Didn't say you did KAG. Just that some people might.

Comedy hour.

This sort of argument tends to go round and round in circles. Perhaps some things need to be clarified. From human observation of the universe there may be reason to believe there is a "force" behind the existence of everything we know. Even those that believe in evolution can claim a "designer" that set up the process from the outset. The existence and nature of this "force" is an interesting topic to dwell on.

Several posters here however seem to have ascribed to this force certain preconcieved notions. Which "God" is the poster talking about? If all posters agree that God exists does that mean the Christian, Muslim etc God are one and the same. Even within Christianity peoples perception of God's nature defer ( for example Catholics and Pentecostal churches). So which God exactly are we talking about?

@ ricadelide
Thanks for replying. First the point of my post was not to prove whether there is God or not. I have not actually said at any point in my post that a Creator does not exist. What I believe is that it might be out of our (sorry my   cognitive powers to have a proper perception of God. The existing religious books seem to deal more in a concept of spirituality as they probably should. Hence I can understand the message and lessons in the Bible but I certainly do not take it as a literal book that can be criticised in a scientific manner.

Now what I actually don't agree with some peoples "proof" of God's existence based on their own subjective experience. This is like when people say "I know God exists because I have believed in Christ and read the Bible and I have seen the power of God in my life". My argument is this is a spiritual experience, other religious people of different beliefs may share similar experiences. So you may as far as your life say yes definitely God exists, but that does not make it a universal truth. By that I mean your belief is no proof of the existence of God.

Yes you are right in saying that the God you believe in may exist, but your reasoning may be based on personal experience that could be intepreted differently by someone of a different disposition. So isn't it possible that you see things that way due to factors like upbringing, exposure to certain emotional stimuli, predispostion towards religion. Would love to read your comments again.

I've always found this topic a bit funny and maybe also pointless. First off if you ask a man if he believes in God and he says yes, what does that tell you? It in fact says very little until you know his concept of God. A muslim believes in God and still in not of the same belief as a Christian. A good guess would be that everyone in one way or the other has some concept of God or a creator in his mind. It's natural as human beings to reason that for anything to exist there must be a creator. So again what does the statement "I believe in God" tell us. Absolutely nothing! It simply means our minds have the tendency or need to believe in a creator.

The argument that God must exist because you pray to him and he answers your prayers is equally funny. A Buddhist may also pray to whatever symbol and have his prayers answered. Furthermore the answering of prayers is a matter of perception and is also subjective. The argument that God must exist because the Bible says so is also very strange. Any spiritual book could ask you to worship cows for instance and if you were brought up in that culture you probably would. Before Christianity came to Africa, Africans had a concept of God. Is that concept of God evil, better, worse etc than the Christian God?

I think we should be content to know that we know little about existence and origin. I believe however that over generations we move closer to the truth. Would be nice to read less of the condescending "I know the truth and you know nothing" statements. Cheers.

I think Christian's in this age need to take the time to study and educate ourselves better. Reading many of the posts here it's amazing how many "Christians" simply spew out mindless comments when asked intelligent questions about the Bible. A man could be asking about the validity of the stories in the Bible and your reply would be to quote a verse of the Bible the says the Bible is true. That doesn't make much sense does it? Even when there is concrete proof of myth-like influence on several Biblical stories many refuse to agree. That fact that the Bible is not a scientific textbook does not take away from the central message to man, does not take away from the poetry and magical stories in the Bible. So why do some Christians feel the need to still be "literal" believers in the Bible.

In all fairness that attitude smirks of insecurity and fear. Fear that in admitting that the Bible is better appreciated as mythology with a message, the Christian cause will suffer. How long can the attitude survive? As human beings evolve our understanding of the earth and it's origin slowly get better. There are several things we don't understand and probably would not be understood for many generations. So what sense does it make for ANYONE in this present day and age to claim full understanding of all the mysteries of life and nature. Many modern day Christians criticise Catholics and call them false Christians, don't this very people realise that maybe 100 years from THEY may be the ones being criticised by the then modern age Christians.

Like I said in the title of this topic, please let us try to be more responsible, mature and enlightened in the way we view Christianity. Would love to read your comments.

Definitely religion as we know it will pass away. Everything in human culture is borne out of necessity. When we develop the confidence to admit we are constantly evolving it is the first step. We will realise that our knowledge is limited but growing. It is thus unnecessary to describe things we can't comprehend just as that and not as some metaphysical happening. It only takes a little intelligence to see that over time knowledge has refined religion. Science told us the earth was spherical and that affected religious beliefs, medicine taught us about viruses, bacteria and mental illnesses and those also changed religious beliefs. It might be useful for "hardcore" religious persons to take a step back once in a while and examine their beliefs and how those beliefs stand in present times.

Miracles, simply a matter of perception. Two people can observe the same event, one person sees something a bit unusual the other believes he has seen a "miracle". What could be called a miracle 50 years ago may be normal in the present. As human beings we learn more about the world we live in everyday, our powers of perception increase with each generation. We cannot therefore rush to explain what we do not understand as a miracle.

Perhaps some people need to believe in miracles because it gives them hope. They need to believe that magic can happen because otherwise life looks bleak.

Hi Infidel, the topic you have started is not new, several of the issues have been trashed out before. I do however want to look at the issues from a different point of view, a psychological point. The existence of God is a very murky issue. Which religion in particular are you referring to? Whose perception of God? Even within the same religion different persons may think of God differently, a Catholic may think of God differently from a Redeemed Church member for instance.

This is all besides the point actually, I think more important is why is there the NEED to believe in God. Several parts of the world have large percentages of decent, respectful, "God fearing" people that are not religious in any form. This people are good while not necessarily believing in the existence of God in any way or form. In Nigeria there is a need to believe in God out of a lot of desperation and hardship. It's not a rational, intellectual belief and cannot be defended as such, which is what you are asking for. People have to believe in God to help them get through the day, to give hope that in spite of all the problems, there's happiness at the end of the day.

Thus when people reply your posts with comment like "i'll pray for you" or some random quote from the Bible, it's not because they are trying to put you down, they simply have no answers to your questions.

The topic is one that will mostly end up in circular arguments because most "believers" don't need or have logical proof. More important to them is the sobering, positive effect that belief in God has in their lifes. If my belief in God has stopped me from drinking, smoking, fornicating, given me hope, peace of mind and a good home who cares if the theories don't really stand up to intellectual scrutiny.

Hope you get my point, cheers.

Thanks everyone for the responses. Some were interesting and educative and others, well no comment. First on the areas I've worked in the North, well Kano, Maiduguri, Wudil, Jos, Postikum, Jamaa're, Damaturu, Kaduna for starters. I can appreciate the fact that parts of this towns have people that are educated and strive for education. What I'm talking about is a seemingly prevalent attitude among the people. Maybe I've been working in the wrong parts of town but I have noticed the trends I talked about pretty much everywhere I worked. I'm talking about the kids begging for food and the young men who seem not interested in working.

I must comment that I didn't say at any point in time that the other parts of Nigeria have no problems of their own, I'm talking about the specific problems I have seen in the North. While poverty might be an excuse for deliquency in other parts of the country, what is the excuse in the North? There are schools kids can go to, there is money pumped in to industry in the North. There are many jobs that young people can apply themselves to, why don't Northerners take advantage of these opportunities. Why are there so many "foreigners" doing essential jobs in the North. How many Northerners do you see working as doctors, bankers, teachers, engineers, IT specialists etc in the south. I'm not arguing just for the sake of it, I have had to employ Northerners on sites I work on and I must say I'm often disappointed by their attitude to work.

Again though I must say this topic was opened for educative purposes. I had learnt a lot from the reasonable comments made by some in the forum. Please lets cut out the silly tribalist rubbish from certain posters.

My job tends to take me to the Northern parts of Nigeria quite a bit and the things I observe there have prompted me to throw this challenge to any Northerner in this forum (there are bound to be one or two). I’m sorry to say this but there seems to be abhorrence to hard work in the North. I see several able bodied men that just seem to lull around throughout the day doing exactly God knows what. When we are working on a road site we usually have as many as twenty or more men that just come round, sit down and watch us for hours! Furthermore there are the little boys ages between like 6 to 12, Alemajeres I think they are called. These boys are actually just pushed onto the streets with bowls and survive off the food given to them by others. They hang around food joints and wait for whatever left overs they can get from customers. I mean what the heck is that! What exactly is the message that is supposed to pass on to the kids, that you don’t have to work as long as there is someone richer than you to give you hand outs?

What about education? How many people in the North are actually trying to get a decent education? How many are trying to become doctors, engineers, nurses, bankers, etc. The Northerners seem to look down on western education. That’s very funny considering the fact that the money Nigeria makes from oil is facilitated by the hard work professionals put in on oil rigs and a whole load of other professional staff that support the core oil staff. Where exactly is the North’s contribution to the growth of this nation? Is the North simply consuming the Nations resources with no plans to contribute now or in the future?

Northerners in this forum please look at this topic as an educational one for non-Northerners. Can you please explain to us the plans the North has to participate in the growth of this Nation of ours? I’m sure we will all be very grateful. Cheers.

Very poor situation for several reasons. The contestants are not professional sportsmen, or don't have to be. Having a good "physique" has absolutely nothing to do with the ability to swim properly , in a pool (talk less of a river). Having a good "physique" has nothing to do with being able to mountain climb or any other xtreme sport. The most similar sport to this sort of competition you are talking about would be something like the ironman triathlon. The ironman competition is heavily regulated and probably has some of the best medical and first aid personnel in any sporting event. Ironman athletes are ranked as some the fittest athletes in the world.

Like I said before this just seems to me like poor organisation and preparation. Typical

I have to say I was quite disappointed by the replies to this post. Realise that the guy himself is obviously not overjoyed with his inclination. Why would anyone want a life style that ostracises him from "normal" society, a lifestyle that subjects him to riducule from many including several in this forum. He is not saying he wants to be gay, he is saying that he is gay.

Thats one point, the other is the myth that God has created us all to be either the macho male or lolita female. Anyone talking from this point of view is either very unobservant or being intentionally mischevious. Everyone knows that every male has a feminine side as well. There are men that are "hard" men and others break down and run at the sign of any problem. Also there are women who are very male like hence the term "tomboys". Furthermore there are even people born with physical male and female genitilia! So who the heck is to say this is natural and this is not.

Please lets try and answer posts with some intelligence and education. No offence intended, cheers.

It's easy to see why Nigeria is having problems developing when grown ups can spend days arguing about whether "mammy waters" exist. How about ghosts, horses with horns and pigs that fly? I'm sure there are a lot more real and relevant issues that can be discussed. Let's leave silly superstition aside.

@misright, it is quite impossible for any Christian to prove all the Bible stories are true. I think being a literal believer in the Bible is quite a task. That said though one can go more for the spirit behind the Bible. I guess in a way that was Jesus's message too. Follow the spirit of the law and not just the law. Whether you are not a Christian because you don't believe in all the Biblical stories is frankly not important. Our actions and behavior judge us more than what we claim to believe.

I can't understand what exactly is going on with Nepa. The electricity situation has been so bad in the last few weeks. So much money has been spent on generators buying diesel or petrol. Still we want to attract foriegn investment in the country. I think rather than just discussing who we want for the next president we should be talking about what - whoever is "elected" - plans to do about the basic standard of living in the country.

I'm sort of new to this forum and I've found some of the posts here quite interesting. My own views on the matters.

First off the question of whether God exists is always a very difficult one. I believe that in our minds we form an idea of God based on our upbringing, experiences in life, culture etc. Secondly the human brain is not perfect, we form our views based on what we can percieve. Stuff we "know" now may
be modified or even rubbished ten years from now. Based on that premise you cannot ask someone if he believes in God without defining what God means to you. Even two members of the same religion may have widely different concepts of God.

The human brain conceptualizes God because we cannot fathom order in the universe within a creator. I do believe however that over time our understanding of life, creation, our existence and purpose become clearer. Sort of like an evolution of the mind.

The other factor discussed a lot here is faith. I think faith is less of choice and more of need. In a country like Nigeria with all its problems people may find a "need" to have faith in God. It's helps to get people through the stress of everyday life. Notice the big drop in church going in developed countries with good welfare systems, good educational systems, acceptable governance etc.

Anyway this is just my view on some of the issues I've read about here. Interested in hearing what others think about this views.

Interesting topic. It is true the most of the "laws" in religious books make common sense. It would help to follow the rules because the laws are beneficial to us rather than out of fear of eternal damnation.

It's also interesting to see how threatening these ideas seem to be to some other persons. When people get mad at others points of view it's unsually a reflection of some sort of unease or insecurity in themselves. Otherwise it should be easy to simply state their own point of view without resorting to personal attacks.