₦airaland Forum

Hey Guys,

Here’s the piece I promised from Chris Okotie’s book, ‘The Last Outcast’. I hope it brings some light into this discussion and a totally new point of view.

“…, At about seven o’clock, each group began to address the Council on its findings. Eight of the ten groups were of the opinion the minister is a representative of God, and since God is a man, it would be against divine revelation to ordain a woman as a church minister. The ninth group, made up of delegates from Africa and Asia, were then called to present their position.

Sam Uyota rose from his seat and approached the podium. There was a short round of applause, which ended when he took the microphone.”

“My Lord and your excellencies. My name is Sam Uyota. I am a delegate from Africa and I have been asked to speak for my group.” There was another short round of applause. “The matter before the Council is a very simple one. The Bible gives us a clear answer to the question we have been asking ourselves all day. I think the issue here is not whether women should be ordained or not but whether God is a man or a woman. Most of the groups have agreed that God is a man. I say also that God is a man.” There was another round of applause. He stood still for a while, not saying anything but just staring into space. There was an uneasy silence. After a while, he continued to speak.

“I say with emphasis however, that God is not male. The concept of manhood was introduced in the Book of Genesis, in the second chapter. Before then, the Lord had said, ‘It is not good that Adam should be alone,’ for so the original language testifies. Most of the bibles in our hands have translated that verse thus, “It is not good that the man should be alone,’ but if it is understood that the word for man, ish, is not found in the Bible until the 22nd verse of the second chapter of the Book of Genesis, then the confusion will disappear immediately. What did God mean when He made that statement?” He paused again for a moment. There was silence in the hall.

“Did He mean that Adam was lonely? We, as bible teachers, know that could not be possible, for Adam was perfectly made. Then what does that statement betoken? Let us translate that statement into the modern way of speaking. This is what God said. ‘It is not good that Adam should be different or separate.’ Different from who? The animals? The birds? The fish? I say no, because there was nothing in the garden that had the same image as him. Who, therefore was he being compared to? The answer becomes clear when we understand that the first Adam was a figure or a type or a shadow of the last Adam who was to come. God was looking at the last Adam. His eyes were on the future. What did He see in the last Adam that the first Adam did not have? He saw that Jesus Christ was going to have a wife.

“A wife that would be a part of Him; who would come out of Him. Jesus Christ would be the head and she would be the body. That is why God took a rib, the token of the covenant, from Adam’s side, and formed Eve from it. The Lord returned Eve to Adam, and a new creation was formed. It was called marriage. Adam called her woman ‘because she was taken out of the man.’ The words man and woman appeared for the first time because of marriage. A woman, biblically speaking, represents the part, while the man represents the whole. God is the whole and all creation is the part. That is why God is called a man. Jesus Christ is called a man and the Church a woman, though it is made up of male and female members. The reason is that Jesus Christ is the whole and we are the part. For in Him we live and move and have our being.

Therefore, if we say that we will not ordain women because God is a man we will be guilty of blasphemy. What we are saying, in effect, is that God is male. For if we ordain males and reject females, are we not in great danger of blasphemy?” He stopped and looked in the direction of the trustees.

“My lords and excellencies, if we reject female ministers, we must also reject male ministers and ordain only married male ministers. For it is the married male who is called a man. I urge you to prayerfully consider what I have said.” He walked away from the microphone and off the podium. There was no applause!, "

I hope you giuys get the gist of what is written above. I might try to explain more if the confusion continues, but I think the explanation given above is exhaustive enough.

I'm waiting.

"Thus, my next two posts are just there to clarify my position and to explain why anti-semitism does have new testamentic roots, "

nfern,

How can you claim that anti-semitism has a new testament root when we see clearly  from the Old Testament that it existed as far back as the days of Esther the Queen and Modecai her uncle. You'll get the details in the Book of Esther.

If not for God's intervention, the Jewish people would have been wiped out by then.  The anti-semitist spirit at work in those days was the same at work in Hitler, and it is the same one still at work today.

From a spiritual point of view, the Jews are very necessary in God's plan for the birth and the final  establishment of Christ's earthly kingdom on earth (first and second coming respectively).  With this insight, I believe the spirit of anti-semitism is actually the spirit of the Anti-Christ, because the ultimate goal is to resist Christ and the fulfillment of prophecy.

Hey Guys,

Pick up Chris Okotie's book: 'The Last Outcast'. He discussed this issue in it. If y'all r interested, I can try type out those few pages and post it in here.

Cheers

I knew I was gonna provoke a new discussion by questioning the salvation claim of my2cents.

My2cents,

Common, I don't think there's anyone here crucifying you. We know you won't rise from the dead the third day if we do .

Anyway to be serious, this is what I believe we are all trying to do in this forum: 1 Peter 3:15 says "But in you hearts set Christ apart as holy (and acknowledge Him) as Lord. Always be ready to give a logical defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope that is in you, but do it courteously and respectfully." (Amplified Bible).

I respect your opinion and it helps me to think about my faith as well.

By the way, is it baptism that makes you a Christian or faith in Jesus and making Him your Lord and Savior?

My2cents,

I will like to give you a scenario in answer to your curiosity about the date chosen for Christmas celebrations and Sunday worship.  In Nigeria today, I know that muslims now have Friday night vigils and Sunday meetings because of their desire to keep thier brethren from going to church.  This action doesn't mean they now worship Jehovah, rather, it is an effort to occupy the time of their faithfuls, who they consider in danger of going to church and getting saved, thereby negleting their faith.  Such deductive reasoning could well be extended to Christians.  Maybe a similar situation existed in the early church and having meetings on the same day as the others could have been seen as one way of keeping some weak christians from idol worship.

From all indication however, I believe sunday was chosen for Christian worship because Our Savior rose up from the grave on a Sunday.  As Paul said, our faith is in vain without the Resurrection of Jesus.  It follows then that we should worship Him on the day when our Faith was sealed.

The issue of Jesus being white or black is so trivial and unimportant that I don't even want to give it a reply.  White or black, yellow or green, it doesn't matter.  What matters is His blood that was shed.  Remission of sins is through the blood.  And in any case, have you noticed the colour of the blood of all races is RED?

Technical or not, celebrating His birth does not take anything away from Christianity.  We know that Angels were seen rejoicing on the day He was born.  And besides, I've never known anyone that complained of the Rice and Food Very Plenty that is available on Christams celebrations.  If you think about what it involved and how long it took for Jesus to come in the flesh, then you will know that the day is also worth celebrating.  The first prophecy of Jesus' birth came in Genesis and see how long it took for that Word to become Flesh.  Men of God had to keep saying it in prophecy over the years till the WORD fulfilled what God said, that it will never return to Him void.

Likewise today, we keep saying He is coming back a second time, and though He tarries, He will yet show up.  As said in the book of revelation "The Spirit and the Bride say COME".  Come O Lord Jesus.

Differences And Similarities Between Christianity And Islam

I was just curious to know why some people generally regard the Christian God and the Islam Allah to be the one and same God. At the same time, a lot of people believe these are two different Beings.

What are the differences and similarities between the two greatest religion? Can they ever be harmonised? or are they two opposite ends of a continuum?

Now this is not to bring about acusations and counter-accusations, but I will like to see possibly, quotes from each book comparing the similarities and the differences.

nferyn,
The book of Mark was written by a young protege of Simon Peter called Mark.  The fact that the book was written a generation or so after Jesus does not make it less authoritative because the information were very likely passed down to him through apostle Peter.  Besides, you neglect the revelation of the Holy spirit to each of these Writers.  Apostle Paul in 1 corinthians wrote about the Last super though he was not present there.  This should tell you that there is only One Author really - The Holy spirit.

The Books of matthew and John were written by the Disciples themselves.  Matthew was a former tax collector turned Disciple, and John was the oldest living of all these disciples and he is also the Author of the Book of Revelation.  He could well have been alive even later than 70AD as he was siad to have lived very long.

The Book of Luke was written by a Physician named Luke.  he was very likely a Gentile, and he is also the author of the book of Acts.  This means He lived during the times of Jesus and was around for a considerable length of time after Jesus Ascension.

I believe you are insecere by insinuating that the other Gospels were copied off the book of Mark.  The Authors are different individuals looking at the same events from different perspectives.  I would have been more sceptical of the Gospels if all the accounts were exactly the same. 

The book of Matthew seem to have been targeted more at the Jews as the Book of Luke seems to the Gentiles.  But in all, lie the truth of the events.

Why do you think the dead sea scrolls provide more accuracy than the New Testament as we know it?  Why not the other way round?  You've made up your mind that the Bible is all false, and any information that comes your way that provides some information that supports your prejudice must then be the truth by your standard.

There is nothing wrong with using the Bible to prove it's veracity. The Bible was not written by one author at one sitting in one fell swoop. Rather, it is a compilation of various writings from different authors, independently over time. These writings are complimentary of each other though they were not planned.

It appears to me that you seek a God that is intellectually acceptable to you. That is not new. Paul said the Gentiles always seek for Wisdom, while the Jews seek a sign, but Christ is the Wisdom and the Power of God. Your journey ends up in Him, no matter how much you may want to even deny His existence.

Owo,
What I am trying to accomplish here is what 2Cor5:11 says "It is because we know this solemn fear of the Lord that we work so hard to persuade others, "
Some on this forum are genuine seekers, and they could get some answers. Others will never be convinced even if God comes back in the flesh before their eyes. My persuasion is to help the former that may be in our midst.
Paul reasoned in the synagogues regularly, and we are told of others in Acts who do the same.
While the scripture you mention in Acts is true, I don't think it applies to this case.

nferyn,

I am not just talking about the Gospels, I am talking also of the Epistles. All come together in harmaony.

nferyn,

The yardstick is very simple.  At least, there were 11 disciples still alive after Jesus resurrected.  These were men of integrity whose word was their bond and who will die for what they believe in and witnessed.  Though they all wrote from different perspectives, their writings complement each other and were not contradictory.

God brought another man on the scene by the name of Apostle Paul who was gifted with more insight than others.  Apostle Peter witnesed to the veractiy of his write-up in 2 Peter 3:16 "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

The Gnostics are diametrically opposed to the writings and witness of all these credible men.  Besides, the book of Colossians was basically targeted at Gnostism, and other Epistles testify to the fact that there exists other books and other sects who were trying to deceive people by the use of Christian terminologies and by their proximity with Christians.

Zahymaka,

You don't need to feel sorry. You cut across to me as someone who yearns for accuracy, and who knows, you might get some answers here.

Let me try to answer your question this way. Daniel 4:17 says that God rules in the affairs of men. If indeed He does, don't you think He will be mindful to put His word together through human vessels. God has never done anything on earth without the use of men. To redeem us, He even became a man.

The point is this, the Bible was not just a compilation done by one man or a group of men without God's intervention. I believe His hand was working in the background to ensure that His word was compiled as he deems fit.

Zahymaka,

Don't you think you conflict yourself when you claim to be a Christian but you don't believe the Bible in it's entirety?  What makes you a Christian, I ask?  Do you think Christianity is an association that you can choose to belong to like the Rotary Club because you like the good works that are being done there?  Christianity means you believe in Jesus as who He says He is - God's Son and God's Word, and you make Him you Lord and Savior because you believe that He died for your sins and God raised Him up on the third day in justification.  Chikena.

About your researches.  Do you know the Bible talks about those who are ever learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth?  It's not how much you know, but who you know, my friend.  And let me tell you the difference between the Books of the Bible and the others you are talking about, the Bible claims that ALL scripture is inspired of God.  In order words, God in His soveriengty knows the books He has authored, and He has the power and influence to put them in a compendium that we call the Holy Bible.

You are wrong when you consider the Bible as one book.  It is a compendium of several books written over many years.  The Bible says in the mouth of two or threee witnesses, let every word be established.  There are dozens of authors with dozens of books within the Bible, and the Bible is a proof of itself.

Now while other books you mentioned or have read may have been written by Christians, they were not divinely inspired for God to have them put together in the Holy Bible.

Forget about a day being celebrated even before the advent of Christianity. All days were created by our Lord, and no devil has any right over a day more than we do.  The Bible says if we regard a day, it is unto the Lord that we do, not unto those idols. 

'This is my blood, ' that you quoted were Jesus' words.  Are you saying He copied over from pagan religions that he tried to stamp out?  The issue here is that Jesus was trying to convey to His Disciples that He was entering into a blood covenant with them.  Those are covenant terms my friend.  He said things to them in the way that they will understand.  God only deals with us in ways that we will understand, or else there will be no point of Him communicating with us at all. 

I pray your eyes will be opened, and you will come to the end of your research by coming to Jesus. As the Apostle Paul said, "Christ is the end of the law, "

I am always amused by the efforts been put into discrediting the Bible.  The so-called "Gospel of Judas" (which is really no Gospel at all) is the latest in a long line of ineffective and worthless quest at disproving the veracity of the Holy Scriptures.
To me, the Gospel of Judas is nothing more than another Davinci Code written a few centuries earlier - an absolute work of fiction.  It shows that efforts to ridicule the Bible did not start today, and that effort will never end.  I will admonish all who take up this futile adventure to spend more time trying to reflect on the words spoken by Jesus as revealed in the Bible.  His light is sure to provide enlightenment to you as it does to millions today.

Hey Chill,

Unfortunately, prayer requires more than a few recital for it to be answered. While I can't exhaust all the elements here, the follwing are absolutely required.
1. You must be in good standing with God. You refered to God as a Father, are you His son? Are you born of Him?
2. Faith is required. Without faith it is impossible to please God.
3. Obedience to God's Word is a key. For instance, your prayer asks God to open unto you the windows of Heaven. THe Bible already listed the requirement for that to happen in malachi 3. Pay your tithe, and you will have the floodgates of heaven opend automatically. No amount of prayer will open the gates if you dont pay your tithe.
4. Forgiveness. If you are unforgiving towards othere, you are wasting your time in prayer.

I hope this is instructive

I wonder if anyone out there has seen the documentary about the Gospel of Judas.  The parchments were said to have been found in Egypt some years back, and it is allegedly written by Judas Iscariot himself.  The story line paints Judas as the closest to Jesus and the bravest of all the Disciples.  He was said to have obeyed Jesus' direct instructions to betray him.  While these are direct contradictions to the other Gospels, the general secular world is trying to paint it as another cover-up by christians and as another inconsistency they see in the Christian religion. 
Let's have a lively, courteous and balanced discussions on this.

Is science everything? I'm convinced by faith and experience that God exists. And science? Well, it believes in cause and effects. The effect is creation, and the cause - evolution or God. Science hasn't proved conclusively either way.

Hi Nferyn,

You need to understand that life is not all about logic where 1 + 1 =2. There is an element of faith to our existence, and ignoring it is ignoring a vital aspect of what makes us humans. As logical as you would like to believe you are, faith has come into play in your life several times today. Think about it, and you will see how true that statement is.
However, consider what Ecclesiates 3:11 says "He hath made all things good in their time, and hath delivered the world to their consideration, so that man cannot find out the work which God hath made from the beginning to the end." (Douay-Rheims Bible). What makes you think you can fathom the infinite with your finite mind and understanding?
However, God has been so gracious to leave evidences of Himself all around. See Psalms 19:1-4 "1 The heavens shew forth the glory of God, and the firmament declareth the work of his hands. 2 Day to day uttereth speech, and night to night sheweth knowledge. 3 There are no speeches nor languages, where their voices are not heard. 4 Their sound hath gone forth into all the earth: and their words unto the ends of the world.
You need evidence? Let me give it to you in reverse. For instance, imagine someone saying to you that a piece of machinery, let's say a laptop, came into being by evolution. Among other things, I can imagine you thinking that person must be nuts. Why? Because you know for sure that it is not possible. Yet you want to think that this massive universe, that works so perfectly like a single unit is a creation of chance. Believe me, it takes more faith to believe that, than it takes to believe that there is a Creator.
Because you can't see God does not mean He does not exist.
I want to challenge you to prove to me also that there is no God. At least, in my engineering classes, one of the ways we've proved or disprove some equations is to confirm that the results is the opposite or otherwise of the conclusion.

El-Baron,

It is obvious that you consider evolution more realistic than the Bible because you can't reconcile what you deem as fact, with what you think the Bible says. The Bible is very apt when it says "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge". You lack knowledge of the Bible's teachings, and I believe most Christians are in the dark as you are, and can not therefore prove that most of the assertions you made are actually Bible facts. I'll begin from the very beginning.

The Bible did not teach that the world was created 10,000 years ago. It teaches that Man (Adam's race) was created about 6,000 years ago to be exact. The creation story you read in Genesis is actually a re-creation. Evidence exists from the Bible that there was another civilization on earth that was wiped out before man came into being. God did not create the earth to be without form and void, the earth became without form and void from the activities of the inhabitants of the earth before man came into the picture. Evidence of this can be found in the Books of Genesis, Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Job to name a few. If you are interested, I could get to the nitty gritty and give you Bible chapters and verses to support this fact.

Talking about the Universe, have you read what the Bible says about how the galaxy works especially the sun?. Go read Psalms 19 and find out that the Bible talks about the sun going around in its orbit. Up until few years ago, scientists thought the sun was stationary, the Bible said otherwise thousands of years ago. The so-called scientific knowledge that we now have was predicted by the Bible, but we don't understand what the Bible says fully, and we go ahead condemning it.

I'm of the firm belief that while the study of evolution persists, it will eventually come to the conclusion that there must be a Creator somewhere. I believe that science will eventually catch up with the knowledge that the Bible professes, and the conclusion will be that there is a God after all. The Bible has stated the end, while science is just starting the race towards the end.

In coclusion, I remember what Paul the Apostle said: "He that thinks he knows does not know yet as he ought to know". This is science for you. It may be an embodiment of knowledge, but it does not know all as yet.

I believe all Nigeria needs is a sincere Leader who is brave and God-fearing. The God-fearing part is very important because it takes a man who feels that he is accountable to someone higher up, to sit up and get the proper job done. the leadership skill of Okotie can not be put to question at all. While I agree that the Army teaches its Oficers leadership skills, this is nothing compared to that underwent by a Clergy. A man of God is taught leadership that encompasses, spiritual, physical, emotional, economical and every facets of human life that you can imagine. If you are in a church under a Pastor, you will know what I'm talking about. A Pastor not only prays with you, he cries with you, he stays up at night seeking God's face for you, he teaches you what you need to know and he is patient with you.
These qualities are what we need in a Leader today, and I believe Okotie posseses them in increasing measure. And by the way, can you give us alternatives? Gani has given up, Soyinka won't run, others are scared. This is a brave man, and we should be brave and give him our vote, that's the least we can do.