₦airaland Forum

OtemAtum:
_ × + =_

Since the miracle is staged and acted, anything there had to be fake to me. I don't tolerate staged miracles in whatever way. The thing is staged, that's the bottom line.

Can i also assume you are staged sir? Is there a real person typing these words i am reading? For all i know you could also be fake and writing from a script of your own making. So what makes you any different from that which you criticize? You were not a witness to what transpired so cannot be an authority. I am not where you are to see you for who you are so i can also say you are staged and a fake can i not sir?

Sarassin:
I watched this video. The man whom everyone claimed was mad sat in church in quiet contemplation whilst those around him were going mental and rolling on the floor. If this man were truly mad before then the sight of so many people displaying their own peculiar brand of madness in his presence would have been more than enough to shock him into lucidity.

This video is what passes for 21st century evangelism in Nigeria today and then we wonder why some random troll on these forums says Sub-Saharan Africans are intellectually inferior.

Any illusion relies on a classic diversion. The more you look, the less you see.

I don't doubt the potency of Divine healing but I am sorry this is not one.

I beg to differ sir. People with mental disorders such as Hysteria, schizophrenia,autism spectrum disorder or even bipolar disorder are not always violent. They also experience mood swings but generally receive antidepressants such as Zoloft as a safe guard for the one mentally ill and not due to constant violent behaviour or a perceived danger to others.

One of the most misleading assumptions out there is that people with mental conditions are dangerous and violent. This is not true. I think you watch too many movies and follow what is depicted in the movies about people with mental illness.

The face of mental illness can be the same as any other. It doesn’t make people look or behave in any way we are guaranteed to notice or perceive as abnormal. However in this case the simple chaffing on his wrists and waist and dark rings around his wrists and ankles plus the lacerations can only come about from prolonged periods of being bound using something very uncomfortable like a chain which has uneven links and loops. If he was bound with a rope you would only see dark rings but not chaffing. Lacerations of that nature in those regions from being bound is often caused by attempted struggle not once or twice but often.

My focus has been on his injuries and if they were real or not and i can very well say that they are real. Regarding his mental state without a proper check i cannot say but the physical signs were there in the video however if i combine that with his being bound for lengthy periods as i already observed then i can say he most likely was mentally ill.

OtemAtum:
What I'm telling you is that those who made the video were artists who are well grounded in psychology, but for those who have inner eyes, they can easily detect the fakeness of the drama put up there.

first you focused on the injuries and called them fake and i have shown you that they are not and that you are the one trying to be deceitful. Now you are shifting from the injuries you earlier claimed as fake to the video and how it played out? What really is the problem with you sir? Do you have an issue with videos or injuries or you simply have an issue with seeing good stuff happen?

OtemAtum:
My eyes are psychologically well trained and since the video is trying to show us a psychological artwork, I could detect its fakeness straightaway. However, the explanation you were making up there still didn't make sense, but only to the gullibles will it make sense.

Psychological "artwork"? Use words you can relate with sir. Since you allege that my explanation makes no sense to you then it means you are medically deficient in knowledge to be able to tell the difference between physical superficial wounds and profound wounds. You would never make a credible trauma analyst especially when you use terms like psychological artwork in exchange for actual injuries.

OtemAtum:
Keep deceiving yourself.

Deceit? You used pictures to try to push your deception which was why I said a trained eye can tell the difference. So if I may ask sir how well trained are your eyes medically?

OtemAtum:
As graphic as this picture below is, yet it isn't real. It is a snapshot from a Nollywood movie. Now tell me why the one here should be realler than this.

I took my time to watch the video first. All of it. It takes a trained eye to detect reality from make believe and I am a trained eye sir with 6 years Paramedic experience and another 3 in the trauma unit of a hospital. The first pictures of the mad man are true injuries as they clearly show chaffing on the skin and lacerations going below the skin line with no inflammatory indication. Plus you can clearly see the flaking skin from chain burns or from the lengthy cutting off of blood supply to his wrists and ankles from the chains being on too tight which would also cause the lacerations on his wrist and ankles.

Your own picture however is a clear fake as cuts of that nature in your picture do not have clean swells around the edges. When they do it's septic and I see none of that in your picture. Plus the cuts are too consistent to be real which also shows that it's made up.

In movies people tend to overdo the injury look and like I said, a trained eye can tell the difference.

CatfishBilly:
Autoresuscitation is spontaneous resumption of cardiopulmonary function after normal resuscitation failed. We are saying the same thing. I've never defined it differently from you. The only difference is that you think it is one huge mystery while I think it's not, evidenced by how many times it has appeared in Medical literature and the possible explanations put forward.

As for your guy with spikes in the head, I've given you a case in medical literature. Phineas Gage a thick metal rod went in through one part of his skull and came out through the other. The metal was still stuck in his skull when he walked to the cart and driven to the hospital. These things are not unheard of.
As per your patient having pneumothorax, you met him on the scene dead, how did you diagnose pneumothorax? Did you take history, physical exam, did a chest x-ray, CT scan?

Your last question shows me clearly that you are not a medical practitioner. How on earth would you even ask me about how we were able to accurately diagnose pneumothorax? You asking a paramedic how he or she got to accurately assess a pneumothorax is outrageously ridiculous and it shows you and I are not speaking the same language sir.

When you meet an accident victim with head and chest injuries and deep puncture wounds to his chest region and head that causes tension pneumothorax as air passes through those puncture wounds to crowd the abdominal region and stifling the lungs and if the lungs are punctured then air passes in and also passes out so the lungs suffer pressure loss and tension pneumothorax is the result. This patient had his chest region punctured in numerous places and his lungs too. At first assessment the surgeons at Lewisham observed the same thing and first used staples to close him up before attempts at resuscitation began. Whenever we bring in anyone we are expected to make a quick medical report as first Medical responders in order to aid the doctors accurately render further help. We cannot and must not get it wrong or that would be the end of it.

This is why we are different from your regular medical people. We work like soldiers on the battlefield who need to make rapid on the spot assessments and respond accordingly that's why our universal focus as emergency personnel is high speed in everything we do because a minute delay could be the reason you live or die.

There is no medical journal that can explain away a mystery. What's unknown is unknown and would remain so until it is observed and seen to respond to a particular medical process and work then it moves from being unknown to known. But for now your desire to be fixated on what you think is an explanation is absurd to say the least sir.

CatfishBilly:
I thought a back and forth is called a debate. I'm sorry then.
I'm sure in all these cases that you've seen, resuscitation attempts we're made. The Crux of the matter is that in all these cases resuscitation was attempted before autoresuscitation occurred. I'm not talking about cases where there was no resuscitation attempt.
In the cases reported in medical journals, prayers weren't even reported as a possible contributory factor.
Phineas Gage in 1848 had a metal rod impaled into his skull damaging his frontal lobe but still walked to the cart that took him to the hospital.
All I am saying is Autoresuscitation has been established in medicine, it is not a myth, it is not someone's imagination,it has nothing to do with spirituality, it has been steadily reported, in fact, some authors argue that it is under reported.

You need to first establish what autoresuscitation is sir. It's automatic and with no external assistance at the time of resuscitation. Can a person with pneumothorax be able to breath unaided? Without a medical ventilator it's impossible. This bloke came back alive breathing unaided. We met him dead at the scene. Such sights are not imaginable with 2 spikes in his head and massive bleeding both internal and external. He was like a pin cushion. For 5mins we worked on him as we drove to the hospital. Lividity had already began to set in.

At the hospital he was worked on for over 10mins and declared dead after that and then unhooked.

Without external medical assistance no dead body can be revived but he came to unaided. It would have been a different story if you say he had no severe injuries to his head and chest region but he did and to be able to breath unaided from pneumothorax is absolutely impossible.

You really need to get a handle on what autoresuscitation really is sir because it doesn't seem you do. Note that it happens only after failed cardiopulmonary resuscitation. This means that medically all that needed to be done was done but failed. No external medical assistance yet the dead returned and this is why it's a medical mystery.

CatfishBilly:
I'm actually enjoying in. Best debate I ever had on Nairaland, sadly she's no longer quoting me.
Call her anytime you like, I'm always open to debates.

A debate? Sorry sir I thought it was a simple discussion. You got a whole lot wrong medically on the issue of autoresuscitation because as far as medical science is concerned it's a huge mystery still. It's called autoresuscitation from the medical angle because they had no hand in it so cannot take credit for it.

Personally I have seen at least 4 of such cases on the field and 2 stayed dead for over 30 mins while we worked on their bodies trying and looking for any signs of life. I wasn't much of a prayer person at that time but my fellow paramedic was and I remember him praying all through the ride to the hospital for one of them and we dropped off the body at the emergency hospital at Lewisham. The doctors hooked him up right before us and he had already flatlined. We walked out of the room with Mattie (my fellow paramedic). Time of death was called and we were about leaving the hospital when a nurse ran out and called everyone back in that the dead man just opened his eyes. This was someone with Hematoma. With 2 long metal spikes driven into the side and back of his skull from the impact of the accident, collapsed lungs and dead for 15mins or so before we got there. The drive to the hospital took 5mins. He woke up breathing!

The other which was over 30mins was a code blue. I have seen a lot of gory stuff sir so I am not in here for a debate. Medical science is doing their bit but it does not end there. Trust me because I know.

felixomor:
Cant you see everybody is highlighting exactly what I told you about your points yesterday?

When many people keep spotting something foolish about a post, its time to rethink

I think he has something seriously against spiritualism which is why he is so adamant on an obvious error and hypocritical analysis.

akintom:
You're obviously having difficulty, in attending this discussion with sufficient attention span.

My response was to your "probable" spiritual (prayer) intervention, revitalizing a dead body.

How can you claim it's probable (Scientifically speaking), when such claimed dead, was not so certified by scientific procedure, before your claimed prayers, that revitalized the dead.

Isn't ridiculous to be attempting to educate me, when you're tending to being a charlatan here?

Sorry I responded to you in the first instance. I will cease forthwith for the simple fact that the words "unknown" seems to hold a different meaning with you especially when you attach conclusion to it as a lean.

Have a great day sir

CatfishBilly:
Of course it's conclusive. A colleague posted about a classic case about one week ago. That the mechanism is unknown doesn't make it false. A whole host of medical conditions were unknown before research solved it.


I've not.
Have you seen an Ebola patient?
Have you seen a Patient with Crutzfeld-Jacobs disease.
That you haven't seen doesn't make it false.

It's conclusive yet unknown? Wow.
So since the mechanism is unknown how did you arrive at your conclusion and what makes it false or right? Being neutral should be your best position especially since you are putting unknown and conclusive in one sentence.

I thought you said you brought a dead body back to life so how then did you confirm death since you said here that you have not seen a patient flatline before sir.

akintom:
You are the one making mockery of scientific reasoning here.

Basic knowledge of controlled experiment, should have guided your understanding of my post.

"probable results"?

*How do you probe into a death, that was CLAIMED to be revitalized, when such death was not medically certified FIRST, before the prayer?

You are the one making mockery of everything you have said. Let me rephrase your question in a way you might understand.

How do you probe into a revitalization of the dead without medical assistance after being medically certified as dead?

You see it works both ways which is why I urged that you would have said "I don't know" and not your emphatic no.

CatfishBilly:
Argumentum ad ignorantiam is the non religious variant. Go and read it up.

Not interested in your gibberish. I am interested in the word "unknown". Does it have a different meaning to you sir?

CatfishBilly:
So you try to discard my claim and want me to accept yours? The sheer hypocrisy, man
That is why I brought in a neutral figure, like every other medical researcher does all over the world. Research articles published in reputable journals. If you don't want to accept it, that's your problem.

If you are so convinced about your experiences, write an article on it and publish let's see if it will survive peer review.

Did you say write an article? I believe I mentioned somewhere that I am no paper pusher. Can you give me one such article you have written since you believe so much in articles. Afterall you have revived a dead person before haven't you so you must be an authority figure right?

CatfishBilly:
At the bolded now where did I say that? If you don't understand what I wrote, come out plain and ask for explanation. Don't infer, don't assume, just ask.

I've explained everything about ICD10 to you, it's not my fault if you still refuse to understand.

Since you say you have explained icd10 can you tell me if it's conclusive or not sir. From what you know about it is it medically applicable or fiction.

Have you seen a patient flatline before and unplugged and covered up to be taken away to the morgue and suddenly come alive and sit up without medical assistance?

akintom:
6. Could words (prayer), be responsible for the unknown? No

Unknown = certain revitalized dead.

Could prayer be the reason? No

Why?

* certain revitalized dead, had occurred without prayer

So, prayer couldn't have been the cause of the unknown.

Your answer should have been "I don't know" and not an emphatic no. That's when you would have made sense sir Especially when medical assistance was not available when spirituality was applied with probable results.

CatfishBilly:
This is a variant of God of the gaps argument/Argumentum ad ignorantiam. Because it is unknown therefore it must be prayers.

God of the gaps or whatever you call it isn't my point. I am talking medicine and not Religion. Absolutely nobody can offer a leaning conclusion to an unknown matter. This shows that for such even an observation is lacking. So no observation, no conclusion!

Can we stick to medicine sir?

CatfishBilly:
See, that is the beauty of science. It is constantly updated. Every scientist sees the other as a rival and they are constantly trying to discredit each other.
If any conspiracy or falsehood is found, it is quickly discarded and the author disgraced.
My science is not dogma driven, it is based on evidence. I can't say same about your religions though.

You say your science is based on evidence yet you disregard myself who has on the job daily experiences as evidence? You are another dishonest fellow sir.

Your idea of science isn't based on personal evidence but literature on the purported evidence given by others. The only time you gave an evidence was when you said you have also through probable CPR brought a dead person back but even those are just words with nothing to prove your claim.

Even if I chose to go with your claim can you explain the process that took place which brought about the death and revival of that person and who certified the person dead.

akintom:
If you read the OP well, it's stated that, there were other revitalized dead, who were never prayed for.

Again, there were dead (decapitated, disembowelled etc), that never revitalize despite ocean volume of prayers and fasting.

Your statement here is not an answer sir. I asked how you could be emphatic with an answer when you even termed your observation as unknown.

You cannot offer a leaning conclusion on an issue that is inconclusive and unknown by and to everyone. That's gross dishonesty in observation sir.

akintom:
The crux

1. do we yet understand the human physiology absolutely? No

2. is there a 100% (absolute) medical procedure, by which death can be certified, in ALL cases of death suspicion? No

3. can we have a case of revitalization, after death has been certified, based on present level of medical procedures? Yes

4. do we have absolute medical explanation, for the rare cases of revitalized dead? No

5. Is whatever responsible for the revitalization, part of physiology of the dead? Yes

6. Could words (prayer), be responsible for the unknown? No

7. Therefore, "miraculous revitalization" is a religious assumption for the unknown.

Your thesis sir is quite contradictory. Since you term number 6 as unknown how then can you be emphatic with your conclusion regarding prayer especially when Medicine is baffled by it?

CatfishBilly:
Well, in medical research, patients are not identified, confidentiality clause, unless express permission is granted. And videos including YouTube defeats that purpose.
It is amazing that medical personnel tend to rubbish medical journals when it doesn't fit their rhetoric. But the hypocrisy now is that the same medical journals that you rubbish gave you the treatment guidelines you use to manage patients all in the name of evidence based medicine.
But the good news is that your opinion is irrelevant, it has been published in reputable journals and people that matter have accepted after it going through peer review of course.

So my opinion is irrelevant right? Ok then sir I suppose this article isn't from the same reputable medical journal you posted.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2322888/

You can start reading from postgraduate medical training to understand the dishonesty in trusting journals without verification.

Like I said at the start I have on the field experience and can tell you what works and what doesn't. I am not a paper pusher.

CatfishBilly:
Now, where did I say that? Don't misquote me, I beg you. If you don't understand what I wrote, ask for clarifications.


Did I ever say anything contrary to what you wrote up there?
Sustained apnea can cause death of neurons starting from the 5 minute mark.

Clinical or brain death?

Actually sustained apnea can cause neurological death from the 1 minute mark and not 5minutes.

Explain both clinical and brain death pls. I require both

CatfishBilly:
Did I say 100%? Please show me where in the post you quoted where I said 100%?
Anybody can come out and claim anything on YouTube.
I'm talking about medical journals you're talking YouTube.

Are medical journals, medical observations, medical research or same writers of those journals not featured or mentioned on YouTube? YouTube is just for information spread through video and honestly speaking videos hardly lie unlike what is written in black and white by whoever at wherever. Videos offer you a practical visual aid and evidence while literature is purely fiction until proven.

CatfishBilly:
That is why I'm of the opinion that your friend didn't die.
It is science. A brain can't handle 12 hours of no oxygen without a scar. There must be paralysis or intractable seizures. I'm not even talking about out right death now.

So apnea at death which deprives the brain of oxygen under anoxia and no cardiovascular activity isn't death?

Your brain is actually being kept alive by your lungs sir. You breathe in oxygen and your blood gets oxygenated and this is pumped by your heart to all parts of your body including your brain. Your brain cells are alive because of oxygenated blood it is being fed with. Take away the oxygen and your brain dies.

Can you explain what death truly is to me sir?

CatfishBilly:
If your friend died for 12 hours without oxygen supply. I highly doubt of he would walk out of the morgue with his 2 legs, do you know the amount of brain damage associated with 12 hours of hypoxia?

It's anoxia sir and not hypoxia. Total lack of oxygen supply is anoxia while extremely low supply of oxygen is hypoxia

hopefulLandlord:
could it be that she woke up during surgery? it happens a lot bro

He said the lady observed the surgery as if looking at it with a birds eye view and not from the operating table. Birds eye view affords detail.

felixomor:
Exactly.
Thank u for the answer brother.

I am a sister sir o

onyenze123:
Out of Body? What is moving out of human body? Soul?

I have watched a documentary about a lady hit by a racing car in German. The lead doctor that handled her case is a staunch atheist. He was really shocked after the lady narrated how the operation procedure was carried out ( as if she looked directly from the roof top). Science will try it best to explain some things but let's not rule out the spiritual perspective

Pls are pictures capable of being posted here? How do I do that pls?

felixomor:
Yes of course like in any teaching hospital



A trained registrar of course
Whats your point?


Yes i think so.

Lets assume all the questions u asked are points worthy?
Do you know the number of hours it takes for brain cells to start dying without oxygen?

@ 10 to 12 minutes of anoxia leads to permanent brain damage. Brain cells begin to die from the very first minute of anoxia

CatfishBilly:
You still didn't answer if any resuscitation attempts we're made.
Who certified him? Was a heart/EKG monitor attached to confirm absolute cessation of electrical impulse from the heart?

How reliable would you say an FMRI or EEG or MEG monitors or imaging really are? On a scale of 1 to10 how would you rate them?

CatfishBilly:
You're a medical personnel? That's great then. Read the links in the OP. They describe it perfectly. I mean, medical journals can describe it way better than I can.

I have my own personal day to day on the field experiences and would trust that better than anyone's imaginative musings. I have enough medical journals I have read and what you posted falls into the category of medical imagination . You see sir the body and every little part of it has been set to function in a specific way and when something breaks the norm which isn't medically possible nor medically understandable it falls into medical mystery and ones imaginative writing or assumptions cannot be taken as an authority and neither can it be applied on the field as a medical procedure.