₦airaland Forum

@Afam,

Indeed the prisoner exchange will eventully take place, but it is going to be at a vantage point for Isreal on the long run. Imagine if Isreal had capitulated before the war and gone ahead with a prisoner exchange, then you can expect hezbollah to go ahead and stage more kidnappings and killings of more Isrealis. This precedence will surely keep them from ever doing the same thing again.

Any militant group that dares to enter into Isreal to kidnap anyone will have to learn the Lebanon way. I am sure no one will want that sort of reaction from Isreal. Isreal may not have achieved all that they planned for, but they have surely set a good deterent for any adventurers to think of before setting out on such Indiana Jones moves.

@Enigma,

Before you go around talking about how the tithe is meant to be spent, please let's establish if the tithe is a present day reality or not.

EmemJU,

You need to butress your points with biblical facts. I was hoping I will at least get one person who claims that tithing is done away with to provide a scriptural basis for it.

The question still remains to you EmemJU and others: What is the Gift offered by the Priesthood of Jesus Christ if the sacrifice He offers is undoubtedly His blood?

@TV01,

Okay, since you do not agree that the tithe is the gift, can you please tell us what the gift is?  Please be reminded that the blood offering must be the sacrifice aspect of the priestly job description.

Or could it be that you believe the gift aspect of the Priestly function of Jesus is done away with in the new covenant?

What you request of me, I have said over and over again, but you still want me to repeat myself. So now, I think the onus is on you to tell us what is offered on our behalf by Jesus as the gift.

@Zahymaka,

Indeed the hebrew name of Jesus is Yeshua, which I transliterated to Joshua for the guy to see the fundamental error in his posting.

@jagunlabi,

Blind hatred that is out to enforce an agender often clouds up the thinking of some of these scholars.  I bet that is where the problem lies.

I can see another muslim coming on board to tell us they know more about our saviour than we do.  Whatever your name is, Isa was never Jesus' name. That is the name given to Him by your Qu'ran which muddles up different characters, names and events.

And by the way, the Hebrew name of Jesus is actually Joshua, the name Jesus is Greek.  So go back and find out from those 'scholars' who are confusing you before you try and make a mountain out of a molehill here.

Hi TV01,

Thanks for your piece which now informs my response:

Firstly, the bible makes it very clear that gifts are offered according to the law

This statement is very misleading as it gives the notion that the gifts are offered only as required by law.  Abraham wasn't under the law when he paid his tithe.  Tithing was brought into the law as part of the priestly office.  The common denominator in all these cases is the priesthood, and not the law.  The emphasis in Hebrews 8:4 is actually on the priest and not on the gift as you make it appear to be.  And if the levitical priests do offer the gifts according to the law, under what covenant did Melkchizedek offer his?  Please don't tell me it's the law.

Secondly, the gifts offered according to the law are only copies and shadows (types) of the heavenly things.

If the blood of bulls and lambs were a shadow of the blood of Jesus, what is the reality of the gift of tithe?  We need to make a dinstinction clearly between the gift and the sacrifice, otherwise we stand in danger of muddling everything up together.  And accroding to Hebrews 8:3, Jesus must necessarily have to offer gifts and sacrifices.

Thirdly, said law has now been done away with

How does this affect the tithe?  The tithe predates the law and must necessarily outdate it. 

The gift aspect is redundant as gifts are offered according to the law ON EARTH.

As a High Priest who is seated at the right Hand of The Majesty on High and not an earth-based, law-bound, flesh-driven one, he is free from the limits and obligations of any earthly rituals.

Please refer to 8:3 again
…………. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer.

Indeed, the “something to offer” which satisfies and more than satisfies any earthly type, was offered once for all (eternally) and not daily, as it would be here on earth.

Hebrews 7:27
who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people's, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

Again here TV01, you are not making any dinstinction between the Gift and the Sacrifice.  Indeed, the sacrifice of His blood is done once and for all, and I beg to disagree that the gift and the sacrifice can be equated. Okay tell me I pray you, is the tithe now a part of the sacrifice?  If not, it must necessarily be a gift, and if it is a gift, Jesus must necessarily have to offer the gift of the tithe.  And stop trying to make the tithe sound like it is subject to the law because it isn't. It was only brought into the law because the people under God's covenant then were under the dispensation of the law. The common feature of all who pay tithe is the fact that they were all God's covenant people. And if your assumption that the blood of Jesus takes care of both the gifts and the sacrifice, then you might as well do away with freewill offerings because it suggests that the blood of Jesus is not efficacious enough.

If you have in any way been consistent, it’s in your parallel attempt to enforce an act of tribute (tithe), by a pre-covenant worshipper (Abraham), as mandatory for covenant (post-law) worshippers.

I believe this must be a slip of the keyboard.  So Abraham was under the law?  So he wasn't in covenant with God?  Please re-word this statement as I believe you have not properly presented your intentions here. And by the way, if Abraham considered it necessary to pay a tribute to God (and not to men), then why should it be different under this covenant?

In fact, the gifts and sacrifices were not desired by or pleasing to God

If we are going to translate the bible literarily according to Hebrews 10:5 that you quoted while making the above statement, then you will see that the Bible actually mention sacrifices and offerings, and not gifts as you are potraying.  So you must even stop giving offerings as God is not pleased with them right?  However, careful reading of the scripture suggests the only problem was the law.  Tithing predates the law and you can never bring it subject to it.

My reading (which is of course in no way binding on anyone) is this;
Gifts ~ are an act of freewill offering, acts of worship if you will
Sacrifices ~ (not ignoring that gifts can be sacrificed) are a means of atonement.
Tithes ~ are a form of tax or tribute

I am glad you mention that sacrifices are meant for atonement.  That means the tithe must be excluded as it has no bearing with the atonement.  It is only the shedding of blood that brings about the remission of sins.  My problem with your conslusion is limiting the gift to only freewill offerings when we saw that it was the tithe that Abraham paid to Melchizedek when He saw him.  I feel safer to conclude that the tithe must necessarily be the gift.

Please sir, explain, what is this affectation with tithe equalling gifts? And from whence does it come? On what is it based? And where exactly does it lead?

I have explained this a number of times.  A priest offers both gifts and sacrifice.  The tithe beign given to melchizedek suggest that it must necessarily be the gift as we cannot conclude that the tithe was the sacrifice.  The origin of tithing predates the law and it was observed as soon as a priest came on the scene.  The tithe is not based on the law but on a covenant as we see Melchizedek holding the bread and the wine which were a symbol of the covenant.  The tithe leads us to acknowledge God as the creator of heaven and earth and the primary owner of all things as the name used for God in the passage where Abraham met Melchizedek acknowledges God as the creator.

I hope you will look at what I have said in the light of the scripture and as I mentioned, the key is in distinguishing between the gift and the sacrifice.  May God continually open the eyes of our understanding.

My hand is extended through the monitor. I hope I get a hand in return and not a viper!

It is a satellite dish located on the earth's orbit. Any mention of Okotie prompts it to send signals straight to my cell phone.

Anyway, same applies to you, you are ever around to oppose. Makes the whole thing interesting.

@dignity,

In addition to what you have said, there seems to be a lack of understanding that jesus' second coming is actually in stages. When He comes to take the saints away is different from when He comes to Judge and Rule i.e. The Day of the Lord.

@gigitte,

Thanks for your correction! however, I still do not see much differece in the two scenarios we paited, though yours is definitely more accurate.

The scriptures that you are talking about says we should pray one for another. Does that mean that you are also interceding for those who are dead already? Or do they have the monopoly of interceding for the living? And while you are asking them to intercede for you, are you not assuming that these departed saints are both Omnipresent and omnipotent? So can they hear you and a thousand others praying at the same time at differenet locations, though some of the prayers may not have been verbalised but thought of?

Besides, isn't Jesus Christ enough for us as an intercessor? He is the only one the Bible says "ever liveth to make intercession for us." As far as I know, those practices seem good and spiritual but they are antiscriptural. But then, how much importance do catholics attach to the Bible?

@Hnd_holder,

If you understand the Bible better than I do, why don't you lead by example. There has been a concentrated dialogue on the issue of this thread for the past 3 to 4 pages until you showed up and made a very frivolous statement.

I took the pains to show you that you were out of order, but you only came back to attack my personality. It seems to me that serving you back in your own coin is the only way to keep you focused on the topic at hand, and I hope it does just that.

Anyway, if you have anything to say to what we are discussing, your view points are welcomed. Just try to be objective and not throw cheap insults around.

TV01,

I have been somewhat busy recently, and I was hoping to get more input from people. I didn't initiate this topic just to get my views across but to get an understanding of other's viewpoint. That is a good way to learn.

I will definitely make an input once I see it necessary.

How did you come about your opinion that I shifted position? I don't think anything in my previous posts suggests that at all. And by the way, what is my position?

I believe David was anointed king long before he actually ascended the throne. Saul was the ruler in the flesh, but the one appointed in the spirit was still roaming around in caves and hiding.

@babyosisi,

I am sorry, but I cannot recall ever insulting your intelligence at all. I have always been very mindful of how I relate to people on this forum, and you have not said nor done anything to provoke an unwarranted attack on you from my person.

I think you may have mistaken my address at Hnd_holder to be directed at you. It is not so at all. I only served the guy back in his own coin and I did that as mildly as I could while pointing out his folly.

If you have been offended at all, I sincerely apologise. I have learnt a lot on this forum and I do not intend to jeorpadise that at. As I noted, I believe you are quite sincere, but wrong. I hope you do not suppose that to be an insult on your person.

Please accept my sincere apologies if indeed I have offended you.

And Davidlylan, you forgot to include the following addendum:

Blonde harem available only to those who kill moslem converts to christianity!!!

Let's hope robbers won't steal all those cameras like they vandalise the bridges and other public facilities. 

I wonder which cctvs they plan to install to prevent the looting of the national treasury.

I used to attend the church until I relocated to Abuja and subsequently the United States. all I've herad him make are statements of faith such as: come 2003, I will be president. He puts a timing to it, just as we are told that now is the accepted time. I call myself a lot of things that I am not now in the flesh. But I am established there in the spirit and will reach that destination in the flesh soon.

That God told him he will be President does not mean it will be in 2003. It can be later on. Jonah prophesied the destruction of Nineveh but it never happened until much later on. Words of true prophecy may be delayed but never denied.

Hi TV01,

Do you agree with the scriptures that a Priest must necessarily offer both sacrifices and gifts?

If you do, do you believe Jesus as our priest today must do the same?

And if that is the case, what gifts does Jesus offer today?

If you can tell me what this is from God's Word, then I have no problems at all. This singular reason is why I believe the tithe is still necesary today. I cannot get myself to ignore this passage of scriptures especially as it is stated in at least 3 places.

You have claimed my conclusions are wrong but you are yet to show me either where the Bible says that tithes are done away with as it does with respect to the sacrifices, neither have you shown me what gifts Jesus offers today as our High Priest.

I do believe in grace, but i believe there is works in grace.

With regards to Prophets and prophecies, I am not conversant with this MOG who prophesied about Utomi and Duke, but I am conversant very well with Okotie.

I have never known Okotie to come out and be playing Prophet by telling you what will become of a country and people. If we understand from the scriptures what Prophecy is all about, then we will not be treating it as fore-telling which is what most people are doing. Prophecy is actually much different than that, but since this is not a religious forum, I would not delve into the technicalities.

However, what I have known Okotie to do is to play by the principle of faith as revealed in the scriptures. If indeed God has planned and told him he'll become President, the faith principle requires him to talk about it boldly and in the open. Jesus said, what I have told you in secret, say it out on the roof top. As Christians, we all live by this principle. There have been times I have been sick in my body and I keep saying I am healed. If you asked me who told me if I was healed, I'll tell you God did. But does that make God a liar if I was still sick in my body at that point in time? No way! It just means that which is a spiritual truth is yet to materialise in the physical. As far as Okotie is concerned, I believe he considers himself the President of Nigeria whether it happens physically in 10 years or 100 years is irrelevant. it is a spiritual reality to him and the works of faith is all that he is doing now.

I have followed his ministry closely, and I know he is not one to say things or do things rashly. Could he have heard God wrong? Yes! But I believe in him, God really has someone who will do whatever he is intructed to do as long as he believes he is standing in truth and in rightousnes. He is not a fake, neither is he one who compromises on his stand. He is never afraid to tackle issues and he has the intelligence, wherewithal and strength of character to ascend to the highest offfice of our land.

Those who some prefer ahead of him have not proven themselves to have a better strength of character nor better leadership qualities than he does. Most of all, none has shown they have better plans and manifestoes than he does. On this, I will still play my wild card and vote for him ahead of the other candidates.

@lioness,

It is not only Mary they pray to, they pray to all manner of Saints. From what I learnt recently, one of the steps to becoming a Saint in Catholism is if there is a miracle when someone prays to you. I stand to be corrected if I am wrong on this issue.

Anyway, Luke 1;28 and 48 are some of the primary reasons why they give so much attention to Mary. they fail to see however that the Bible says that Mary is blessed amongst women and not above them. And by the way, it talks only of women and not men.

Anyone who has read that passage in Luke 1:26-45 will see clearly that the only reason that the baby in Elizabeth's womb lept for joy is because mary was carrying Jesus. The big deal is not about Mary but about the seed in her womb. As Elizabeth said, it is all about her Lord whom Mary was to give birth to.

I can see some have nothing to contribute but to attack personalities.  I wonder who is in need of some manners. And by the way, the issue you raised is about semantics and not dogma as you are implying. Try not to use big words that you do not understand.

@babyosisi,

I do sense sincerity in your post, but do you realise that you can be sincerely wrong?  Accepted, you may not be able to go through all 22 pages of postings but the last 2 or 3 pages should give you an idea where the discussion stands now.  I will present my salient points in support of tithing to you again and I hope you deal with the points I raise exhaustively.  Others have side-stepped this because they could not provide an answer, yet they still hold on to their pre-conceived notion that tithing is not acceptable in our dispensation.

There are no Levities today, there is no man that is now in the place of Melchizedek.

I am surprised by this statement especially coming from someone who claims to have spent considerable time studying the concept of tithing.  Indeed there are no Levities today, but there is one who is our High Priest after the order of Melchizedek.  As I have stated before, there are only two priestly Orders in the scripture, the Levitical and the melchizedek.  The priesthood of Jesus Christ today is after the order of Melchizedek's.  Go back and study the Book of Hebrews again.

As I also stated before, the Book of Hebrews expounds that every priest must necessarily offer both gifts and sacrifices (this was stated in at least 3 verses).  Jesus already offered the sacrifice of His blood once and for all, and this was emphasised very clearly in Hebrews.  However, nothing was said about the gifts that Jesus offered being done away with.  

Common sense tells us that to find out what gifts Jesus as our High Priest offers, we must find out what gifts Melchizedek offered and received from one who is in covenant with God.  A study of the book of Genesis reveals that the only gift that Melchizedek received was the tithe, and this same gift was received by the Levitical priests.  So why would Jesus be different I ask?  So what gifts does Jesus offer today as our Priest if the sacrifice He offered is His blood?  This is the question I want you to provide answers for.

You also try to bring the issue of tithing under the law, but you deliberately forget that tithing predates the law and must of necessity postdate it.  I agree that as Christians we are not under the law, but I do not agree that tithing is subject to the law, though it was brought into it, because the law requires the participation of a priest, and a priest must necessarily offer sacrifice and the gifts.

I rejoice with you about your testimony and it is a great one indeed, but never in my Christian walk  have I exalted an experience, whether good or bad above the word of God.  Let me share with you what I learnt recently listening to a Chris Okotie message from Psalm 138:2  for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.  Personally, I have wondered what this scripture meant but I believe in the understanding that I got from that message.  He said God's name in the Old Testament is revealed only after a manifestation.  For instance people refer to God as Jehovah Jireh when He meets their needs, and they always qualify the Jehovah, based on His manifestation to them at that time.  In other words, God's name is synonymous with manifestation and the word is very clear in that scripture that God's Word must be esteemed above any manifestation that we may experience.  To cut a long story short, the manifestation you experienced is good and noteworthy, but it does not make the Word of God of non-effect.  SELAH!!!

@bari_kade,

And if Hebrews is removed from the Bible, where does that leave us?

Then you are left without the whole counsel of Almighty God.

@TayoD, There is nothing like the book of Hebrew. What is in the scriptures is the Letter of Paul to the Hebrews written to a group of christians who faced with inreasing opposition,they were in danger of abadoning the christian faith. the wrier encourages them with this letter.

I really do not get what you are driving at here. As m4malik has said, you are just bogged down by semantics which is not profitable unto salvation. Everyone knows the Bible was not written down with God's hands. Most of the books were written as letters to men or churches through the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. Others were books of Histroy also inspired by the Holy Ghost. So therefore, you really have no point at all. Everyone who saw my posts knew which book of the Bible I was refering to. Grow up my friend, and stop majoring in the minor and minoring in the major. You never said anything about the topic at hand sef.

@babyosisi,

Perhaps you should go back and read my earlier posts. While you are done with that, please read through the book of Hebrews and discover for yourself the job description of a high Priest.

To make it simple for you, you will discover that a Priest is meant to offer both gifts and sacrifices. So please tell us, what is the sacrificial offering that Jesus as our High Priest is meant to offer, and what is/are the gifts He is meant to offer?

If you can give me a good answer based on the scripture that is different from the tithe, then I will be glad to say you are right and I am wrong. However, I guess you will not have the answer to this and will only side-step this request like others have done, and still maintain your stand about the tithing issue. I have noticed this amongst those of you who claim that the tithe is done away with in the New Testament.

Shalom

@Afam, @Davidylan,

You guys are heating up the polity

@dearzi,

Ope O. Now my little girl has grown up and is starting to earn a living. I guess there's no need to send in your monthly pocket money again abi?

@nilla,

I agree no one is born bad in the sense that you are saying, but people are taught to hate and be prejudice and the tool for doing that in the Arab world is Islam and the Qu'ran. Check these out to see what I mean.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nadFX6T9N4s&mode=related&search=muslim

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr9mH-hPjwU&search=muslim

Can you see now why Isreal considers themselves an endangered species that must fight back in order to stay alive?

@omonozozo,

A say Amen to your prayer!

I have an additional prayer for the terrorists. May they become impotent in their Allah's heaven. May they never have any erection to do anything with that supply of virgins. And may no amount of Viagra help them fulfil the dreams for which they are so quick to shed innocent blood.

Can anybody shout Amen.

@nilla,

No matter how flimsy the reason?

Why the spotlight on Isreal?  Why not include Hezbollah and al-Qaida?  I think your topic already shows a bias and that is very disgusting.