in Edo songs and folklore."

Reference:
Roger Blench and Matthew Spriggs: Archaeology and Language I: Theoretical and Methodological Orientations, Taylor & Francis e-Library, 2004, pp.312-313.

Uhe in old Benin is not Ife. It was were Benin took refused during the rain that flooded the lowlands. Uhe is the mountainous region of Edo North. It was Egharevba and his Yoruba brothers that changed it to Ife

I repeat Uhe in old Benin was not present day Ife.

I know it's painful to wake up one day and realised that everything you based your history on are fake.

You must take heart because it's not the end of the world.

Benin/Ife history is a lie.

Benin and Ife have nothing in common, trying to steal other people's history through the backdoor is wicked and criminal.

Unlike Benin that fought so many wars for centuries, Ife never shot an arrow.

gregyboy:
Whatsapp discusion with a benin historian on the life of egharevba

Tao11

See how biased the yoruba historian you always quote because he bears an edo name

I already alluded to the fact that Egharevba work was greatly influenced by Yoruba and his Yoruba heritage in one of my replies to TA011 in the other thread.

Oba Erediawa said the same thing in his book.

The Esogban of Benin, third in position to the Oba said in his reply to the late Ooni that we in Benin thought that Egharevba wrote a fantastic story but didn't realised that the Ooni took it seriously to even reference it.

Most people in Benin don't take the Benin/Ife story seriously.

MelesZenawi:
cc

samuk

You guys enjoy this free Benin history lessons. The guy can go to the other thread to educate himself on Benin/Yoruba history.

No need to populate this thread with already available information in a similar thread.

As the Benins have already shown in the other thread, the Benin/Ife history was manufactured sometimes after 1823. Before this time there are nothing about Benin/Ife relationship recorded in Benin history.

Europeans stated visiting and recording Benin history since the 1400s AD.

For the first four hundred years of European contact and recording of Benin history, there was nothing about Benin/Ife relationship written or can be found in the numerous European archives that still houses Benin history.

It was the early educated Yorubas with some historians of Benin/Yoruba heritages that stated infusing Yoruba into Benin history in other to create a united western Nigeria which eventually fell apart in 1963 after the mid west walked away due to Yoruba tribalism.

Apart from outright fabrications of evidence to support the new Benin/Ife revisionist history, the scholars went through the vast archives of Benin artworks and begin to ascribe Ife to Benin artworks that originally made references to others tribes such as the Nupe and Igala. Nupe and Igala people were replaced with Ife/Yoruba people.

Statements that were initially made about rulers of now middle belt of Nigeria were now ascribed and presented to be referring to the Ooni of Ife.

They came up with a burial site for Obas of Benin in Ife Orun Oba Ado which was excavated and no human bones found.

On the other thread, gregyboy did a very brilliant job of analysis by analysing one of the Benin artworks that TA011 provided as depicting Ife messager to Benin.

Gregyboy was able to compare the artworks with photos of modern day Nupe and Igala people and they match, the artwork bears no resemblance to photos of Ife/Yoruba people provided.

I already did a summary of this on that thread.

There were also piece of evidence like the cross the messager was wearing that can't be found anywhere in early Ife history.

If you juxtapose all these with other evidences that can still be seen in Benin and early Europeans writing of Benin Idah relationship, you will understand that the Yorubas people are trying to replace other tribes such as the Nupe and Igala in old Benin empire history with themselves.

That's not to say that Benin didn't have some sort of relationship with various different Yoruba tribes such as Owo, Akure, Ekiti, Lagos, etc.

Benin/Ife history is a fake, it was fabricated in the 19th century.

You guys shouldn't expect me to be saying much on this thread because this has already be dealt with in the other thread, anyone interested should go there and read.

gregyboy:
I noticed too that that sculpture was not just having only an ife ife tribal marking it was not also having the facial scarification popular to the yorubas in ancient and they went ahead to show it relevance by depicting in thier artwork

Ruling all this out this sculpture was not an ife man

The sculpture couldn't have been an Ife person because Benin hadn't made any contact with Ife at this period, 15th century. No evidence to support such contact.

You can compare this sculpture with the Ife one TA011 produced, they don't match.

Benin sculptures are always very detailed and accurate and the photo of the sculpture you provided matches the photos of Nupe/Igala people you provided to support it.

Any fair minded person can see that the Benin sculpture couldn't have depicted an Ife massager but Nupe/Igala messager.

Unless they also want to come up with some lie on how the cross the figure is wearing round his neck got to Ife in the 15th century and nothing survived in Ife till date to support it.

The Portuguese wrote about the Benin/Ida/Igala people at that time but no early Europeans wrote anything about Benin/Ife for the first three hundred years of their contact with Benin.

The Yoruba have no concrete and authentic evidence to back up the Benin/Ife connection, the story was initially fabricated in the 19th century to unite the western Benin and Yoruba people but the union fell apart when Yoruba political elites started their usual tribalism.

The Benin led the rest of the people of it's former kingdom out to form the Mid West.

If Ife was that prominent at the 15th century and was closely linked to Benin, there would have been numerous surviving evidence from that period.

An earthquake didn't happen in Ife to destroy their evidences neither were their evidences looted and stolen.

I did mention the Emue-mue statue at Ikpoba hill commemorating the Benin/Idah war and there are other evidence in Benin about early Benin/Idah relationship.

You can hardly find anything that support the Benin/Ife connection at this earliest times of 15c, 16c and 17c.

If you notice my earlier post on this thread, I did mention that there were no contact between Benin and Ife recorded for centuries.

There are far more known between Benin/Akure relationship than Benin/Ife relationship.

Like I said before, you can continue to enjoy yourself debating/arguing with them.

One thing is for sure, they have learned new things from this debate.

You have done more than enough damage to their lies already with all your evidence and the way you disproved their watering sources.

Other tribes and even some of their Yoruba people that will read this thread will begin to see the lies in the Benin/Ife fabrications.

The lies is no longer as solid as it was to them before the beginning of this thread.

As for must Benin people, we knew all along that the Benin/Ife connection was a fabrication but the lies have just been exposed to the world to see.

I bet if they had known what the Benin knew about the Benin/Ife story, they wouldn't have be pushing the arguments.

I warned them before that it's very difficult to forge Benin history due the many reference points to disproved any fake and forgery.

What you have done with photos of the sculptures and their comparisons is brilliant and commendable.

Their Benin/Ife connection fabrication is now in serious doubt to them. They are in serious trouble with this history/story.

Next, you will begin to see them shutting cheap irrelevant diversionary shots which are usually the mark of those that have lost the battle/debate/argument.

Good job.

TAO11:
Except that he hasn't that he hasn't produces any lie that has not been debunked.



Wait, you failed to say a word in relation to your my reply to your damage control and cheap excuse that some Obas were buried buried outside of Benin.

I've shown that burial outside of Benin is no way imaginable a detterent to the tradition of exhuming their heads.

Your second cheap excuse that Orhogbua drowned and his corpse went missing was shown to be a blatant lie in its entirety.

Moreso, there is no historical record to justify the imagination that the Benin Navy lackedthe will and interest in rescuing the floating corpse of Oba Ehengbuda.


You were exposed and you kept mute and quickly clung to the side point of some alleged Ife-traditiom on female Obas of Benin which I also beat you back to silence on.

If you stand for the truth, you dont have to remember anything

Quit lying today!

I am still coming back to write a summary on the Orun Oba Ado issue having beat you to silence on it with historical and archaeological evidence.

Most Benin known all along that the Benin/Ife connection was a fallacy let alone Orun Oba Ado.

I know it means the world to Yoruba history and without it, you guys are left with almost nothing and a watering history.

Benin history have much more to offer without the Ife lies. Some of us like to have fun on these your provocative threads when will have the time.

I already provided a link to your Yoruba brother thread here on nairaland that started these Orun Oba Ado lies in 2014, the lies started with two sites, one for Male and the other for female Obas of Benin.

It was when it was pointed out that Benin forbids female being Oba, you guys took the correction and came back with a reversed version of the lies.

Fortunately, there are other aspects of Benin history that are currently beyond you guys reach.

gregyboy:
That wss not an ife messanger ooh guy i go shout ooh

That sculpture is a 15century sculpture made by the benins at the time the Portuguese had made contact with the benins, the Portuguese never recorded account of benin and ife interactions

The Portuguese were told by the benins about oghene to be a powerful priest and this sculpture was made in 15c were the Portuguese never experienced any ife - benin interactions
The Portuguese noted kingdom benins had interactions with never at one tims theg mentioned uhe or ife in thief texf


Again afc ryder did wrote is works on document from Portuguese account and had discovered were the Oghene they benins mentioned could be located if anything was wrong in ryders work definitely no his location

Oga download pages of the book and send here
Accept thesame book would bite you if you post it lol like it did in ryders article


Atleast lets see three or four scholars who had agreed to adam knobler write up i never said you should post all scholars


Again how did Adam himself get into the conclusion that ife was oghene if its on that sculpture then is entire work was wrong, if we are to follow the Oduduwa myth benin only had connections with ife at 10c


Again why would benin call ooni oghene in the first place is ooni that hard to prononce, get it benin dont only reffered to ife as uhe strangers outside benin are calked uhe so oghene n uhe meant a different stranger from ife

Whilst you carry on this debate/argument just remember that no matter what you produce to prove the Yorubas wrong, they are not going to let go of Benin/Ife connection, it means the world to them, they have invested so much on it, without it they will have no solid history to brag about.

You carry on and enjoy yourself but remember the Yorubas are not going to let go, no matter what.

They need Benin to validate Ife.

TAO11:
Yes he is!

He was the first indigenois Edo to write anything down of your history.

Listing here = writing with names in a way that it can ne counted.

It's not just to count some objects or tombstone.

Where did he get the names from if they were just objects and tombstones.

I guess he must have lived through the ages of all the Obas.

A well established system was already in place that Egharevba copied from.

I don't need Egharevba to list and tell me the names of my forefathers.

TAO11:
It was Egharevba who gave the listing of Benin Obas in his work which has become the palace's official listing till date. So tell me again about he's wrong.

Oh I know why, because he was uneconomical with the truth, and because he did part of his primary school in Ondo.


Anyways, Egharevba's work is described by world-renowned historians of Benin history as a pioneering classic.

It is therefore only in your wildest imagination that his work is "wrong".

Are you serious by saying Egharevba gave the palace the official listing of Benin Obas.

I told you before how an average Benin person can walk into his ancestral altar and count for himself the numbers of his ancestors and the history behind them.

Do you know that after the coronation of every Oba, there are various shrines across the land that have to be updated with the information in various forms.

TAO11:
You're incredibly slow.

Anyways what you said you wrote about Orun Oba Edo has been addressed because noo one calls it that, what we call it is Orun Oba Ado.

And I have shown from historical documents that Ado is an endonym for Benin.

See here:



Having said that, regarding Oduduwa festival:

I am simply asking you that why then do the Binis continue to celebrate Oduduwa ritual festival if there was no connection??

Are you saying that the elders and the Oba of Benin included are all insane??

I asked you thjs question since over about month now and you're still yet to return with one word.

Does the attachment below look familiar??

Good to know that Oduduwa is only celebrated as masquerade in Benin. There are also other masquerades such as Ekpo that are also celebrated as well.

When Oba Ewuare 11 visited Calabar earlier this year, he informed the Calabar people that he would like the Calabar carnival to become part of the annual celebrations of his coronation.

So celebrating Oduduwa masquerades in Benin doesn't mean it was always like that.

No doubt Benin had relationship with various Yoruba tribes at different times but the Benin/Ife connections is a modern day forgery.

gregyboy:
Lol

Post the link of the adam knobler article you so love this guy because is work was 2016 lol

Post me the link of the articles


And again who are te the scholars you assume came to a consensus please post they are various works with the links to thier articles attached thanks


3. The artefact of the ife art work carrying crosses with helment and whiskers should also be posted

gomojam
DonCandido
Amujale
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Opiletool
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geosegun

No matter all the sources you produce to disclaim the Benin/Ife modern day story, the Yorubas are not going to let go because it means the world to them.

Take Benin out of Yoruba history, what would they have as history.

But Benin can do without Benin/Yoruba/Ife stories but the Yorubas cannot.

The Benin history have so much more without the Yoruba connection but what do the the Yoruba have without Benin being infused into their history

You are literally begging them to drop the Benin/Ife story because it's a lie but they are not having it and letting go.

TAO11:
How do you even dare bring a Nairaland thread before me and call it evidence --- regrdless of the tribe of whoever is there??

Hello, I asked for evidence of the tradition.

And by now (given the time you've spent with me) you should have realized that what you should produce is an academic documentation of such tradition. Gosh!

Oh, the Oba of Benin truly doesn't leave the Palace because every Tom, Dick, and Harry from Benin says that??

C'mon, that's a very weak and low one there from you samuk, you should do better than that.

So the one gregyboy has been producing to show that the Benin/Ife story is a modern day fabricated history that was not previously known in early Benin history is not enough.

He has disproved and pointed out all the flaws in your sources and you still want me to produce more.

There are nothing to produce because there were nothing written/documented in Benin history about the Benin/Ife connections for the first 2 to 3 hundred years of European contact with Benin.

Do you want me to produce what is not there.

The Benin/Ife story is a lie stated here on nairaland by your Yoruba brother whose link I have already provided.

You guys are further propagating the lie using questionable sources.

Your Yoruba brother said that as of 2014 there were two physical sites in Ife bearing the inscriptions of Male and female Orun Oba Ado.

gregyboy:
You meam lancelot imaseun number

No he is different from Lancelot Imaseun, the Nollywood movie maker.

His name is Imaseun Izoduwa. He is the leader of the group called Great Benin descendants (GBD) worldwide.

The group was created to unite and reconnect all those tribes that claim Benin descent across West Africa and rest of the world with Benin.

There were various tribes who didn't know how to reconnect with their Benin roots. This body is that bridge.

Him and his group are often invited by these various tribes for seminars and lectures.

He is easy to find online. Add his number to your WhatsApp and see his photo and use it to locate him on Facebook.

TAO11:
Is this the best damage control stunt and excuses you can pull??

Even I myself am feeling pity for you right now. Sorry

Anyways, to knock of your self-inflicted delusions and excuses, get the following into your thick skull:

One of your two chief excuse and damage control attempt was of Oba Ewuare I's request to be burried at Esi.

Even if this is a historical information which you can substantiate, I will love to see your ingenious explanation of how it is a detterent to the tradition of exhumed the heads of third-reign Benin Obas for burial at Orun Oba Ado

You can do this!


The second chief excuse and damage control attempt you made was of the 18th king --- Oboa Orhogbua's alleged drowning and lost corpse.

And my response to this is simply that: This statement right here is false in its entirety.

Proceed to substantiate this statement in case you think you're correct.

In fact, the closest historical information that exists is of another Benin Oba who drowned. Yet, nothing is said (in any historical record) about the unwillingness of the Benin Navy to recover his floating body.


In summary, the underlying facts which deflate and undermine your overall excuses and damage control attempts are two, viz.

(1) The location of the Oba's burial (even if outside of Benin) is in no way a detterent to the tradition of exhuming their heads for burial at Ife.

(2) This tradition is done (according to historical information) only in every third-reign.

In light of this deconstruction and debunking of your chief excuses and damge control attempt, I will love to see how you come up with a similar enumeration which will result in other than eleven third-reign heads.


In response to your side-distraction, provide me your evidence for any Ife-Yoruba tradition which states that there is a burial site for some alleged female Obas of Benin.

And if you can't provide any such evidence (and certainly you can't as such evidence exists only in yoir wild imagination), then you may wan't to consider quitting your habitual lying as a matter of urgency.

I am always here to evsntuallu burst your lies no matter how cool those lies have initially made you appear.

In conlusion:
Contrary to your wishful-imagination about Orun Oba Ado, I have in contrast cited historical information showing that the heads of third-reign Benin Obas were exhumed and taken to Orun Oba Ado site in Ife for burial.

I have also adduced corroborating archaeological evidence from excavation quest at Orun Oba Ado which not only confirmed the circular "burial pits", but also found them to be "eleven" --- a number which matches the number of third-reigns at Benin kingdom with astonishing accuracy.

See here:

As an important appendix to the foregoing, it is important to note that that I stress here that Frank Willett himself had indicated elsewhere that to disprove a local tradition of olden burial, what archaeologists look out for is the absense of burial pits.

In other words, archaeologists themselves understand that the absense of human remains is not the factor for absolute disproof, as they could have been put to other sacred use prior to modern times.

Cheers!

Below is the link to the thread by one of your Yoruba compatriots here on nairaland who started the Orun Oba Ado fallacy in 2014.

It clearly states that there are two site, one for the Male Obas and the second for the female.

https://www.nairaland.com/1794927/ile-ife-final-rest-place-oba

For a long time now, there has been the argument over the true rest place of the oba (kings) of Benin. While some, mostly of Yoruba descent believe the oba's decapitated heads are buried in Ile-Ife, hence the phrase, "orun oba Ado"; those of Benin descent believe their oba are buried in Benin.
I came across this two shrines in Gbelenkan Street, Ile-Ife recently with the inscription, "Orun Oba Ado" meaning the heaven of the kings of Ado (Benin). The one to the right when coming from Oduduwa College has the drawing of the head of a Benin oba with the inscription, owhviwo (male). The one opposite it that of the female.
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gregyboy:
How do i contact him

This is his WhatsApp no. +234 813 672 2162 or 0813 672 2162

You can also find and reach him on Facebook.

gregyboy:
We choose not to make personal research on our history we just leave it untill something comes up before the history will be told

All this research work will help us understand were we migrated from

Always try to post your findings so peoole like us can carryout our own research so that way the knowledge is not lost

Trust me alot has been done and still being done interms of research into Benin history, you are probably not aware of them.

There are people still living in their 90s in Benin City who have been researching and writing about Benin history for over 50 years.

The reason you hear about Egharebva is the Yorubas who love his stories because it supports their fabrications.

There are volumes of unpublished works.

Check out Imaseun Izoduwa, leader of Great Benin Descendants (GBD) worldwide, online.

The guy is doing alot and working with great Benin researchers and authors.

The guy and his team have made numerous trips to those tribes across west Africa that claim Benin descents, they often invite him and his team to their celebrations.

He and his team have been invited and visited Benin descendants in Ghana, Rivers State, Delta State etc. You will see find videos of some of his visits online.

He even do live broadcast on Facebook on Benin history.

You can contact him.

MelesZenawi:
No need answering. Necessity doesn't demand I give an answer.

I have never seen where Insult begots salutations...

Whilst the fun continues, every now and then, I have to check to see if you are still in the house enjoying the debate with us by writing something about the Igbos.

It will be unfair to leave my Igbo brothers in the cold.

gregyboy:
We need start sourcing our history out, our forefathers had done well to lay a good history for us and what could do to pay them is telling the histories properly and sourcing them out


The idiot egharevba who was finding a way to merge edo to the western region created the false history of Oduduwa

Benin in earliest time maintained izoduwa escaped to ughoton and that is what benin referred to uhe
It was after the egharevba articles that benin historian began to follow the Oduduwa trend and it lead us nowhere than lies and confusion the foreign writters also admitted that this kingdom benin had contact with lost most of thier history after they became islamized,



Please post the link of the work of the benin historian you mentioned

I am not sure if they are readily available online but if you are in Benin, some of the old bookshops may still have them, I got my copies shipped to me many years ago but don't know where they are now.

Try googling the author online.

Thousands of years ago Benin people also lived side by side with now extinct dwarf pygmies that were less than 5 feet in height.

The same dwarf pygmies are mentioned in the evergreen Sir Victor Uwaifo's song Jorome. Ivbie-ehivineka.

The Benin/Ida war you mentioned happened in 1500s, during the reign of Oba Esigie, centuries before the Benin/Ife stories were manufactured. Oba Esigie had problems with one of his chiefs and the chief instigated the Atta of Igala to invade Benin.

The Igala were stopped and repelled at the Emuemue statue at Ikpoba hill with help of guns that were supplied to Benin by the Portuguese.

The first know letter that was ever written from Benin was written during this war in the 1500s by a Portuguese man who was stationed in Benin and wrote back to his King the report of the ongoing war between Benin and Ida.

Emue-mue at Ikpoba hill is also referenced in another Sir Victor Uwaifo's song. Emue-mue was one of the tactics and tricks Benin used to defeat the Igala with the help of Oba Esigie's mother, the first Benin female military general.

Today the Atta of Igala still wears the Benin Idia (Festac) mask around his neck.

We sometimes like to dance and have fun with our Yoruba brothers online even though we know they are spewing rubbish as history.

Benin history is too vast, well established and documented.

Benin/Ife story is nothing but hogwash, that is why you hardly find anything in the numerous letters and documents that were written by Europeans stationed in Benin for centuries making any mention of it, except the later day revisionists.

gregyboy:
Foreign historians believe ife and benin never had an connection

The Oghene the edo mentioned to the Portuguese has been traced to igala and we know in benin history that edo had a connection with igala people before even before the benin - igala war a bsnin chief had gone to seek the help of thier powerful neighbors the igala to help waged a war against benin fortunately benin came out victorious,
But no fucking records on ife than mere myth
They trying to steal the Oghene as ife two foreign historians had disprove this fact


The sly tao11 would take a rest from benin-ife history soon when all the truth is out


Benin had maintained ekeladeran had ran to ughoton and not ife in the earliest first record, it was the idiot egharevba that related the benin autonomous history and that ife oduduwa when benin was still part of former western region

Please lets start telling the stories correctly its a shamed foreign writters are the ones helping us to correct this notion we made up

Ekeladeran ran to ughoton at the time benin was still very autonomous and centralized like it was before the arrival of the Portuguese, i believed before the benin chiefs got to ughoton ekeladeran had moved from ughton to somewhere unknown or probably even died the son eweka he left behind at ughoton became the first oba, this is to show the word oba is a beni world influence by the benins to the yoruba people

Are you familiar with the works of Osarẹn S B Ọmọregie and The age of Iso Norho. If you are not, find yourself a copy.

Benin Uhe is the mountainous area of Edo North and Kogi state. That is the area the Benins run to for refuge when must part of the low land was flooded with water due the rains that was possibly captured in the bible during the time of Noah/the last ice age.