₦airaland Forum

@ Gamine & Pilgrim.1,
I actually had typed my last post before seeing you guys had cleared d misunderstanding. Sorry for that too.

@ Pilgrim.1,

Anyway, how are you doing? Grace

Am good, and you? Hope you had a swell weekend.

@ Gamine

I'm saddened that We Christians love to argue

It's unfortunate though. But maybe that's why its a forum. However i'm convinced that one can't win arguments with others of opposite views when it appears to others that you've won. However, for minds that are not well grounded in God's word and that need to learn, they either learn from the arguments and take a stand (for or against), while others even get more confused with the whole thing. Bottomline is someone like KunleOshob cannot accept Pilgrim's stance on the topic, just as Pilgrim (and I) won't accept his stance, based on our knowledge and what we feel is right. So i think, i'd rather let sleeping dogs lie.

@ Kunle Oshob,
i don't see why you keep having to refer to historical articles when trying to justify your opinion on a matter whereas God's word "The Holy Bible" should be what you should base your opinions on. According to Pilgrim.1's questions, where was tithes or tithing condemned in the scriptures?

@ Gamine,

Pilgrim, i can't believe that through all these long posts

You can't understand that a Christians giving is motivated by Love, Faith, Gratitude e.t.c

Same things that motivated Abraham.

i don't know why we have to keep going back and forth.

its saddening me o

Saying what you said above either proves you have not been following how this thread has evolved and Pilgrim.1's stance on the subject matter or you just intentionally want to make her look like she's saying these because of your contrary opinions. Pilgrim.1 and every other person here who would still rather tithe their income have consistently said it is an issue of love, faith and gratitude to God. So you don't have to be saddened, except its one of ur ways to just infuriate Pilgrim.1

Hi all,
Greetings to you.
Pilgrim.1,
You are simply amazing. Your fact-finding methods and way of analysis are simply commendable. Your persuasion for tithing as you outlined in the previous pages was also spot-on. Keep up the good work.
JJYOU,
Nice points too from you and the 1982 article you posted.

Paying one's tithe is much more a heart thing than a pocket thing.

@ Pilgrim.1,

Hmm. . @sleekmag, you have more grace and patience than I do. God bless you, because I'm learning.

God bless you richly my sister, cos you've been not only deep but also have been really insightful and no doubt many of us have learnt from you. However, it's always good to look critically at what we learn and weigh them accordingly.

@ pilgrim.1

Lol, thanks for quoting Adam Clark. . . but would it help to think for ourselves? I'm quite shy to set my thoughts on commentaries, even though some of them are useful.

When you brought in Neh 11:1, i had to compare my thoughts with others, and commentaries could be helpful, cos you see what different commentators say, as well as what different translations say, to help you have a deeper understanding. In a nut shell, Neh10:37-39 doesn't correlate with Neh11:1 as you put it, when talking about these offerings and tithes (except you want to enlighten me further on that).

However, here's a little thing to remember:

"WHY Jerusalem?"

What connected Jerusalem with all these gifts, offerings and tithes?

Maybe you could help me with why Jerusalem. But i know Jerusalem was the city of David, and was more like the capital of Israel, then (as in, the King and rulers of Israel dwelt there, and as a result, the chief priests also were meant to dwell there, God's temple was also there.


Besides, the scriptures are not that complicated, Num 18:24-26 explained it fair enough, and you referred us to Neh 10:38, still Neh 10:37-39 explained it easily. Yet you referred us to Ezra 8:24-30, and that came out clear it wasn't talking about tithes. I think it's not really this complicated.

@ KunleOshob,
If at all, there have been inconsistencies, it has been with you. First of all, you were totally against tithes, and had posted several articles against it and referred to those who still practised it as gullible. At some point on this thread, you went on to say that you're not condemning it, but that it's not meant to be mandatory, which we were never against. You also talked about being only farm produce, etc, of which i asked the house a question and haven't seen any yet.  I could go on and on.

As for Pilgrim.1 and I, at least we share a solid common ground, in that, tithes are not outdated as you purportedly make it seem. There's a mystery behind it, and not all that look can see. Besides, we both also agree nothing in the NT is compulsory, so your tithes shouldnt be do or die. If at all you give, it should be from a willing heart, not a cajoled heart or murmuring heart. So trying to get clarified on the issue of % according to our individual understanding shouldn't be a problem.

@ pilgrim.1,

So, what's the point? The point is that the "tithe of the tithes" in Nehemiah 10:38 was not focusing on the tithe of the Levites alone; but rather on the total value of Israel's tithes. How is this? Because in Ezra 8 we find that when all these things were brought in, they were "weighed" out in reference to what ISRAEL brought, and not what the Levites gave. That is why we read in Nehemiah 10:38 that the chief priest (representative of Aaron) was to be with the Levites when take the tithes. When this is done, the Levites took just a tenth portion of the collective tenth offered by Israel to "the house of our God, to the chambers, into the treasure house". Go on to chapter 11:1 and see that they had Jerusalem in mind when referring to the house of God.

Which again brings us to Ezra 8 - please read it again and see what is happening and then come back and let's see if what you were assuming in Nehmiah 10:38.

Ezra 8:24 -30 was only referring to offerings and not tithes (vs 25,28). And it was for the house of God and the King, leaders and all the people of Irael present there gave these.

Neh 10:38 was only talking about the tithe of tithes and not the offerings. Verse 37a talks about these offerings (firstfruits and others) and states that it goes to the chambers.

Nhe 11:1 on the other hand was talking about the people needed in Jerusalem.

1 ¶ And the rulers of the people dwelt at Jerusalem: the rest of the people also cast lots, to bring one of ten to dwell in Jerusalem the holy city, and nine parts to dwell in other cities. (KJV)

Jerusalem certainly had many inhabitants at this time; but not sufficient to preserve the city, which was now encompassed with a wall, and the rebuilding of which was going on fast. Nehemiah therefore obliged one tenth of the country people to come and dwell in it, that the population might be sufficient for the preservation and defence of the city. Ten were set apart, and the lot cast among them to see which one of the ten should take up his residence in the city. (Adam's Clark Commentary)

Sorry to still bother you Pilgrim.1, but I'm still not satisfied with your 1% explanations. Looking critically at Nehemiah 10:38, when we start from verse 37-39, we'll see this:

37 And that we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage. (KJV)

Note here that the levites collected the tithes (not tithe), from the children of Israel. And note the semi-colon which separates where the offerings go to and where the tithes go to.

38 And the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites, when the Levites take tithes: and the Levites shall bring up the tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God, to the chambers, into the treasure house. (KJV)

Note also that the levites brought only the tithe of the tithes to the chambers, i.e. God's treasure house.

39 For the children of Israel and the children of Levi shall bring the offering of the corn, of the new wine, and the oil, unto the chambers, where are the vessels of the sanctuary, and the priests that minister, and the porters, and the singers: and we will not forsake the house of our God. (KJV)

Note verse 39 states that all that were brought to the chambers were all the offerings collected (as stated in verse 37) but not all the tithes collected, they only brought the tithe of the tithes), where did the remaining tithes go to if they were not taken to the chambers? Verse 37 and 38 makes us see it went to the levites. So, in a nutshell, what went out of the pockets or barns of the Israelites, was never 1% but their tithes, which is 10%.

Can someone help me here?

1. If tithes were strictly farm produce, and the levites had no inheritance (and no income), and what they kept receiving was always farm produce (their portion of the tithes), how were they then able to get money to take care of their basic needs (as man cannot live by bread alone), clothes to wear, taking care of their household, things to buy etc. Or did they have other jobs too?

2. As time went on, the children of Israel certainly multiplied, but land is a fixed asset and doesn't multiply. At some point, so many people of the other 11 tribes wouldn't have had direct access to lands but they'll have had vocations. Are you saying these ones were not meant to pay their tithes, since they had no access to farm produce?

3. Also the levites themselves multiplied over the years (from generation to generation), with the fixed land, it means the tithes from farm produce would at some point have been inadequate, how would they have coped?

Hi pilgrim.1 & all,

@ pilgrim

I'm sorry, it does not say so. Shal we quote it again and see?

             Nehemiah 10:38_________________________________

             And the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites,
             when the Levites take tithes: and the Levites shall bring
             up the tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God,
             to the chambers, into the treasure house
             ______________________________________________

The "tithe of the tithes" was not pointing to the Levites own offering - no. The whole passage shows that it was the "tithe of the tithes" of all Israel that the Levites took into the treasure house. Please read it yet again. .  slowly, and you will see it. If I miss it yet, I'll be glad to consider it. When you read verse 39, what you are mistaking there for tithes are the "offerings" - please see it. The point is that the tithe of the tithes was simply "10% of 10%"  of that which Israel gave - it was that very portion that the Levites carried into the treasure house, instead of eating it there in the presence of the priest.

Why i'm on pilgrim.1's side cos i agree tithing shouldn't be made mandatory; it is not mandatory in the NT, but is God's mystery for prosperity. If you can claim all the blessings in the OT by obeying God's word, as well as the 10 commandments, then following the tithing commandment according to the melchizedek law (which abraham partook of) and whose order Jesus is (Jesus is a priest after the order of Melchizedek) shouldn't be seen by any1 as outdated.

However my point of disagreement with you pilgrim.1 still centers on the 10% or 1% issue. Tithe is strictly 10%. No more, no less.

Neh 10:38
38 And the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites, when the Levites take tithes: and the Levites shall bring up the tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God, to the chambers, into the treasure house. (KJV)

It's called the tithe of tithes cos the levites themselves had no inheritance. It was what they got from the children of Israel that they gave the tithes out of. In essence, they were also paying their own tithes, which was 10% of their allotment from the children of Israel. If 1% were the case, as in tithe of tithes, we would have had at least a scenario wherein the children of Israel brought their 1% directly to the high priest (since they could give 1% - the hallowed part, in your terms). But no, they always had to give 10%, and that was to the levites, then the levites gave 10% of that (their own tithes) to the priest. Cos the priest also was of the levite tribe.

Adam's Clark Commentary put it this way:
Verse 38.   [Tithe of the tithes]  The tithes of all the produce of the fields were brought to the Levites; out of these a tenth part was given to the priests.  This is what is called the tithe of the tithes.  The law for this is found, Nu 18:26.


Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Commentary also put it this way:
38. the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites, when the Levites take tithes--This was a prudential arrangement. The presence of a dignified priest would ensure the peaceful delivery of the tithes; at least his superintendence and influence would tend to prevent the commission of any wrong in the transaction, by the people deceiving the Levites, or the Levites defrauding the priests.

   the tithe of the tithes--The Levites, having received a tenth of all land produce, were required to give a tenth of this to the priests. The Levites were charged with the additional obligation to carry the tithes when received, and deposit them in the temple stores, for the use of the priests.

10ks pilgrim.1 for ur insight offered 2 anonimi. If she'd been following all our earlier posts with an open mind, maybe she'd have gotten what i was tryin to say there. It's usually not easy trying to win someone vehemently opposed to your views, however reasonable you might put your case.

I actually feel anyone's free to do whatever he/she likes as regards to the above since it seems our convictions must be personal and based on our actual relationship level with God and understanding of his will for our lives. If we all had the same common denominator operative in our lives, then it would be easier to find a balance. This common denominator is what i call the Holy Spirit. If he's active in our lives (we, the posters on this topic), i believe he'll show us what we need to know if we ask him.

Jn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. (KJV)

Jn 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (KJV)

So i believe if we ask him, he'll show us what we need to know. Moreover, our faith levels aren't the same, and we have don't have the same goals and expectations in life. For me, my tithe is compulsory (10%) cos i know where i'm going and am willing to give it all it takes. Two joggers jog down the road every morning, one plans to keep fit while the other hopes to be world champion in long distance races. Do you think they'll spend the same input during the jogging exercise? Of course not! Why? Cos' they've got different goals. REVELATION IS PERSONAL.

God bless you too my sister. Do have a great evening.

@ pilgrim 1. that is the problem i have with academic christians. there is no need to be ashamed my dear sister.  God will only ask from what He gave.  i came into europe with one box and nothing more. i was faithful in my thithing from ngr. when i got here i continued.  God blessed me and even gave me a flat unexpectedly in good old hackney of those days.  surprise surprise i was paying  less for the flat than i was paying for a room. it was actually £23 weekly.

i allowed a so called  christian brother to stay with me because he was homeless before you knew it he began to question everything that was important to me. for a period i stopped tithing and i can tell you financially things stopped too. listening to a tape some one blessed with. the preacher mentioned Gods safe point of blessing as the level at which you can maintain your obedience.  one of his many arguments was imagine what could have happened if abraham never offered isaac. he went to samson and others.  then ended saying God was not after what we have  but after what have and controlled us. i repented and vowed i would never stay in disobedience towhat i know was right again. i was stilll young.  i have said somewhere in this forum before one of the nightmares i had as a young man was that of poverty you could spell PO. i moved out my lovely slow poison friend

i made up my mind i was going to look up on anything biblical economics.  i bought anything i saw read,  listened and listened again. i am still learning.

today by Gods grace i tithe. being honest with you i don't work like others work but i know there is favour on me and my finances. crunch or no crunch i don't fear tomorrow  financially.  if tithing was wrong i would still continue doing  it because God has given me more than i need for me and my family. i always remember where i am coming from. i remember being the first person in my family sleeping on an foam that was because i went to the boarding school. i will not tell how many things had to be pawned to afford the 30 naira a term fees.  here we are talking about 10%. God has led many of us from a long way. let learn to be grateful

my in-laws tithe for generations not yet born.  i have loads of friends unbelivers sad to say who have never seen a bible for the last 10yrs give more than the 10% some people are arguing with here.  what is money?  if we say we love God, it should be our pleasure to give what we know belongs to Him willingly with a grateful heart

it looks okay to say people are stealing the money so we wont tithe or give but there are many evil people drinking water why can't we just stop because they are using it.

there will always be abusers of any rule and anything good.  we owe ourselves and not man the right to do good and right before God.  lets us learn to set our default settings to obeying God willingly rather than questioning what we don't know.

I also have a personal experience. There's what we call rhema, and that's what you get when you study God's word personally and ask for the Holy Spirit's help for revelation. I came to an understanding that why should i try to justify myself with God's word, seeing only the less tasking part by giving God 1% as tithe (as in Num 18:24-29) because the levites did that, or follow Deut 14:22-29 where the tither ate part of his tithe with members of his family, then gave a portion of it to the less privilege and the levite (pastor), both of which scenarios are very convenient to the tither and less tasking. God owns it all, all i have, all you have. What is 10% that's too much to give God everytime? I came to a deeper revelation that it's God's mystery for prosperity. You give your tithes not because you hope to prosper in return, but in true obedience to him and his work. There are people give much more to God; God doesn't need my blessings i am the one that needs his hands. The underlying motive for rationalising which is more appropriate to give is because we want to look for an easier way out. Tithing is not compulsory, giving is not compulsory, but you can't love without giving. If we claim we love God, our tithes shouldn't be a big deal. God so loved us that he gave his son to die for us.

Moreover, in the new testament sense 1 Pet 2:9, we are priests, a royal priesthood, called to show forth the praises of God.

God is after our hearts, that's what he wants. Life can be much simpler than all these analysis here and there, to and fro, in search of a truth that is available not by digging deep and cross-referncing the scriptures but by opening our hearts to him in sincerity for him to show us what we don't know.

Aye. But I don't remember saying that the children of Israel gave 1%.

You didnt say exactly that but inferred tithe could also be 1% or any other % with your various statements some of which are

(4) But is tithe not always 10% of our income?

Unfortunately, I’m not of those who see it as always and only 10%. Why not so? For the plain reason that the principle of tithes is stated clearly in Num. 18:29 to be simply the ‘best/principal/hallowed part’ of our offerings. This is why the ‘heave offering’ of the Levites (which was their own tithes) is only 1% of all the value of the tithes they received from Israel. This 1% is known sometimes as “the tithe of the tithes” (Neh. 10:38); and there is a difference between 1% and 10%.

6. the real value of tithing is not “how much” but rather “what is”

7. this value simply points to the ‘best part’ of all our offerings

8. this is why tithes or any other offering is not a matter of how much %

My point with you here, however is that if at all you tithe, it shouldn't be less or more than 10%. Of course you can give more as the spirit leads, but that 10% is what is your tithes. You can also give less, but to me that could be a freewill offering or thanksgiving offering, or to simply contribute towards the Lord's work, whichever your reason for giving is.

Num 18:26 explains it.

26 "Speak thus to the Levites, and say to them: 'When you take from the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them as your inheritance, then you shall offer up a heave offering of it to the LORD, a tenth of the tithe. (NKJV)

26 Moreover thou shalt speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithe which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up a heave-offering of it for Jehovah, a tithe of the tithe. (ASV)

So it means they had to collect the mormal 10% first from the children of Isreal, then give a tenth of it, to the High Priest, it's this part that's the heave offerings.

So that means the children of Isreal never tithed 1% but 10%.

1% got to the High Priest, while the remaining 9% went to the levites for their own upkeep, since they had no inheritance among the children of Isreal. I hope you understand this point of view.

Hi pilgrim.1 and everyone else in the house. I've been trying to do catch up with the enormosity of the posts, but i guess i had to quickly glance through after a while.There's a point you've raised (pilgrim.1) however, that i do not necessarily agree to and that is the fact that tithes could also mean 1% or any %

@pilgrim.1

(4) But is tithe not always 10% of our income?

Unfortunately, I’m not of those who see it as always and only 10%. Why not so? For the plain reason that the principle of tithes is stated clearly in Num. 18:29 to be simply the ‘best/principal/hallowed part’ of our offerings. This is why the ‘heave offering’ of the Levites (which was their own tithes) is only 1% of all the value of the tithes they received from Israel. This 1% is known sometimes as “the tithe of the tithes” (Neh. 10:38); and there is a difference between 1% and 10%. On very rare occasions, other people have given 100% of everything they had (eg., the widow’s mites or farthing – Luke 21:2-4). So, if someone is looking for exactly 10%, they have missed the very essence of what tithing points to – which is the ‘best/hallowed part’ of our offerings. This is why the NT does not stipulate an exact figure, but simply says that it should be ‘according to what a man has purposed in his heart’ (2 Cor. 9:7).

If you read that scripture (entire chapter) well, you'll see that the norm in those days is that whenever the levites get tithes from the children of isreal, they also had to give "a tenth of that tithe" to the high priest, which in this case, was Aaron and his sons. It is that part that is called the "heave offerings", which in essence meant that the levites also had to tithe what they got, which in this case is 10% of what they got from the children of isreal. And when you look at it from the high priest's angle, represents 1% of what the children of Isreal gave. The other 9% was what the levites kept for themselves.

When his compay was broken up in 1911 into 36 diferent comanies, its value was even found to be more than when it was just Standard Oil. Some of the companies it broke into include Exxon, Amoco, Mobil and Chevron, leaders in the oil sector even till date. ExxonMobil was ranked the number 1 on the Fortune 500 list in 2007 and is currently ranked number 2.

ExxonMobil currently ranks number 2 on the Fortune 500 list while Chevron ranks number 4. Can you beat that?

I thought your salary is your gross pay? you also PAY taxes. if you pay 10% of your net then your not being honest because you earn X naira and pay taxes, your tithe ( If you must pay) should be on your gross.

Let me put it like this. As an employee, i receive my paycheck, out of which tax has been removed already by my employer. Of what i receive as my salary, i tithe 10% of that, which in this case, may be seen as gross pay.

On the other hand, as a new entrepreneur, i pay tithes (or have a plan in place to do that) from my net profits, after overheads, salary, and taxes have been sorted. That's d way i see it.

One man I would always admire and respect is John D. Rockefeller.
John Davison Rockefeller (July 8, 1839 – May 23, 1937) was an American industrialist and philanthropist. Rockefeller revolutionized the petroleum industry and defined the structure of modern philanthropy. In 1870, he founded the Standard Oil Company and ran it until he officially retired in 1897.
Rockefeller kept his stock and as gasoline grew in importance, his wealth soared and he became the world's richest man and first American billionaire, and is often regarded as the richest person in modern history.

From his very first paycheck, Rockefeller tithed ten percent of his earnings to his church. As his wealth grew, so did his giving, primarily to educational and public health causes, but also for basic science and the arts. He was advised primarily by Frederick T. Gates after 1891, and, after 1897, also by his son.

Standard Oil was convicted in Federal Court of monopolistic practices and broken up in 1911. Rockefeller spent the last 40 years of his life in retirement. His fortune was mainly used to create the modern systematic approach of targeted philanthropy with foundations that had a major effect on medicine, education, and scientific research.
His foundations pioneered the development of medical research, and were instrumental in the eradication of hookworm and yellow fever. He is also the founder of both The University of Chicago and Rockefeller University. He was a devoted Northern Baptist and supported many church-based institutions throughout his life. Rockefeller adhered to total abstinence from alcohol and tobacco throughout his life.

When his compay was broken up in 1911 into 36 diferent comanies, its value was even found to be more than when it was just Standard Oil. Some of the companies it broke into include Exxon, Amoco, Mobil and Chevron, leaders in the oil sector even till date. ExxonMobil was ranked the number 1 on the Fortune 500 list in 2007 and is currently ranked number 2.

Some of John D. Rockefeller's quotes include

"I had no ambition to make a fortune. Mere money-making has never been my goal, I had an ambition to build".

"If your only goal is to become rich, you will never achieve it".

"God gave me my money. I believe the power to make money is a gift from God, to be developed & used to the best of our ability for the good of mankind. Having been endowed with the gift I possess, I believe it is my duty to make money & still more money & to use the money I make for the good of my fellow man according to the dictates of my conscience." John D. Rockefeller

@ Sarmy
In my own understanding let me attempt to answer your questions with or without scriptures as applicable.
The New Testament position is not opposed to tithing.
Heb 7: 8
Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives.
Mt 23:23, Lk 11:42 Here Jesus never opposed tithing but the scribes and pharisees and their approach.

1. What to pay as tithe (10% of gross income b/4 tax or net after tax including any other income or gifts)

From Deut 14:22, tithing is seen as "the tenth part of ur increase"
22"You shall truly tithe all the increase of your grain that the field produces year by year. (NKJV)
22 ¶ Thou shalt surely tithe all the increase of thy seed, that which cometh forth from the field year by year. (ASV)

Going by these, i pay 10% of my net income after tax, as my tithe.

2. When (monthly or weekly, regularly and consistently even when you are owing or having pressing financial needs, what about if you did not pay for a while, must you re-pay back)

One should pay his tithe as regularly as he/she earns it, or you could have a plan to make it monthly, quarterly or yearly, as you deem fit. However it should be paid willingly and cheerfully, whether in debt or not. Since it is God's portion and it definitely has its own attendant rewards. (Mal 3:10)

3. Where to and how (local church, local pastor or those in need or as led by the Spirit of God)

I pay mine to my local church, but basically, it should be as the spirit leads (Deut 14:25). It should be where you get spiritually nourished, which is in your church.
However say, you are a billionaire, and your company make billions of dollars annually, spreading your company's tithe around your church, the poor, disaster victims, NGOs, missionaries, corporate social responsibility etc. might make more sense than giving the whole lot to your church alone. (That's my opinion)

4. If a percentage of ones income is given to the local church and some to less privileged in the body of Christ/society but not as tithe, would this be acceptable to God.

When you give to God, he accepts it (as an offering, and not a tithe, since you didnt give it as a tithe in the first place) when it comes from a willing and cheerful heart.(2 Cor 9:7, Ex 35:5, Lev 23:38 etc.)

the article is flawed with lots of misunderstood scriptural connotations.

Wrong info there on David Oyedepo's birthdate. He was born on September 27 and not December 27.

@pilgrim.1

I must commend you for your insightful posts. Keep up the good work.

@KunleOshob

@sleeky mag
You people keep dancing round in circles and quoting the bible out of context. In deuteronomy 14 : 24& 25 you quoted, you deliberately left out verse 26 which said what you should use the money for. The money was meant to still purchase food and drinks (including wine and strong drinks which tithe preaching churches preach against) it also said you should eat the food(tithes) in God's presence. Now if tithe had been meant to be money, you would not have been required to use it to purchase food items talkless of consuming it yourself. Sleeky mag the fact that you deliberately omitted verse 26 which counters your wrong position on tithes mean that you know the truth but you just like pilgrim refuse to accept it. I don't think i would be available to keep on arguing back and forth on something that is soooooo glaring

i just didnt want to go into too much detail which was why i didnt have to go into verse 26. Look, the tithe being referred to in Deut 14:22-29 is the second tithe.

Verse 22.   Thou shalt truly tithe]  Meaning the second tithe which themselves were to eat, De 14:23, for there was a first tithe that was given to the Levites, out of which they paid a tenth part to the priests, Nu 18:24-28; Ne 10:37,38.   Then of that which remained, the owners separated a second tithe, which they ate before the Lord the first and second year; and in the third year it was given to the Levites and to the poor, De 14:28,29. In the fourth and fifth years it was eaten again by the owners, and in the sixth year was given to the poor.  The seventh year was a Sabbath to the land, and then all things were common, Ex 23:10,11.

Also remember girl 3:13, 14. That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith (vs 14).
Also verse 29 of girl 3 says that "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise".

Sorry i meant Galatians

@ Kunle Oshob from ur earlier post

The type of tithing which is being practised today (compulsory ten per cent of all income) is completely unscriptural hence the reason i called it a false doctrine. Biblical tithing never included money, it was always farm produce and the tither and his family ate out of it and also shared with the less priviledge (deut 14: 22-29).

Though in the old testament, they gave tithes of their farm produce and flocks etc, that's because the major occupation in those days was farming and animal husbandry.
Deut 14:22 says "You shall truly tithe all the increase of your grain that the field produces year by year.

In today's world, what is the common denominator that people use to measure their increase? It's in their finances"money".

Even Deut 14:24,25 talks about the conversion to money if the place is far. However even today, people still pay their tithes with increases of their farm produce, and its not wrong. At least i witnessed it when i was serving (NYSC) in one of the eastern states a few years ago. So money a a type of tithe is not an issue here.

To Tithe or not to Tithe? My answer - TO TITHE

Sometimes, when trying to explain, if the Holy Spirit doesn't open your eyes to see deep things in God's word, you'll be easily caught up into thinking tithe is old-fashioned or an old testament doctirne. Hebrews 7 says it all if u allow urself to be taught by the Holy Ghost, and not that u just want to use your knowledge to decipher these mysteries.

Jesus Christ came to coonect us to the Abrahamic order of blessings, whether Gentiles or Jews.
Below is an excerpt culled from my response to a similar thread. Take Note KunleOshob.


One opinion i noticed some have is seeing tithing in today's modern world as obsolete and a tool with which most of these men of God use to get at the finances of their members. I have read what other posts say concerning this isue and have undergone personal study as well, and came to a conclusion that not tithing will not make you go to hell, but it is God's commandment for prosperity (although we know you can still prosper outside of that).

Heb 7:1-28 talks about the new testament position on tithes. Heb 7:8 says that "And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth (that's Jesus Christ). Abraham, the first tither, gave tithes to Melchizedek, King of Salem (a man with no record of ancestors nor descendants, nor beginning of days nor end of life) Heb 7:1-3.

It goes on to say that Jesus Christ is a priest after the order of Melchizedek (vs 17). Priesthood changed from d levitical priesthood to that of the order of Melchizedek (vs 11). With the coming of Jesus Christ, he came to give us a better testament (vs 18, 19, 22), because in the old days priests that were not holy themselves (vs 27) offered tithes, sacrifices and offerings to God .

Jesus Christ is the one we pay tithes to today, he is the high priest who receives the tithes from us. Even in the old testament, God never came down to earth to collect the tithes himself (apart from the Melchizedek/Abraham incident), it was those priests and levites that collected them, and it was used for the work of the Lord, for the welfare of the priests, as well as for distributing to the widows and orphans etc. Jesus himself also commanded us to go into the world and preach the gospel to all the ends of the earth (Mt 28:18-20), he commissioned some into ministry, which we have today in churches and as they do God's work, the same blessings tied to tithing in the old testament, is the same order of blessings available to any tither today.

So those making cases, saying that tithes are no longer necessary since they were specifically meant for the levites, one of the twelve tribes of Isreal in the old testament, need not say so. Also remember Gal 3:13, 14. That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith (vs 14).
Also verse 29 of girl 3 says that "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise".

Remember the genealogy is Abraham - Isaac - Jacob - (His twelve sons, the twelve tribes of Isreal). So how are we absolved of paying tithes in today's modern world, when Jesus Christ has connected us to the Abrahamic order of blessings?

Hmm, poster, poster. I read your posts with the intention of trying to understand what you're getting at. Whilst common sense is a factor that must be displayed in the quest to having a successful ministry or business, the true principles underlying any successful enterprise (be it ministry or secular business) are basically the same. That one is a pastor or has been called to ministry, doesn't mean he should be a mediocre; he could be as successful as the one who decides to go into oil and gas, nothing wrong with that (if done with right intentions). He should exploit all necessary but just means to attain success at his calling. The parable of the ten talents give credence to that. Moreso, he said "Do business with it till i come". God expects us to live fulfilling lives, maximise our talents here on earth, know our purpose (or calling) and give it our all. It's one thing to run with the vision, it's another thing to just know the vision and not do enough. The seed of greatness is in us all.

One opinion i noticed some have is seeing tithing in today's modern world as obsolete and a tool with which most of these men of God use to get at the finances of their members. I have read what other posts say concerning this isue and have undergone personal study as well, and came to a conclusion that not tithing will not make you go to hell, but it is God's commandment for prosperity (although we know you can still prosper outside of that).

Heb 7:1-28 talks about the new testament position on tithes. Heb 7:8 says that "And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth (that's Jesus Christ). Abraham, the first tither, gave tithes to Melchizedek, King of Salem (a man with no record of ancestors nor descendants, nor beginning of days nor end of life) Heb 7:1-3.

It goes on to say that Jesus Christ is a priest after the order of Melchizedek (vs 17). Priesthood changed from d levitical priesthood to that of the order of Melchizedek (vs 11). With the coming of Jesus Christ, he came to give us a better testament (vs 18, 19, 22), cos in the old days priests that were not holy themselves (vs 27) offered tithes, sacrifices and offerings to God .

Jesus Christ is the one we pay tithes to today, he is the high priest who receives the tithes from us. Even in the old testament, God never came down to earth to collect the tithes himself (apart from the Melchizedek/Abraham incident), it was those priests and levites that collected them, and it was used for the work of the Lord, for the welfare of the priests, as well as for distributing to the widows and orphans etc. Jesus himself also commanded us to go into the world and preach the gospel to all the ends of the earth (Mt 28:18-20), he commissioned some into ministry, which we have today in churches and as they do God's work, the same blessings tied to tithing in the old testament, is the same order of blessings available to any tither today.

So those making cases, saying that tithes are no longer necessary since they were specifically meant for the levites, one of the twelve tribes of Isreal in the old testament, need not say so. Also remember Gal 3:13, 14. That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith (vs 14).

Also verse 29 of Gal 3 says that "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise".

Remember the genealogy is Abraham - Isaac - Jacob - (His twelve sons, the twelve tribes of Isreal). So how are we absolved of paying tithes in today's moern world, when Jesus Christ has connected us to the Abrahamic order of blessings?

In a nutshell, churches that ask members for tithes are not extorting the members. It's for those who want to connect to God's blessings, not that they levy members compulsorily (in my church they don't), and its up to your conscience. That's not to say there are no pastors who capitalize on this to defraud their members and enlarge themselves. If the pastors eat up the tithes or use it however they want, it's their own cup of tea, but it would be registered in heaven that i paid my tithes and i'd be entitled to the blessings attached to the covenant of tithing. Let me stop here for now, it's already getting to long.

@ paulipopo

This Post will mean different things to different people. To the open minded it could mean a satire, to the ignorant, Zealot, hypocritical and Sadistic, it will amount to nothing more than an attempt to undermine the work of God. To yet another group it will be an attention grabbing piece that achieves absolutely nothing on the positive side. But to me it is a true reflection of things I have observed among some men of god, the massive business empires they preside over, the attempts and strategy they have applied all these years to arrive at their present states. This write up is going to demonstrate the sad reality of opportunism, deception, greed and ambition combining forces to wreck havoc on the social fabric of the Nigerian Society. It will include an expose on the five biggest Holy Businessmen in Nigeria (David Oyedepo, Enoch Adeboye, Chris Oyakhilome, Temitope Joshua and Mathew Ashimolowo in that order) and the vast businesses they preside over.
So if you are interested in becoming super rich and you wish to find an easy route to the top of the business world be on the look out in the coming weeks as I take you through a mini Course I have Christened " How to become a Super Rich Holy Businessman or pastor"

Whether a satire or a deliberate attempt to undermine the work of God or according to the poster's stated motives, the true reflection of things you've observed among some men of God, bottomline is who are you to judge them as opportunists that use deception, greed and ambition to wreck havoc on the social fabric of the Nigerian society? Who made you the referee, or the umpire to judge? Is God so powerless and helpless that he requires your help to stop more people from being gullible to their whims and caprices? Have you thought for a moment, what if you're wrong in your judgement and analysis? Haven't you read in the bible "Touch not mine annointed and do my prophets no harm"? Even if you're right, you think you're very qualified to help God? Remember Uzzah in 2 Samuel 6:6-7 whom God smote because all he did was try to help prevent the Ark of Covenant from falling? Wisdom is profitable to direct and in matters concerning ministry work, God calls people into ministry, it's not like any other vocation where one may just decide to plunge into. Many have rushed in and rushed out. Many others are barely managing to survive. Some of these ministries have stood the test of time, and didn't get to where they are just like that. It really takes more than your supposed analysis.

Just like I anticipated, this POST truly means different things to different people. All kinds of wandering and pointless arguments are surfacing, just as some people are really making sense.

From now on I will strictly concentrate on the course and leave everybody to say whatever he/she likes. There is simply no need to get distracted at this point.

I want to announce a time-table commencing from September 11. The course modules will be released on a 2 or 3 day interval depending on the situation of things.

The course may or may not end by the 30th of September. It all depends on the turn out of things down here with me.

Till the end of the course.

Well, those hoping to gain knowledge thru this course cannot be sure it will really work for them except the lecturer (a.k.a. poster) has a first-hand experience of the applications of the modules being taught in the capacity of a Rich Holy Businessman Pastor. Tell us do you have a ministry, and have you applied these principles to your minstry cos you can't be too sure that these men of God you're quoting are operating 100% with your principles in their quest to becoming Super rich holy businessmen. Or haven't you heard that if one wants to enter a certain business, wisdom demands that he asks those already successful in that business rather than textbook businessmen or theoretical businessmen? Where are your own personal proofs? Sure you're one of them, abi? else, its just all theories, and another way to draw attention to yourself thru your so-called personal justification.

I've been following this thread from the first page and i understand where the poster is coming from. The 48 Laws of Power written by Robert Greene talks about how to acquire this sort of power and transform it into whatever you wish, whether wealth accumulation or just a leader with unquestioned followership, and also how to prevent being manipulated by people who tend to use these laws whether knowingly or just instinctively. Maybe the poster may have at some point read this book or similar books and thought he could analyse everything. Some of the laws include but are not limited to the following:

Law 12 - Use Selective Honesty and Generosity to Disarm your Victim (One sincere and honest move will cover dozens of dishonest ones; can be used to catch and deceive unsuspecting suckers [magas]).
Law 13 - When asking for help, appeal to people's self interest, never to their mercy or gratitude (a sure-fire way for anyone to make wealth, pastors or ordinary businessmen).
Law 27 - Play on people's need to believe to create a cultlike following (people have an overwhelming desire to believe in something).
Law 30 - Make your accomplishments seem effortless (Your actions must seem natural and executed with ease).
Law 31 - Play to people's fantasies (The truth is often avoided because it is ugly and unpleasant).
Law 43 - Work on the hearts and the minds of others (You must seduce others in wanting to move in your direction).
Law 46 -Never appear too perfect
Law 48 - Assume formlessness
etc.

Whilst some of the poster's claims can be said to be true, it is wrong to entirely claim that these men are in business for the sole aim of making money, or would the case have been different if they were not commanding that much wealth and power which they do.
NOTE: THE LINE BETWEEN TRUTH AND SEEMING TRUTH IS QUITE NARROW. At some point you could get confused and may start questioning your pastor's motives and integrity. The devil uses this tool to further confuse the innocent and unsuspecting christian in search of truth but brainwashed time and again by such posts as have been seen on this website. The result, people like some on this forum begin to lose faith and resolve towards personal christianinty. I could go on and on, but bottomline is dat the devil's aim is to confuse more people.

In your church, rather than worship the man of God, worship God and take God's word as law, the man of God is just like you and of course could exhibit some flaws from time to time which may cause you to look down on his calling and ministry, but it doesn't mean that he's not sent by God into ministry. Do your own discovery, salvation is personal. Wealth is good, if men of God are genuinely rich, so, where's the problem there? Does it mean they aren't sent? Must they e poor and non-influential?

What a world! Where, if not checked, anything, including despicable levels of immorality happens. Self-control, contentment (with what you have), and patience, is what we need in this ever-increasing self-centred and greedy world.

What if it happens that the man is not the true owner of the sister's pregnancy? If she (the wife's sister) could be doing with her brother-in-law, she could as well also have a relationship outside but have the intention to dethrone her married sister.