₦airaland Forum

madjnr:
that's cunning... what you posted were not the word of Jesus... so it means there's a contradiction... while Jesus unequivocally said he was sent to the Jews you're quoting what other people said not Jesus himself

Go find out Who spoke in John 3:16 and John 10.

Besides Who is the Seed of Abraham that will be a Source of Blessing to all nations of the world (genesis 22:18)? And of course His ministry started with the Israelites but it was not to end there:

Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem
Luke 24:5-47

He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:11,12

madjnr:
now we are coming to common terms... but heJesus orders Christians to follow the Law of Moses in the Old Testament: "Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18) " It is quite clear from these verses from the New Testament that Jesus peace be upon him did honor the Old Testament and did say that every single "letter" of it has to be honored, followed and fulfilled.

you can't achieve salvation just by believing in Chris alone... you have to follow his teaching

Salvation is not an achievement! It is received by faith in Christ. As per the highlighted, Jesus came and fulfilled the Law hence those that believe on Him receive power to live the same life He lived on earth. How many laws did the thief on the cross obey? Was he not justified by his faith in Jesus?

madjnr:
what are you saying? quote me a single verse where Jesus unequivocally told people not to follow the law?

And where did I say that He did? We are talking here about Salvation and Eternal Life. Where did Jesus teach that they should seek these by keeping the Law?

madjnr:
was specifically sent the lost sheep of Israel only, so it seems the Bible is in contradiction with it self and that some Biblical authors wanted to evolve Jesus' character, let us read Matthew 15:24:
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
How more clear can it become? So the fact is Jesus said he sent to the lost sheep of Israel, not the world, so this is a problem the Christians have to settle.

'Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.' (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 10:5-6) "

1. John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2. John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world

3. John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

4. Luke 2:10,13,14
10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, 14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

5. Genesis 22:18
and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
(God speaking to Abraham)

madjnr:
Many times when I enter a debate with fellow Christians and present verses from the Old Testament to them about some of life's laws and issues that were given to the Jews from GOD Almighty, they immediately give me answers such as "Oh, this is an old testament law that we Christians don't have to follow...." I find that to be quite an interesting statement.
Jesus orders Christians to follow the Law of Moses in the Old Testament: "Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18) " It is quite clear from these verses from the New Testament that Jesus peace be upon him did honor the Old Testament and did say that every single "letter" of it has to be honored, followed and fulfilled.

While your quote to buttress the highlighted is not in agreement, Jesus NEVER enjoined ANYONE to seek salvation through keeping the Law. Yes HE came to fulfil the Law and while He did not bid the Jews to ignore the Law He clearly showed a lack the Law cannot supply which can only be filled if we believe on, and follow Him:

18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up

22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Luke 18:18-22

That is why Jesus said I (not the law) Am The Way, The Truth and The Life. John 14:6 The Law never assured any of these.

The verses of Matthew 23:1-3 were sent to me by a Muslim brother (LISLAM@aol.com ); may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him: "Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 'The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.' (Matthew 23:1-3) " We clearly see in these verses that Jesus peace be upon him did not prohibit for the Old Testament to be followed, but only warned his followers to not follow it the way the current religious leaders of the Law (the Jewish Rabies) were following it.

Now, who were the audience? Jews.
Was Christ saying that action will guarantee salvation and Life? NO
Just as He paid a tribute which He was illegally asked to pay (because He would not fight for His rights) Jesus was enjoining obedience to religious authorities. He would be the last to incite the people against the latter.

Was the Law the final fulfilment of God's Promise to Abraham? NEVER

2- The laws, rules and directions on how to live your life:
Now, as for life's laws and issues, the Old Testament for instance prohibits a son from marrying his own mother, sister, or father's former wife. The Old Testament also orders those who commit adultery to be burnt in fire, and those who decide to desert their religion and follow another religion must get stoned to death
(Deuteronomy 13:6-9, and Deuteronomy 17:3-5) . Also the Old Testament orders Gays and Lesbians to be burnt in fire.
These laws were put by Jesus himself (assuming that Jesus is GOD himself as Christians believe).



However, these laws do not exist in the New Testament. Does this mean that since these laws do not exist in the New Testament, then that would allow the son to marry his own mother? or the brother to marry his own sister? or a Gay person to become a minister or priest in a church? and if that would be ok, then wouldn't that all be a contradiction to what Jesus wants since he is the one who inspired the Old Testament?

NO. In fact the righteousness we receive by faith in Christ when lived out is of a higher standard. Remember Jesus taught the sermon on the mount? In the OT, no son can marry his sister; in the NT you are condemned if you as much as lust after your sister in your heart sans
ANY physical contact. The OT does not call you a murderer except you kill. The NT calls you a murderer if you have hatred within, not necessarily when you kill!


Besides, the Law exposed the weakness of the flesh this is illustrated in the case of the adulteress-people stoning another for what they are guilty of the only difference being that she was caught, they were not!

The OT appears to differentiate between outward and inward sins, the NT treats both as the same meriting the same judgement.

The New Testament did have laws that modified the Old Testament's ones. I do not have a problem with those laws, and yes I do agree that Christians must not follow the laws of the Old Testament that were modified by the New Testament. What I am finding very confusing from the Christians is that they base their life all on the New Testament, and the New Testament does not have many laws in it. It hardly covers any hot topic or issue that we deal with in our life. For instance, the Old Testament has its own laws for inheritance, but the New Testament doesn't.

That is a mundane issue. Let's keep to matters spiritual and eternal. Unlike the Jews, not everybody in a family will be a follower of Christ hence she/he cannot force laws down their throats - that is why parents write wills and for the intestate, family/court decides.

This law was put by Jesus himself (since Jesus is GOD according to the Christians belief). My question is, since the New Testament does not even talk about the topic of inheritance, but the Old Testament does, then wouldn't it make more sense for Christians to follow the laws of the Old Testament, since both the New Testament and the Old Testament were inspired by Jesus himself?

That Numbers 27:1-11 was God's law to a Theocratic nation on how they should handle inheritance intricacies. Today, inheritance is shared based on either the will of the parents or other means. This is a purely mundane issue that has nothing to do with Eternal Life, Salvation etc

It seems to me that the New Testament is not a religion, but rather a story of Jesus' life.

Thank God you realise this!!! Jesus brought not a religion but Life! HE is the Way to the Father! God NEVER created Adam because HE wanted him to practise a religion!!! HE wanted a man that will share His Love (in the most intense form for which animals were not capable) Image, Dominion, Life, Breath, Divine Nature etc You know GOD is LOVE and true Love fulfils and gratifies itself by GIVING out hence Eternal Love sought for one (by creating man) that HE could Eternally give to!

Yes, I as a Muslim do love and respect Jesus (peace be upon him) a lot, because we Muslims believe that he is a Messenger from Allah Almighty. However, we do not believe that the current Bible is the true word of God. We believe that the Original Bible still exists today, but is lost.

Why would you be asked (in the Quran) to get clarifications from a book that will be lost? Since you believe Allah is all-knowing, it means it is established that you MUST need those clarifications!!! And why bid you seek them from a book that is no more? You see by making this claim highlighted, you indirectly indict the Quran too!

If you look at the Western World today (which is mostly Christians),

Name the ones you have in mind. I will rather say they are either secular or non-muslim or multi-religious nations. Besides, before you call a person, or group Christian, ask yourself if such are disciples of Christ in the real sense because those were the people called Christians!

you would notice that their constitutions and way of life is not Biblical at all. They avoid Jesus' teachings in the Old Testament (since he is GOD himself and the author of the Old Testament), and they almost don't have any law that deals with life in the New Testament. My question in this case, what kind of standards does the Christian religion have? If Christians have to create their own laws to manage to survive life and its issues, then my friend, wouldn't that make[b] Christianity a useless and irrational religion[/b]?

Very funny. What gauges this is where you get to at the end of life,and where you stand with God while living, based on your faith. We are not Hebrews! Besides, before the Law in the OT,they had communal principles (eg inheritance were passed to sons, no homosexual dealings,etc ) and there was a basic level of morality but relationship with God and acceptance by Him was always hinged not on religion but faith see Enoch, Noah, Abel , Abraham, Job etc who all lived before the OT laws and yet by their faith and actions/obedience of faith dictated by the former were acceptable by God!

Its unfortunate and quite obvious that Christians today made their Bible a useless religion.

What does that mean? When did the Bible become a religion and who gave you that idea?

They refuse to follow the Old Testament, which covers all of life's laws and issues, and they only stick to the New Testament, knowing that (1) the Old Testament was inspired by Jesus himself, and (2) both the Old Testament and the New Testament form what we called today "The Holy Bible" . If the Old Testament must not count for Christians today and they must not follow it, then why is it part of their Holy Book? and why follow part of Jesus' teachings and not all of them, meaning, why follow the New Testament alone and not the Old Testament when Jesus himself is the author of both books?.

Jesus fulfilled the Law and the Law is fulfiled by the Power of the Spirit in those who believe on , and follow Him.(you cannot understand this for now).

Don't tell me "Any normal person wouldn't sleep with his sister" , because 50 years ago, we used to say "Any normal person wouldn't sleep with his own gender" , and today in California USA, CHRISTIAN men not only sleep with other CHRISTIAN men, but they also MARRY each others!.

And tell me whose example or command in the NT they are following. At least you call them Christians! If they are CHRISTIANS they would have seen this:
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate [by perversion], nor those who participate in homosexuality,
1 Corinth 6:9

Same applies for women there. Check this out:
On Jerry Springer Show here in the US (one of the most popular shows that discuss social issues in the country), on Monday 6/11/2001, the show's title for that day was "I am sleeping with my son" . From among the people that were brought on for that day, some sons and their mothers are even planning on having babies! The fathers were in great shock.
Where do you draw the boundaries for sinning?

Kindly give me ONE passage in the OT that expressedly or impliedly encourages this abomination or an event in which such was alluded to! What? Go read the NT very well! Jesus said, a man shall LEAVE father and Mother and be joined to his wife.

You have NO idea what it means to be a christian and I wont blame you however, you should ask questions rather than making assertive claims.

The NT lacks a great deal of teaching regarding these issues. Perhaps the writers of the NT saw no need to mention anything about these issues because they counted on the OT to do the job.

Obviously you are making assumptions else if you have read the NT thoroughly, some issues raised wont be necessary. It seems the NT you know is the churchgoing folks in America!

For those who are true christians we know what it means when it says:
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
John 1:17

And when we believe on Jesus and receive His Grace, it does the following in us:
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:11-13

DabELLs:
You did not answer my questions correctly. Maybe you have accepted you are wrong.

answer yours first and let's compare notes.

DabELLs:
: If Jesus is the Creator of the Universe or part of GOD Almighty, then how is it possible for Psalm 2:7 to be referring to Jesus, when on a day approximately 500 years after the revelations of the Book of Genesis somebody got begotten by GOD Almighty?.

pls answer my questions like i did yours.

DabELLs:
THEN YOU SHOULD ASK YOURSELF THIS TOO... was Jesus the one that was begotten of God and the same Jesus wrote that Psalm on the same day he was begotten?(Let your answer not exceed two sentences)

1. Jesus did not write the Psalm, it was a prophecy about Him that must have being one of His references in Luke 24:44
(44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, [size=13pt]and in the psalms, concerning me[/size].) confirming that there were prophecies concerning Him in the Psalms!

2. The phrase, 'this day' could not apply to David because he was not begotten of God: nor does it mean that that was the Day the Son was Begotten because Hebrews 1:2 and John 1:1-3 tells us all things were created by the Son-
( hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God[/b]. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. [b]3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.); meaning the clause was not used literally.

(Now if you will be true to yourself, answer the questions first posed to you)

DabELLs:
We must know that King David came approximately 500 years or so after Moses. My simple question to Trinitarians is: If Jesus is the Creator of the Universe or part of GOD Almighty, then how is it possible for Psalm 2:7 to be referring to Jesus, when on a day approximately 500 years after the revelations of the Book of Genesis somebody got begotten by GOD Almighty?.

DabELLs:
STOP LYING... THAT VERSE IS SIMPLE ENOUGH EVEN FOR NURSERY ONE STUDENT TO UNDERSTAND... THE VERSE REFER TO DAVID DIRECTLY NOT JESUS.

Now since you claim that verse was about David, tell us, was David the one that was begotten of God and the same David wrote that Psalm on the same day he was begotten?
(Let your answer not exceed two sentences)

DabELLs:
Let us also look at psalm 2:7"....Jehovah had said onto me (David), thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."Here in this verse we see that God not only called David his"Son", but also had made him his begotten Son!!!.

this is a prophecy concerning Jesus. Even the early Church knew this! See Acts 4:24-28

DabELLs:
4 sons of god In Bible and 4 Different gods In BibleSons of God in BibleChristians claim that Jesus was the Only Son ofGod. According to Bible they mostly refer to Gospelof John (Paul’s Doctrine). Such asJohn 3:16“For God so loved the world that he gave his oneand only Son, that whoever believes in him shallnot perish but have eternal life.”John 5:22“Moreover, the Father judges no one, but hasentrusted all judgment to the Son,”However, Again Christians are wrong. In this post Iwill show that Bible and Christians also contradictthemselves. According to Bible Adam, David andJacob were also the sons of GodIn Gospel Luke 3:38 Adam was the son of god“Kenan was the son of Enosh. Enosh was the sonof Seth. Seth was the son of Adam. Adam was theson of God.”In Exodus 4:22 Jacob was god's first born“Then you will tell him, 'this is what the LORDsays: Israel (Jacob) is my firstborn son.”David was also the son of God in Psalms:Psalm 2:7"I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He saidto me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begottenyou.”So, who inspired Christians that Jesus was theonly son of god?Bible itself claims God having four sons.Either they haven’t read the bible properly or theyare ignoring the biblical corruption and errors.It was all a man’s work, and even if Christiansbelieve Jesus as the only Son then they areagainst the teachings of Bible or simply ignorant.Moreover, Psalm 2:7 uses the word begotten forDavid and Jacob was god first born.Simply a Christian can’t reject these verses.Different Names of God in Bible:There is No one specific Name of God stated inBible for example in Islam the God’s name is Allah.Different Bible gives different names for Christiangod. So who is the real god of Christians? Thenames of god in bible are Jehovah, Yahweh,Adonai, and Lord.While some are dropped but others are still in use:King James Version and American Standard Versionuse Jehovah for GodWorld English Bible and New Jerusalem Bible(Hebrew text) uses YahwehWhile others use Lord for GodFor ExampleJehovah is god in BibleExodus 6:3 (KJV)“And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, andunto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but bymy name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.”Yahweh is also god in BibleExodus 8:1 (WEB)“Yahweh spoke to Moses, Go in to Pharaoh, andtell him, "This is what Yahweh says, 'Let my peoplego, that they may serve me.”Eloi is also god in BibleMatthew 27:46“About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loudvoice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"--whichmeans, "My God, my God, why have you forsakenme?"In Jewish Version of Bible (CJB) the Name“Adonai” is used for GodExampleComplete Jewish Bible 1Samuel 16: 1“Adonai said to Sh’mu’el, “How much longer areyou going to go on grieving for Sha’ul, now that Ihave rejected him as king over Isra’el? Fill yourhorn with oil, and set out; I will send you to Yishaithe Beit-Lachmi, because I have chosen myself aking from among his sons.””So Christians are confused and they even don’thave one name of god to use. How a true religioncan have different name of God?Might be different gods?We also cannot conclude which is the real god?And whom Christians should follow?If you translate Yahweh, Jehovah and Adonai inHebrew They all have same meanings that’s "god".Which is the real God then?AppendixSome Christians try to prove that Yhvh is the realname by presenting all names of god in Hebrew.Let us Look how to write names in Hebrewadonai - אדוניםyhvh - ה 'Joehovah יהוהI think this further prove that there are differentgods of Christians.

you write like adewalker!
Any way, of the many sons which other one apart from Jesus was called Begotten?

dolphinheart:
So as you stated, jesus was not 100% God.

John 1:1,18 establishes the fact that HE IS GOD. John 1:14 reveals He was made flesh. Hebrews 2:9 tells us why the Word was made flesh. And Philipians 2:5-9 gives us the mindset He had while in the flesh.

1.Give us an example.

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (not " I was".)
John 8:58

Speaking of His Incarnation:

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
John 3:13

2. All those powers he used in doing extraordinary things, where did it come from.

They came from the same Source available to those who believe on Him today - the Holy Spirit by Whom the Father Indwelt Him!!! (just as HE Indwells believers today by the Spirit)

Matthew 12:28
But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
Acts 10:38

But NOWHERE will you find that relating to the pre-incarnated Christ that God anointed Him with power to create the World, NO WAY.

Is He God? YES.

After the incarnation was He a man - YES

During the Incarnation was He still God - YES (the pronoun He in Philipians 2 was referring to the Pre-Incarnated Christ , not somebody else, and how He became flesh)



IS HE the Father? NO

IS HE the Holy Spirit? NO

DabELLs:
All prophets have been sent by God into this world to spread the message and bring people to God. Jesus is no exception to this, he himself was also sent by God just like every other prophet was:Mat15:24Buthe answered and said, I am notsentbut unto the lost sheep of the house ofIsrael.Here we see Jesus claiming he was SENTto the lost sheep ofIsrael. Just like every other prophet, prophets were sent to a group of specific people, or their own tribeetc. We find Jesus in the same situation as he sent to a specific group of people, the lost sheep ofIsrael. The one who sentJesus is of course God, so here is just oneverse showing us Jesus just like all other prophets was sent, and just like all other prophets he was sent to a specific people.Let us quote more verses of Jesus being sent:Mat 23:37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] thatkillestthe prophets, andstonestthem which aresentunto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hengatherethher chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!Now this verse does not mention Jesus being sent, however so it mentions other prophets who were sent toJerusalemfor the Jews.What is interesting about this passage is that Jesus mentions prophets.He mentions prophets who were sent, andmentions prophets who were sent for a specific group of people. What is interesting is that Jesus himself is in the exact similar position, he was sent, and he was sent to a specific group of people hence we see the exact similarity betweenJesus and other prophets. Not only that, but the Jews stoned the other prophets, the Jews also tried to stone Jesus. Hencefrom this we already have enough proof that Jesus is a prophet, and just like all other prophets Jesus is sent, and sent to a specific group of people. However let usquote more verses of Jesus being sent to make a strong foundation for the rest:Luk10:16Hethathearethyouhearethme; and he thatdespisethyoudespisethme; and he thatdespisethmedespisethhim thatsentme.Jhn5:24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He thathearethmy word, and believeth on him thatsentme, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto lifeJhn5:30Ican of mine own self do nothing: as Ihear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hathsentme.Jhn4:34Jesussaithunto them, My meat is to do the will of him thatsentme, and to finish his work.Jhn7:28Thencried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: andI am not come of myself, buthe thatsentme is true, whom ye know not.So it is crystal clear that Jesus was sent,he did not send himself. So just like all other prophets Jesus is sent, and he is sent to a specific group of people.So this enough now to show Jesus is indeed a prophet, for prophets are sent byGod to do a job just like Jesus said. God does need someone to send him does he?If Jesus indeed was God he would have sent himself, not let someone send him.A Christian does not have one single validargument against that, the fact is before Jesus came into this world he was fully divine as Christians say. So it would be simple for the divine Jesus to send himself into this world since he had the power and so on, Christians cannot jump to the out-dated argument of Jesus was aman, he gave up his powers and so on. The fact is Jesus was fully divine before he came down to earth, so why did the divine Jesus not send himself? Why did he need the Father to send him? The fact is because Jesus is just a man, and cannot send himself because he is not God. Jesus was sent because he is a prophet, and just like all prophets he was sent by God.Now let us look at some other interesting verses concerning sent people:Jhn3:34Forhewhom God hath sentspeakeththe words of God: for Godgivethnot the Spirit by measure [unto him].That is the exact position of Jesus. The one whom God has sent speaks the words of God. Is Jesus not God? The fact is this verse makes it even more solid to the fact that Jesus was just a messenger, speaking the words of God. I would love to see a Christian response to that which actually makes sense. It is simple logic, if someone is God, then they cannot be referred to like that, being sent and speaking the words of God. Now incase Christians want to get smart with me and say Jesus is God so therefore he is indeedspeaking the words of God, because he is God so there is no problem. However so Jesus himself said everything he speaks is not his. So the fact is everything Jesus said, taught and so on were not his own words as he himself stated:Jhn14:24Hethatlovethme notkeepethnot my sayings: and theword which ye hear is not mine, but the Father'swhich sent me..Jhn7:16Jesusanswered them, and said,My doctrine is not mine, but his thatsentme.Jhn8:26Ihave many thingsto sayand to judge of you: but he thatsentme is true; andI speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.Jhn12:49ForI have not spoken of myself; but the Father whichsentme,he gave me a commandment, whatI should say, and whatI should speak.So those verses make it crystal clear that everything he said, everything he spoke wasnot of his ownbut of the ONE WHO SENT HIM, which is the Father. So hence Jesus did not even say things of his own! This is further proof that he is indeed a prophet, every prophet speaks what God tells them to speak,Jesusis no exception to this rule. So hence we see the sent ones speak the words of God, Jesus is thesent one, and he speaks the words of God,he does not speak of his own words as we clearly see in those verses. Therefore Jesus is definitely not God. Let us make a summary of what we have so far:1- All prophets are sent by God, Jesus was sent by God2- Allprophets(except Muhammad) was sent to a specific group of people, Jesus is no exception to this, he to was sent to the lost sheep ofIsrael.3- Every prophet spoke the words of God, they did not speak from themselves but rather what God told them to speak, Jesus once again is no exception to this and he himself claimed that all his words and all of what he said is from God. The Bible itself also claims all sent ones by God speak the words ofGod,Jesus was sent by God and spoke the words of God. Therefore he is not God.So all this from the NT shows that Jesus cannot be God.Jesus follows a long line of prophets who were all sent by God, if Jesus was some what different he would then arrive on this planet in a some different way, which is to be sent ofhimself, not being like all other prophets. Jesus' unique birth is a bit different, but not in the sense to put him on a different level which is making him God. Isaac wasborn of a barren lady. Adam was born of no mother or father. There are several unique births indeed, but the main thing isthat it is God who is essentially sending them and sending them in different ways, but at the end of the day they are being sent and allsharethat common denominator. So this in itself is enough to prove Jesus is not God.

Discern the Truth from these:

John 1:11,12,29

He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

The Israelites were to have the first benefit but not the final; some believed, others did not!

John 3:16,17
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

It did not say for God so loved Israel.

Now Jesus came in fulfilment of God's Promise to Abraham that:
and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Genesis 22:18

175:
Eye opener! Thank you!

Glory be to God and Father Of our Lord and Saviour Jesus.

175:
I need honest answers with tangible facts!

From the book of Genesis where we see God coming to Cain, Enoch (and the people of that generation), to God speaking to Abimelech after he took Abraham's wife, to when He commanded Balaam to desist from cursing Israel, up to when Job (described by God as a perfect and upright man) lived a life that pleased God, we see the Truth inspired by the Spirit through Paul that:



1. God have been revealing Himself to man in various ways before the advent of the OT and NT:
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

People like Job, Enoch, Noah responded positively while others were guilty of vs 21 above.

2. The Vs 21 group passed down their errors to their descendants and idol worshipped started. However, there were still those who were in tune with God eg Melchizedek. (Even in pre-missionary Nigeria, there were some like that one of who was named in Eagles of God series published by Tribune some years back but I dont remember his name.)

3. Also consider:
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Romans 1:14,15

After this background showing God was not totally divorced from His creatures

Now as regards your question:

1. People (of all nations in the world) prayed to God to the extent to which they understood His revelation to them - the limit of Light they had (Enoch,Job, Noah, Melchizedek and Abraham are examples, note that these were not Israelites neither were they under the OT)

2. Those who prayed to idols went deeper in depravity till they were conquered by other nations.

Acts 17:23-32 gives a vivid illustration of a people pre- Gospel and the need of the Gospel as underscored in Acts 17:30
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Time of ignorance when they prayed and raised an altar to God as the Unknown God and HE in His characteristical mercy answered because:

45 ...he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Matthew 5:45

Vecto:
Why did jesus call the father the only true God? lets start with this. no diverting please.....

(Pls if my input is not needed just let me know)

Was Jesus the Name of the Pre-Incarnated Christ? NO

When and why was He to be so Named? When HE was to be incarnated (i.e to be found in fashion as a Man Matthew 1:21 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS:[bfor he shall save his people from their sins.[/b])

Therefore being found in fashion as a Man, do we see Him insisting on His being worshipped as God and trying to 'prove' to people that He was God? NO

Why?
7 but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross
Philipians 2:7-9

For One in this case, what would He call the Father? Like every other man, GOD!

Now while He didnt use His power as God, there were instances when HIS speech showed Who HE was.

175:
I need honest answers with tangible facts!

would be right back

lexiconkabir:
unfortunately i have no proof for that, i wouldnt have known that it will change, to be sincere, i was shocked when i saw the changes. i tried downloading an old version of NIV but couldnt get it, however, there is something worth of note here, ishmaelite and isrealite are two distinct words that should have their own words each in hebrew, then why the inconsistencies in translation? some says ishmaelite and isrealite, and some says ishmaelite only(about 6 bibles)

I dicovered what you are saying! The NIV on biblestudytools.com retains the old NIV renditions.

The hebrew text reads Israelite for 2 Samuel 17:25
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_samuel/17-25.htm

It seems biblestudytools.com, unlike biblehub are sticking with the old NIV and not updating based , I believe, on NIV's recent revision. However, we cannot crucify biblehub because they still retained the other versions that did not change that passage and also did not change the hebrew as seen above. They might be under instruction to reflect these things as they are not the translators of the various verses you find under the parallel section.

You are a witness that some NLers have opened threads before now denouncing the NIV based on some other gross omissions.

I would rather a footnote/commentary explaining the cultural practice in Israel as regarding naturalization and dual citizenship be included rather than an outright change that seeks to help people who would not have that background understanding.

uchkochi:
Every spiritual arrow shot at you returns back to the shooter 7 times in the name of Jesus Christ.

But, sir, did Jesus at ANY time admonish this pattern of prayer? Does it not make us 7 times more like the wicked that shot the arrow?
What I find in Ephesians is that we have a Shield by which such are quenched , not ricocheted!

DabELLs:
AND JESUS DID NOT BRING NEW RELIGION... COS HE SAID " I CAME NOT TO CHANGE THE LAW BUT TO FULFIL"

Some of these Christians just run their mouths without reading their bible

He did not bring a new religion - True. He rather came to show us the Way to the Father - believing on Him(and as much that implies which time will fail to itemise)!

DabELLs:
JESUS WAS NEVER A CHRISTIAN... HE DID NOT MENTION ANYTHING LIKE CHRISTIANITY THROUGHOUT HIS LIFE... NEITHER DID HE TOLD ANYONE TO WORSHIP HIM

JESUS is the CHRIST and those who believe on , and follow Him are disciples (called Christians first in Antioch). Now He Who is the CHRIST cannot be a follower of Himself.

lexiconkabir:
you dont seem to get my point here, i already know about the dual citizenship, what i'm saying is, why did some versions updated theirs to ishmaelite? because like 4months back, it was still isrealite in ALL, why changed now? at least ishmaelite and isrealite would have distinct words in hebrews, then why the inconsistencies in translation?

Do you have proof for the highlighted?

lexiconkabir:
@scholar8200, if what you are trying to establish isnt another "twisting" then why are some bible version updating both verses calling jether an ishmaelite? click http://biblehub.com/2_samuel/17-25.htm and http://biblehub.com/1_chronicles/2-17.htm and see different versions, some version used ishmaelite for both, while some used distinct nationality. though kjv(i believe this is what you are using) used distinct nationality.

The Authorised kjv I use shows Ishmaelite and Israelite at various passages.

It wont be right to accuse the others of twisting because the fact remains that the man , though is recognised as an Israelite by tradition, did not cease to be an Ishmaelite. Just as the proselytes at Jerusalem in Acts 2:10,11 spoke of people speaking in their mother tongue. These were devout people from other nations who apparently by circumcision etc had become 'as one born as an Israelite'.

Notice the central role circumcision plays in these passage:
Genesis 34:16-23 just like Exodus 12:48

It's a case of dual citizenship.

lexiconkabir:
the OT was mutilated by the jews without recognition, so it wont favour Ishmael and his decendants, for example 2samuel17:25 says jethro(also know as ithra) was an isrealite while 1chronicles2:17 says he is an ishmaelite. why the confusion? according to the Qur'an jethro(known as shuaib in arabic) was a decendant of ishmael making him an ishmaelite, who knows, maybe the verse that says ishmael was cursed is another rotten lie by the jews in the OT.

Apologies to the op for this digression:
I am yet to find any Bible that renders both as Ishmaelite. It was common practise for people of other nations to naturalise to become Israelites eg:
17 And in every province, and in every city, whithersoever the king’s commandment and his decree came, the Jews had joy and gladness, a feast and a good day. And many of the people of the land became Jews; for the fear of the Jews fell upon them.

Esther 7:17
This happened right in the midst of the Medo-Persian empire!

Regarding the issue at hand, the Ishmaelite married an Israelite woman. Evidently, he would be counted as both an Ishmaelite and Israelite the reason for the former being, among other things, for genealogical purposes: the woman's name wont appear in genealogy hence that of her husband will be used. Besides, this was the principle in Israel:

48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.
Exodus 12:48,49

Meaning if a foreigner submits to circumcision, he will be counted as an Israelite.

Op, kindly give us the New testament verses they use as the basis for their activities. (At least no one becomes a Christian by keeping the Old testament laws)

JMAN05:
So u don't know? Next time. For now, allow d guy to reply my comment, don't derail it. If he doesn't want to answer, am ok with that rather than dragging the comment out of context.

No problem.

JMAN05:
How does this tie with the purpose of that my comment? Or want to call my attention to a verse u think is ur best shot?

?

Will you then be fair and say the same thing to that person whom the words was first applied? Can u do that?

As regards the highlighted, who was that?

atheistandproud:
LOL, pardon me, but what relationship does Abraham have with the Krishna?

The op and some similar posts seem eager to draw a similarity between CHRIST and krishna hence I think we should focus on the weightier matters such as my request.

atheistandproud:
If that's your mentality then you've clearly not read about the lost years of Christ.

Mentality? Rather my point is:
1. We have similar literatures with claims meant to tarnish His Image.
2. Since His being the Messiah was unknown till He was 30, who cared to chronicle His growing years? Let that one also give us similar chronicles of His disciples!
3. The only offence the Nazarites - those living in Nazareth where He grew up - could point out was that He was doing things out of the ordinary and manifested the Power of God. All along, they simply knew Him as the Carpenter's son.
4. If there were negative issues and scandals, that would have been brought up by the Nazarites and vehemently seconded by the Pharisees.
5. Besides, there is NO hint in the four Gospels that He ever lived a scandalous or mischievous life.
6. The Pharisees and the Jews hated Jesus with a passion hence I wont be surprised if they compiled that thing to further vent their bile of hatred and discredit Him.

atheistandproud:
The idea of the virgin birth is that the child being conceived was by divine means and not by normal means.

Do quote some prophecies of krishna being born as given by angels in fulfilment of God's Promise through Abraham.

atheistandproud:
Have any of you ever heard of the lost 18 years of Jesus?

No! I dont need to be told that it's the handiwork of the detractors! Apart from the record of His soundness in Scriptures at age 12, not much is said about His growing up. Why? NOBODY (except Joseph, Mary, Simon and Anna) knew He was the Messiah therefore no point chronicling details of His life. Hence if i will believe the book on lost 18 years. Let such an one give ,me the lost x years of Peter, James and John.

Moreover, when He started His Ministry and went to His town, if He were One previously given to mischief, I expect that would be the grounds of rejecting Him but no! In fact, that would have given the Pharisees enough gunpowder to destroy His Ministry.

vooks:
Question for you now.
Give me a single reason why you THINK, have been told,taught,assume Lucifer is Satan


PS
Try and stick to scriptures in your response.

Thanks

First, Lucifer as used in Isaiah 14:12 means shining one

helel: a shining one
Original Word: הֵילֵל
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: helel
Strong's concordance

Secondly the cause of satan's fall is not hidden:
1 Timothy 3:6
GOD'S WORD® Translation
He must not be a new Christian, or he might become arrogant like the devil and be condemned.

New American Standard 1977
and not a new convert, lest he become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.


Thirdly, a similar passage shows who the shining one was and what made him fall:
Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;
every precious stone was thy covering,
the sardius, topaz, and the diamond,
the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper,
the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold:
the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes
was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so:
thou wast upon the holy mountain of God;
thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created,
till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise
they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned:
therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God:
and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub,
from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty,
thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness:
I will cast thee to the ground,
Ezekiel 28:13-17

Here we see a created being(not born) who evidently was a shining one by reason of his being decked with all manner of precious stones and access to stones of fire etc falling into judgement because of Pride. Take particular notice of:
2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God;

Because thine heart is lifted up,
and thou hast said, I am a God,
I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas;

While Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel were addressed to humans,

Fourthly, notice what will be the claim of he whose coming will be after the working of satan:
who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God
2 Thessalonians 2:4

Now while Ezekiel appears to prophesy about the antichrist, we cannot say so because the personality in chapter 28 was perfect till iniquity was found in him. That applies to no man nor the antichrist who from the start will be the man of sin, son of perdition!

You dont need to agree with me but refute with scriptures.

P.S. Notice that in Scripture there are dual applications - proximate and ultimate. For example, Daniel's prophecies about the antichrist eg was fulfilled on Antiochus Epiphanes however, he was not the antichrist but was the proximate fulfilment; the ultimate fulfilment will be when the antichrist is revealed. So that both passages have human reference does not disqualify these applications as NO mortal can actually manifest those taunts literally. (he will need to be a spirit or one in the heavenlies).