pilgrim.1:

By that, you assume that the Christian faith is allergic to education, enlightenment, care and concern for our fellow man?

No I don't assume christian or any other faith is allergic to education and enlightenment, I just wonder why it's necessary to attach the faith in incredible stories to this cause. Can human beings not be good or do good without the commitment to religion? Are non-religious people necessarily evil?

How would using education and enlightenment to make life better for ourselves tantamount to not "enduring strong doctrine"? Sorry but I don't quite catch your drift.

Why do many people still insist on saying that the Bible or Koran or whatever other religious book is the undiluted word of God? A cursory look at the Bible for instance shows it’s the words of primitive people trying to understand God with the limited knowledge they had. Is it impossible for people in this age to form their own “religion” based on our understanding of the world now and present day knowledge of life. Sort of like an evolution of religion. It’s amazing the convoluted explanations people come up with to explain the stories in the Bible when it’s very clear that the stories simply have no backing in modern days. It’s the equivalent of modern day Nigerians believing in “traditional” medicine to solve our problems. If we don’t treat problems with this traditional means why do we think a 2000 year old religion would work well today? Why can’t we build a system that works on education, enlightenment, care and concern for our fellow man? How long do we have to continue with this charade of belief in backward religions even when at peril to our livelihood and development?

~Lady~:

If you are referring to the time of the earth, that is not a fact in the Bible. Please stop reading into the Bible what is not there.
The Bible does not mention any fact of when the earth was formed, neither does it mention any fact of the Noah's flood and the time in which it happened.
I repeat please stop reading into the Bible what is not there.

If you do not understand it, then accept that you do not understand it and leave those of us who do alone. Thanks.
If you do not understand the context in which it was written and the culture for which it was written, and the people it was written to, then simply say so rather than trying to insert your own personal understanding or "facts" into it.

Do not lay claim to what is untrue, and stop defining the Bible by your own facts. Thank you.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. I'm not reading anything into the Bible that is not literally there. The post is titled "Church of England To Apologize For Rejecting Charles Darwin's Theory". This can only imply that the Church of England felt they had taken an erroneous stance on the issue of evolution. That is what is being talked about specifically. I now said that there is a likelihood of other issues or Biblical stands taken by the Church to become topics of discourse later on.

Now the comments you made actually sound like "don't say anything about the Bible because you(I) don't have the spiritual knowledge to understand it". That seems like a very slippery slide for the Christian faith 'cos where do you stop with this need for in depth knowledge. Do I need it to understand the story of creation, Noah's ark, Moses and the ten commandments, the birth of Jesus, the crucifixion of Jesus etc? I wonder if you get my point? If you claim an unbeliever cannot understand the Bible then you then have no need to explain the Bible to anyone you consider faithless and everything in the Bible must be 100% correct, as long as you have faith.

Lastly I must mention that I did grow up in a very "spiritual" family and for many years I actually fought to believe the Bible must be infallible. It just got to the point for me where no amount of mental contorting seemed to make it make much sense. I'm sorry but I don't believe the Bible stories should be so hard to relate with scientific facts. Afterall "God" created everything we use science to study.

pilgrim.1:

Darwin's evolution theory is many times mistaken as a synonym for atheism. The point to note is that atheistic arguments have been built around that theory to confuse the whole issue and make it support ideas that were not intended by that theory. This is why even atheists who try to interprete Darwinian evolution theory are not always in concensus (a case in point: late Stephen J. Gould and Richard Dawkins). As the gist of Darwin's ideas are often not quite understood by many, it is often the case that a few people mistake "evolution" for atheism. They are not the same, just as we know that atheism is not science.

Another problem resulting from such arguments is the idea that theism rests on blind faith. Nothing could be further from the truth. We note that theism is not science as well, but rather a worldview that tries to investigate, understand and interprete experiences in our world which most scientific models of enquiry are unable to decipher.

"Science" if properly understood should be appreciated for what it is and not stretched to be a tool for elasticised debates between worldviews such as theism and atheism.

Interesting post pilgrim.1, I must ask a question or two though. If scientific knowledge reveals that a widely accepted Biblical "fact" is wrong how ready is the Church to accept that it was wrong. Issues like Darwin's evolutionary theory are not the first and will not be the last to be raised about Biblical ideas and theories. Furthermore in accepting the views of people like Darwin is the Church ready to admit that the stories in the Bible are wrong or do they simply put it down to interpretation of the relevant verses. Would love to hear your views on this issues.

Chrisbenogor:

@pilgrim
Lol ok oh, I think I know where we differ, I think you are trying to say that
"God is not to be held liable for man's actions" am I right? While for me I am saying a designer has to take some responsiblity for the actions of his creation.
I will try one last attempt to explain my position,
I have designed so many computer algorithms and there are statements known as decision statements where the program has to choose which way to go depending on circumstances that are either random or depend on other circumstances. I like to look at man like that, everyday we are faced with the choices and the ability to choose whether good or bad is already coded in us and that is the relationship with the creator.
I also got a sense that you are trying to say man was perfect before the fall am I right?

I think the analogy about the robot actually stands because the robot has the freewill to turn right or left. It just happens that turning left is a bad decision. The question is if I know turning left is bad why do I make the robot capable of turning left? Okay so you say it's because I want my robot to have freewill. However being all knowing I already know my creation will abuse this freewill and do bad a lot of the time. So it seems like I actually want my creation to do bad, at least sometimes. Am I right or is this just faulty logic?

reindeer:

So i ask, is he really all knowing?will you as a human who isnt all knowing go ahead with creation when you know how they'll end up?
im still bothered, i need real answers.
thanks

I think it probably makes sense to accept the fact that there are a lot of things that we as human beings are not able to comprehend or simply lack the knowledge to fully understand. Literal interpretation of the Bible is a lost cause, it's quite obvious the Bible is simply mans attempt to understand or create a concept of God. It's easy to see the changes in the Biblical God concept as people became more civilised from a mean, vengeful God to a more humane and caring God in the New Testament. I believe learning how to treat each other better and how to alleviate ills in the society is a much more useful mission than trying to decipher the incredible stories in the Bible.

Udyro:

if u know why human cells deteriorate and start decaying after 70 - 80 years and eventually stop functioning, showing the person is dead, u wont doubt the existence of the God of the Bible.

your quote is a waste of page, try someting else.

Udyro, Udyro what exactly does this post mean? Yes we'll all live for a while and then die, how in anyway does this fact prove the existence of the Biblical God? Instead of taking such a combative stance why not just try to read the different posts and links under this topic and then make your own informed decisions. Some of the posts are quite long but I'm sure you can cover them over time.

Udyro:

let me make your corrections clear here, the edition i mean is by way of modification, upgrading, adding, etc.

the Bible is only being 'translated' as u said into many languages of the world, more than any other books.
its contents still remain the same.

Are you sure about this? Why don't you try googling "Bible History" or "Bible modifications" for instance. You should come up with quite a bit of reading material.

Udyro:

Tasma, the so called contracdictions quoted above are not contracdictions at all but blasphemous. its like one saying
that 'Hanah in the bible was a barren woman, how come that when she prayed to God that she become pregnant. and they concluded that God must have pregnated her. meaning God marry just like humans', they even said He marries about three women - sarah, Hanah and Mary the mother of Jesus.
now, can u call this contradiction or blasphemy against the Holy God?

judge for yourself whether it is really contradication or gudgible thoughts from non-christians.

@ Udyro.
I must simply conclude that you didn't even bother to read the list of contradictions in the link http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html. Why because the contradictions are not summations from atheists interpretations of biblical verses but actual and clear differences from verse to verse.

JeSoul:

Udyro,
  let me save you some trouble. 99% of the atheists on Nairaland are irrational, dishonest and have an unhealthy obession against God and a personal agenda to discredit the bible - don't waste your time trying to "discuss" with them.

Don't know about the above comment but I definitely am not out to make you an unbeliever in God. I just want to encourage you to think critically about all things and simply not just accept things on face value. I'm sure this journey of knowledge and enlightenment will bring you closer to "God" than you ever thought.

Udyro:

@Femi 1
Can u provide one Bible portioni that u feel, contradict each other?
anywhere, thanx 4 contributing. but i'm waiting for your answers anytime.

Udyro:

It is only non-christian that will deem it fit to see contradictions in the Bible. this thread was meant for christians who depends on their 'pastor's sayings' and not on 'what God's Word (the Bible) really says.

Moreover, if any non-christians wnt to use this avenue to insult God Almighty, he/she shld not forget that God is Spirit. and that it is better for u to talk down on your fellow humans, as one will be forgiven than on the Creator of the Universe, because there is no forgiveness. moreso, vengeance is mine say the the Lord God.

This is probably the most comical trail of posts i've read in a while. First you ask if any contradictions in the bible can be posted, when you then get a whole list of contradictions you conclude that the persons seeing this contradictions can only be blasphemous non Christians. Why bother to ask this questions if you already have a preconceived unshakable beliefs?

dudu-bobo:

You don't always need to pray to see results. The bible makes it clear that whatever a man is in the habit of sowing is what he'll be in the habit of reaping. If you do the right things for development, you'll reap development.

The fact that your praying doesn't stop you doing the right things is not to say that the person who wants to pray the right way and do the right things should not pray. What exactly is your point? Some people go to school and fail, does that mean no one should go to school?

I'm certainly not advocating that people shouldn't pray at all. I'm sure prayer has it's soothing and spiritual role in the lives of many people. What I'm saying is that as far national growth is concerned prayer shouldn't be the first port of call. Maybe we should concentrate on fixing the physical problems like light, water, shelter etc first and worry about spiritual matters later.

dudu-bobo:

this is a rather silly way of looking at things.

Nigerians are praying with their lips but it seems our hearts are far from God; this is why it looks like prayers don't work in Nigeria. The Nigerian man who prays and sweats in church on sunday is in the office collecting egunje the next day. The Nigerian who prays like heaven is falling on Sunday in Church will be breaking traffic rules on his way home from church. The Nigerian who prays very hard on sunday will be seen oppressing his neighbours throughout the week.

If I pray from now till kingdon come for something and I keep doing things that will prevent that thing to come, why should I expect to recieve it?

Please let's reason a little

So how about if i don't pray and just do things that will aid my development? Obviously my praying doesn't stop me from acting in criminal ways so why bother?

@ Africankel

I don't think anyone is talking about corruption being a government problem in Nigeria. The issue is the fact that in Nigeria the high level of "spirituality", church and mosque attendance, numerous night vigils seems to have done nothing to improve the quality of life in the country. In fact paradoxically the country is still one of the highest ranked worldwide in terms of corruption! How do you explain this? This is why I said I would even prefer a country full of right thinking, conscientious atheists to this disgrace of a system we run.

@ madamkoko

A little story you might enjoy. The other day i had to visit our "friendly" neighbourhood police to "bail" out a neighbor that had been arrested for
"wandering" outside his house. Sorry about the repeated use of the quote marks " ", just helps convey the message of the story. At the police station I had to wait for over an hour because the DPO was holding a morning prayer session with everybody in the station for over an hour! Finally I get to see the DPO and he warns me about the threat of miscreants in the neighbourhood skillfully avoiding the fact that the neighbour had offered to pick his bank ID card from his flat when he was being arrested.

The neighbour was finally released after i contributed "willingly" towards breakfast money for the "boys".

I don't even know where to begin, first is the fact that about two hours of tax payers money was spent by our boys in black in a prayer session while at work! Secondly the fact that this same people would be on the street 10 mins later demanding 200 bucks from any road user seems not to be a problem with our "holy ghost filled" cops.

This story is not to talk about corruption in the police force, the corruption exists in almost every institution in Nigeria. The point is how we so
efficiently separate our spiritual activities from our day to day life. Thousands are in Church speaking in tongues on Sunday,and back at work pocketing their own share of misappropriated funds on Monday. Shameful!

Here's an idea, why don't we Nigerians just try doing the right thing because it is right and not because we are "religious or spiritual" people. Hell, an atheist civil servant in the US or UK probably behaves ten times better than our church or mosque going civil servants here. So what exactly is the advantage of our high level of "spirituality". I for one would rather be a country full of decent atheists than one full of so called religious citizens.

Let's see how it goes, we're all awake to watch this.

Everything we are talking about here has to do with what is deemed right or wrong. How does society decide certain behaviour is right or wrong? First off, lets talk about what is “natural”. Watch the action of innocent little kids, you notice if they want something they want to take it immediately regardless of if it belongs to another person or not. They are very self involved, human beings naturally are. So as parents we teach our kids social values by correcting such self involved behaviour. Society has seen that if everyone cares only for themselves we can’t live together peacefully. Another example, one may argue that man is naturally polygamous; left alone most men will seek multiple partners. Society puts restraints on this to encourage peace in marital homes. This even changes from society to society. Some societies allow multiple wives while others insist on monogamy. Monogamy that is widely practiced in Nigeria today is a western culture, it’s not African but we have adopted it all the same. I don’t see anyone complaining about that Western culture.

So basically societies base their laws on empirical knowledge of what seems to work for them, what makes survival of the community as a whole conducive. These laws obviously will differ in cultures in different parts of the world.

The reason why homosexuality is largely frowned upon in many societies is because it does not aid procreation. It’s basically as simple as that. Now procreation is not a major impediment to the survival of most developed nations, in fact overpopulation is a problem in many countries. Thus the purpose of relationships has changed largely from procreation to companionship and happiness. Consequently there may be adults that prefer to be in same sex relationships because they find such relationships more fulfilling. I don’t think those people should be faulted.

Now the larger issue here that I think is the very process of deciding what is right or wrong in Nigeria. We need to come to the point where we make such decisions with an awareness of what exactly we are doing. It makes little sense to base our laws and values fully on Biblical tenets because such tenets applied better to the ancient Jews than the modern day Nigerian. There are certainly many laws in the old testaments – for instance laws concerning treatment of slaves and women – that Jews in the New Testament times would not have followed. A society needs to base its values and morals with knowledge and thought instead of just unconsciously basing such values on vague mores we have been indoctrinated with from birth.

Lastly it’s a big myth that there were never homosexuals in Nigeria, there have always been persons that are happier with same sex relationships. The prevailing culture in Nigeria has simply not allowed them to express themselves, and like I said before the fact that they were not sleeping with same sex partners does not change the fact that they are homosexuals all the same.

Just my thoughts again, cheers.

What makes a consensual relationship between two adults of the same sex a crime like paedophilia, murder, thievery etc? Paedophilia is crime because it involves intercourse with underage persons i.e. one of the persons involved in the relationship can’t be deemed capable of making mature decisions. True a person might have a “natural” tendency towards antisocial activities like violence, child abuse for instance. Thus we have laws to curb people from such activities with penalties of imprisonment and other sorts of punishment. The key word here is antisocial activity. Again I repeat how does a consensual relationship between two adults of the same sex translate to antisocial behaviour? Would it be better if a homosexual pretends to be straight and lives an unfulfilling life with a heterosexual partner? Also again why does the image of homosexuality seem to be sexual intercourse between a man and an underage boy, is it not homosexuality if two females are in a relationship or funnier still if you have same sex relationships with no sexual intercourse involved?

Truely one may argue that homosexuality is not a commonplace as heterosexuality but if the practice is not detrimental to society what's the point in dragging it down.

Brash!:

I tire for all this idiots MUNGOS supporting gay people and claiming they were born like that!_{God knows best}

Mr. Brash you need to remember that this is a public forum and everyone is entitled to their opinions. If you can't be civil in your replies you may simply choose not to comment at all. It's quite ironical that you manage to use the words idiots, Mungos and God in the same sentence.

Assuming homosexuals choose to be homosexual one may have cause to question the "naturalness" of their way of life. However most are naturally attracted to the same sex and can argue that God made them that way. Why then would other "straight" people feel cause to question them. Also the fact that a man or woman may not have sex with members of the same sex does not make them straight. There are probably some amongst the people posting vitriolic replies here that may have closet feelings for the same sex and hide the feelings due to the inappropriateness of the life style in Nigeria. Lastly the comment about young boys is funny because it must assume homosexuality = male paedophilia. I wonder how that came about.

"buttfuckers?" tut tut (shakes head in disbelief)

Interesting discourse as usual. I've got to ask the question though that what possible good can come from a child of God dying mangled in a car accident, plane crash, during child birth or being left bloated and pecked by vultures after a tsunami. Sorry for being so graphic, but how can any of this happenings - which may occur to a godly or spiritual person - be part of God's grand plan? If we accept the obvious that this catastrophes may happen to anyone Godly or not that's understandable. But part of God's divine plan!? Come off it.

Pastor AIO:

The point that I am trying to make is that systems and the laws that define them arise naturally out of the evolutionary flow of society. So while Laws are important, they are not absolute.

Right so the laws in the Bible are modified due to the evolutionary flow of society. So is it then a big leap to assume that the laws were chosen due to the prevailing societal norms at that time, and consequently that the Bible itself was the attempt of primitive men to understand God and explain nature and natural occurrences. If the Bible is studied that way it makes good sense especially if you combine that study with the study of ancient Jewish history. Why do modern day Christians still insist on finding convoluted arguments to make the Biblical stories seem directly applicable now?

Interesting article, the question though is that does religion encourage common sense thinking or rationalism. The basic tenets of most religions emphasize faith, which is belief in things not seen, belief in things that may not make common sense. Can you see the problem here? Also does the writer imply that without religion it is impossible for mankind to have basic morals and show love and care for each other? Aren't this goals possible without the fear of being cast into hell for not having this characteristics?

huxley:


Why are you getting confused? I just gave you some of Susscorn's (Respect) attributes. Here they are again:
Attributes of Sussicorn (Respect) so far;

1) Half immaterial, half material
2) Born by his father after 3 years manancy (When a man is carrying a baby, a very very rare condition).
3) Half male and half female


What is confusing about this? It seems all clear and believable to me.

All perfectly believable Huxley! I wonder if the great Sussicorn will forgive me for all my sins. I must really repent of my ways.

Interesting question, I know very little about African religions before Christianity. This just shows how good the task of erasing our indigenous culture has been done.

Just one comment, the farmer's justification or evidence was in fact false i.e. he thought he had seen the cow whereas he had simply seen a piece of paper. Hence his subjective conclusion at the safety of the cow may have actually been wrong.

Well said, madamkoko. I think a lot of Nigerian Christians are quite lazy intellectually. Many know little of clearly contradictory verses in the Bible and many certainly have not bothered to read about the origin of the modern day bible versions. It's amazing though when the same people claim the Bible is infallible without proper knowledge of it. It seems people are simply happy to have pastors read the psychologically uplifting verses of prosperity and good health etc. Hence the Bible becomes nothing more than a feel good balm.

~Lady~:

I thank you for posting this. Why? because you ahve spoken the truth and like I pointed out earlier, people have misinterpreted the word of God to the detriment of those they claim to want to help.

On the issue of Christianity, Christians are called to do good. Doing good includes teaching the youth positive things. Helping build houses for the less fortunate, donating what you can it doesn't have to be money to charity or non profit organisations. DOing more on good quality, affordable schools as you put it.

Basically loving God and your neighbour and yourself.

I hope this helps

Well in some way it does. From what you have said you are coming to the point I'm making. You have given some thought to the purpose of religion and have consciously tried live the way you think Christ would want you to. That is the level I think many Nigerian christians should try to attain. Many are still locked up in attaining higher levels of spirituality, learning deeper "truths" about the Bible etc. In truth the message stares them in the face all the time, simply love your neighbour as yourself. It makes sense to do this and I wonder why it takes the fear of burning eternally in a lake of fire to get people to live like this. I'm not worried about the message it's the means of passing the message that I worry about. Passing on the message of love though some religions only leaves room for manipulation and exploitation of people because it does not encourage free thought and relies mainly on the fear of punishment in the afterlife. Few parents nowadays will teach their kids to behave properly by threatening severe torture so why do we encourage the same in millions of masses?

~Lady~:

I beg to differ. I am very spiritual and I don't make pronouncements like things are this way because it says so in the Bible, wihtout much analysis. A friend of mine and also several of my professors in the area of chemistry, bilogy, biochemistry, and the likes will be very offended by this yor statement.
Things aren't the way they are because it says so in the Bible. The Bible actually conatins things that are true in history.
There are plenty of scinetists you make a lot of analysis and still stand on the Bible. Infact much of their study have led them to believe that the events in the Bible are supported by scientific facts.

A friend of mine will go crazy to explain it to you. I have to invite him to this forum. He is a Christian and a very strong one too, but also a scientist.

By the way who told you that God doesn't encourage Christians to be knowledgeable? We are told to ask for wisdom, knowledge, and understanding. Your knowledge may also be skewed and flat out wrong. Did you ever think of that? WHo said that scientists hold the truth to it all? Most of the things found are reliant on the definition from a man, who said that man isn't wrong?

Have you ever heard of human error? I know that you can be incorrect even in the sciences and science does not hold all truth.
If it did, religion would ahve been debunked, but science cannot explain a lot of things and has no proof for a lot of things. It can have a theory but that theory can be wrong, and several have been debunked by other scientists themselves.

Knowledge does not lie in science alone. I didn't need science to tell me that I am a girl and that my hair will grow. I didn't need science to tell me that there's a difference between my physical appearance and my brother's

Thanks for the reply. I however find it hard to accept that conventional science can support many biblical stories. I'm sure this issues have been trashed out time after time in this forum. Maybe on a certain spiritual level one may say humans have limited senses and cognitive powers and cannot understand certain things. Thats another issue entirely. I'm saying however that conventional science cannot back stories like the Adam and Eve stories or Noah's Ark etc. I'm not saying the Bible implicitly says Christians should not seek knowledge but that by insisting that we accept this stories without question, that implies that we must shelve conventional wisdom. You may however insist there can be conventional science backing for Biblical stories, I would be quite impressed to read such scientific theories.

Again enjoying everyones comment on the topic so far.

Pastor AIO:

I didn't think that flat earth was an article of christian belief. I thought that the idea of a global earth was around for ages as well as flat earth. Anyway, there are many different gifts that the spirit can confer. I believe that a person filled with the spirit whose calling it is to investigate geology and astronomy would make great strides and arrive at much knowledge of his chosen subject. Similarly a doctor with spiritual guidance will be a greater doctor.

That's a rather liberal view you are taking on things. In truth "spiritual" persons tend to work a lot with faith and belief. They tend to make pronouncements like things are this way because it says so in the Bible, without much critical analysis. If God encouraged Christians to be more knowledgeable perhaps several concepts in the Bible will not be taken as fact. How would this conflict of interest be resolved?

Pastor AIO:

. . . My answer is that people should strife to gain further knowledge about the world in accordance to the promptings and guidance of the spirit. Schools, hospitals and other such ostensibly 'good' things cannot, in my opinion, yield Good fruit if they are not done according to the guidance of the spirit.

Hmmm, don't know about that. Did the spirit guide early Christians in their "knowledge" that the earth was flat or that the sun revolved around the earth?