₦airaland Forum

TAO11:
Because it's glaringly annoying that you're a liar. Why did you want me to shield you?


You referenced an unknown, brother Michael Uchbuaku, who supposedly was quoting Ulsheimer (1603). --- but turns out to be a missattribution.

While I referenced an historian, R. Smith who quoted Ulsheimer (1603).


You turned around to say that you cited a 1603 doc. and that I cited a 1969 doc. ---- What does that me? It means that you just called me a lair while that itself is a lie from you.

But somehow you hope to be shielded and not called out for double lies.

No we don't do that here.

You can't be the judge in your own submission unless you take the audience for idiots that can't think for themselves.

Present your evidence and allow your opponent to do same without name calling.

The unbiased and neural audiences from other tribes will read both evidences and make their own conclusions.

TAO11:
Because you lie and you hate to be called out for it. Stupid fatuous lies for that matter.

It drives you mad when your lies are busted.


It's one of two things. If you hate to be busted, then stop lying. You can't have both.

It's not up to you to call a person a liar, present your case and leave the rest to the unbiased audience to determine who the liar is.

You are not the one to tell other tribes that your opponent is lying, they can see the evidence for themselves.

TAO11:
You are a dummy who lives a lie. You will be exposed to the end and shred.


To clarify for those interested in truth:

You (samuk) referenced a certain unknown brother Michael Uchebuaku who said he was quoting Ulsheimer 1603.


I (TAO11) referenced a renowned historian R, Smith who was quoting Ulsheimer 1603.


And thus did I expose your slyness with dates.




And we see that your brother Michael said Ulsheimer said: 1603 LAGOS (as a whole) was inhabited ONLY by Benin soldiers.


Whereas R. Smith said Ulsheimer said: 1603 LAGOS (as a whole) was a resort for all kind of traders coming by water and land.


I just shamed a liar and deceiver as I always do.

You are irredeemable, you begin to throw insults around after losing the debate and arguments, not only are you a tribal bigot but also from the gutter.

You can't help yourself, you can hardly string few words together without an insult.

And for a woman?

This is exactly what I warned AgboAto about when he started referring to people like you as educated, maybe your so called education can be put in context of the wider meaning of education to the Yorubas.

I leave your character for the audience to judge.

TAO11:
The same R. Smith continued to clarify citing the Lagos tradition that:

"The early traditions of Lagos ascribe the peopling of this sandy waste near the edge of the ocean to a small scale-migration of Awori Yoruba, who first settled under the leadership of a hunter named Ogunfunminire about twelve miles near the River Ogun at Isheri ... .Ogunfunminire is said to have been a member of the royal house of Ife ..."

R. Smith Kingdoms of theYoruba (1969), p.73.

I cited an eyewitness account of Lagos in 1603.

You cited a report of 1969.

Until you disproved everything I wrote about the report of 1603 by producing and pointing out in the report where I lie, I leave our audience/other tribes to reach their own conclusions.

You can't wake up in 1969 and say that what was said in 1603 was a lie.

TAO11:
Again this is the kind of Benin lies and twisting that annoys me.

What I have observed is that, you are so confident that your Benin followers are gullible and dumb.


But I wont back off in exposing you as a fraud who is bent on "defending" himself or his kingdom with LIESSSSS!


No where did I ever call Ulsheimer's report a Lie. I challenge you to point out where I ever did.

So I take it that Andreas Joshua Ulsheimer report about what he saw in Lagos in 1603 is correct.

In 1603, Andreas Joshua Ulsheimer, a German surgeon, aboard a Dutch merchant ship, visited Lagos. According to his accounts, Lagos was a large frontier town surrounded by a strong fence and inhabited by "none but soldiers and four military commanders, who behave in a very stately manner."

The Lagos visited by Ulsheimer and his trading colleagues nearly four centuries ago was in many ways highly developed. Each day its four commanders came together as a court and each day two envoys were dispatched to take decisions back to their ruler in Benin. To do so, Ulsheimer wrote, was a common practice in all towns under the suzerainty of Benin…

TAO11:
Stop drawing emotional support and alliance.

Let people think by themselves and decide based on the evidences.

Are you implying that these people can't make up their minds without being conjured to do so.

TAO11:
You hid the above modified part of your comment without indicating that it was modified.

(1) Regarding your claim of Lagos monarchy aligning with the Benin:

If what you meant here is that the progenitor of the current Eko monarchy was a Bini man through some (imaginary) conquest. Then you deceived yourself as that is FALSE and contradicted both by the Lagos account as well as observational evidence till date.

Again the Lagos account states clearly that the progenitor of the current Eko dynasty is Ashipa an Awori-Yoruba man.


But if what you meant is that the current Eko dynasty has a lot of cultural borrowing of Bini origin because of latter heavy Benin presence and some incidental politics which I am happy to discuss if you're humble enough to learn, then Yes.


(2) Except that you haven't provided any evidence. The most attempt you made at providing device was to quote a nobody whom no one knows --- where such nobody pretends to be citing Ulsheimer.

In contrast, I have referenced an historian R. Smith (1969) who mentioned the Aeori account of Ashipa being an Awori-Yoruba and where this historian debunked your unknown authority's misrepresentation of Ulsheimer.

And the so-called bystanders (whom you're trying desperately hard to woo emotionally instead of intellectually) are actually witness to the proceeding as I have noted here. lol

Cheers!

The current Oba of Lagos have consistently made public statements calling the Oba of Benin his father not some Awori.

You can spin that anyhow you like.

MelesZenawi:
Hmmmmmmmm

This debate and arguments would have been worthless without people like you.

We are not here to convince the Yorubas who may have already made up their minds but those of you from other tribes who may be misinformed.

TAO11:
Lol. I have told you to stop pretending to have some knowledge in the hope that snippets of information will be revealed to you during the exchange. Admit what you don't know and ask unashamedly.



Having said that: You have made reference to a certain unknown Micheal Uchebuaku who cited Josua Ulsheimer, and I have debunked where he lied and noted where he was quite correct.

I noted (while referencing the historian R. Smith who cited Josua Ulsheimer) that the correct representation is that the Island part of Lagos was where the Bini armies stationed in contrast to what you had first presented that NONE BUT soldiers of Benin lived in LAGOS (as a whole).

You then returned saying I should disprove you by providing Ulseimer's report --- argument ad ignorantiam. Lol

What about you provide Ulseimer's report to support your own claim which you cited from your unknown inconsequential "authority" Michael Uchebuaku lol.

Did you realize that I actually made full reference (with page number) to an actual historian who cited Ulsheimer himself ??



It's only on Nairaland that a commenter insist to be right unless being proven wrong. No, you have to prove your self right --- the onus is on you. you are not right because you're ignored.

Moreover, I did prove you wrong by referencing R. Smith who cited Ulsheimer as follows:

(a) That the ISLAND part of "LAGOS" was where the Benin men camped.

(b) That LAGOS (whole) was a trade resort for traders coming by land and water.

Smith also mentioned the Lagos account which states clearly that:

(c) Asipa --- an Aworis-Yoruba man of Ife descent --- was the progenitor of the present dynasty.

You are the one that call the report lie, how would you know that the report is lie without seeing it.

If you have seen it, then present it and point out where it was misrepresented to shame your opponent.

TAO11:
You are talking about an account, by Josua Ulsheimer, that doesn't say what you claimed it says. And you expect not to be called out for it??

If you have the report of Andreas Joshua Ulsheimer 1603 visit to Lagos, present it and point out where I misrepresented what he said for all to see.

That is the best form of defence rather than name calling.

TAO11:
Sop lying. You know I hate all these baseless Benin lies with a passion.

You seem to be replying just for the hope of being seen by others to be writing something. There is nothing in your reply here which is not a repetition already debunked in the same comment you're replying to.




No where did I or any such report say "THE PLACE" was inhabited by "NO ONE ELSE" but soldiers.

It simply talks about the Island part of Lagos (in 1603 that is during a period characterized by conflict between the autochthonous people and the aliens ) as the base for the aliens' armies -- led by the Binis.

The aliens group comprising largely of the Binis, but also comprising of the Ijebus, the Ilaje, the Ikale, the Owo, the Egba, the Egbado, the Aja, and the Ijaw.


Were you blind to where the same account of Ulsheimer I alluded to talks about Lagos (the whole -- not just the Island part now) being resort of traders "coming by water and land"??

--- "Josua Ulsheimer" cited in R. Smith, Kingdoms of the Yoruba (1969), p.74.

And yes, the Benis not only send back report to their Oba but also remitted tax back home from their trade gains abroad. This is their practice wherever they settled. The four generals were general over the Benin and other minority alien fighters).


Well, except that there was the old Olofin dynasty in place which was the precursor to the present dynasty. You seem to know nothing about what's going on here. You fell.


You can't learn by exchanging on the pretense of knowing in the hope that snippets of information will be reveled to you by your interlocutor.

No, it doesn't go that way. You either ground yourself before coming for a debate; or you directly ask unashamedly about what the Lagos account says in details, and I will be happy to provide such information.

Like I already said my submissions are for wider consumption.

You are free to present your counter narratives without calling anyone lying and allow the general public to make up their minds.

TAO11:
First of all, again, stop pretending to be cool and civil. You're not in any way because I know you too. We've had many exchange on this same platform where you rolled over in the mud n@ked. I can literally pull out many instances. Even your comment here still shows traces of your insanity, as I have boldened some of it, despite your pretense of saneness

If you want to put all that behind you and turn over a new leaf going forward, then that's a different question. But to want to comtinue to be the nice guy or victim only after you got served while the game was on is absolutely unacceptable.

Having said that, I knew you will be triggered to hear that that there is a certain account (known in academia as the Lagos account) which debunks the claims of the Benin account that Aṣípa was a son or grandson of the then Oba of Benin.

Again, the Lagos (or Awori) account states clearly and unmistakenly that Aṣípa (the actual paternal progenitor of the Eko monarchy) was an Awori-Yoruba of Ife royal descent.

In the course of your response you committed two disgraceful logical fallacies, namely:

(1) The Red Herring Fallacy and (2) The Strawman Fallacy.

I will let you find out what those mean.


Moving on ... My key argument on the Lagos/Benin connection were two:

(1) That there were although clashes but having absolutely nothing to do with imperial conquest or domination of the authochtonous people. And that rather, the clashes were between the indigenous people (the Aworis on one hand) and the latter resident trading community of Benin et al. on the other hand over some trade disputes.

(2) That the Eko monarchy was of an indigenous origin via Aṣípa from Isheri who is Awori-Yoruba of Ife royal descent.

In light of this two contention which I have set out to defend (and which you pretend to be responding to), can you then point out which part of your comment addressed any of these two points let alone debunk them??

(A) Is it where you mentioned that an European visitor to "Lagos" in 1603 (presumably the German Andreas Joshua Ulsheimer) noted them a group of unnamed people sends some reports back to their Benin overlord --- a statement which clearly shows a non-sequitur fallacy and for which didn't even bother to provide reference??


(B) Is it where you called on SilverSniper for help??


(C) Is it the internet review of a certain unknown and hence inconsequential Michael Uchebuaku where he LIED of a strong fence surrounding his imaginary Lagos.

The most that Joshua said in his 1603 was that the "Lagos" he saw was full of diverse traders coming "by water and land", thus corroborating my allusion to the trade-induced conflict between the indigenous people the Aworis (which R. Smith also mentioned) on one hand vs. the alien resident trading communities on the other hand.

The most that Ulsh said whjch this your unknkwn "authority", Mich said quite well is that, the Island part of the "Lagos" he visited in 1603 was where the soldiers of the alien community --- led by Binis pitched their own tent, as opposed to the authochtonous whom they were in incessant battles with.

In fact, to burst your bubble, 1603 was a year when the present dynasty of Eko had not even yet began let alone pay tribute to any Benin kindom. Lol.

It was a year characterized by series of incessant trade-induced violence between the Aworis on one hand and the alien resident traders lled lrimarily by the Binis) on the other hand. It was in one of these incessant conflicts that Asheru (the leader of the Benin army) was killed.

You are too emotional, where did I say or did the report I presented say that Lagos current dynasty was in place by 1603.

Where did I say anything about tributes being paid.

Infact your submission seems to support the European eye witness account of 1603.

His report said, the place was inhabited by no one else but soldiers.

Every day, four commanders come together to form a court.

Their reports were sent to their rulers in Benin..

This suggests to me that the current ruling dynasty was not yet in place for four commanders to be forming a court.

The report did not say anything about a king or ruler being in place.

Haven't said that, the history of the Lagos monarchy by the Oba of Lagos and his chiefs align with Benin and not your Awori story.

Note, I don't present my submission to convince you or any other Yoruba that would have made up their minds already irrespective of the evidence, my submissions are for the benefits of none bias independent bystanders from other tribes.

davidnazee:
Shut up and read this article from one of your uncles...


An editorial by a renowned Yoruba professor and historian.

Vanguard (Lagos)
EDITORIAL
July 7, 2004
Posted to the web July 7, 2004

The origin of the Benin and Yoruba empires of old have come to the fore and they have been subject of intense debate.
No doubt the origins of the two empires are obscure being deeply buried in legend and mythology and it is not easy to say what amount of history or the amount of embellished history they contain. In truth these traditions which on the surface try to account for the origin of these empires are perhaps little more than ideological chatters legitimizing the political systems, traditions, cultures, etc. of the people. This general position not withstanding, it is worthy of note that the Benin through their well renowned Arts and Craft recorded their history and event in addition to the account of the guild of oral recorders. The most contentious of this debate for now, however, is the Benin-Ife historical connection.

Many historians and social anthropologists especially the Yoruba historians have been greatly impressed by the tradition that the Yoruba Kingdom fathered the second Benin empire. According to Prof. A.B.Aderibigbe, "obviously there is an attempt in this story to gloss over what in fact was an alien imposition." Along the same line, Prof Michael Growder said that this tradition could be "a convenient legend to disguise what in fact was a conquest by the Oduduwa party".

Here however, the following points are worthy of note: First the Ife-Benin connection has been vigorously questioned by Prof. A.F.C. Ryder. He had pointed out that this tradition which seeks to connect Benin with Ife is suspect. He argues that throughout four centuries of contact between Benin and various European nations, in particular Portugal, there was no hint or reference to this relationship between the two empires. The tradition was not mentioned or recorded by any writer until after the British occupation of Benin in 1897. He also pointed out that the city of Ife is believed to be younger than Benin and therefore could not have fathered the second Benin Empire.

Second, according to Prof Ryder, by 1485 Benin was an impressive and large city. Judging by the evidence of European visitors, it was perhaps the largest and most impressive city which the Portuguese saw along the west coast of Africa. Recent archaeological evidence would seem to indicate that Ife was built probably not before the first decade of the 16th century while the capital of old Oyo, Yatenga, was built much later. This would seem to show that the complex political system of the Yoruba which the Benin Kingdom is believed to have descended must have originated much later than the Benin Kingdom.

Third, much of the evidence which is believed to corroborate the claims made in the traditions comes from enthnohistory, that is, historical speculations based on assumed logical sequence of development in the political system. This is most unreliable.

By the 15th Century, the Benin Kingdom had achieved the height of its greatness. It remained the most powerful and the largest Kingdom in the forest region of West Africa until about the end of the first half of the 17 century. During these two centuries of its ascendancy Benin empire stretched as far west as Lagos, Badagry and Whyidah (Dahomey). On the north-west it stretched as far as Ekiti, Akure and Owo. Towards the north, it stretched to Ishan Country and the southern position of Idah. Finally on the east it incorporated at various times various portions of Ika-Ibo and as far as the River Niger.

Prof. Biobaku has suggested that the eastern fringe of what is now Yorubaland was in pre-Yoruba days thinly inhabited by the ancestors of the modern Benin people, a people which he called the Efa. And if recent archaeological evidence would seem to indicate that Ife was built not before the first decade of the 16th century thereby making it to be younger than Benin, then the Oranmiyan tradition has been miscon-strued and the Benin version (The Oba of Benin's version,), not Egharervba's version, becomes more tenable.

I didn't even realised that there is support for Oba Erediawa's version of Benin/Ife relationship from Yoruba professor and the suggestion that Ife may even be younger than Benin.

TAO11:
Bro, I think you must be very firm and especially clear with these lots on the aspect of Benin interaction on the Eastern Yoruba frontiers.

Their imaginations are so wild and twisted (for their delusions of grandeur) that one of them already began --- as is typical of them --- to assume "colonies". Gosh! They can't be helped.

A closer look at the evidence and sources in the light of subsequently clearer understanding of Benin and Eastern Yoruba history shows that the Benin relationships at the the Eastern Yoruba kingdoms are deeper and more complex than some authors have portrayed in the past.

For example, the Owo kingdom (prior to the reign of Olowo Osogboye) and the Benin kingdom had a sort of bilateral treaty. It was so deep that an Owo prince would live in the Benin palace until he became grown up and ready to rule. Osogboye at least did as a prince.

According to the Oore of Otun-Ekiti whom Professor Akintoye interviewed in the 1970s, the true picture was said to be that the Ekiti kingdoms and the Benin kingdom did not see each other as enemies.

He said clashes with Benin were very few and very far between that no generation of Ekiti people witnessed two of such, and that most generations saw none.

The two kingdoms regarded each other as "brothers", and he emphatically stressed that paying tribute to the Oba of Benin was out of the question. He also stressed that forming a coalition to fight him was also out of the question.

In Ado and Akure where really bloody battles occured, there were special factors at work far away and distinct from the usually imagined one-sided Benin territorial expansionist narrative.

[They have a similar kind of one-sided account for Lagos too forgetting that two kingdoms are involved here, and that we also have our own indigenous account known in academia as the Lagos account (aka the Awori account) which contradicts their own account on very important details (e.g. on the identity of Aṣípa as an Awori prince from Isheri who is of direct Ife royal descent). R. Smith (1969) contains both this Awori account and the Benin Account. S. Akintoye (2010) also does]

The context of the Ado, Akure and even the Lagos bloody clashes were trade/commercial activities between the autochtonous people on one hand, and the Benin resident trading community/other minority resident trading communities on another hand.

There were other minor skirmishes, kidnappings, clashes, etc. no doubt --- some clashes of which Benin troops were routed and their military chiefs slaughtered.


You may refer to to S. Akintoye's "A History of the Yoruba People", (2010) Chapter 11 on "The Frontier Effect".

This encyclopedic research work of about 3 decades examines the evidences more closely using the products of the latest research on the subject.

And it has immense invaluable contributions from a galaxy of eminent scholars and pathfinder in the field of African History such as:

(1) Dr. J. F. Ade Ajayi (Emeritus Professor of History, University of Ibadan)

(2) Dr. Elisee Soumonni (Professor of History, Department of African History and Archaeology, National University of Benin at Abomey-Calavi, Benin-Republic)

(3) Dr. R. C. C. Law (Professor of African history, Stirling University, Scotland)

(4)Dr. Toyin Falaola (The Frances Higginbotham Nalle Centennial Professor in History, University of Texas at Austin)

(5) Dr Funso Afolayan (Associate Professor of History and African Studies, University of New Hampshire, Durham)

(6) Dr. Adebayo Oyebade (Professor of History, Tennesse State University, Nashville).


Cheers!

If you keep you submission clean and learn not to engage in gutter languages, people with high level of public etiquette may want to engage you with their counter narratives and evidences that you may not be aware of on the subject matter or evidences you may have deliberately overlooked and down played due to your ethnic biases.

We all have our own biases that can affect our submissions, it's then left for the other tribes/audience to examine the various submissions and make their own unbiased independent conclusions.

On your Lagos/Benin relationship you just mentioned, you may not be aware that there was an actual independent eye witness accounts from a European that visited Lagos in 1603 and observed and recorded the proceedings Benin representatives in Lagos and said after the meetings to take decisions, their reports were always sent back to their Overlord in Benin.

I only research this information from the reference Silversniper presented in one of your exchanges. Though his submission was not about Benin/Lagos relationship.

In his piece, captioned Brief History of Lagos Island, Michael Uchebuaku, wrote on Yahoo Contributor Network “However, there is another account of Lagos before 1603 that comes from a Western visitor. In 1603, Andreas Joshua Ulsheimer, a German surgeon, aboard a Dutch merchant ship, visited Lagos. According to his accounts, Lagos was a large frontier town surrounded by a strong fence and inhabited by "none but soldiers and four military commanders, who behave in a very stately manner."

The Lagos visited by Ulsheimer and his trading colleagues nearly four centuries ago was in many ways highly developed. Each day its four commanders came together as a court and each day two envoys were dispatched to take decisions back to their ruler in Benin. To do so, Ulsheimer wrote, was a common practice in all towns under the suzerainty of Benin…

Ulsheimer's accounts seem to confirm Benin oral traditions of conquest and occupation of Lagos during the sixteenth century. How Oba Orhogbua of Benin (1550-1578) occupied the island of Lagos, established a military camp there and from that base waged wars on some people described as rebels against his authority, in the immediate interior. Ulsheimer gives the first account, documenting the transformation of Lagos from fishing camp to a trading centre, and from an autonomous settlement to a Benin tributary. Lagos Lagoon was known to European traders by 1485, when it first appeared on maps, but the town of Lagos was not included.”

TAO11:
Shut and stop forming civil and cool after having been dragged severelly


Civility is beyond forest people. You acted insolently and you were dragged severelly for it. Do you need to be reminded?

It is only a question of a little time before OgboAto realizes what animal you are.

All he needs to bring out the Edo dog in you is to feed you with raw truth that you all hate to hear.

Truth like Oduduwa is a full-blooded Ife-Yoruba man; truth like "Izoduwa/Idoduwa/Imadoduwa" are the fictitious figment of the imagination of the 1970s Edo propagandist intelligentsia.

Truths like the Oba monarchy was introduced from Ife to scrap the "indigenous" Ogiso system.

Truths like the decapitated heads of your Obas being buried at Orun Oba Ado on every third reign.

Truth like your Oba regarding the Oonis of Ife as Oghene.

You all hate to here these for your weak self-esteem, but yet you all are quick to call others names.

You all won't even mind turning ironically on your Obas and call them names because they agree with our submissions. I have seen some of you do this. And I promise they'll be punished for it.

If you want to be civil, then be consistent. Not when it is only convinient for you to be so.

Nobody get monopoly of craze. I am educated doesn't mean I will sit back and watch you 'drool' all day.



If you must really bargain for fair treatment, then it must come with an unreserved apology for all your insolence, impropriety, and incivility. I am waiting.

Hopefully, OgboAto will be able to make for himself who the animal his around here.

I couldn't read beyond your insults because I don't have appetite for such.

Please look for your type to engage further.

It's a relief to know that there is someone like OgboAto around.

At least he hasn't shown himself to be on the same level like the rest of you so far.

OgboAto:
.

I am going to assume you're Edo.

First of all, if you compare the inputs of some of your people like Davidnazee, you'd see that you should not even think of the Yoruba commenters as illiterate or any adjective of that nature. Such terms should be reserved for the few poorly educated Edo whose only basis for engaging others is emotional from which they throw incoherent fits. I thin it is just you and Silversnipe who have been entirely different and made the back & forth worth it.

Secondly, the Bini didn't fight to 'protect' the peoples of eastern Yorubaland. They fought to protect their trade routes and their little colonial expansion into Yorubaland. They are records of an on & off battles between the Bini and the few towns in eastern Yorubaland they occupied.

Brb.

I am not comfortable throwing insults around, if you have the patience to scroll back to the very first reply I got from TAO11, she replied me with an insult which I warned her about and she apologised.

If you also looked at her initial replies to Silversniper, she was very provocative, condescending and insultive, she only tuned it down after I called her out on it.

There are a enough blames to go around on all sides.

My worry is, those that would have like to make genuine contributions and are here to learn new informations may be discouraged to do so.

Your reference about Benin having little colonial expansion into Yoruba land does not negate the fact I stated that these former little colonies as you put it, may still have people of Benin descendants that may be fighting themselves here thinking they are different people.

This was my way of asking everyone, albeit diplomatically to shield their swords and tuned down the foul languages and examine the submissions and evidences.

Being able to string some sentences in English does not neccessarily makes one educated and intelligent. It's the thinking ability that makes one intelligent.

My point is, to be careful how we ascribe education and cleverness to people based on ethnic biases even though cleverness and being educated can be put in context.

[quote author=OgboAto post=88340180]


Johnson was at no time a historian, he was a doctor who reduced Oyo history for Yoruba & his contemporary events to writing. The latter part containing data on the Ekitiparapo wars & the establishment of colonial government are regarded among the academic historians as solid.

Having said that, the only reason the early history of Ife [not necessarily the whole of Yoruba] appears not to add up is because the Oyo who had some of the early writers and close contacts with the European skewed history to give their throne a background for the fraudulent position they ascribed to it & have continued to struggle to sustain by citing archival documents about salary scale and signatures with the Europeans - former was based solely on population & the latter was based on Samuel Johnson factor as he acted as the Alaafin's interpreter/writer among other factors.

This misfired and baseless history was what Bini king attempted to provide an alternative for. There really is no problem to be resolved, everyone just needs to recognise that Oyo's history is not Yoruba's national history and certainly not the history of Ile-Ife.[/quote]


Samuk says

I don't believe we are saying different things by saying that Oyo history is not Yoruba's national history and certainly not the history of Ile-Ife.

Your other Yoruba folks around here are trying to portray Yoruba history as always being one in other to confuse the less informed and I believe they have alot to learn from people like yourself in this regard.

Like you have shown and admitted to, Oyo history and Ife history disagree on the origin of Oduduwa.

Yoruba people and history have not always been the same like some of your comrades here are making it to be.

I know you are sometimes forced to applaud their deliberate attempts to reverse the well known and well documented history of Benin and various Yoruba tribes.

From what I have seen from your submission, you are a world apart from these guys and you will be doing yourselves a great disservice to be referring to some of them as educated, at best they are educated illiterates steep in tribalism.

The beauty of all these debates, is that other tribes apart from the Yoruba and Edo, will have the opportunity to read for themselves, the various accounts from both sides and make an informed decision.

In the absence of history in our schools for our youngsters, threads like this becomes a veritable vehicle to teach our past histories.

Irrespective of the tribal bantering, there are enough irrefutable evidence and materials on this thread that can't just be wished away.

The funniest thing is that some of us here may even be related in some ways without knowing it.

Reading through the article provided by Davidnazee, written by your fellow Yoruba, the account of how Benin once populated eastern Yoruba land with Benin people and the constant interference of the Benin army to defend these people against their other Yoruba neighbours such as Ado, struck me.

Many years back, I read similar account from Bolaji Aloku, first VC of Otueke University.

The descendants of these people may even be here fighting their brothers without knowing it.

MetaPhysical:
Hahahahahaha...

They will soon be slaves of Igbo....slaves of Ijaw.

Anything to remove their enslavement under Yoruba. They have zero shame.

Why exactly would you have problems with this, why would you want to take paracetamol for the headache of others.

gregyboy:
This thread has gone silent


Were is TAO11 i bet should will never forgive herself the truth came out i just so pity her now who will she argue all this myth of a research she has done,

I always told her not just to post links or references but she should analyze the info on the references before pasting it here, but she wouldn't listen

I noticed the same too, they have all run away.

They probably realised the politics surrounding the myths and that the arguments and evidences are no longer in their favour.

They can now see the myths for themselves.

They have to first determine if Oduduwa was real or myth, then answer the question of his origin before even attempting the Benin/Ife history.

Without Oduduwa, there is no Benin/Ife relationship.

Too much evidence to show that Benin/Ife connection is a lie.

Ooni and Alaafin have their own versions of Oduduwa. The Benin have their own version too.

Nobody can agree on who is right.

These are all too much for them to process.

This is the result you get when you expand the arguments.

Don't allow them to box you into the corner of Benin/Yoruba superiority.

Whilst they are shouting superiority, you will be examining the evidences and pointing out the errors.

I told you they are not very smart and clever.

gregyboy:
Hmm the common man is fed with scrap of the elite if only we can remove this ife-benin relationship aside we can really find our true history as benin

I got to find out that even

The ekaladeran and ogiso story was a myth in ancient benin told to explain the emerge of the benin monarchy

The ogiso and ekaladeran stories are myth in benin to explain the benin history

The benin should do proper research on the benin migration from the Niger river

The benue people also eat pounde yam as thier delicacy more research should be done on this area i believe thats were the Oghene came from
The artwork that had the tribal mark was probably from around the niger area

Now you know, but the palace doesn't want to hear about it.

MetaPhysical:
Go to other thread for your quest.

This thread is strictly to locate your master in East.

Your portuguese partner said your Oba told him he has a superiorin East.

Who is the superior and where in East........is it Eri?

Please let us know if you find it through sound research, we don't care wherever it is. But we know now it's not Ife. The search continues.

If you have any evidence pointing to Eri, share it let's examine it.

gregyboy:
She won't be able to swallow the fact that the ife and benin beef was a myth she wont let go never she will keep sitting egharevba tales and keep getting wet on it


I think benin is not winning this one not when nigeria is still together the yorubas will always back the ooni of ife against the Oduduwa myth
Benin happend to be the newset stranger among the myth

Benin side of ife story was a clap down, it was the best but trabalism from the yorubas prevailed over it

Lets just tell the real stories behind all this shit
So there will be no need for the upcomings arguing on some made up shit

Most people propagating this stories know the truth.

Did you read Silversniper post above, even Egharevba knew about the Nupe/Igala/Benin relationship but it was suppressed/not mentioned in the earlier edition of his book.

The Palace benefits from the Benin/Ife narrative because it put them in a very good position anyway you look at it.

There is nothing new research is going to find today that the palace is not already aware of.

Don't forget that Egharevba was also a palace chief.

gregyboy:
The benin should withdrawal themselves from this mess they kept themselves

We are out of western region the truth need to be told to us

Let me give you the political angle to the history and try to understand the politics involved.

Like religion, history could also be used as a political too to control the people.

If you understand the politics involved, the current fabrication may be difficult to change.

In the future the Oba of Benin will be the Oba of all Obas and he already has legitimacy because of the Ife/Oduduwa connections they are teaching everyone now.

The Yoruba Obas are too weak to compete with the Benin throne for superiority.

The Ooni and Alaafin are just paper weight Obas.

That's what Rome did with christianity by making Rome the headquarters of christendom and the Pope the most senior Christian on earth even though christianity didn't start in Rome.

Rome was a pagan nation with nothing to do with christianity, they even persecuted early Christians.

Though Benin have lost the empire but will retain the seniority amongst all Obas/monarchs in the southern/middle belt Nigeria.

Benin is already the spiritual headquarter for those various tribes tracing their roots back to Benin.

Tell me any monarch that is as debated as much as the Oba of Benin in Nigeria, not even the Sultan of Sokoto or Emir of Kano get that much mention.

Show me how many threads here on nairaland debating them.

You only hear about Ooni and Alaafin in debates because of Benin. If you take Benin out of their debates, it becomes boring.

But Benin history doesn't need anyone else to be interesting.

Only very few Yoruba are able to think at this level

That guy got the gist and the reason he is not happy.

The other Yoruba guys here are not very clever.

I hope you are following the history from the political angle.

It's all about power play.

So the Palace knows what they are doing by keep repeating the history the way they do.

The truth may be that the Oba of Benin, Ooni and Alaafin are not even related at all. That is the reason none of them agree on who the mythical Oduduwa is.

Oduduwa himself may not have existed at all.

But the Ife and Oyo made a very big mistake by presenting Oduduwa as a foreigner or spirit from the sky rather than actual human.

It's only when Benin put a human face to him by linking him to their banished prince Ekaladerhan, they realised their mistake.

But it's too late now for them to come back and tell us Oduduwa was born in Ife. They will have to burn almost all their history books and discredits all their historical sources and historians.

As it stands, the Benin version of Oduduwa is the most plausible.

The other versions are laughable because nobody will believe Oduduwa climbed down from the sky and no record of him being in Mecca, Saudi Arabia.

Hope you get the gist now.

You can relax and begin to pursue your girlfriend.

MetaPhysical:
You have written on everything else except the Eastern ogene that is your superior.

Im still waiting on his identity and location.

Don't be in a hurry, let's get the Ife lies out of the way first.

gregyboy:
I hope soon we will put this ife and benin beef to rest

And i can get to lay the stinky pussy of TAO11 after this

Good luck on the laying aspect.

They are just using the Benins to unite themselves.

You can see the pain in that guys writeup.

There is so much anger and confusion within the Yoruba Obas.

We are even helping them by saying Benin/Ife relationship is fabrication.

The Oba of Benin that wrote Benin into Ife history played a fast political move on them.

As Benin lost it's empire, it has to capture the monarchy of a larger tribe just the way Rome lost it's empire but captured the Catholic church by becoming the headquarter.

You just have to understand the politics involved.

The Alaafin and Ooni can not reconcile their history of Oduduwa.

Ooni is the so called supreme head but it's the Alaafin that appoints chief for all Yoruba land like the title given to Gani Adams recently.

The Ooni and Alaafin will always fight themselves because their seats are appointed by politicians and they can be dethroned.

The only secured monarchy representing Oduduwa is Oba of Benin.

Those that really understand this are not happy.

Ooni and Alaafin that you see in all parties can hardly make the Yorubas monarchy sacred.

Erediawa already told the old Ooni that he is their royal father.

It was a very clever move by the Benin, let the idiots that doesn't understand the political calculations keep on arguing.

How weak do you think their Obas will be in the next fifty years. They are already very weak.

The Oba of Lagos don't even have any respect for the Ooni but calls oba of Benin his father.

When Erediawa went to visit the Ooni before the last one, the Ooni offered Erediawa his chair/throne and sat in another chair.

gregyboy:
Wait was there gun during oromiyan and oduduwa time


Politics have hidden our true history

The kparakpo war lives so many hidden secrets untold by benin and yorubas

The truth is the commoners will always leave in shadow

I need more info on this samuk

There were no guns, it was for emphasis. The guy is showing how disgusted he was with Oranmiyan 's actions for invading Ife because Oduduwa was murdered.

TAO11:
I know it does mean Supreme God --- and that's the point I'm making. That the Binis themselves (not the Yorubas) use this same word in reference to anyone who rules as king in Ife.

What can I do (than to accept) if Oba Erediauwa, Oba Eweka, and even historians all agree on this point?

(2) There is no such thing as Izoduwa. It doesn't exist. It's a myth. Ask your Benin folks on this same thread, they will update you.

You are still repeating this nonsense after your bobble has been busted.

Which Oduduwa was Oghene.

Please learn Yoruba history and politics from your superior below, then come back when you fully understand.

They and their ex-king are not a very smart people.
Their entire history is based on the need to provide an alternative - by this I mean the need to provide what they consider a realistic account grounded on the physical which they assume would be much more widely acceptable to the public as opposed to the Oyo account of Mecca & Sky chain descent.

I call it a Oyo account because it was propagated by Oyo for the need to project the Oduduwa sharing properties and allotting lands to Oranmiyan in order to project Alaafin's fraudulent claim of 'King of Yoruba' title started during the Ekitiparapo wars, a time when Ife were without an Ooni, exiled to Oke Igbo & Isoya and with their town completely razed to the ground.

These Bini & their revisionist king forgot that every Yoruba town has its homegrown or say nationalistic tales of the origins of Yoruba/Oduduwa meant to project their throne in a certain light. They & their revisionist king forgot the Oyo account is not Yoruba nation's account but they want it to be so badly to make their Ekalederhen concoction stick.

Oduduwa - Odu to du iwa -[the powerful man that contested leadership] also known as Osin Ora was an indigenous Ejigbomekun ma who did not only divide the town into two by carving out Ife & leaving the rest of the town under Obatala. He was eventually murdered, his reign was extremely short & as opposed to Oyo story of his sons [largely his followers rather than sons] trooping out from Ita Ijero, were actually expelled and the town re-integrated & leadership continued in the order of succession as it was before Oduduwa who could not wait for his quarter's turn carried out a coup. This was the reason oranmiyan came back fighting wars to reinstate whatever with guns blazing.

To sustain pan-Yoruba unity & not ruin the story within which certain kings such as Owa Ilesa & most of these Yoruba Oba Alade have claimed relevance & rights is why Ife has been mostly quiet about these nonsenses. Ife knows what kings have links with Ife & what compound or quarters they belong. To make everyone happy, Ife accommodates conjectural shxt & wild claims from all quarters.

gregyboy:
Am sorry i misread you i really am

Mhen politics is deep even in tradition

Nawa ooh see people who were arguing ife&benin connections a while ago are now telling the real story


A thread should be created to adress this political myth on nairaland abeg


Hmm nawa ooh

This was just for the tussle for chairmen of traditional rulers in the former western region, oba akenzua played politics on edo history

ghostwon

We need your contributions

In this sort of debate, just knowing your history is not enough, you also need to know and understand your opponent history and politics.

That is why I referred to Silversniper contribution as a breath of fresh air, he just didn't know Benin history alone but also Yoruba history and politics, that's why he was able to counter them from both ends.

From his submission, I learned that Alaafin told the British that they used to pay tributes to Benin, the Yorubas historian Johnson wrote that Ooni is from the descendants of shrine keeper, that Benin used to supply guns to Yoruba to kill themselves and Alaafin once beg oba of Benin for troops to help in Oyo war with it's other Yoruba tribes.

Now this guy I was responding to just disclosed that Oduduwa planned a coup to take over a position that was not his.

That the people that call themselves Oduduwa princes were actually his followers that were chased out of Ife after Oduduwa was murdered.

Oranmiyan came back to fight his Ife people with guns blazing.

Some Yoruba obas that are claiming Ife princes are fake.

All these information are very useful.

These are the sort of information the other Yoruba guys hide and be using the Benin supremacy arguments to unite themselves.

Meanwhile the Alaafin and Ife don't even agree on the origin of Oduduwa.

So, next time they tell you of how they are superior to you, you tell them to go and first sort out their history.

Always learn to expand your arguments, don't narrow it down to one particular aspect.

The reason, the Yorubas are one is because of Nigeria, if Nigeria should divide tomorrow, their wars will start all over again.

gregyboy:
The truth you still believe this crap

Go and do your research because what you're actually doing is what our so called benin mornachs did by playing history with politics

For the benin monarch to have a sense of belonging in the old western region they adopted the yoruba mythology of Oduduwa into a ekaladeran story


And you're also doing thesame shame on you

Shame on the benin monarch they were all possed by minority syndrome

Oduduwa myth was only meant for the yorubas, benins entered the myth thinking they will play a smart game and tell the story thier way to become senioe but fortunately they were relegated to even third


And you're doing thesame

Not at all, did you read the guys initial submission, he is saying the same thing as the Benin that Benin/Ife history is fake. Did you not see where he said the Benin are trying to arrogate supremacy to themselves through Oranmiyan.

I am just adding my support to his voice.

Did you not see where I repeated it to be fake in my reply to him.

The guy is not happy with the fabrication himself

Please, when you read next time, be more careful to understand what is being said.

OgboAto:
Because like your king & you, they also want to arrogate supremacy to themselves through Oranmiyan.

You may be right, that's why we are now re-examining the whole story because it doesn't sound right and doesn't add up.

Unlike some Yoruba people here, we are ready to research and find the truth no matter where it leads.

The current history of Benin/Ife and Yoruba smells of politics and supremacy tussles.

That to us is not history. People deserve to know their history rather than fabrications and playing politics with it.

I smell conspiracy between Benin and Oyo monarchy against Ife.

All they need to say is Ooni is a descendant of a shrine keeper as recorded by the great Yoruba historian Johnson.

Oba of Benin becomes the most acknowledged senior son of Oranmiyan and Alaafin his junior brother. Or Ooni and Alaafin continue to fight themselves whilst Benin stays senior.

The way it stands, Oyo, Ife and Benin don't agree on who Oduduwa was. They all have their own versions which makes the own history ridiculous.

Some say Oduduwa is

1. Benin banished prince
2. He was from Mecca
3. Climbed down from sky with chains
4. Son of Ham that was driven out of Saudi Arabia

We can all come together to find the truth rather than see it as fight between Benin and Yoruba.

We believe the Benin/Ife connection as it currently stands is a fabrication.

MetaPhysical:
Im going to build a chronology for you.

1 - Oruh is a forest land, in it lived a disorganized and uncivilized people.

2 - Ife sent a corps of city-builders to put in order and civilization.

3 - The builders established a new order called Igodomigodo.

4 - Ife sent ruler called Ogiso to oversee the new state and sustain order.

5 - At a point in time disorder returned to the civilized city. Enmity and conflicts erupted and threatened the civilization.

6 - Ogiso council sent request to Ife to ask for intervention.

7 - Ife dispatched nd gave AUTHORITY to Oranmiyan to enter Igodomigodo and reform it.

8 - Oranmiyan went with a new set of Chiefs.

9 - Oranmiyan established a new order and called it Benin and ruled in Benin.

10 - Oranmiyan had a child in Benin. He returned to Ife, leaving his child and Chiefs behind in Benin to exercise his AUTHORITY.

11 - His child was crowned OMO N'OBA N'EDO.

12 - The lineage of Oranmiyan continues till today to exercise AUTHORITY of the reformer in Edo.

Omo n'Oba n'Edo!


Argue with this chronology.

All these happened and when the Portuguese arrived Benin over 500 years ago and ask questions, Benin didn't remember to tell them Ife, Oranmiyan or Oduduwa but they said Oghene in the east.

Guy, wake up, Ife is not east of Benin and Oghene is not Oduduwa.

Stop wasting your time. We are now all doing our research and looking towards the east of Benin. Ife is not there.

No matter how many times a lie is told, it remains a lie.

We have already woken up from the lies and forging ahead in our research.

You guys can continue to wallow in your lies, Oyo and Ife doesn't even agree on the identity of Oduduwa.

Benin/Ife history is a fabrication.

OgboAto:
They and their ex-king are not a very smart people.
Their entire history is based on the need to provide an alternative - by this I mean the need to provide what they consider a realistic account grounded on the physical which they assume would be much more widely acceptable to the public as opposed to the Oyo account of Mecca & Sky chain descent.

I call it a Oyo account because it was propagated by Oyo for the need to project the Oduduwa sharing properties and allotting lands to Oranmiyan in order to project Alaafin's fraudulent claim of 'King of Yoruba' title started during the Ekitiparapo wars, a time when Ife were without an Ooni, exiled to Oke Igbo & Isoya and with their town completely razed to the ground.

These Bini & their revisionist king forgot that every Yoruba town has its homegrown or say nationalistic tales of the origins of Yoruba/Oduduwa meant to project their throne in a certain light. They & their revisionist king forgot the Oyo account is not Yoruba nation's account but they want it to be so badly to make their Ekalederhen concoction stick.

Oduduwa - Odu to du iwa -[the powerful man that contested leadership] also known as Osin Ora was an indigenous Ejigbomekun ma who did not only divide the town into two by carving out Ife & leaving the rest of the town under Obatala. He was eventually murdered, his reign was extremely short & as opposed to Oyo story of his sons [largely his followers rather than sons] trooping out from Ita Ijero, were actually expelled and the town re-integrated & leadership continued in the order of succession as it was before Oduduwa who could not wait for his quarter's turn carried out a coup. This was the reason oranmiyan came back fighting wars to reinstate whatever with guns blazing.

To sustain pan-Yoruba unity & not ruin the story within which certain kings such as Owa Ilesa & most of these Yoruba Oba Alade have claimed relevance & rights is why Ife has been mostly quiet about these nonsenses. Ife knows what kings have links with Ife & what compound or quarters they belong. To make everyone happy, Ife accommodates conjectural shxt & wild claims from all quarters.

So Oyo and Ife doesn't even agree on Oduduwa origin.