₦airaland Forum

MelesZenawi:
You really cross boundary with such analysis. You are here arguing with Yorubas and suddenly how Igbos fly into the talk is what I am yet to fathom out...

Is that how you balance issues?

How does that answer my question about how your Sunday is going.

MelesZenawi:
Cancelled it because what you wrote here is a load of Cambodian rubbish... recycled in Congo and dumped in Benin.

I have always tell people on this forum that points are not drawn from little papers when over thousands of technical papers existing...

What the hell is Benin kingdom or whatever rubbish you chose to call it...?


If you don't know much about people , you ask question instead of writing trash or moreover you research about Nri hegemony and where her fame starts and ends and another begins from there. Nri has people it is ascribed to and if you don't know you ask questions instead of exhibiting loads of Ignorance online.


Reloading Nonsense at this 21st century is simply animalistic and archaic...

This is 21st century and Today is 5th of March and as it stands today Igboland is Igboland, hausaland is hausaland, biniland is biniland like wise Yorubaland and others...

Revisionist theorist has never achieved anything with propaganda. You are in Igboland and your ancestors in Benin...what s theory of gigantic propose..and only psyche believes that..


The relationship any group has with anybody is simply that of trade infact businesses and nothing else.

Obi of onitsha has it's allegiance to Igboland. He doesn't answer any Bini name likewise his lineage. The man don't speak Bini or even hear the language.. What on Earth will lead to r/ship if not conquest by old kingdoms and business also.

Come and tell me also that Igboland is Bini ancestry. Relationship are seen by traces but in the case of Bini I am yet even a single drop of it if not unnecessary fictitious article...

Abeg carry this your Bini theory to Urhobo, Itshekiri...

Igbos has passed that nonsense in this 21st century. Even riding through thick of the forest, it was ends with title of either obi, eze or igwe..


The worst fabrication is this nonsense I read of nri to the glory of one nonsense kingdom.

Happy Sunday and good to know you are still around following the arguments and debates.

We don't have to agree all the time. We agree sometimes and disagree some other times.

Hope you are enjoying your Sunday and hiding from Covid-19.

gregyboy:
Truly,

Another fabrication would stilk come up anx ot will never end we will always be the ones defending its time we tell the truth,
That oduduwa was always a myth benin never in contact with ife

You are very right, that is the reason the Yorubas always come up with provocative threads, to draw the attention of Benin and learn new things with style as the debate goes on, all the new information they learn from the Benins are then used to correct their errors in future revised versions of their fabrications.

The Ife and Oduduwa myth were created to unite all Yorubas under one spiritual umbrella the way the Sultan of Sokoto is the religious and spiritual leader of all muslims and Hausa/Fulani.

Igbo also tried the Same with their Nri story.

Whilst the Hausa/Fulani succeeded, the Yorubas and Igbos are having problems with theirs because of the presence of kings of Benin descendants in these places that will not reduce themselves or submit themselves to those they think are royal and spiritual usurpers and inferior to themselves because of their Benin royal bloods

The same reason the Oba of Lagos will not subscribe to the supremacy of the Ooni even publicly disgracing him by refusing to shake his hand.

Oba of Lagos have severally said in public that the Oba of Benin is his father.

There is also the Alafin/Ooni supremacy tussle.

So trying to include Benin to their Ife/Oduduwa project is very important to those propagating the Yoruba spiritual unification project.

It allows them to extend their reach into all former Benin empire territories and those monarchies that claim Benin ancestry.

They can use it to claim Lagos, Itsekiri and other Benin descendant monarchies true the back door.

In the east, you have the Nri spiritual project having problems because the Arochukwus will not subscribe to it and the Obi of Onitsha, a descendant of Benin will not accept the supremacy of Nri over himself.

The Obi of Onitsha considers himself the true royal blood and the most senior king in Igbo land.

The west and east spiritual unification of the people would have succeeded like the North but because of the egos of the majority tribes.

In the North, the majority Hausa people unite under the leadership of the minority Fulani whilst the Fulani adopted the Hausa language as a common language.

The latter day Hausa majority are not trying to usurp the conquest and historical achievements of the Fulani or trying to rewrite their history.

The west could have done the same by having Yoruba/Benin west with the Oba of Benin as the spiritual leader because he is the one that have the conquest and historical achievements to ascend such a position, you wouldn't have had a situation of the Oba of Lagos publicly disrespecting the Oba of Benin and on exchange the Benin would have adopted the Yoruba language as a common language.

There would have been more unity because everyone would have gotten something out of the union, there would have been no need for these endless debates that further divides the people daily.

The Oba of Benin who would have became the most senior and spiritual leader of the west would have been seen as a Yoruba Oba and Benin history would have became part of the wider Yoruba history because the Benin people would have adopted and be speaking the Yoruba language as a common language.

Those that started the west/Oduduwa unification project were not very clever enough to give everyone something to make them happy to be part of it.

Haven't made that mistake, they are now trying to steal Benin history to make up for it.

Same way the majority Igbos could have come under the spiritual leadership of the Obi of Onitsha rather than causing unnecessary confusions with the Nri project.

TAO11:
The following shows a listing of all the reigns in Benin starting from Oranmiyan's all the way down to before Ovoranmwen's whose partial reign and imminent deposing marked the beginning of the British colonial intervention in Benin's polity.

Refer to https://www.edoworld.net/Obas.html for a verification of this listing.

1. Oronmiyan
2. Eweka I
3. Uwakhuanhen ☆
4. Ehenmihen
5. Ewedo
6. Oguola ☆
7. Edoni
8. Udagbedo
9. Ohen ☆
10. Ogbeka
11. Orobiru
12. Uwaifiokun ☆
13. Ewuare I
14. Ezoti
15. Olua ☆
16. Ozolua
17. Esegie
18. Orhogbua ☆
19. Ehengbuda
20. Ohuan
21. Ahenzae ☆
22. Akenzua
23. Akengboi
24. Akenkpaye ☆
25. Akengbodo
26. Oroghene
27. Ewuakpe ☆
28. Ozuere
29. Akenzua I
30. Eresoyen ☆
31. Akengbuda
32. Obanosa
33. Ogbebo ☆
34. Osemwende
35. Adolor
36. Ovoranmwen

(A) Starting with Oronmiyan as the reference point, I have indicated the successive "third-reigns" with a "☆" for ease of following through.

And there are obviously eleven "third-reigns" in total.

(B) If, however, one contends that Oronmiyan was not formally Oba at Benin, and that the enumeration should start with Eweka I as the reference point; then the eventual total number of "third-reigns" would still remain eleven.

(C) Even if you argue that the tradition resulted from an after-thought subsequent to when the "first" Oba Eweka I had already left the scene, the eventual total number of "third-reigns" --- starting thus with Uwakhuahen as the reference point --- would still remain eleven.


As I have since noted before now, this resulting total number of "third-reigns" (i.e. eleven )
matches precisely the total number of circular "burial pits" (i.e. "eleven" ) which Frank Willett noted that he found at Orun Oba Ado, when he conducted an archaeological excavation of the site.

Refer below for reference to Frank Willett's find:
WILLETT 2004: Chapter 1.3. cited in James W. Lankton, O. Akin Ige, & Thilo Rehren, "Early Primary Glass Production in Southern Nigeria", Journal of African Archaeology, Vol. 4 (1), 2006, pp.125-126.
See copy here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274431270_Early_primary_glass_production_in_southern_Nigeria


gomojam
DonCandido
Amujale
macof
Sewgon79
lx3as
Opiletool
nisai
2fine2fast
Aphrygian
Olu317
Obalufon
geosegun


ghostwon
gregyboy
davidnazee
samuk

I submitted in an earlier post that the reason it's difficult for the forgery and fabrications of Benin history to stand the test of time is because of the many reference points that may be unknown to the forger.

You based your calculations on the assumptions that all Obas of Benin finished their reigns, died and was buried in Benin according to customs and traditions of the land.

The list of the Obas you presented did not take into account the Obas that couldn't be buried in Benin for various reasons which included their body not being found for burial due to drowning.

Infact some of the Obas you cited as their heads being buried in Ife are in the list of Obas that couldn't have been buried in Benin let alone their heads being exhumed and taken to Ife.

If the Obas that where not or couldn't been buried in Benin for various reasons where taken into account, your calculations wouldn't add up.

What you guys always do is to learn new things from the Benin and used the new information to adjust your future fabrications to make them look authentic.

The reason some Benin people are reluctant to debate you guys is because when your errors are pointed out, you take the new revelation/information and use them to come up with reversed fabrications.

There is one small piece of information you guys have since abandoned because of what you learned from the Benin.

Orun Oba Ado fallacy initially started with two sites, one for the remains of male Obas of Benin and another for female Obas of Benin.

This was as a result of the Yorubas thinking that Benin also had female Obas.

Now you don't talk about the female site anymore.

The Orun Oba Ado is a fabrication.

TAO11:
Never expect to lie and not be exposed. I am only responding to all your lies and deceptions point by point.

(1) You're a such a fatuous liar.

You never specifically requested me to show how I arrived at my enumeration result.

You're just making that as a fresh request now, yet you're dishonestly passing it off as though you did earlier.

To quote your words, your earlier request is simply as follows:

" ... please do the enumeration and tell us if your numbers add up."

In fact towards the end of your comment, you wrote:

 "I am waiting for the result of the simple arithmetic assignment..."

And my response to these specific request of yours was that:

"The enumeration of the Benin Obas matches exactly the number of "burial pits" found by Frank Willett at Orun Oba Ado --- "eleven"."

So, in what way did I not answer the specific question you asked.


(2) I am not sure if you lie for a living, or you just don't read what you reply to.

Even if the latter is the truth, then it makes you a m0r0n for typing out replies to comments you didn't read.

I didn't just set the challenge (to the Binis) in my foregoing reply. I had already done that in my first comment in which I had tagged you among others.

Once again the question and the challenge to the Binis which I had set out with in my initial comment remains as follows:

"Now, how many third-reigns are there between Oranmiyan's reign on one hand, and the reign before Ovoranmwen's on the other hand??

Note: Ovoranmwen's incomplete reign in 1897 marks the point from when the British intervened in Benin's polity when they exiled him to Calabar.

I challenge any Bini reading this to do the enumeration, and then revert back to this thread with the number, to allow for a comparison with the "eleven" "burial pits" which Frank Willett found at Orun Oba Ado."

In other words, it is I who had originally put out this question and challenge to the Bini --- yourself included.

So, stop pretending that you did first just to cover up your shying away from reverting here with a number.

Anyways I will show a clear and detailed enumeration here. Keep calm!

(3)

(4) There is not one single question which you had asked up to this point which I haven't answerd, including the result of enumeration of the Benin Obas.

That is despite the fact that it is I who first asked you the very same question to which you've provided no response up to this point.

(5) You seem to be bent on making it appear like I was the lead archaeologist of Orun Oba Ado. No, it is not a mere claim, neither is it mine.

Instead, that is a result from Frank Willett's archaeological find at Orun Oba Ado wherein he found eleven burial pits, six of which were fully excavated.

I gave you detailed reference. So, stop acting ignorantly.

And yes, Chief Egharevba noted that the practice was done in every third reign.

(6) Now that you've made a new additional request that I should demonstrate how I arrived at my answer, I will proceed to meet this request too as always.

(7)

Please see my next comment for a clear and detailed demonstration of how I arrived at my answer.

What is the long essay about, just show me the simple arithmetic on how you arrived at your conclusion that the burying of every third Obas of Benin in your eleven Orun Oba Ado empty burial pits accounted for all the Obas of Benin.

Docking and diving the question will not save you.

This is the only one time you were asked a simple logical question, you failed woefully because you can't cut and paste the answer from anywhere.

The good thing about all these is that non bias nairalanders will read my question and your answer and they will make their own judgement.

Haven't caught you pants down and haven't woefully failed to prove your claim, I will just seat back and let you entertain me with your fairytales.

TAO11:
There is actually no need re-posting the same comment of yours to another different and unrelated comment of mine just to give your gullible audience the false and deceptive impression that you're replying to all the comments from the yOrUbAs.

Moving on ...

(1) Lol! You noted that you see a "contradiction" between Dr. R. E. Bradbury's less graphic & less detailed description; and Chief J. U. Egharevba's explicit and minute description.

Well, I would have thought that you wouldn't have merely ignored the "contradiction" you see, but that you would instead have pointed it out for all to learn the updated definition of a 'contradiction'.

In fact, you have a burden of proof for any implicit or explicit claims you make. What you do not have is the freedom to shirk (or "ignore" ) from proving any explicit or implicit claim you make.

(2) No I didn't make the claim. Rather, it was Frank Willet --- the archaeologist conducted the 1961-2 excavation of Orun Oba Ado --- who found a total of eleven "burial pits" at the site.

I am not sure why you assumed that it was I who conducted the excavation, even when I actually cited clear references to Frank Willett.

Moreover, if it is not a typo, then please be sure that there is no such thing as "Arun Oba Ado". All historical sources say "Orun Oba Ado". I am not particularly clear how you confuse "A" and "O" on a keyboard. They are almost on opposite sides. Please fix that going forward.

Furthermore, contrary to your misrepresentation, none of my sources say the "Oba was taken to Ife"

Instead, Chief J. U. Egharevba whom you refer to here say: "the head ...", and yes he added the detail that: "this was only done in every third reign."

And I'm yet to see how you arrived at the supposed "contradiction" between Dr. R. E. Bradbury's description and Chief J. U. Egharevba's description, in case you still insist on that.


(3) I am not sure if you usually take time to carefully read what you spend time responding to.

If you had taken your time to carefully read my comment in this regard, then you would have noticed that I must have done the enumeration already.

In fact, not only have I done it, I have also found that the enumeration of the number, of third-reign Benin Obas, matches the number of "burial pits" found by Frank Willett exactly.

And I proceeded to "challenge any Bini reading ... to do the enumeration" themselves and revert with their result for comparison.

Yes you're right, the listing of the "Obas of Benin are well documented". Thanks to Egharevba et al. whom you all hate so much for been uneconomical with the truth.

I also provided information on the complete listing of Benin kings in my earlier comment.

As a reminder, the following are my precise words:

"Now, how many third-reigns are there between Oranmiyan's reign on one hand, and the reign before Ovoranmwen's on the other hand??

Note: Ovoranmwen's incomplete reign in 1897 marks the point from when the British intervened in Benin's polity when they exiled him to Calabar.

I challenge any Bini reading this to do the enumeration, and then revert back to this thread with the number, to allow for a comparison with the "eleven" "burial pits" which Frank Willett found at Orun Oba Ado."

(4) Here you tried to be cunning by introducing the word "Assuming".

No, it is utterly counterintuitive to assume what is already known from both historical and archaeological evidence.

We know from historical information --- as I have shown --- that the head of the Oba was sent to Ife for burial.

We know from corroborating archaeological evidence (as I have shown) that not only were "burial pits" found at Orun Oba Ado, there are a total of "eleven" of them --- a number which precisely matches the result of enumeration of the Benin Obas.

These thus definitively establish the tradition of burial at Orun Oba Ado to be a historical fact.

And it is absurd to counterintuitively assume the very thing that has been definitively established.

So, your question which follows your request for assumption, thus becomes modified as follows:

Knowing now that the heads of the Benin Obas were indeed burried at Orun Oba Ado, why then are the "burial pits" empty??

And the rational answer is that they were obviously exhumed --- for further rites.

Just as any rational mind would expect that an item they had actually stationed at a spot but which couldn't be found there later was indeed moved.

In fact --- to be emphatic --- whatever had later happened to the heads after they had first been evidently burried there changes absolutely nothing about the admitted fact that they were burried there.

(5) No, the only fairytale is the fictional story of a certain Ekaladerhan who roamed the forest and eventually found his way to Ife to become Oduduwa. Lol

Refer to the link below to notice how this "Edowood" fiction of Ekaladerhan has been debunked and trashed by the world's most prolific historian on Benin History et al.:

And please remind me of the skydiving mission of Ogiso Igodo --- I miss fiction!

(6)

(7) Regarding the "simple arithmetic", I have already replied you on that. But for emphasis:

The enumeration of the Benin Obas matches exactly the number of "burial pits" found by Frank Willett at Orun Oba Ado --- "eleven".

(

Cheers!

Guy, are you seriously for real.

All I asked was just two simple questions and you went on Gulliver's travels and returned without answering my questions, only to publicly state that you have done the calculations in secret and they matched.

You are now asking the Benin to do their own calculations and come back for comparison.

I am not going to let you off lightly on this, no matter the diversionary tactics because you bragged earlier to have all the evidence to prove that Orun Oba Ado is not a fallacy. You even bragged to school me on it the way you did those before me.

Ejo, I am going to request that you answer just one of the two previous simple question this time.

You claimed eleven empty burial pits were found in Orun Oba Ado and one of your sources claimed that every third-reigns Oba was taken to Ife for burial.

1. Considering that the numbers of Obas of Benin are well documented, please do the enumeration and tell us if your numbers add up to back up your claim and show us your evidence/how you arrived at your conclusion.

This is just one simple question that don't need long essays and beating around the bush.

Please don't disappoint your Yoruba compatriots that are going to read your reply.

If you don't know the answer to the question, be humble enough to say so and I may just be magnanimous enough to do the calculations for you and it doesn't add up which proves your Orun Oba Ado as fabrication.

gregyboy:
What is your own story

Ife and Oduduwa history/story are all made up stories, that is why you see them contradicting themselves.

Have you not noticed how they have all run away back to their shells since my last post to TA011: asking him to prove his Orun Oba Ado fallacy.

I am still waiting for him to come back with answers to my questions.

The truth is, some of us don't take them seriously.

They are nairaland clowns who are here to entertain us with their tales by moonlight stories.

Benin means alot to them because of trying to use it to validate the Ife and Oduduwa fabrications.

Take Benin out of their fabrications, what else do they have to showcase as history.

Imagine these clowns arguing and contradicting the Oba of Lagos and his chief about the history of Lagos monarchy.

Hopefully he will learn from this and think twice next time before propagating the Orun Oba Ado lies.

TAO11:
Sure extant European documentations did show that they heard about Ife, but from the name of its powerful monarch, Oghene rendered Ogane.

Today scholars are now unanimous who d'Aveiro's Ogane is.

See attachment below:

Moreover, I will certainly get to you --- Don't hasten your punishment. I was dealing with your brother as you can see from my comments.

Are you conceding and running away from the below questions, let me know so that we can move on.

Let's for once ignore the contradictions in the two sources you cited and assume that the remains of the Obas of Benin that were claimed to have been taken to Ife meant the heads alone.

You claimed eleven empty burial pits were found in Orun Oba Ado and one of your sources claimed that every third-reigns Oba was taken to Ife.

Considering that the numbers of Obas of Benin are well documented, please do the enumeration and tell us if your numbers add up.

Assuming the empty pit at Orun Oba Ado once contained the remains of Benin Obas what happened to the remains, why are the pits empty.

I warned you and your fellow revisionist to stick to your Oduduwa fairytale and stay out of Benin history.

You have now dug yourself and your sources a bigger hole.

I am waiting for the result of the simple arithmetic assignment and what happened to the supposed remains in the 11 empty pits.

Please don't come back with insults and abuses as distractions.

gregyboy:
samuk
ghostwon
davidnazee

Please i need your attention

I want us to weigh the truth behind the ife and benin history because the history its so watery with no substantiall evidence no research has been done on it to validate its truth before, i read an article that disproved there was ever a relationship between both tribes outall


Please all concerned benin peope should drop thier whatsapp number here lets privately review this relationship on whatsapp, we may have been going on this history the wrong way

There are more authentic sources of Benin history these guys are not even aware of.

There were nothing said or written about Benin/Ife relationship in the first 200 years of European visitations to Benin.

But not to distract from TAO11. reply which I am eagerly waiting for.

I will like to see the lies and fabrications he will come up with this time to dig himself and his sources out of the hole he puts them.

TAO11:
Your conclusion that no heads were buried at the site ab-initio is non-sequitur because it does not necessarily follow from the fact that no skulls were found at the site.

Your conclusion does not necessarily follow because there can be more that one possible logical explanation for why no skulls were found at the site of the excavation:

(1) Yes, if no heads were buried there ab-initio, then no skulls would be found there in modern times.

(2) Also, if the buried heads were subsequently exhumed --- for ascension rites --- then no skulls would be found there in modern times.

You had assumed that case (1) was the one and only one deductible conclusion from the fact that no skulls were found there. No, case (2) is also equally plausible.

Having clarified that, there actually exists clear and direct historical information which shoots-down and writes-off case (1) as invalid.

For instance, Dr. R. E. Bradbury is noted --- by A. F. C. Ryder --- to have said that the Edo people themselves confirmed that certain messengers do carry an "Oba's remains" to Ife.

To quote the actual words of A. F. C. Ryder:

"In a personal communication, Dr R. E. Bradbury points out that 'the Edo speak of the messengers who carried the Oba's remains to Ife ..."

Reference:
A. F. C. Ryder, "A Reconsideration of the Ife-Benin Relationship", The Journal of African History, Vol. 6, No. 1 (1965), footnote 10.


Moreover, the earliest and illustrious indigenous Bini historian, Chief Jacob Uwadiae Egharevba spells out some specific details of this practice.

He describes, for example, what is specifically meant by "Oba's remains" with some quite graphic detail, while also adding more details to the general observance of this practice. He writes:

"The head of the royal corpse was subsequently exhumed and taken to the royal ancestral grave at Ile-Ife; but this was only done in every third reign."

Reference:
J. U. Egharevba, Benin Law and Custom, (CMS Niger Press, Port Harcourt 1946), p.72.

In sum, not only do these historical statements and information shoot-down case (1) as invalid, they in fact uphold case (2) as valid.


More interesting than all the foregoing is the fact that Frank Willett did indeed make other interesting finds at Orun Oba Ado --- finds which I have realized to be an astonishing confirmation of this practice.

In the course of his excavation of Orun Oba Ado, and after some feet below the top soil level; Frank Willett found (among other things) big circular pits which he described as "burial pits".

In total, the number of "burial pits" he found at Orun Oba Ado was "eleven".

Reference:
WILLETT 2004: Chapter 1.3. cited in James W. Lankton, O. Akin Ige, & Thilo Rehren, "Early Primary Glass Production in Southern Nigeria", Journal of African Archaeology, Vol. 4 (1), 2006, pp.125-126.
See copy here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274431270_Early_primary_glass_production_in_southern_Nigeria


If this practice had happened in accordance with the details given by Chief Egharevba --- as cited above --- then an appropriate enumeration of Benin's past Obas should also yield the same number "eleven".

This number "eleven" will either confirm or debunk the practice.

Notice that Egharevba added that this practice of taking the exhumed heads of buried Benin Obas to Ife is only done in every third-reign.

Now, how many third-reigns are there between Oranmiyan's reign on one hand, and the reign before Ovoranmwen's on the other hand??

Note: Ovoranmwen's incomplete reign in 1897 marks the point from when the British intervened in Benin's polity when they exiled him to Calabar.

I challenge any Bini reading this to do the enumeration, and then revert back to this thread with the number, to allow for a comparison with the "eleven" "burial pits" which Frank Willett found at Orun Oba Ado.

See here for a complete listing of Benin kings from a pro-Edo source:
https://www.edoworld.net/Obas.html


Hint for enumerating the third-reigns:
-------------------------------------------------------------
1. A
2. B
3. C ☆
4. D
5. E
6. F ☆
7. G

The 1st third-reign is C's,
The 2nd third-reign is F's, etc.

In sum, from A to G, there are only "two" third-reigns.

Cheers!

gomojam
DonCandido
Amujale
macof
Sewgon79
Lx3as
Opiletool
nisai
2fine2fast
Aphrygian
Olu317
Obalufon
geosegun


samuk
ghostwon
davidnazee
gregyboy

Let's for once ignore the contradictions in the two sources you cited and assume that the remains of the Obas of Benin that were claimed to have been taken to Ife meant the heads alone.

You claimed eleven empty burial pits were found in Arun Oba Ado and one of your sources claimed that every third-reigns Oba was taken to Ife.

Considering that the numbers of Obas of Benin are well documented, please do the enumeration and tell us if your numbers add up.

Assuming the empty pit at Orun Oba Ado once contained the remains of Benin Obas what happened to the remains, why are the pits empty.

I warned you and your fellow revisionist to stick to your Oduduwa fairytale and stay out of Benin history.

You have now dug yourself and your sources a bigger hole.

I am waiting for the result of the simple arithmetic assignment and what happened to the supposed remains in the 11 empty pits.

Please don't come back with insults and abuses as distractions.

gomojam:
Baba nor be fight now

This is not fight but fun while the lockdown lasts, hope you are keeping and staying safe.

MelesZenawi:
You are the one having headache on people that want out..

Benin/Igbo a and Igala/Igbo are simply fiction and Imagination because nothing like that is existing.

Decisions here are always collective. The last bus stop is igbo nation homogeneously and that's the biafra of our dream... Nothingelse.


Nigeria has the tendency to fully unite the remaining ethnic nationalities when Igbos are out..

Moreover , we can test run whether Igbos want to stay through agreed referendum on Igbo territories only and not on any other territory.


If Igbos are out even you can now raise suggestions on how Nigeria will be and how it will be run collectively..

You are already upsetting those that call themselves proud Igbo/Igala Anambra indigines by trying to deny them their heritage even before Biafra is achieved.

gomojam:
At the first bolded, It's hypocrisy and ego.

Lmao at the Second bolded. He Don enter one chance. If only he knew from the beginning, o ma se ooo.

His brothers and praise singers had left after clogging him in this predicament. Won ti si ija ekun tan won wa fi orun sise si lapo.

When you guys from formerly little known Yoruba villages finished arguing the history of Lagos monarchy with the Oba of Lagos and his white cap chiefs, you can continue with your fiction of Oduduwa climbing down from the sky with chain and at the same time being the son of Ham.

You already have enough to chew on and confused yourself with and stop the fabrications that Obas of Benin where buried in Ife.

We the Benins are telling you it never happened and no evidence was found in your Orun Oba Ado site. So stop the lies.

Carry on with your Yoruba Oduduwa confuse history with all the various versions and not add Benin history to your confusion.

MelesZenawi:
Looking forward to biafra.

You guys can better Nigeria when we are off. That has always been our stand.

You have to first convince Benin/Igbo and Igala/Igbo descendants in Anambra state of the viability of Biafra.

TAO11:
You wrote "you stated" ... "you stated".

No, I did not "stated"

Experts who have studied Benin history all their lives did.

They stated that the heads of late Benin Obas are exhumed and taken to Ife. How did you manage to miss the references?? Oversight?? Or you didn't actually miss it but just pretending??

Also, a 1903-4 and an 1897 document on Benin did state that Ado was as an endonym for Benin.

It's wasn't me who stated that or some Yoru as who stated that. Experts on Benin history did. And the references are there. I'm confused how you could have missed it.

So leave me out of this and challenge historians to a debate instead!

While the historians deal with facts and reasonable accounts, you brace your self with the typical Bini feel good imaginations like Oba no dey go transfer, etc. and then call out historians of Benin history.

Whatever you do, make sure you leave me out of it because I never spoke of my own authority. Whatever I hear, I judge; and my judgement is therefore just.

And you're obviously not even a proper history enthusiast, let alone a student, let alone a scholar.

It's a fight between you and the scholars. Take it up with them and stop pretending it's you vs. me.


Anyways, I understand your reply is simply your defense mechanism kicking in.

I understand you're hurt. Don't over think it. Log out of Nairaland. Drink some water. Bright in and out. Play some video game. And then return later to read the comments, but at that time with your eyes and mind open.

You will be fine! I'm serious!

Bye!

Your so called expert on Benin history that you are referencing are either foreign revisionist or local confused historians that were heavily influenced and their history of Benin tainted by the west.

The 1800s to early 1900s was when the Benin/Akure relationship was at it's strongest, infact, there are people who are referred to in Benin as Edo Nekue, Edo Akure people (bonafide Benins themselves, but some have strong sympathy for the Yorubas), you will must likely find that your local Benin historians are from these Edo/Yoruba group.

The Benin themselves are history walking on two legs that others try to study. History is in our names, family morning greetings, songs, arts, dance, food, clothing, religion, customs, language, etc.

In Benin, the air your breath and the water you drink are filled with histories and the land you walk on is historical ground.

Imagine someone coming from nowhere to argue my family history with me, when a system had been in place for centuries for any child of the family who is interested to study and know their history.

Like I told you before, the average Benin person only needs to walk into his ancestral altar for the family history to reveal itself, the numbers of your grandfathers/forefathers from the beginning are there for you to count and see for yourself.

The heads of the families and other senior family members are the custodians of the various events that transpired during the reign of each of your forefathers and the Obas they served under.

Same method is in place in the villages and towns.

The Royal household have different palace society that are created as custodians of various aspects of the royal household/institutions.

Even within the royal cooks, there is a special chieftaincy title created for the chief butcher, so even palace butchers have their own history that chief Ehondon and the Ehondon family is the custodian of.

Some of our families are the custodians of these various aspects of the larger history of Benin and eye witnesses to what you guys are trying to write about.

Benin is not where an Oba dies and get buried like anyone else.

Even the coronation of a new Oba used to take years because of all the rites, rituals and traditions that have to be fulfilled.

It's during these rite, rituals and traditions that past historical events of worth are reenacted and every societies and groups have to play their roles.

The Oba have more than 300 palace chiefs with specific roles, not to talk of dukes of various villages and towns.

Benin is not where you dethrone an Oba today and appoints another same day or when an Oba dies you appoint another.

In Benin Obas are born and not given to the highest bidders.

Concentrate on who your Oduduwa was first before attempting Benin history.

TAO11:
The exhumed heads of late Benin Obas:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

samuk, you had earlier on shown interest in debating the above-underlined topic, despite my more-than-once warning that you shouldn't, considering the sensitivity of the topic.

It was just only a couple of exchange into the the debate that you abruptly pooled out unilaterally having smelt the rat. Lol.

You noticed how your best defenses were gradually crashing right before your eyes in the presence of my superior arguments.

That was despite the fact that I hadn't yet began adducing historical information and making deductions from them.

Whether you remain in hiding or return, I will simply not hold back from expatiating on the subject.

As a refresher, I will reconsider each of your defences and crush them in turn with superior argumentation, while also adducing historical information this time around:

(1) You argued that since there exists a burial site in Benin till date for almost all past Benin Obas, then the Orun Oba Ado burial could not possibly be true.

The fallacy of your argument here --- as I have pointed out --- relates simply to your lack of knowledge about the tradition of burial at Orun Oba Ado.

The tradition of burial at Orun Oba Ado is about exhuming the head of the royal corpse after the corpse had already been buried at the relevant site in Benin. The head is then ready to be taken to Ife.

[Refer to my next comment for reference to the relevant historical information].

So, no where does the tradition speak of taking the late Benin Oba's whole body to Ife --- which is what your defense here assumes.

You committed the strawman[i] logical fallacy!


(2) You asserted that the name --- [i]"Orun Oba Ado" --- of the Ife site is erroneous.

Your argument was that "Ado" here is a Yoruba misspelling/mispronunciation of "Edo"; and that "Edo" is a name of Benin which did not feature in the history of Benin until some centuries after the Oba dynasty has already been established.

Yes, it is true that the name Edo didn't feature in the history of Benin until much, much later; what is false, however, is your claim that "Ado" is a Yoruba misspelling or mispronunciation of "Edo".

No, the "Ado" in Orun Oba Ado is not a Yoruba misspelling/mispronunciation of "Edo". It has nothing to do with the Yorubas, but has everything to do with the Binis themselves. This is where your argument here collapsed.


To cite some historical information to demonstrate that "Benin" used to be know as "Ado", by the Binis themselves, I will turn to only two pieces of independent historical information:

(a) In the Volume 1, Part 3 of Professor R. E. Bradbury's "The Benin Kingdom and the Edo-Speaking Peoples of South-Western Nigeria", he lists, on page 170, R. E. Dennett's 1903-4 classic amongst his linguistic bibliographies.

The title of R. E. Dennett's work shown under the bibliography helps to shed some interesting light on the name "Ado" for "Benin". The title of the work is as follows:

""Notes of the language of the Efa or Bini, commonly called Uze-Ado." African Affairs, III, ..."

It therefore becomes clear from the foregoing that not only is "Ado" another name for "Benin", it is in fact an endonym.


(b) Furthermore, "The Saturday Review of Politics, Literature, Science and Art", Volume 83, (1897), pp.81-82, reads the following under the sub-heading 'BENIN':

"Another little war is teaching the British taxpayer what there is to know about Benin. It is not much. ... : "The Bight of Benin! the Bight of Benin! From which few come out -- though many go in!" The town of Benin, or Ado, as it is called by its inhabitants, lies some sixty odd miles inland from the coast, ..."


The two foregoing historical information, therefore, show clearly --- without a shred of reasonable doubt --- that the name "Ado" for "Benin" as seen in Orun Oba Ado is in fact astonishingly accurate.

"Ado" as has just been demonstrated was a name for "Benin" by the Binis themselves. You should be grateful to Ife for preserving this quite lost piece of your history.


(3) Your third argument in this regard was to the effect that no skulls were found in the course of the excavation of Orun Oba Ado.

Yes, it is a fact that the 1961-2 excavation of Orun Oba Ado, by Frank willett, yielded no skulls.

Your 'deduction' from this fact (of no skulls found), however, is that: indeed no heads were buried there ab-initio.


Your conclusion here --- as I have noted earlier --- is a fallacy. To be specific, it is a logical fallacy known in argumentation as non-sequitur.

This will be expatiated on in my following comment, after which supporting historical information will also be adduced.

gomojam
DonCandido
Amujale
macof
Sewgon79
Lx3as
Opiletool
nisai
2fine2fast
Aphrygian
Olu317
Obalufon
geosegun


samuk
ghostwon
davidnazee
gregyboy

I am very reluctant to resume this debate with you after showing yourself to be a Yoruba revisionist that will even dear argue the history of Lagos monarchy with the custodians themselves, the Oba of Lagos and his white cap chiefs, I don't know any Omoluabi that will want to engage in something like that.

You stated that the royal body of the Oba is exhumed and the head taken to Ife, this shows your complete ignorance of the burial rites of the old Obas of Benin by assuming that it's only the body of the Oba alone that is buried in his grave and the sacrilege of tempering with the burial site of an Oba.

You stated that Ado was associated with the inhabitants of Benin or the inhabitants of Benin also call themselves Ado, I don't know what exactly you are trying to prove with this.

In my earlier submission, I gave you account of some of the different periods in Benin history and the name Benin was known by various tribes that were either members of the empire or ruled by the empire.

People of these various tribes were also resident in Benin, it was not just the Benin (the ruling elites and administrators) alone that were in Benin.

It's a well established fact that the Urhobos were once in Benin and left during the period Benin was known as Arka and when they want to make reference to Benin in their local dialects, they still prefer Arka till date.

Western Igbos and Onitsha prefer to call Benin Idu.

The Yoruba people, with much later contact after the late 1400s AD called the Benins Ado.

So the remnant of Urhobos, Igbos, Yorubas that were still resident in Benin and were all referred to as Benin residents call the Benins (administrators) of the empire by various names.

Even the Benin called themselves Edo.

So you have not proven anything by saying that Benin residents referred to themselves as Ado, because it's was not just Ado but by various other names,

By the later years of European exploration of the Benin country, the Urhobos, Igbos and other tribes had moved out for various reasons whilst Yorubas, mostly from Akure were moving in because Benin was the capital of the empire and some roused to very prominent positions including the Iyase of Benin, prime minister and second position to the Oba of Benin

So you could meet a Benin resident at that time that will use the name Ado, Idu, Edo, Arka.

If you find yourself in the Yoruba areas of Benin, you will hear the name Ado being used. If a Yoruba Benin resident returned to the west from Benin, they will say they are coming from Ado.

Ado is not a name or was not the name Benin called themselves.

Please, you guys must first sort out your own confusions about who Oduduwa was before making attempts to dabble into the well established Benin.

Very few of you even know the true history of your own families and villages.

Benin was too organised, sophisticated and advanced for you guys to dabble into.

There is a system in place for any true Benin person to simply walk into his ancestral altar and know how many great grandfathers/ancestors had existed in that lineage and the history of each, same way to determine the history of various villages and towns.

Benin history is way out of your reach so concentrate of who Oduduwa was first.

AreaFada2:
Nor be only descendants of Ham, na descendants of Salami abi sausage. Hahahahaha!

This is where Yoruba history becomes interesting, various versions of Oduduwa, from descending from heaven with chain to being descendants of Ham.

At times it's good to just sit back and watch them argue with themselves.

MelesZenawi:
Yorubas don't see bini as Igbo. Even in lagos I have never seen that rather it is bini that always dissociates them sometimes..


All is past and we are looking towards the future and a. Viable government. Nigeria can't remain one forever. One day it will cease to exist..and biafra will start their own country.

That has been the pattern for years...even before lord trapped everyone here.

Benin and Yoruba do not only reside in Lagos alone, I have already given you my personal experience of being referred to as Igbo by Yoruba.

You must also understand that Lagos Yoruba may be more cosmopolitan and exposed than Yoruba from other places, besides, Lagos have always had a unique relationship with Benin.

Due to this unique relationship and shared common history, one can understand why an average Lagos Yoruba don't see themselves as different from the average Benin. The same may not be true about a Yoruba person from Ijebu.

Pursuing Biafra or Oduduwa republic doesn't mean we should begin to rewrite the history of the past.

Whilst we look forward to a better Nigeria or Biafra, the authenticity of history of the past have to be preserved for future generations, otherwise they will be feed lies and fabrications as history.

AreaFada2:
Word on marble.

People believe all empires worked like the British and European ones did. Ottoman empire perhaps had more in common with Benin Empire. Aside Ottoman spreading religion.

Ottoman Empire spanned the Middle East, parts of Eurasia, Eastern Europe, North Africa and parts of the Mediterranean.

But never really enforced Turkish language. Not even on related Turkic tribes in Eurasia. Even with the benefit of their written language.

The European colonialists had suffered famines, they needed food, some of their seafarers were adventurers, some even became pirates. They wanted to loot, subjugate and make much wealth.
Benin didn't need or want all that.

Benin only wanted to be the elite to run the affairs of new lands. The language also remained language of the Imperial elite at the centre.

Benin always had the idiom "Gie no z'eka gha z'eka. Ama z'evbuomwan ta wiri. Meaning let every man speak his language. A man who lost his language is lost.

Benin didn't have that inhumanity to disposess people of things thought fundamental to them. Benin operated at a very high level of administrative, military, philosophical, artistic, organisational and social acumen than Europeans thought African people deep in the rainforest area were capable of when they arrived.

Oba Esigie was baptised in 1504. Just prior to becoming king. Same period of first Benin Embassy in Lisbon, Portugal.

The 1515 Benin-Idah war was well documented by the Portuguese. Officially the first West African king to be baptised. Baptised good about 30 years before Anglican church began the schism from the Catholic church.

Loyalty from new subjects was most important to Benin. Not taking their land, fundamental freedoms, property or language from them. Two independent writings are examples. Olaudah Equianoh identified himself as an Ibo and citizen of Benin Kingdom in 1700s. He wrote about how the inhumanity of the Europeans to slaves never was in his homeland.

About same period a French explorer and trader Monsieur Randolphe narrated that on his way from Benin City to Gwatto Port, of about 100 slaves on sale along the way, both slaves and their sellers were either Igbo or Yoruba.

Supporting the already known fact that Benin had banned slave trade. But other ethnic groups in the empire settled with the King to allow them buy and sell themselves. But no Benin person was allowed to buy or sell slaves and no Benin person could be bought or sold. Although the King was reluctant, he decided to grant them that freedom of trade.

It's obvious many who argue here on NL have little knowledge of history. Never mind comparative history spanning classical history to to the mid 20th century.

If they had they would know that empires at different times and locations used slightly different methods. Including their religious, cultural or other unique and peculiar aspects.

Well stated.

And this lack of how different empires operated and little knowledge of history is why they keep questioning how the present day Benin with her size and population was able to extend her influence deep into the territory of the so called bigger tribes.

Perhaps most of them are not even aware that Rome, now a small city in Italy once ruled most European countries and beyond.

Unlike in Europe where the people study their history for what it is, our so called big tribes are attempting to rewrite centuries old well established history, even the history of the Nigeria civil war that occurred in 1960s with many of the actors still alive is being rewritten and fabricated to suit individual narratives.

MelesZenawi:
The geography doesn't in any correlate your claim and history has never in any laid credence to such.

But Benin/Yoruba is highly undebatable..and historical facts conflicting with no end. So it is safe to say they are one people with different names. Same origin.

What you see as historical facts conflicting started most recently by the Yorubas trying to rewrite their history as a unified one to make themselves look good.

Before 1897 when the British invaded and put an end to the old Benin empire, everyone knows where they stand.

The well documented History of Benin for centuries made no reference to Yoruba or Igbo as a unified tribe or one people because these tribes didn't always exist as one.

That is not to say that Benin did not interacted with some tribes in the West and East who are now part of the larger Yoruba and Igbo groups.

In dealing with Benin/Yoruba relationship, you have to look at it from the position of Benin relationship with the individual tribes in other not to muddle things up and confuse yourself.

There are the Benin/Akure relationship, Benin/Ekiti Relationship, Benin/Lagos relationship, etc.

Same with Benin/ various Igbo tribes relationship and Benin/ middle belt or North relationships.

These relationships varied depending on how cooperative or rebellious and close proximity to Benin.

Today, you will see someone whose former tribe be it Igbo or Yoruba had a nominal relationship with Benin, now arguing that Benin kingdom didn't extend their influence to Igbo land or Yoruba land.

You will see, a now member of the wider Igbo tribe arguing Benin/Onitsha relationship with prominent Onitsha indigines, same way someone from formerly little known Yoruba tribes will argue Lagos/Benin relationship with prominent Lagos indigines including the Oba of Lagos himself.

It's easy for an Igbo person to get confused seeing all these Benin/Yoruba debates online because the Yorubas of today makes it look like they used to be one big unified tribe for centuries.

Imagine reading about Benin/Oyo relationship which is different from Akure/Benin relationship which is different from Benin/Lagos relationship but all being presented as one history.

You could read an account about how Benin once beheaded an Oba from one Yoruba tribe from the indigines of that place themselves only for you to see another person from a different Yoruba tribe jumps in to shout this person down saying it never happened.

When Oba of Lagos and most of his white cap chiefs says that they are from Benin, you will see someone from Ogbomosho jumps in to argue that they don't know what they are saying.

Back to similarities between old Benin kingdom people and Yoruba, Igbo and Northerners.

Depending on where you a looking from, a Yoruba man can easily mistake a Benin man to be an Igbo man, numerous Yorubas initially thought I am Igbo until I correct them and some of them don't see the difference between Benin and Igbo

Same as some Igbos mistaking Benin to be Yorubas.

Even some Nigerians will mistake Edo North people to be Northerners because of their names and Islamic religion.

These are the consequences of being an empire, there will always be cultural overlaps from interaction from various tribes that the empire came into contact with.

This is the reason Benin is more diverse in terms of people, food, music, culture etc.

Benin is a mini Nigeria and probably the most liberal city in Nigeria, if in doubt, ask the various tribes that resides there. Tribalism is near zero.

ghostwon:
They (the yar.riba) already hanged themselves the moment they started discussing fairytales in the middle of a history discussion.
Refuse to be dragged to their level, refuse to discuss fairytales.
The fact is the yar.iba have no facts, no actual history, so they can't have a rational, logical, proof based debate about history.
Their only survival line is to drag the debate into illogical territory. Sentiments and fairytales.
These guys are a result of Nigeria's poor educational system, tribal biggotry and unlimited internet access which allows fools to speak with confidence and to be heard way more than they used to in the pre-internet world.

You can only imagine if these guys had access to world institutions that houses Benin world acclaimed records and achievements.

No matter what they come up with, there is very little they can do to undo or even diminished past Benin glories and greatness.

Where are they going to start from, is it to discredit the Benin moat that even surpassed any human structure ever built by man on planet earth at that time or is it the numerous art works that adores museums across the world, from Europe, Canada, America and Australia to mention a few.

Apart from these fabrication and distortions of Benin history online, what else do you really expect from this guys.

Imagine growing up to read in your history how Benin once decimated your land and beheaded your Obas and ruled over your land and people for whatever reason for centuries until the British came to liberate your people, what will you do, especially when you can't physically avenge the past.

Would you not also resort to the only weapons within your reach to piss and shit all over their history, would you not be angry that no matter what you write, there are still aspects of their history that are beyond reach.

What will you and can you do about their art works across the world still showcasing their greatness in far away lands to people of today and yet unborn, the moat, the greatest fit by any race, numerous documents in European archives spanning hundreds of years detailing eye witness accounts of their past glories and greatness, the bight of Benin, an international body of water carrying the name of Benin as a mark of recognition for it's greatness. Today, a country also bears the name Benin.

We sometimes have to allow these people to enjoy themselves online as a feel good factor.

There is a saying in Benin that after you beat up a child, you don't or shouldn't also deny the child the opportunity to cry.

TAO11:
(1) Your argument which you're trying hard to defend here is as follows:

"Igodomigodo ... was the name (of the land) ... during the reign of Oba Eweka 1".

The so-called evidence you're now bringing forward to supposedly defend it is as follows:

"The Ubini period, this is the period beginning with Eweka the first in 1100s AD. Some people believe that the name came about when Oranmiyan ... , left ... in anger ..., calling it Ile-Ibinu ..."

How do you not see that your so-called evidence contradicts what you had intend it to support??

In other words, you just admitted (without knowing) that I was right when I rubbished your "Orun Oba Igodomigodo" proposition. Lol


(2) Regarding your second point:

Wait, why do you Edo Nairalanders often assume that the Yorubas originally meant to say Edo when we talk of Orun Oba Ado??

This assumption is annoying, sickening, and nauseous. Y'all should stop assuming!

Now listen carefully: When the Yorubas say Ado in relation to your land, we do not intend to say Edo. Ado is what we just said. Gosh!

If you want to know why, then that's a separate issue. You ask!

Moreover, I will be patiently waiting for the historical evidence with which you supported your imaginatibe side point on Ado-Ekiti.


(3) The Ado you mentioned in your point (3) here is not even the name of a place of a person.

The point you've brought up here is so unrelated to the issue at hand by humdreds of years.

How did you even get to this?

Oh, just in case you didn't know, the King Ado of Lagos here is not even a Bini. To be emphatic, he is Yoruba --- full blooded Awori-Yoruba man of direct Ife royal descent.

But this is a side-point. Do not cease this as an opportunity to distract.

Lets face the burial issue squarely for now!

I believe we have now finally gotten to the point that you are now arguing the history of Lagos monarchy with the Oba of Lagos. I believe we have now come full circle.

gregyboy:
The truth is the yorubas are themselves finding a source of history for themselves at the present world lucky Benin had interaction with, they saw it as a means to milk out any possible form of history to suit their aims and which they find it out not easy because esosa history is well detailed, I envy the toaf of a guy, tho he is left with empty and watering history by his people he had gone miles by reading both his people history and that of the esosa history to help him in his quest I acknowledged him for that if only we had an edo person who would do the-same it will go along way stopping any further misconceptions from distorters of edo history

2) ife only became popular in Yoruba history because of the connection with Benin same would be said by oduduwa the way the yorubas adorn oduduwa without any tangible credit than having a connection with Benin , oduduwa was not the first king or the last or even the progenitor of the Yoruba race but its popularity can only be attributed to Benin connection amongst the Yoruba if he had no connection with edo people he would have never have an history on his own

3) the issue of every Yoruba clan coming directly from ife speaks nothing but rewriting and a watery history of the Yoruba people , no sort of interclan migration amongst them

4) Orun oba ado which is scientifically and literally wrong the excavation on the site of Orun oba ado was empty no heads or body was found on the site and yet they still parade it , when it’s al cleared out

It's laughable that their supposed past glories and greatness is always based on their the Benin told the European so. No written documentation of eye witness accounts. No evidence to reference other than fabrications.

When I stated that the Benin people built the greatest man made structure on earth, the Benin moat, 4 times the great wall of China, I provided a link to the Guinness book of world records as evidence.

If you asked for concrete evidence of their past exploits, they will be looking for Benin history to spin out of context.

They hardly say anything tangible without the mention of Benin in some ways for validity.

They believe that the authenticity of ones history is based on land mass and population size.

ghostwon:
Yes, I get you.
I just wish the Nigerian educational system wasn't so backward and actually made people become smarter and more knowledgeable. That is not the case. History is absent from Nigerian schools (I mean impartial proof based history, not the usual story story Nigerians love to spread). If Nigerian schools taught history well, then all these Yoruba trolls would not be trying to rewrite history in broad daylight. All this is just a consequence of Nigeria's backwardness.

At times all you have to do is throw in few baits here and there, draw them in and then give them the rope to hang themselves.

ghostwon:
You are joining them in the fairytale discussion ?
All these stories including oduduwa, oranmiyan, ogiso, igodomigodo...are mere fairytales which were created sometime in colonial Nigeria and had never been heard of before.
You should ask the guy to prove his claims rather than the questions which you are asking, it is very easy for the Yoruba guys to create spin off stories to fill in the gap and answer your question (with new lies).

You don't offer a liar the opportunity to tell more lies, you confront him about the absurdity of his stories and the lack of proof. You remain logical to the letter.

I thought he would have realised that by now, at times, one is forced to engage because of those that may be interested in authentic history but are less informed.

The danger is, if you allow this guys to carry on unchallenged, their audiences may think they are saying the truth.

lx3as:
Olofin Ogunfuminire (the leader of Aworis) left Ìfẹ palace to establish what we call Lagos now. His children, great grandchildren are still the land owners of Lagos up till now. The great grandchild of Oranmiyan called Ado was brought to Lagos by Ilajes and Itsekiris, he and his grand children have very little land in Iga Idugaran (in Island lga out of 20 LGAs & 57 LCDAs in Lagos state)

Are you saying the descendants of your Olofin gave birth to the Lagos monarchy and the second Oba of Lagos, Oba Ado. If not what are the names of Ife/Awori Obas of Lagos before the Benin annexed Eko/Lagos and established the monarchy.

Since according to your earlier submission, Ado is synonymous with the people and areas Ife princes established, why is Lagos and all other places in Yoruba land that claim Ife ancestry not called Ado

Does it not make more sense to you that any place in Yoruba land with the word or name Ado is referencing the past relationship that place had with Benin in the past. Towns such as Ado Ekiti and Oba Ado of Lagos. Same as Onitsha N' Idu reference of Benin.

The word Ado has nothing to do with Ife princes establishing anything.

And this your grandson of Oranmiyan the Itsekiri brought to Lagos that was given land by the Aworis. Where did he come from, who sent him to Lagos and to go and do what on whose order.

I believe we are now getting closer to my earlier submission, in which I stated that some of you latter day Yoruba historians think you are so versed in Yoruba revisionist history, that you are ready to argue the history of Lagos monarchy with the Oba of Lagos.

lx3as:
The point is that many places Ìfẹ princes went to in those days were called Ado, Ido, etc (meaning, we establish, we arrive, etc). When Oranmiyan arrived Igodomigodo, The land and the people simply and naturally became Ado to the Ìfẹ/Yorubas. Notwithstanding, Oranmiyan himself called the land 'Ile Ibinu' when leaving the place, and that's where 'Bini, Benin' came from. Although the Igodomigodo people were not initially calling themselves the Oranmiyan given name; the Itsekiris told the Portuguese the name and they corrupted it to what we have today.

Which of the Ife prince went and Established Lagos considering that Oba Ado who reigned from 1630-1669 was the second Oba of Lagos. He was son of Ashipa, whom the Oba of Benin appointed as the first ruler of Eko. Ado's son, Gabaro was the third Oba of Lagos.

TAO11:
I noticed you added a few more lines to your comment.

Anyways, it's Orun not Oru, but that's by the way.

Also, the word Oba and the name Igodomigodo cannot possibly appear on the same line, if you know what that means.

Moreover, provide me your evidence that the kingdom still remained Igodomigodo during the Oba dynasty. Lol.

You may as well argue that Eweka 1 took the title, Ogiso.

Cheers!

Various periods of Benin history.

The people of the east who are now referred to as the Igbos still call Benin and the people of Benin, Idu and this shows a much ealier contact with Benin.

Benin / Edo have gone through various phases in her history and was called different names at different periods.

Idu period

The earliest recorded leader of the Edo people was Pa Idu and in his period, the land and people was referred to as Idu. I am sure some of you would have come in contact with the name Onitsha N' Idu.

There is the Idu shrine in Benin City that all Obas of Benin still go to propitiate the spirit/ancestors of Idu. Pa Idu is remembered is numerous other ways, in names of Streets, areas, people's names and surnames, etc.

Arka period

After the period of Idu was the Arka period, the Urhobos preferred to refer to Benin by this name. There is also the Ogbe-Laka areas of Benin City which existed from this period.

Igodomigodo period

Then the Igodomigodo period, this is the period the Benin came into contact with Ife through the last Ogiso Owodo's son who was banished and Igodomigodo people believe he went to Ife and became the Ooni.

Ubini period

The Ubini period, this is the period beginning with Eweka the first in 1100s AD. Some people believe that the name came about when Oranmiyan whose father the Ooni sent to Igodomigodo at the request of the people, left after just 3 months in anger because he couldn't cope with the constant quarrels and fighting in the land, calling it Ile-Ibinu which later became Ubini, there is another school of thought that disproves this origin of the name Ubini but I will no go into that.

Benin period

The Benin period, when the Portuguese visited Benin in th 1400s AD they anglicised Ubini to Benin.

Edo / Ado period

The Edo period which the Yorubas call Ado. Oba Ewuare the great changed the name of the land to Edo in the 1400s AD after he ascended the throne. Numerous contact were made with the people of the west who later become the Yorubas.

It was after this period, places such as Ado Ekiti became prominent.

Oba Ado who reigned from 1630-1669 was the second Oba of Lagos. He was son of Ashipa, whom the Oba of Benin appointed as the first ruler of Eko. Ado's son, Gabaro was the third Oba of Lagos.

Various people depending on the period of contact with Benin continue to refer to Benin and her people with different names.

Back to the Orun Oba Ado at Ife.

It would have made more sense and perhaps more convincing if the place was named Orun Oba Ile-Ibinu or Ubini because this is the name Benin was known by at this period in the 1100s AD by Yoruba people.

The name Edo/Ado did not come into existence until much later in the 1400s AD

The people trying to forge / twist Benin history to boost the relevance and histories of their former little villages and hamlets will always run into problems because Benin history is too vast and well established.

You can now see why the purported burial site of the Obas of Benin in Ife is fake and can't be true because the name of the site Orun Oba Ado could have only come into existence during or after the reign of Oba Ewuare the great, the 13th Oba of Benin.

Like I already told you Oba Ewuare the great himself decreed that he should be buried in his mother's village of Esi near Udo. His grave/shrine is still there for those interested in history.

Benin itself is history and history is Benin. There are too many reference points in Benin that forgery and fabrications can easily be verified and dismissed.

Almost every inch of Benin represents historical accounts of events with landmarks.

TAO11:
I'm not sure how Ogiso ties in to my pointi!!

I'm not sure who how Igodomigodo ties in to my point.

And I'm not sure how Edo ties into my point!!

You remain your incoherent and irrelevant self, gregyboy.

Oh, or are you trying to relate all these to the phrase Orun Oba Ado.??

Don't you think it would have made more sense if the fabricators had simply called that site Oru Oba Igodomigodo because this was the name Benin was known by during the reign of Oba Eweka 1, son of Oranmiyan.

gregyboy:
I had already told you it's a lost battle for you before you even began

Benin was known as edo during oba ewuare reign and not during the time of ogiso when edo stepped into ife if any name could be use identify edo people in ife it would be ogodomigodo and not edo which is later
Arhun oba ado is a false conspiracy by tge yorubas to distort edo history

Good point, Benin was actually known as Igodomigodo when it came into contact with Ife and not Ado which was later derived from Edo, a name given to the kingdom by Oba Ewuare the great in the 1400s.

TAO11:
My question to you was: No skulls found implies what??

I'm not sure why you're shying away from giving a direct answer to my question.

Anyways, since you've repeatedly avoided giving a direct answer, I think it's fair if to assume that your answer is as follows:

No skulls found implies no skulls buried.

And that's a false/illogical conclusion.

The conclusion is false/illogical because it assumes that there are no other logical possibilities for why skulls couldn't be found today.

(1) Yes, if skulls weren't buried, then skulls won't be found today.

(2) But also, if skulls were exhumed soon after burial for ascension rites for example, then skulls wont be found today.

While you haven't provided a shred of historical data to support case (1) as the actual scenario, I have historical data refuting case (1), and I also have astounding evidence supporting case (2) as the actual scenario.

Having said that the objective of Willett's excavation of Orun Oba Ado was not particularly to verify skulls or not.

And regarding your video about the wall of Benin, which of my argument so far are you refuting with that video?

Stop the distraction!

If you know what it takes and the process involve in the ancient burials of Obas of Benin, you guys will not come up with that fabrication that their bodies or head was taken all the way to Ife for burial.

Do you know the distance between Benin and Ife by foot to be transporting a decomposing body or head of the Oba of Benin, Benin people earthly God.

The site in question in Ife has been excavated and no human bones found.

Out of the 38 Benin Obas that have joined their ancestors, only 4 were not buried in Benin

1. Oba Ewuare the great, 13th Oba of Benin (1440AD - 1073AD) because he decreed that his body should be taken to his mother's villages of Esi, near Udo.

2. Oba Orhogbua 18th Oba of Benin (about 1550AD - 1575AD), a sailor king who drowned on his way back from the newly founded Eko (Lagos)

3. Oba Akenkpaye, 24th Oba of Benin (about 1675AD-1684AD)
His rebellious chiefs, for abuse of power, corruption, and selfishness, dethroned him. He was banished to his mother's village of Obanosa where he died and was buried.

4. Oba Ovonramwen Nogbaisi, 36th Oba of Benin (1888AD–1897AD) died and buried in Calabar.

The remaining 34 were all buried in Benin, no head was taken to Ife.

As for the Benin wall, you promised to get back to me but I decided to save you the embarrassment by sharing the link.

gregyboy:
I wanted to embarass him publicly and personally but you did a great job tho

He seems to have run away.