₦airaland Forum

Roland17:
Don’t intentionally choose to misconstrue positions. No one has asked for Arteta to rely on academy products.

I will reiterate that I will entertain an argument that he is refusing to develop and integrate any because he wants to win (which is ridiculous to be honest) but don’t tell me we don’t have prospects.

He is approaching his 5th year and we can not point to one player he has developed and integrated into the first team. I mean a conscious effort to develop the prospect like his predecessors did and other coaches in the EPL are doing. A coach that is entering his 5th year isn’t a rookie anymore.

I am not arguing in favour of Arteta (I'd love to see academy players making it). All I am saying is that we complain a lot.

As for developing players, I can argue that Saka and Martinelli developed under Arteta. I agree he wasn't the one who gave them their breakthrough but he certainly will take the credit for their development.

Wenger was playing youth and fans complained that he was jeopardizing title chance for training kids. We lost many FA cup and league cup opportunities and they joined rivals to call us trophyless.

How time flies...

mostob:
1. Do you even understand the meaning of interpreting space?

2. Are you really basing your space controller talk on a single match he played donkey years ago?

3. How does being a good dribbler correlate with space controller or whatever you're saying?

1. Why don't you tell me.

2. No. It has always been his way. Fabregas is a passer plus space interpreter. Do you know that he played as a striker for Barcelona? The reason he was played there is because of that aspect of his talent that makes him a space reader.

3. You usually are one or the other. Mertesacker was not fast but he was an excellent game reader. Unlike Kiscielny who was fast. Wenger combined both. So a good coach looks for both space readers, dribblers, speedsters and passers and combine them in his team. Every player is usually at least one of the four. Some players even evolve during the later end of their careers. A good example is Jay Jay, who was a dribbler but later became a passer (at Bolton) and only dribbled to entertain fans when game was over.

Jodera:
Oga, he invented the word. Stop clutching at straws

Nobody was a Raumdeuter before him. And if you check it, there was no role like that before him. Stop forcing something just to find leeway for Havertz. No be by force na!!


Space interpreter is different from your so called space controller. Last season I always commend our players(especially Odegaard) for his half-space understanding and interpretation. Xhaka too. Nobody calls them Raumde.uters.

You are right. He invented the word and not the skill. Guys have been interpreting space since the time of Pele

mostob:
Oga.... you're the one that should watch clips. How dare you call Fabregas a space controller or whatever? The same Fabregas o. You didn't even mention Ramsey or Rosicky to soften the 'capping'. Maybe you should sort opinion outside and see who need to watch clips.

If Fabregas a dribbler? Off course not. He is more like a passer but he is also good in interpreting spaces when not with the ball. Go and watch Arsenal Vs Barcelona champions league when we beat them 2-1 at Emirates

mostob:
Those players you mentioned, you classified them as space controller. Now, you're saying Fabregas is midfield controller. Isn't that two different things? You still need to come and explain both terms to me.

That side, Fabregas doesn't and never deal with spaces. He is a proper midfielder. Like, man will receive the ball and dictate tempo. He is not the type to be making off the ball runs.

If you didn't watch clips I can't help you because no matter what I say you won't understand.

Jodera:
This is hardly surprising when you realise that its origins start with a current player — the aforementioned Thomas Müller, who invented the term himself.



He's usually defined as being in the Number 10 slot behind the striker, in a 4-2-3-1 shape...

And lastly, Raum.deuter are known as Space interpretators or investigators and not "space controllers" as you make us to believe

We can see that it's Muller who invented it, yet Spy360 you say examples are Old men crespo, old men Inzaghi and old men Trezeguet.

Lastly the other examples given are Callejon and Delle Alli. These are players who played predominantly as SS during their prime in Napoli and Tottenham respectively.

We don't use 4231 so any Rau.mdeuter for Havertz is totally wrong cos we don't use one

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://jobsinfootball.com/blog/raumdeuter-role-explained/&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwiy5OPsstqDAxWbU0EAHV7ZC1wQFnoECAMQAg&usg=AOvVaw2L26_PMniWQLyEtZm_pwfB

Here's the link Spy in case you're interested.
Not the one you're describing me Muller saying it's Raumdeuter definition.

Muller invented the word not necessarily the skill. Japa didn't start in 2021, even though the word was invented then to mean leaving the country. Tiki taka didn't start with Pep even though he made it popular.

Muller is an AM or SS. He used the word raumdeuter to explain his role in the team because people were wondering why he was roaming the pitch just as you are wondering why Kai is roaming the pitch.

Whether you want to call it interpreter or not, the idea is to control space.

mostob:
Remove Fabregas here abeg. I'm not disputing your points but Fabregas was more than what you're saying here.

I watched Fabregas on his debut, I watched him in the CL game against Juventus Vs Vieira and I watched him in the CL finals against Barcelona. What we all said then was that he is a one touch midfield controller. He is a great passer no doubt but he could read and control spaces. Please before you reply go and watch these matches I mentioned.

mostob:
If Zinny inverts, it is 3-2-5. Both 8s stays higher.

If Zinny doesn't invert, it is 4-2-4. Ode drops to partner Rice.

Equally makes sense.

OasisX:


.....why Marketers again? They will be buying from Dangote at subsidized rate nah.

Dangote alone cannot power the whole country na. Unless PH and other refineries also becomes active.

OasisX:


.....honestly that's my hope with the sad news too. They start with Diesel and jet fuel. Hope its gonna bring down Diesel price to like ₦300 per litre. This will help manufacturing firms to increase their productivities and reduce their prices.

It will also help to reduce food inflation as well, cos cheap transportation of foodstuff means cheap price at marketplaces.

Domestic flight may reduce their fares too, if jet fuel price crashes.

If diesel drops to N300, that would be a good one for Tinubu era. It's just that he is illegitimate that's the problem. But it will be good if it happens. Not like he is responsible for it. But it will be good.

OasisX:


....Subsidy will return once Dangote Refinery begins production of pms. It'll be easier to track and maintain Subsidy with Dangote coz FG will be paying directly to him.

If subsidy returns will it be only Dangote that will collect? Won't other marketers collect too?

Jodera:
Like I said, Raumdeuters are mostly SS and not Lam/LCM so that even tells you that your definitions are way off to what Havertz is doing.

It's like you calling ball playing CBs and you start calling Haaland and mbappe.

Who does that?

What you're saying is similar to saying that dribblers are mostly midfielders or sweepers are only defenders.

Today goalkeepers have been sweepers, dribblers have been defenders so why can space readers be midfielders.

For your information, Muller was a 10. A SS is basically an advanced midfielder. Kai can be a SS in the LAM position so what's your problem?

Now look at the pix below that describes Thomas Muller, change the name to Kai Havertz and see if the description also fits.

Jodera:
The only Raum.deuter in that list is Muller.
An Raum.deuters are mostly SS.

This one I dey see strikers and correct Midfielders especially Fabregas defeats your definition.

where you see your this space controllers examples from? I beg I need evidence

At least you found one evidence yourself, meaning that it wasn't my idea in the first place. All you now need to do is to use the evidence and apply it to other players.

Jodera:
If you feel he'll click in that Lam position, why are you saying Kai is the best we got?

Shebi na more than one matches Kai played to become your best bet as Lam. Make Trossard play him own more than one match too

Kai is the best option for now. That's because compared to others that have been used there, he completes the team more. Though personally, I prefer a right footed player in that role and ESR looks good for me. I even prefer him there to Rice. Hence I will support any change that will include him and hope his recurring injuries don't spoil things all over again.

Jodera:
Actually Midfield controllers are not difficult to see.

I don't know if you invented the word Space controllers cos I've never heard of anything like that in football.

I just skimmed through your other posts and I saw space controllers and I'm just amused.

Anything sha for Havertz. Effects of Massive Pr and JuJu

Lol.

I didn't say midfield controllers, I said space controller or space reader. Google raumdeuters in football for further explanations. It's not my term.

afrodoc2:
There is definitely a tactical flaw. The team has not been found out though. The problem is putting a square peg like Havertz in a round hole. That is the tactical flaw.

No Kai is not the flaw in the tactics. The flaw is that the wingers were found out. Last season teams were easily exposed to one on one situations with our wingers and both of them shined off it. This season they are double marked and because there is no plan B the whole set up now look cagey.

Xhaka could not have had a solution, except that he was a good crosser (unlike Kai), so when the LW is marked out he simply receives the ball and crosses for a header. Arsenal scored the most headers last season. But that wasn't the pattern.

An option could be to play either Trossard or ESR who could take up a wide position on the left and provide a passing option or a decoy for Martinelli. Same way Odegaard does for Saka. But when it comes to the other aspect they don't perform well compared to Kai. Basically the tactics does not work any more and requires change or adjustments.

afrodoc2:
You named 4 forwards and 2 midfielders.

Out of the 2 midfielders you mentioned which of them averaged 22 passes per game because he was “controlling space”?


So you can’t name another space controller midfielder currently playing football in the whole world?

Don’t restrict yourself to only premier league o. Even if it is local league we fit manage am like that.

Me , Dele Alli, Youri Tielemans

That's why I said they are hard to find.

mostob:
Nice point bro.
For he bolded, Ode actually plays deeper than Kai. And Xhaka in his last season was more advanced.

Odegaard plays deeper when Zinny is not inverting. That is in a flat 4-3-3. When Zinny is inverting it's a 3-4-3 so that both Odegaard and Kai are in advanced positions.

As for Xhaka, you are correct.

afrodoc2:
Then your manager has made a critical error and the repercussions are what you are experiencing.

I don’t think a disappearing act like Havertz can play in the same midfield with Odegaard. It will lead to loss of control and that is what is happening now.

You can play one or the other with 2 proper midfielders who are not interested in controlling space. Whatever that means.

There is a tactical flaw this season following the absence of Xhaka and especially Partey which meant less control in midfield. This tactics worked last season but it seems the team have been found out. Hence my call for a tactical change for the rest of the season. I believe the Dubai camp was to correct the tactical mistake. Who knows Kai may come back and overtake KDB in goals and assists in PL history.

afrodoc2:
Space wetin?

Can you name other space controllers in midfield that you know?

An easy way to identify them is that they are one touch ballers in contrast to ball carriers. Lampard, Fabregas, Muller, Nzaghi, Crespo, Trezeguet etc. These days they are hard to find among popular players

afrodoc2:
For No 1: Explain how the guy that Kai replaced averaged 42 passes per game while the partner for both of them Ødegaard averages 50 passes per game while Kai averages 22 passes per game.

For No 2: You keep making the wrong comparisons. Zidane never played as deep as that in midfield. Kai does not have the skillset to play in the position he is currently playing in.

The team has to have balance. You can’t just put goal scorers or players with attacking skill in every position. A team of 11 Messis will lose to Brentford.

P.S Your definition of afterthought is strange. Before the season started i said a fit ESR would be a better fit than Havertz. So how can it be afterthought if I said it BEFORE it happened?

Let me start with the bolded. As much as I support the claim, it is still yet to happen. So how does that affect Kai's position?

For No 1, Kai is a space controller. He is not a ball juggler, he is not a pass master. He is a space controller. We can decide to play a dribbler there instead of a passer. Xhaka was more of a passer. A dribbler will equally make less passes. It all depends on what the manager wants. The most important thing is the overall output. Kai has 4 league goals already. In comparison Xhaka scored 7 in his best season for us. In that season we scored more goals in a season in our PL history.

No 2, is largely subjective opinion and you are fully entitled to it. But same does Arteta, myself and every other coach that manages Kai.

Jodera:
How many times have Trossard played there this season?
Just once aganst West Ham but you think that's enough.

Meanwhile when Havertz started there beginning of season and was dropping stinkers you were here telling us how he needs more games to click and acclamatize.

You've forgotten so soon that Trossard won our preseason best player and what position did he played while winning that? LAM

At least, the preseason performance will show you that if given more game time there he'll surely deliver but of course you won't know.

Havertz will Never be missed in this team!!

E just dey pain me say person laidat no dey go injury or collect straight red card

I am also convinced that given time Trossard will click in that LAM position. I have also held the opinion that our best bet there is even ESR. I have so much conviction that he will overtake everybody in that position if his injuries allow him.

But for now it's all about Kai.

This is what you should get.

Jodera:
Berbatov said so. I'm sure even late Beckenbauer, Kahn and so many other good to great players especially ex German players and pundits said so too which I why I said the guy PR or JuJu must be so so strong and massive. I mean, the only evidence you think/feel the guy is good is because pundits/ex players said so

We wey don watch am for more than 3 years now and we know say there's nothing like unique talent in this guy not to talk of the "generational talent" he's been attributed with.

His talent is always on pundits mouth, ex players mouth, blogs/site but Never on the pitch!!

This guy Jazz/Grace and PR or whatever is so massive that it needs to be taught in school as a course on its own.

No everyone will have tactical eyes.

The managers, players and ex-players and national team coaches and myself know what we see.

Kai is a space controller and that skill set is difficult to see. The same way a dribbler is difficult to see.

toluxe0075:
When will he click? When will he unleash the so called potential? After 10 seasons?

The same Kai we all watched at Chelsea for 3 season whose only highlight was his Champion league goal in the final. Here we are hoping he will click for us while serious title contenders like Liverpool and Man city have solid players in all departments with alternatives if anyone messes up.

We hope to win a title, yet Arteta is busy shoving “when he clicks” down our throat week in week out when we know the team is going against two monster teams (at least for now) for the EPL title.

We wouldn’t even be having Havertz talk if the coach had used his brain to buy a performing player like he did with Rice.

Everyday, Havertz this, Havertz that. Smith Rowe or even Zichenko will give more while playing his position if given the same opportunity.

Kai signed a 4year contract and he is barely into half a year with us. And he hasn't done badly compared to Vieira and Nelson.

If Partey was fit, Kai would have been coming from bench because Rice will play that position. But as it stands now he isn't doing bad for me. He is better than all the other options we have including Trossard who is more suited to Martinelli role.
If Partey was av

afrodoc2:
1) You are comparing apples and oranges. Lampard usually played with 2 more defensive minded midfielders in order to make those runs, whether it was Mendes and Makelele or Essien and Makelele. That was when he played his best. Havertz can't play the same when his partners are Odegaard and Rice. It leaves an imbalance and lack of control in your midfield.

Lampard essentially played as the most advanced midfielder (the 10) in those successful Chelsea sides. That is the role Odegaard plays in your team albeit a bit skewed to the right. Your team required a deeper lying player to replace Xhaka not a German McTominay/VDB with excellent PR.

2) So, because the managers decided to sign them they can't be wrong? I better not find any evidence of you criticizing a manager on this site then, since a manager making a decision automatically makes it right. Also, it is not an afterthought if people predicted that it would not work out before it happened. That is the very opposite of afterthought.

Your analysis is almost correct but you got no 1 wrong may be it because you are not an Arsenal fan as we know that on that left wing the LB inverts into midfield creating a double pivot with Rice which pushes the Kai into advanced positions similar to Odegaard on the right. Kai has scored 5 goals this season. In comparison the highest goal scorer has 9. Gabriel Jesus and Odegaard have 7 each.

As per no 2, I am sure you wouldn't be having this conversation if Kai turns to prime Zinidine Zidane. Therefore it's all afterthought.

afrodoc2:
Neither Ozil or Berbatov played in the deep role he is being asked to play. His skillset of disappearing for large chunks of the game or making off the ball runs and then appearing in the box to score crucial goals is not what you need in that CM position.

It is not even about his quality but about his fit for the team. And this is not hindsight cos I knew both he and Mount were the wrong fit for the clubs that bought them right from when they were bought.

I don’t want to delve into your Ozil comparison too much but if Havertz stole the eyes of everybody on this thread and wore telescope and binoculars for all the eyes he still won’t have half the vision of Ozil.

P. S I was a Havertz fan when he was in Germany.

Bold 1: Such qualities can still be effective. Lampard was known to make off the ball movements into the box to score several goals to devastating effect.

Bold 2: is a subjective opinion. The managers that signed them knew what they wanted from them. That it is not appreciated is a different thing and an afterthought.

Jodera:
Trossard never die.
We knew what he can do at LCM in preseason and if given some run of games, he'll excel there cos he's shown he got it. Presently we've ESR too who's back.

Na only you dey feel say no we no get people when actually with or without his signing we for still go far.

We have tried Trossard there and seen his ability. He is not better than Kai at all in that LAM position.

The closest I can vouch for is ESR who himself is basically untried. Even though I have preference for him.

Until Partey comes back and Rice plays that role as a CM, the best we have there is Kai Havertz

Jodera:
Na only for blogs and football sites him deh possess all these techniques right from when him dey Chelsea. Everywhere else apart from the most important place — the pitch!!

This guy PR must be studied!!

Berbatov himself said Kai is the closest to him in terms of skill and techniques. So you doubting my point is the one who needs to get informed. When people make statements ask for evidence before dismissing them.

Wen familiarity sets in, those things won't be of interest any more. Itvnow depends on both couples to discover how to spice up their marriage by consciously creating special fun moments to indulge eachother. For example, you can take your wife to a beach and kiss there. Or grab your husband to the backyard and kiss there.

Jodera:
Options dey..
If Kai gets injured, he won't be missed. That's to tell you options dey

Moreover, he shouldn't have been here in the first place

The bolded may be a genuine argument. But the first paragraph no get evidence. The question is who?

afrodoc2:
Your Kai love is commendable, but it was the wrong move. You needed to sign a mobile CENTRAL MIDFIELDER with decent technique and passing not a hyena.

You have the benefit of hindsight.

Even at that, Kai still possesses the technique and guile of an Ozilesque/Berbatovic midfielder that if he clicks would be of devastating effect. Right now it's not so, but he has the potentials.