₦airaland Forum

Some of these are incorrect

* Ekun is not Tiger 🐅 , We have no Tigers in Africa
* Hedgehog 🦔 is Líìlíì not Ọ̀yà
* Giraffe 🦒 is Àgùnfọ̀n not Agbanrere
* Mouse 🐁 is Ẹmọ́
* Insect (generic) 🐜 is Kòkòrò
* Cat 🐈 is Ọlọ́gìní quite alright, but Ológbò is more popular/generic.
* Eagle 🦅 is Àwòdì/Ìdì

AutomaticMotors:
What I want to say to you would likely get my accounted banned for 19yrs..... I know your medicine you would receive it in full!

What do you want to say other than curse the guy out? Mtcheew.
Did Ekaladerhan not die in Ughoton? The Ughoton people don't even have any record of him leaving the village for anywhere else.
How he became Oduduwa is still a mystery to the older generation of Benins alive today except those who chose not to speak. Infact, Oduduwa is known and venerated in Benin as Ododuwa and NOT as Ekalade... whatever.
you belong to the class of those people that will never contribute to the topic but will just sit in one corner chiding people.

UGBE634:
what about the lead, where did you get that, I have not heard of it, maybe because we don't have everyday use for it, I didn't even know we have a name for it, I would want to know your source

It is from the Bini language dictionary c.1937 by H. Melzian

UGBE634:
In Edo Iron is Ematon, that is the general Iron, while a distinct one like the bronze is called Eron-wmon. Eron-wmon ranges from something very precious, someone's child, daughter in this case can be called Eron-wmon. It is because of the uniqueness and appeal of this iron-like object that is why the name Eron-wmon stuck to it. I never knew lead was called Oze in Edo maybe because we don't use it on a regular. Where did you find that

Yes Iron is Ematon. Eronmwon is brass. Most of what is called Bronze in classical Africana art is usually some kind of brass alloy.
On your comment about the value of Eronmwon, you are right.. Infact, it was more valued in Benin society than Gold and Silver before this mdoern era.

babasolution:
Even going by ogori/magongo names of quarters and settlements within the towns you'd get to hear a semblance with Edo and even idoma names,eg Akpafa,similar to akpapava in Benin,even old original ogori names have an idomoid/edoid sound eg idu,etu ,okpowo etc.The Yoruba names are recent names even the Yoruba surnames

Qua qua qua qua.
Pls... what is especially special about the names; Akpafa, etu, idu or okpowo? LMAO .. All these words could have meaning in any of the numerous Yoruba dialects.

Its also funny how you remember those ones, but don't remember the most important parts of town: AIYEROMI, ARAWU, AYETORO, EKU OBA, ILETEJU, OBINOYIN, UDADEGUN, OMODA, ABATIGBEN, OKESI or OJUBEDI.

At least if you want to mention areas of town the least you could have done is list an ample sample.

Agenda must agend with you.

babasolution:
Even going by ogori/magongo names of quarters and settlements within the towns you'd get to hear a semblance with Edo and even idoma names,eg Akpafa,similar to akpapava in Benin,even old original ogori names have an idomoid/edoid sound eg idu,etu ,okpowo etc.The Yoruba names are recent names even the Yoruba surnames

Qua qua qua qua.
Pls... what is especially special about the names Akpafa, etu, idu or okpowo? LMAO .. All these words could have meaning in any of the numerous Yoruba dialects.

Its also funny how you remember those ones, but don't remember the most important parts of town: AIYEROMI, ARAWU, AYETORO, EKU OBA, ILETEJU, OBINOYIN, UDADEGUN, OMODA, OBATIGBEN or OJUBEDI.

At least if you want to mention areas of town the least you could have done is list an ample sample.

Agenda must agend with you.

RedboneSmith:
Does Eronmwon have a meaning in Edo?

Also, scholes0, does 'Sunwen' have a meaning in Yoruba?According to one source Oduduwa's brass-Smith was called Sunwen.

(E-)ron-mwon and Sun-wen are similar enough for someone that has a good eye for linguistic relations to suspect that there's cognatic affinity here.

Eronmwon in Edo means Brass. Although it is Ude in the Ife dialect.
However Iron would be Urin.

Lead in Yoruba is Oje. Oze in Edo.

Sunwen sounds like a name that would come from South eastern Yorubaland, Ondo, Ikale, Oluji, Ilaje and co.
It could mean a lot of things since it is a name and not an item . It could even be a priest/worshipper of Uwen. from Sen (venerate) and Uwen (the Iwin deity of parts of Yorubaland)

UGBE634:
some of them are so visible, others may not so be the Ihogbe not all the positions are hereditary, some are by appointment

All the original Ihogbe posts were borne by people from Ife. Infact that is why they are called the Oba's family.
I wasn't making or mixing up anything in my original post at all.

Anyways, you deserve a break, you don try.

UGBE634:
they are not neutral as they are visibly yoruba by ancestry and they seem to have a soft spot for the yorubas. The Uzamas have existed from time before the Oba dynasty. these families according to what we have went to invite oranmiyan

Many of these families, that's why I said you should ask them directly, if they are from Ife, they would be proud to tell you, I know some of these Uzamas families so well. Ife is a noble place, they will only tell you they are not from because they are not from, it is better to hear from the horses mouth

And all the other families in the initial post?
And the Ihogbe?
Anways .......

UGBE634:
I made it for emphasis, Igueghae seems to be a Bini name, that's the point

Talking about names, do you know those Ujama titles all have meanings in Yoruba chieftaincy and esoteric societies like the Awo and Ogboni?
What do they mean in Benin?

UGBE634:
I am sorry these are not true, they had initially gone to invite him, that is why they came with him from Ife, it is part of the bastardization of the Bini history by the Usen people we are talking about.

The period of the Uzamas far predated the period of Oronmiyan in Benin, I would like you to come down to Benin and interview these families before you can be taken seriously

The "families" of the Iyase,Uso, Eson Esama, Esogbanetc are not really families as most are not hereditary

Goodnight

Left to me, the Usen people are the neutral party between Benin and ife here. Infact, they are the harbingers of the whole Benin-Ife episode.
Anything they say should be held in high regard.

UGBE634:
It was not stated in that write up

Yes it was They said the oba SENT FOR (i.e requested the services of) a master caster, they didn't say the Oba SENT TO

UGBE634:
And that person that was sent for is with the name Igueghae the late Oba opined he was earlier sent there to learn

Bros, Igueghae was said to be the first Ineh, and he came from Ife. This is not in doubt.

The oral history is jumbled up most especially with regards to time frame, but there are some consistencies.

UGBE634:
who is Aywaw and who is his son Bini, what link do they have with Bini, it is not stated there that these men migrated from Ife, the word used there is accompany, these chiefs alongside with chief Oliha as the head went to Ife to invite him, then accompanied him down obviously

Awyaw if Oyo, and the account is an allegory. One of the six son's of "Awyaw" is referring to Oranmiyan.

And by several accounts, such as; "The Intelligence report on Benin City by F.H Marshall 1939, Page 3. The four pair of chiefs came with him from Ife

UGBE634:
This is not true according to what we have, igueghae went to learn the art and came back to teach locals

Naah, Oba Oguola actually sent to Ife for a smith to come teach locals.

UGBE634:
The Binis were already ironsmith from time immemorial, infact according to the Oba, it was bronze smith that came from ife

can you post examples of some early Benin work in smithing?

UGBE634:
this one seem like a mythical tale, no where was it Even stated where ine of igun came from

Infact, the whole art of Igun Eronmwon and Ide (Iron and brass) came from Ife, not just the Ine.

UGBE634:
You see why Egharevba cannot be taken seriously, Ezomo'n'Uzebu as an example is from Ewohimi in Esanland, his descendants greet la-ogiesan. you see why Binis don't take his Akure antecedent heavily influenced his write up of Bini. I can use that video you posted earlier to debunk this work. No Uzamas came from Ife

What is Aywaw and which of his son was called Bini

And also not all Ihogbe chiefs are hereditary, some are by appointment

The Original Ojomo/Ezomo were not hereditary... they were simply valiant citizens who proved themselves in war/battle/chivalry

By some accounts, Oranmiyan conferred his own Ojomo from Usen. Ezomos became hereditary after Oba Akinjuwa (Akenzua), which is most likely the Esan pedigree of Ezomo started and became fixed.

Edigin and Olo (1 & 2)

Ine of Igun (3)

Ihogbe (4)

Infact, I have virtually covered all the families I mentioned.

UGBE634:
See scholes0 there is nothing like an Esogban family, it is not hereditary, it was a title created by Oba Ewedo alongside with Iyase, Uso, Eson, Esama etc these are town chiefs, they are not bastardization of what you have in yorubaland, on the death of an Esogban, the title is given to another family whom the Oba seems fit, one of the patriarch of the Iyamu family has been Esogban before. to be specific he was talking about his Edebiri family.

The Ihogbe chiefs are not from Ife. Where is your proof[b][/b]

I know of Bamawo, I have read of Osa and Osuan, the others you cannot just claim without going down to verify.

Also this is the strength of our argument, you listed several families up to about thirty, then you just assume they are all from Ife, even the Uzamas Don't deviate,

Eson, Ero, Edigin, Ogbebor n'Usen, the Oba, the whole of the Ihogbe class of Chiefs and their descendants who are the official keepers of the Oba's Pedigree and History (Uheloro, Letema, Uhe Obioba, Uheluyi, Ihama, Legema and co), the Adun, The Ine of Igun casters and his people, the Esogban, Eriyo, Elema, Eholo, Ehendiwo, the Ogbe sasa chiefs like the Olukotun and Olukohi .

Odofin (Edohen), Olifa (Oliha) and Aro (Ero). I

Yes the current Esogban family, Edebiris.
See, the Esogban title was created by Oba Ewedo as Asogbon. (Source of wise counsel) He is usually a chief adviser of the Oba chosen from a close relative of the Oba himself , related to him by BLOOD.

Okay, here is what I am going to do... I am going to list each name I mentioned and attach the proof f their Ife pedigree.
Oloton, Bamawo, Osa, Osuan, The Oba.... you've agreed.

Attached below are the following: (pic1)
Ojomo and Odofin
Osolo and Oloton
Oliha and Ine
Aro and Elemo

Ehendiwo: (pic2 & 3)

Ogieva, Ihama and Oloton: (pic 4)

UGBE634:
He is talking about his Esogban family, I pasted this video on a past argument with my kinsmen I already know this, I am also of that of Oloton, I mean all the families I quoted, even the Uzamas

He said he and the entire Esogban family came from ife oooo.
Are you saying Eogban family comes from Ife with one mouth, and saying he didn't with another?

Are you denying that the Ihogbe chiefs are from Ife also?

Or Osa and Osuan?

Or the Ine of Igun?

Or Eriyo aka Obo Oronmila of ife?

Or Edigin, Ehendiwo and Bamawo?

Since you know of the Oloton's pedigree, what will you say about the Elama below?

UGBE634:
Let me see it first, don't give me conditions, I am not the only spectator here

Okay you no wan do Quid pro Quo, but I will engage you none the less, and that is because you are at least level headed.

Listen to the Asogban (Esogban) of Benin. From 09:47 to 10:30


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZQZl-yyNqE&t=812s

Respond with what you hear him say.

UGBE634:
where the Esogban said all the families there migrated from Ife Even the Uzamas

I will give you, but will you agree with the TRUTH after I give you?

UGBE634:
Said it that all the families there came from Ife? Where is the source

Okay which of them?

AutomaticMotors:
Calm down I was referring to Ile Ife migration nonsense paraded by most Yorubas and not their even more hilarious oduduwa falling from the sky with two chickens tale .... I thought I was specific enough ?

Maybe we should accept the Egyptian migration nonsense of the Benins then, or the one where Oba the son of Osanobua went under the sea to battle Olokun and now owns all the land from Benin to Europe. At least two Yoruba chickens are better than one Edo Chameleon that can't even fly but landed from the Sky.

Sone of you no get zenz. You live in glass houses but don't know how not to throw stones

UGBE634:
Have you gone to interview every family there and you are certain they came from Ife or yoruba or it is because their names sound alike with what you have in Yoruba land, you suggest they are from yoruba. Maybe I should take automaticmotors serious and stop arguing with you.

What interviews? The Esogban and the Ine amongst others said it with their own mouths. I am not assuming.
Don't worry, I know it might be hard to agree.

AutomaticMotors:
Ugbe634 you are arguing Edo history with scholes0 a Yoruba boy from "Ondo"..... You are unbelievable sometimes, let me just let you know this right now!!!

Who is this one? can you argue "Edo" history with me?
Better go find somewher to siddon. this discussion is above your immature wits and hominem attacks. Is the discussion about me or the topic being discussed, mtcheew

UGBE634:
That Udo is older is not in doubt at all, Udo is older and supreme in terms of age and historical importance, you can tell folklores of Udo up to four thousand years. there is a festival or ceremony that is done in Benin, I can't place my hand on the name right now, when they are done doing it, One of the fore-man in the festival would cry with a loud voice nomarehe vbe nor ya he vbu udo, ari-eman gha riu udo ne" meaning who has not eaten let him go and eat in Udo, Eman ( pounded yam) has been taken to Udo. That shows the supremacy of Udo as our foremost town, now Udo is old, she is so ancient as compare to Benin, Benin might not even be older than Urhonigbe, what is going for her is that she is the present seat of the Oba. What made the Court of Uhe chose Benin over Udo might be because she is at the centre of Benin.

The culture of Utesse and Usen was not preserved because it is recent and because they kept in touch but rather because they migrated as a group and secondly because they are at the edge, I bet you if any or both of them had gone to settle at the centre, they would have been swallowed up by now and speak Edo as a mono-dialect.

Time is not even a factor for Udo not been yoruba speaking, it never happened, there was never a yoruba civilization in Udo, Udo was always peopled and a steady rival to Benin just like Ugo, it was not until the reign of the Warrior king Oba Esigie before Udo was finally subdued.

I am not faulting the chroniclers, but the persons who gave out the Information, You cannot override the influence of the Oba on Udo and every other Benin community. The first port of call historically was usually the Palace, especially as it pertains to the history of the people. If you want to get pure Edo history, go and ask Urhobo or Etsako, then merge it with the story of the local Binis and Esan then you will know who is telling the truth and a lie, as against the Oba of Bini story who has successfully made Edo history- yoruba history.

While that might be true that they may have been monolingual in Edo by now, they for sure would still have their pedigree intact. There are countless families in Oredo and Benin metro generally that are well aware of their Ife origins.
The families of; Eson, Ero, Edigin, Ogbebor n'Usen, the Oba, the whole of the Ihogbe class of Chiefs and their descendants who are the official keepers of the Oba's Pedigree and History (Uheloro, Letema, Uhe Obioba, Uheluyi, Ihama, Legema and co), Osa and Osuan, the Adun, The Ine of Igun casters and his people, the Esogban, Eriyo, Elema, Eholo, Bamawo, Ehendiwo, Oloton, the Ogbe sasa chiefs like the Olukotun and Olukohi ... and so on, on, on, on....forth.
The Yoruba presence in Benin is very numerous... Benin city is littered with place names of these Yoruba people, although they are all Benins today.

The presence of Yorubas in Benin preceded Oranmiyan, that is what many don't know (or don't want to agree with, because it breaks with a certain narrative), people want to conviniently agree that Yorubas only started flowing towards Benin/Edo with the Oranyan episode, that is untrue. In fact, let me blow your mind - The Uzama who facilitated the settling of Oranmiyan in the vicinity of Benin were already on ground since the early time of the Ogiso) I am talking of the likes of the Odofin (Edohen), Olifa (Oliha) and Aro (Ero). It is no wonder they shielded their brother from the tumults of Benin when Oranmiyan was trying to settle until he left again. The Ogiso-Ife link will make complete sense to any one who is willing to look with an open mind.

On the rest of what you said, I am glad you agree that the writers were not making up stuff.

RedboneSmith:
I thought it was common knowledge that linguistically, Ogori language (called Oko) belongs to the NOI group (Nupoid-Oko-Idomoid), and as such is closer to Nupe, Ebira, Gwari and Idoma, than to Yoruba or Edo.

If today they speak Yoruba and have adopted aspects of Yoruba culture, it is by the same process by which other small groups surrounded by the Yoruba (eg., the Western Apoi, Ayere-Ahan, etc) are progressively being Yoruba-ized.

N-O-I is just like Y-E-A-I.
So while Oko might be nominally closer to Nupoid compared to the languages in YEAI, it is an independent arm of that branch. The argument being made by the other guy was that the language was Idomoid or Edoid. He seems to be throwing those terms around without really understanding what they actually mean. It is the same as saying Etsako is Igboid or that Urhobo is Yoruboid because Yoruboid and Edoid are said to be on the same branch.
On the other hand, the case with the Apoi is a bit more complex because they intermarried heavily with the Ikale in the past and now are monolingual in a Yoruba dialect. This was what led to the Apoi language shift which is as a matter of fact complete, not in process. (It happened even before Nigeria)
Then in addition, the Ogori and Magongo claim an Ife point of origin just like the Ayere.

Thebadpolitican:
My mum is from ogori my father is an idoma man.... The idoma people calls ogori brothers I also schooled in edo north and I can tell the ogori are also close to the edo just like the idoma, but definitely not yoruba. I guess recent cultural influence brought in the yoruba antiquity

It's all coming together perfectly.

UGBE634:
I don't think that Oral account was gotten from Udo, if it was it is not what I will take so seriously, and these are the reasons for it,
1. there is no sign of yorubaness in Udo, it is not that they migrated to the centre and say okay maybe they were submerged, for example that of Usen is so easy to believe, one can understand that they migrated down and were not submerged totally since they are at the edge,they still manage to retain their dialect alongside incorporating the language of the natives they met on ground. what about Utesse, they seem to speak a strange dialect that seem to be a mixture of yoruba and Edo. so when they talk about their yoruba antecedent, it is easier to believe, but on the other hand, Udo speak pure Bini, and is the house for the mightiest shrine in Idu or Edo land which is the Eriwmin-Idu.

today it is hard not to go online and see an Edo man from other tribal descent maybe Esan or Urhobo talking about Igodomigodo and Idu and featuring Udo, and as they feature Udo, they will be telling you that the yoruba people came around, that is why their group migrated. There is nothing you will tell me scholes0, Udo is the town with the largest tales of migration, Etsako, Esan, Urhobo, Ijaw,they can't all be lying,they couldn't have migrated from there and seem to have very related dialects with Bini and other regions. Udo seem to be the very core of what the very Edo race stand for, Urhobo, Esan, Etsako, Benin etc. the earlier history seem to be influenced by the Oba of Benin and it is just recently after the fall out with the Oba's line that is when the Iyase begun telling his history his own way. If she did migrated from Ife, how did she submerge totally to now become the core of the Edo race, when she is at the periphery, we know Udo to be very ancient and our core. Udo is a strong aboriginal community that is in the western flank. alongside with oral traditions, other facts should help in substantiating these things, it is on these basis that I find this not to be true

If you are talking about the importance of towns in the Edo race, Udo is first, it is the primal town of all Edo people, Udo's influence extend properly beyond Bini even into other Edo tribes, when you see other Edo tribes talk about migrating from Benin , they are not talking about Benin city, they are talking about Udo,

The second would be Benin, then Urhonigbe. Udo is the uniting chord of all Edo people, it is Like the Ife of the yoruba people, there is no way she would have migrated from Ife and not distribute her yoruboid trait, there is no way Udo is a Migrants town from Ife and we are not yorubas, there is no way, because the migrant population from Udo is far larger than any other Benin community.

There are variations but Udo is at the core of what Edo is, the oldest families in Benin is from Udo

Lastly Edo is not a corruption of Udo nor was it gotten from it, vive-versa, what we have is that the name Edo was that of a servant who helped the Oba in ascending the throne and in turn the Oba named the Bini city and country they are distinct and light years apart, they did not in anyway affected each others name.

It is not believable, Udo is at the periphery, she is not yoruba speaking, she does not even speak it as one of her dialect, she does not even speak a mix, she speak super pure Bini that a man from The Eastern flank of Urhonigbe and Oza would not have any trouble comprehending. My brother Oudobo does not add up. My brother there is no community that is more Edo than Udo, if at all Udo migrated, then every other Bini communities migrated.

Neccesity is laid on me to defend what is ours, and that I would do passionately, Udo is not a Migrants town at all let alone being one from the south west. Udo is our core, I am an eastern Bini man but I tell you this with all confidence, Udo is our core and our rallying point not just for the Binis but for the entire Edo race. Intuitively and instinctively you will just know it is not true

While it is nice and all to defend the 'Edoness' of Udo this passionately (I would do the same if it were me), you can't possibly be saying all those people cooked up accounts of what they met and decided to lie 'on' the Udo people out of thin air. If there's one thing I have observed about some of these neutral party writings about Nigerian cultures, it is that they try to write to the best of their observation of what they saw and traditions they met.

You for example, claim that in Edo affairs, Udo is supreme - but the actual core of Benin society today which is BENIN CITY would actually disagree vehemently with you, and that was why I asked you that preceding question. You on the other hand only agreed because you knew what would happen if you disagreed. At any rate, Udo as the core of Edo people is an era long gone.

You didn't address any of the points I raised but rather pointed to linguistic evidence and oral accounts alone, while stating that it bodes on you to defend your heritage. While it MIGHT be true that the retention of Yorubanisms is weaker now in Udo than it is in Benin, that is because Benin actually defeated udo and many of its residents fled either to Benin or back west. The ton became empty and desolate and did not start growing again until around the 70s or so. Besides, Benin has been the capital and nexus of Edo people since then. Udo was neglected by the Uhe courts as Benin was the new capital.

In the 1940s P.R Page recorded a Benin tradition that Igodo who first ruled at Udo was not Edo but actually IFE. This was before the second Ife derived dynasty that produced the culture of those in the Usen-Utese axis that were able to retain their dialects because they were; (1) closer in time; (2) in continual touch with Ife.

Anyways, all that being said - It is already rare enough to find a Benin man that is willing to accept the truth about the source of Benin's present ruling dynasty... most deny it outrightly. One on this forum is even saying the story of Oduduwa and Oranyan never existed and that it was cooked up in the Western region of old. Expecting you to accept some other things I am bringing to limelight might be too forward of a push from myself, and I wouldn't expect you to just agree, not at all. So alas, nice one.

UGBE634:
it is

Good. Now that we have established that, check what the people of Udo originally claimed to have come from according to histographers like Darling and notes from the Partridge report in the two screenshots below.

Do you know why Benin's extensive system of deterring moats (iya) was mainly built to focus on and block influence from the eastern flank, and virtually none can be found towards west in the Usen-Udo-Siluko area (Iyekovia) adjoining Ondo even though Udo and Benin were bitter rivals for a very long period of history? The people to the west of the Osse (Ovia) river were NEVER at any time seen as enemies to either of Benin or Udo and they needed to keeep the constant tandemic communication between the Edo and the Yoruba of ife via the Ukoluhe (messengers of Ife) going smoothly and uninterrupted.

Infact, the most important historical and archaeological facts about Benin always point to this area in one way or the other. All the mothers of the early Obas of Benin came from behind the Osse river, up till very much later when the mothers of the Obas started to coming from the Orhiomwon area and further east side.