₦airaland Forum

@Afam,

I am plenty aware of all the events you are talknig about and it is only convenient for you to side with the ones who seem to hold on to your line of thought.  Why don't you tell us what others have said.  Was it only Powell that wrote a letter to congress about this issue?  What about the stance of the Military Attorneys who said they side President Bush on this matter?  What about the congress men who voted to allow Bush's proposal?  What exactly was Bush asking for with respect to Article 3?  You need to understand that this is an election year, and many are just doing all they can to keep their seats not based on what is best for the American public.

It's funny that you are the only one that saw and heard Bush say God told him to go to war in Iraq.  Such a statement would have been in the news and stay in the news especially at a time like this.  It is a wrong conclusion and a pre-emptive policy that led to the iraq war.  You may cry lies for all I care, it still doesn't make that a fact.

I am not here to paint you or anybody black.  You claim to stand on the side of justice, yet you are quick to call another man a liar without proof.  Justice for who?  For all or for some?  

You calim religion is not part of these whole scenario, yet you say Bush said God told him to go to war!  What exactly are you sayiing Afam?  so God's name is associated with only secular things now, abi?

I have no problems with your stance and opinions thus far.  My only issue is that the role of religion is neglected in the whole affair.  You may say all you want about justice, fair play and the 'notorious US policy', but until you address the role of religion as well, you are merely going round in circles.  There is injustice all over the world.  I suppose the notorious US policy is also a world wide problem, but why are some (muslims) the only ones blowing themselves and others up?  Why arent they following in the steps of people like Mandella and Reverend Martin Luther King junior?  Why will they say they love death as much as the West love life?  Why would they say the West may be armed with atomic bomb, but they are armed with the population bomb?  Are all these staements based on secular reasoning or religious ones.  

We need to ask some hard questions and be willing to explore all options before we just dismiss them with the wave of the hand because they do not saound politically correct.

Good one there babyosisi. In other words, muslims are meant to ask us for guidance and direction when they are in doubt. I hope these guys will follow the advice of Mohammed and his koran. Here are the references again for those who wont pick up the koran to read.

010.094
YUSUFALI: If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.
PICKTHAL: And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers.
SHAKIR: But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you; certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputers.

So what have you to say olabowale.

babs787,

You mentioned categorically that the Bible talks about original sin which is nothing but a lie.  I have told you to bring forth scriptures that say that, but you went about posting the same things you posted before.  I have read them, and there is nothing like original sin mentioned in those passages.

The teaching of the Bible which is glaring from all those passages when you read in context is that we all inherit a sin nature.  I will explain that further if you really want to know.  In the mean time, just acknowledge the Bible doesn;t say what you claim it says.  That's the only way I can know that you are sincere and credible. And as your koran has said, if you have any doubts ask us who are the people of the Book:
010.094
YUSUFALI: If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.
PICKTHAL: And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers.
SHAKIR: But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you; certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputers.

@Afam,

Maybe they are beginning to see through the many lies of Bush.

What lies are those? And please provide the proofs. I am beginning to feel we need to ask for hard proofs from you guys to back up your allegations. You have claimed that Bush said God told him to invade Iraq, you blame terrorism on U.S. policy as if it is the policy that is strapped up with bombs to kill innocent civilians, and now you claim Bush is trying to redefine Article 3 of the Geneva convention. All your claims are baseless and with no proofs. They are based on conjecture. Remember, it is that same conjecture that led to the Iraq War.

"Also, it is interesting that you said Collin Powell "made a case for the Iraq war", yet you will say Bush "lied". I smell double standard here.

As christians, the only rule we have in choosing a life partner is that the person must be a christian. Every other factors we bring into play must be guided by wisdom and the choice must be made through the individual's free will.

@olabowale,

Can you tell me how you plan to go ahead to save you and your family from hell fire?  I don't mean to mock you or make light of this desire, 'cos I believe that is the reason why Jesus came to die.  I just wonder how following Mohammed, who in his later life said he wasn't sure where allah was going to send him to, would help you escape the fires of hell.  Isn't this a case of the blind following the leadings of the blind?

Jesus' offer is still there for you to accept.  He said in Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.   At least, these words were not written by paul whom you have chosen to dismiss.  These are Jesus' words and His rest is still available for your soul.

@brown-eyes,

You could be right. But we need to realise that the West only recently began to advocate for democracy in the middle east as a direct strategy to combat the threat of terrorism.

The West realises that some of these guys are violent because they are unable to make there voice heard and understood as it would in a democratic setting. The West may be naive in this regard, but they at least feel that a democratic middle east with the people determining who their government is will do a lot to stem the growing frustration which have now been directed at the West, especially the ever popular US policy.

There is no way peace can be achieved without the underlying problems addressed and solved.

As long as some people feel that they have the right to kill others because of some religious beliefs, then we will only be back at square one.  As long as you want to spread your religion to other lands while keeping others away from yours, the troubles will continue.  As long as no one is willing and ready to compromise on their stance, then we shall always have anarchy.  As long as we have clerics blowing hot air and preaching violence and jihad, then the struggle continues.  As long as the supreme spiritual leader of a land wields more power and influence over the secular government, then armageddon is sure to come.

And until we look at all these ramifications, peace, though desired will continue to ellude us.

this is very intriguing, if we say there are only 2 sides to a problem and those 2 sides were to go away how will the problem continue to exist?

It wouldn't go away because of the nebulous U.S policy! Or can the nukes take care of that too?

@donnie,

There is a lot to be careful about, and I will advise you guys to thread with caution. The article I refered to talked about several instances of pastor Chris' claim of seeing dead Bible times saints. Anyway, do you have his statement on tape that you can share? I will like to hear this for myself and see what it means in context.

Personally, I have always admired Pastor Chris until his fraternity with T.B. Joshua.  Contrary to God's Word, he felt like there is concordance between light and darkness, Christ and belial; and I felt he seriously compromised his stance as a christian leader.

I see no scriptural precedence to this 'vision' and while I'll be careful to say it is not of God, I just want you all to be aware that Satan also gives visions. 

I think the 'miracles' and apparent 'success' makes a lot of people to think this man must be doing God's will absolutely.  But as Paul has said, unless you run lawfully, all your eforts will be in vain.  But we must balance this out with Paul's admonition again that as long as Christ is preached, then we should be content.

I have had some discussions with some members of the Church before, and I was just surprised by the zeal that most time is not backed with true knowledge of scriptures.  Many think that they know, but obviously they don't.  Knowledge has puffed them up and I wish most times, it is accurate knowledge.

I do wish him and his flock well.  Afterall, they are my brothers in Christ, and my only prayer is that they remain in Him and understand that of Him, through Him and to Him must be ALL things.

@olabowale

Then in this, I ask you how can you claimed that Muhammad (AS) plagirised the Bible. When this man  (AS), could not read nor write.

When and where did I say that Muhammad plagiarised the Bible?  Do you know the meaning of that word 'plagiarise'?  I will accept you do not know what it means, hence your wrong use of the word.  Muhammad only repeated what he heard said of the Bible and added his own version to it.  Of course we know it is false testimony, hence our refusla to accept his fraud.

Jesus is my Lord, and not your moon god, allah that mohammed has so packaged and offered to you guys as the true God.  I am not of those he will deceive.  And my prayer is not for you and your kind to burn in hell, but for your eyes to be opened that you may see the goodness of the true Lord in the land of the living (isn't that a contrast to what you and your prophet offers?)

In all the muslims writing, no one has insulted Jesus (AS). It is not permissable for a person to be Muslim and do not belief in the birth and miracles

Why do you persist in deceiving yourself?  How much more can you insult someone when you do not believe the things He claims of Himself.  You have been deceived to assume that believing in Jesus' miracles qualifies you as a follower of His faith.  What about believing His testimony such as we see here in John 14: 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

So do you believe this testimony Jesus made of Himself?  Or would you consider the testimony balderdash just because He did not receive it on the lapse of a 9 year old girl as your prophet was testified to have been doing?

I wonder why most of you guys keep picking on Afam's "peace in the midle east is acheivable if both parties play fair".
What would you rather suggest?

Don't just tal about peace. Everyone wants peace. The issue is how do you negotiate peace with Hezbollah, Al-Quaida and the likes? When you withdraw as we saw in Somalia, they see it as a sign of weakness and get emboldened to do more as proven by 911.

And how do you keep them from killing "infidels" when they have been promised by their role model - Mohammed, that heaven and dozens of virgins as well as strong drinks await them in paradise for killing non-muslims.

Do you know that Mohammed said none should be punished for killing an infidel? No wonder Isreal prisons is full of murderers who will live as heroes if left to roam about their native countries.

@olabowale,

If you spend more time reading through others' posts and try to research into their accsations, perhaps you'll have more to think about than trying to spit out the venom that is lodged deep inside your heart. 

While you, your prophet and allah (yes, small letter 'a') do wish to fill hell with men (according to your koran), our Lord who is indeed full of mercy says He does not desire the death of any sinner, but that all should come to repentance.

How can Mo be my prophet, and that moon god, allah be my Lord?  I hold myself to greater standard of morality than Mo was ever able to attain.  God Almighty knows better than to use a pedophile as our prophets.  But let me tell you something which will come to pass indeed, no matter how long you fight against it and deny it here on earth.  The Lord has promised and will never repent  10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phillipians 2:10-11)

Even Mo will bow to Jesus and confess his Lordship.

I'm still waiting for all someone to respond my request above.

Here the Pope: [url]http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1534640,00.html?cnn=yes[/url]

I assume your dodging the issues raised is just a tacit approval of your ignorance of the subjects.

You are a shame to the Ijebus to imply that you descend from the Arabs. And if you claim that you are rightly a muslim because you descend from the Arabs, are you now saying your idea of the God that exists is one who is racially blind? If the Europeans and Africans are not Arab descendants, so why are you and you ilk bent on converting them to your dark religion?

You are just digging your grave deeper. In any case, the bottom line is that your muderous, rapist and pedophilic prophet was and is not worthy of mention in the holy scriptures called the Bible.

@olabowale,

Keep your ognorant opinion about the Bible to yourself. You claim the Bible is corrupted. Why don't you provide the original one? It is so convenient to level an accusation that has no backing whatsoecer.

So isn't Islam foreign to the blacks? For your information, the Bible does not promote slavery. Rather, I see your prophet as the one who thinks Arabs are the best of people and who owned and encouraged slavery during his days. He had no high regard for blacks and said your intercession will not be received. You are blindly following an arab nationalist who wants you to talk like Arbs, visit his country for their economic development, dres like them and follow their own laws. How African are you believing and folowing those practices?

Ishaq:243 "I heard the Apostle say: ‘Whoever wants to see Satan should look at Nabtal!' He was a black man with long flowing hair, inflamed eyes, and dark ruddy cheeks…. Allah sent down concerning him: ‘To those who annoy the Prophet there is a painful doom."

[9:61] "Gabriel came to Muhammad and said, ‘If a black man comes to you his heart is more gross than a donkey's.'"

Ishaq:144 “A rock was put on a slave’s chest. When Abu Bakr complained, they said, ‘You are the one who corrupted him, so save him from his plight.’ I will do so,’ said Bakr. ‘I have a black slave, tougher and stronger than Bilal, who is a heathen. I will exchange him. The transaction was carried out.”

Qur’an 9:97 “The Arabs of the desert are the worst in unbelief and hypocrisy, and most fitted to be in ignorance of the command which Allah hath sent down to His Messenger.”

Tabari II:11 “Shem, the son of Noah was the father of the Arabs, the Persians, and the Greeks; Ham was the father of the Black Africans; and Japheth was the father of the Turks and of Gog and Magog who were cousins of the Turks. Noah prayed that the prophets and apostles would be descended from Shem and kings would be from Japheth. He prayed that the African’s color would change so that their descendants would be slaves to the Arabs and Turks.”

Tabari II:21 “Ham [Africans] begat all those who are black and curly-haired, while Japheth [Turks] begat all those who are full-faced with small eyes, and Shem [Arabs] begat everyone who is handsome of face with beautiful hair. Noah prayed that the hair of Ham’s descendants would not grow beyond their ears, and that whenever his descendants met Shem’s, the latter would enslave them.”

Tabari IX:69 “Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah’s helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will fight him forever in Allah’s Cause. Killing him is a small matter to us.”

Bukhari: V9B89N256 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘You should listen to and obey your ruler even if he is a black African slave whose head looks like a raisin.’”
Ishaq:450 “It is your folly to fight the Apostle, for Allah’s army is bound to disgrace you. We brought them to the pit. Hell was their meeting place. We collected them there, black slaves, men of no descent.

Ishaq:374 “The black troops and slaves of the Meccans cried out and the Muslims replied, ‘Allah destroy your sight, you impious rascals.’”

Bukhari:V4B52N137 “The Prophet said, ‘Let the negro slave of Dinar perish. And if he is pierced with a thorn, let him not find anyone to take it out for him, If he [the black slave] asks for anything it shall not be granted, and if he needs intercession [to get into paradise], his intercession will be denied.”

Is it true that Pastor Chris now claims to see dead saints in the form of Apostle Paul showing up at his meetings?  I came across this information while reading the following article. http://yomi.domainstandard.net/church/chris-oyakhilome/

Can someone please confirm or disprove this accusation!!

@babyosisi,

How dare you expect olabowale and co to take you seriously!!  Don't you know their prophet said your testimony is half of that of a man?!

babs787,

Why not provide the bible quote that says we inherit an original sin. If you can just provide one quotation that supports this from the Bible, then I will be obliged to take you seriously.

Why should I go on to other issues you raised when we are yet to tackle the first one you mentioned. If you can't provide biblical refernces to your first accusations, why should I bother myself trying to disprove other accusations you've made against the Bible.

Just provide the Bible quote that supports or mentions an "original sin" doctrine, then we can go on from there. If you find none, i will expect you to tender an apology for trying to mislead people, including yourself. I hope you are honorable enough to do just that.

@olabowale,

You have not ceased to spread ignorance on the world wide web, baa? This is nothing but ignorance gone on rampage. From one thread to another, you never cease to amaze me with your ignorant statements backed by unbridled zeal.

@Bhola,

Thanks jare. Can you imagine the effontery of this mere dust called olabowale. Trying to put words in God's mouth.

@olabowale,

Keep whining in ignorance. Provide your bible quote and stop this diversion tactics which aint working. You have been revealed to be a fraud, and such is the end of people like you. Trying to put words in the Bible that are not there. What arrogance.

Let me show you what the Bible says about people like you.
Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book

Keep adding to God's Word and watch plagues multiply over your sorry soul. You still have time to repent now before it is too late.

Brown-eyes,

I never called all muslims wrong doers. I was refering to those who are suicide bombers, and I said the common factor between all thes bombers is Islam. Here is my statement again in context:

Aren 't they wrong-doers? What would you expect us to call them: traitors, resistance fighters? There is only one thing that binds all these suicide bombers together: Islam.

Brown-Eyes,
Quote from: Mariory on Yesterday at 09:38:40 AM

_{You need to ask yourself a honest question.  Why is it that the fertile recruiting ground for Osama and his guys is the mosque?  Why don't they go to the Church to recruit?}

That is because it is Muslims being attacked and as a Christian would you be prepared to fight for another faith?

Find your reference above in response to my earlier post.  So was this typed in error or is it just a case of selective amnesia.

Since you and some others are the once blaming U.S. policies for everything, why don't you tell us what those policies are instead of asking those of us who don't believe that such policies exists to manufacture one for you.

@Brown-eyes,

Now which one you want to direct your hatred to?

This will be the last time I will try to explain to you that I do not hate anybody.  I don't have the capacity to do that.  It is such a waste of energy and it never solves anything.  I hate Islam does not mean I hate the Muslims.  I have muslims in my extended family and I relate with them just fine.  I love them with all my heart but I hate the religion they are into.

You are only sounding like the people here in the U.S. who cry hate when we fight against homosexuality.  I, like some, hate the practice and lifestyle of homosexuality, but I will lay down my life to save a homosexual just as I would a straight person.  Condemnation of the lifestyle does not equate condemnation of the person.  So am I at liberty to call you an anti-semite just because you oppose the actions of Isreal?

I will be left with no choice but to ignore you if you can't make a dinstinction between these concepts, because it only shows that you have such a myopic view that is beyond repair. 

While you may choose to ignore the role of religion in these conflicts, others consider it a major factor that must be dealt with without leaving other factors out.  Your stance can be likened to saying all we need to prevent the killings we witness in the North is to keep Igbos and Christians from provoking their Muslim and Hausa hosts without dealing with the motiviating factor behind the killing: Islam.

Anyway, can you provide the proof that it is only muslims that are under the so-called U.S. attacks as you claimed?

@olabowale,

Except that the Catholics will be happy to know from you that they are not christians. Don't you know that the protestants broke away from Catholizm and your Bible is based on the cathlic Bible. It really shows how much you know about the origin of "Christianity".

I have said before that I doubt if you understand what you read. Where did I say catholics are not christians. You obviously love to read meanings into others statements that are not there. No wonder you agree that the Bible teaches the doctrine of "original sin".

As long as you do not provide the Bible quote, you are nothing more than a conspiray theorists who has no idea what he is talking about.

All I need to know about the origin of christianity is there in the Bible. The ideal church is observed in the Book of Acts.

No where is it said that the Catholic doctrines are divinely inspired, but it is said that the scriptures are divinely inspired. What you are dwelling on is just the opinions of men which are subject to error and personal biases. Come up with biblical proofs before you can be taken seriosly.

@Brown eyes,

That is because it is Muslims being attacked and as a Christian would you be prepared to fight for another faith?

Mmm. I thought you had earlier claimed that people of all faiths were attacked in Lebanon. Why is it just a Muslim thing now?

So do you now agree that it is a 'faith' thing? For you to say that Christians will not fight along-side these muslim suicide bombers only goes to show an acknowledgement that this is a religious war.

@olabowale,

While islam preach and propagate the sinlessness of man from birth, and attributing sin to whoever has done it alone, the religion of Christianity condemn all mankind as sinners-a perpetual sinners indeed who must inherit the original sin.

It is not my fault if you can not understand what you read. However, above is the quote by babs747 that started this whole discussion. You will notice he says the religion of christianity and not catholism teaches about people inheriting an original sin. The final authority over Christians is the Bible and until you can show the quote and the doctrine form the Bible, you have only wasted your time and that of others on a baseless statement.

I can say with all certainty that you do not know what you are talking about. You may keep quiet for all you want, that is better than opening your mouth in ignorance and propagating lies that have no basis. For as long as you maintain this stand and try to teach people to believe the Bible says what it does not say, then I will ever be here to antagonise you. That is a Promise!

@olabowale and babs 787,

Do you both now agree that there is no instance of an 'original sin' mentioned in the bible, or at all preached by the Bible? Let us agree that you guys missed it totally on this one, then we can go on to others. At least, now that your error and deliberate misleading or perhaps abject ignorance of the bilical teaching is exposed, the honorable thing is to acknowledge your wrong.

Why should I bother to prove or disprove anything to you any more when you are not willing to accept that you have been proved wrong on your very first point on this thread?

As for what I think the 'original sin' is, there is nothing like that. The first sin on earth was disobedience, if that is what you are trying to say. However, that sin was not imputed to the rest of us. The only thing the Bible teaches is the sin nature in our flesh which all who are born of Adam will possess. I shouldn't even bother to educate you on this matter since you choose not to acknowledge your ignorance.

My final authority is the Bible and I will not join issues with you with whatever anybody else wrote on the internet. They have the right to say whatever they want, but I have only one rule: if it aint Bible, it is not better than trash. At least, one who calls himself a Reverend on nairaland was also deceived by this teaching which has absolutely no biblical basis.

@OLABOWALE,

Are you trying to tell me there is no original sin quoted in the Bible?  So what exactly is your stress? If you can't show biblical references, then your argument falls flat on its face.

I have used the phrase 'original sin' here in answer to your question.  The same phrase was used in answer to Reverend who was also out of line. The use of the phrase was just to point out the errors of you two, and I state exactly what my stance is: our problem is not about inheriting Adam's or anybody's sin, our problem is in inheriting a sin nature. 

You are just way out of line, and if you can't prove your argument from the Bible, then you have no case.  Just go back to your clerics maybe they will give you more information to confuse you further.

Ok can you answer the following questions
Do you call all Muslims wrong - doers for following Islam?
Did you read the whole Quran by yourself with a person to guide you through as you will have in bible study?
Do you condemn Islam for being evil because Allah says fight for me and defend the faith no matter what?
In what way did you observe Muhammed's lifestyle?

I never said muslims are wrong-doers for following that religion.  All I said is that the religion promotes violence in this day and age and is highly intolerant.  
So have you had someone teach you the Qu'ran for you to conclude that my conclusions are wrong?
Of course it is evil for advocating violence.  Imagine the world today if Islam encourages turning the other cheek as the Bible teaches and encourages.
Maybe you need to do some reading up yourself about Mohammed.  He was a war-monger who encouraged even the raping of women in war.  His hands were soiled in other people's blood and he happens to be the role model for a billion plus people today.

If Christians were following Jesus' example why did the Crusades take place?
Why did Christians along with the Jews endorse the Slave trade?
Where was the peace option then?

I just think you are not following my argument or rather, you have failed to see my reasoning.  To understand what Christianity teaches, look at Christ, not Christians.  To understand what Islam teaches, look at Mohammed, not the terrorists, nor the clerics.  You have rightly pointed out "if Christinas were following Jesus' example", but tell me, what example did Mohammed show to his billion plus followers today?

So the Israelites were not told by their God to kill every living thing they came across in the land of Canaan? They decided amongst themselves they needed a place to live and went on a killing spree?

All the Isrealites did were in the name of their king, not necessarily their God.  They were a Theocratic State.  I hope you will and are able to understand the differences.

For someone to go out there and blow themselves to bits takes a lot of courage and it shows that person must be so desperate for a very good reason. Maybe they have seen the effects of the uranium bombs dropped on their countries, I don't really understand how you can overlook US involvement in the whole matter. You want to understand the reasons suicide bombers behave this way and i say look not to their religion but to the one that pulls the strings.

I'm not overlooking the so-called U.S involvement.  The U.S. is involved in every country on this planet.  The average Briton feels like their country is now the 51st State of the Union.  How many of them are blowing themselves up to protest this?  Except some of the muslims among them who have been indoctrinated into Islam and are now blowing up the country that providesd them with welfare and a voice they would otherwise not have in the Arab countries.  

You need to ask yourself a honest question.  Why is it that the fertile recruiting ground for Osama and his guys is the mosque?  Why don't they go to the Church to recruit?