₦airaland Forum

dearzi,

There is nothing a man has, that is not a gift from heaven.  There's no need for any offence anywhere.  If he has a gif of teaching, it is as God has pleased to gift to every man withal.  Do you realise that working of miracles is a gift of the Spirit?  This does not mean that faith in the Word will not produce miracles, but the dimension that we see in the Book of Acts goes into the category of the Gifts of the Spirit, and the Gifts of the Spirit are not based on a Man of God's faith, it is based on the will of the Spirit of God in His manifestations.

What are the elementary principles of the doctrines of faith?  Hebrews 6:1-3:  1Therefore leaving the principles  of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit.  What we talked about isn't anywhere near the principles of the doctrines of Christ.

What do you mean by REM cycles?  I really don't understand your slang.  Please do not labour yourself to hear a word from God that He is not ready to to tell you about.  There is enough in the Bible that you know, go live by that then He talks to you after your obedience to the once He's already revealed. 

You seem to doubt that Okotie is even called of God.  You have no idea who he is and what he stands for.  I think you are only just upset because he stood up against your Pastor's relationship with T.B. Joshua.  I have told you before you condemn him on that act, maybe you should go find out about T.B. Joshua and make your judgements if he is of God.  Here are a few links for you: http://www.charismamag.com/articleDisplay.php?ArticleID=5417   http://www.charismamag.com/articleDisplay.php?ArticleID=6733; http://www.themaninthesynagogue.org/index.htm

I still stand by my saying that he is a "teacher of Teachers."  I believe I am well read and very knowledgable in the scriptures.  I have listened to a lot of people and I study this Bible for myself.  I have no doubt about other people's calling, but I know the gifts that each man has received, and I look at each within the confines of the Word of God. The central teaching of the Bible is Jesus Christ, and no one teaches Him as much as Okotie does. As 'spiritual' as it sounds, the Bible is not about God the Father even the Holy Spirit or the church of Christ. From the beginning to the end, the focus is on Christ. You may preach good, and sound good and do all manner of miracles, but if the beginning, body and end of your message does not focus on Christ, you have only succeeded in making noise.

The fruits of Okotie's Ministry are many, and I am one of them.  I've been so blessed by him in every way you can think about, and I thank God for His life.

In simplicity, sin is what brought about the physical and spiritual death in the world today. Adam died spiritually as soon as he sinned in the garden and his fellowship with God was broken. He died physically about 900 years later.

This sin nature was passed down to every man born of woman because the seed of a man (the sperm) is involded in the birth process. That is why we all die today. This should tell you that the only reason why Jesus was to be born by a virgin was so the sin nature could be avoided. Had a man being involved in His birth, He would have been sinful. Remember in the Book of Genesis, the Bible said it is the 'seed of the woman' that will crush the serpent's head.

If you are trying to say that every sin is atoned for by the sinner's death, then every lie must also be followed by hanging as there is no small sin before God.

ajia23,

I agree with you in principle that it takes blood to atone for sins as described in the Book of Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. But how can Judas atone for his sins with his sinful blood? The reason why Jesus had to come die for us was because His blood is holy, and a sacrifice of holy blood once and for all meets God's requirements for the sins of mankind. Think of it, if it takes the blood of any sinner to atone for sins, don't you think Adam would have sacrificed himself for his generation?

Judas' death is no more than suicide, and Jesus said in Matthew 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

mamput,

Those are your views.  no one has said anything to you here outside of the Bible.  perhaps, you should interprete what has been said has God's view of your stand and not what another man thinks.  On the other hand, your views are nor\t correlated by the scriptures, and I am left with no choice than to say you speak for yourself.

Perhaps, you want us to be politically correct and say that you are right, when the scriptures say otherwise.  I choose to stand by what the Bible says.  I'm sorry if anyone has offended you, but the truth can be very offensive too.  Jesus who is the truth, was so offensive to the people of His days that they killed Him.  I am not surprised by the secular stand of today.

this law goes for Christians only and not all. Dont they say Jesus is love. If jesus is love then if it is as you say he will not turn his back on so many. As for that confession ho yes don't make me laugh. (I will do this and this and on sunday i will confess god will forgive me once more over and over again) Is that not the way most people think .?

It seems to me you dont even believe the Bible at all. Why then do you classify yourself a Christian? If you think God's Word does not mean anything, why are you so quick to associate yourself with the faith? The WORD became flesh is what the Bible says, and that means Jesus is a totally of the Word of God which we find in the Bible. Not taking His word seriously is the same as not taking Him seriously.
That God is love does not mean he wont turn you to hell if you reject the costly salvation He provided in Christ. You see, God's mercy only comes after His claims of Justice has being met. Ro 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Note the Bible says in that verse that God needed to be just before He can become a justifier by forgiving you your sins.
So how do you receive forgiveness if you dont confess them? The Bible says your words will either justif you or condemn you. You have no idea what importance God places on words. I find it hard to even begin to tell you the basis of all these from the scriptures since you do not hold it in high esteem anyway. I wish you will take His word more seriously as it contains the foundation of the Christian faith.
The psalms you talked about says this: Ps 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my pathpsalm 119:89 For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.

Mamaput,

I appreciate your sincerity more than you can ever know.  No doubt there are a lot of people who do not practice what they believe.  That is a situation that God is aware of and that is why we have 1 John 1:8-10 to fall back upon: 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
However, never let your focus be on people, not any Pastor or the Pope, because they will fail you.  Your focus should be on Jesus Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
You will never be a better Christian if your focus is on others or even yourself and not on Jesus.  Faith is not something "out there" that is unattainable, rather Jesus said if you have faith as small as a mustard seed.  All He requires is to put your complete faith and trust in Him.  leave Him to do the rest.  The challenge is on Jesus to prove Himself to you once you put your complete faith in Him.
When you study who He is, then you'll find out He said in John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me..  This will let you understand the gravity jesus placed on the practitioners and apostles of other false religion as stated in John 10:1 -
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
You have to come to a point where you Jesus becomes ALL or NOTHING to you.  he does not really seek a 'middle ground'.

The Old Testaments was written in Hebrew, and Aramaic, while the new Testament was written in Greek.  Remeber the Davinci code is only a fiction.  You are yet to understand your Bible and you think the Davinci code will help?  I can see you are not strong in your faith, but anyway, I will suggest you take the Bible more seriously and do an in-depth study with the aid of tools that are helpful. Hear what Jesus has to say about the scriptures and your life: John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Peter was a fisher his brother too .Ok the tax collector could read but he only wrote the book of Matthew. you want to tell be they all learned  how to read and write. I think maybe jesus leard to read and write in Egypt do not forget the missing years.

Whether they could read or write doesn't make any difference.  You can not prove either way from the Bible, but they are indeed the author of several letters of the new Testament.
I think you are stretching it a little bit by suggesting that Jesus learned to read in Egypt.  You know He went there as a baby and we know He was back in His native country at the age of twelve.  We dont know exactly how many years he was in Egypt, but all the same, He wan't considered someone of extraordinary learning as Paul was for instance.

Mamaput,

Is peter not the first head of the church the rock.
What about all the talk of what is bound on eath will be bound in heaven??
were priests not getting married be 4 who told them to stop

Is it not ironic that you do not take the Bible as the final authority, yet you base your beliefs of peter being the foundation of the church from itscontents?  Anyway, to answer your question.  I personally do not believe that Jesus was making Peter the foundation of His church,, rather, it was Peter's confessions that Jesus was refering to.   Mt 16:18 - And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it..  If you have a study Bible, you will find out that the Greek word for Peter is PETROS and it means a stone, however the Rock Jesus said He will build His church on is the Greek Word PETRA which means a solid rock.  This tells you that Jesus was talking about 2 differnt things.  
You can go search for a study bible to find this out yourself.  There are many instances shown from the scriptures also to suggests that Peter was not the most important member of the Apostles.  if you sincerely want more proofs, I can give them to you, though this is not the forum for that.

Mamaput,
Dont put words into our mouth.  No one is suggesting anything about the Popes and Bishops.  That will be a discussion for another thread.

mamaput,

Do not forget there are also the laws of the church.
Were is it written that the only true book is the bible.
The bible was written by men.
Do you know that the 12 apostles were illiterates, They no go school.
That means someone wrote for them ,they went to writers.
The bible is edited  . I do not want to know how many books are still hidden from us.
Life is more than only a bible.

The laws of the church is not binding on the Believer.  The only binding document we have is the Bible.  When the church doctrine and laws are contrary to the Word of God, guess which one should be forfeited.   Anyway, the church makes laws for administrative reasons and no church claims any spiritual advantage of one Believer over another who does not visit jerusalem.  it is just one of those things.
the Bible validates itself in more ways than one.  Dont forget that it is a compilation of dozens of author over a period of hundreds of years, yet their writings are complimentary of each other.  The Bible is inspired of God, is what the Bible testifies of itself.  It says men of God wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
You are wrong about the 12 Apostles being illiterate.  Not that this makes any difference whatsoever.  I should bring to your remebrance that Matthew was a tax collector who worked for the Governement in his days.  he couln't have been illiterate.  Imagine a Government accountant or auditor who can't read or write.  That is so absurd.  Can you remember also that the Book of Revelation was written by John the Beloved when he was in isolation on the Island of Patmos?  How could he have written those revelations down if he could not read or write.
As a matter of generality however, the Bible declared a lot of the Disciples to be unlearned.  This is different from illiteracy.  Jesus was known to be unlearned, yet we saw Him in the synagogues reading from the book of isaiah.  just thoughts for you to ponder upon.

Mamput,

Thanks for the points you made, but indeed you made some of them in ignorance (this is not being rude.)  I'll tackle them one at a time

Both have Abraham as their father

This is quite true to the extent that Abraham is the father of the Jews, that means Jesus (in His humanity) included; and also Mohammed being an Arab who descends from Ishameal whom the Bible declares will be a violent man as said in Genesis 16:10-14
10 The angel added, "I will so increase your descendants that they will be too numerous to count." 11 The angel of the Lord also said to her: "You are now with child and you will have a son. You shall name him Ishmael, for the Lord has heard of your misery. 12 He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers." 13 She gave this name to the Lord who spoke to her: "You are the God who sees me," for she said, "I have now seen the One who sees me." 14 That is why the well was called Beer Lahai Roi; it is still there, between Kadesh and Bered.[/color][color=#990000][color=#990000][/color]

Both go on pilgrimage mecca and Jerusalem.

This is not entirely true in the case of the christian as stated earlier by davidylan.  Christians are not required to visit Jerusalem, but are rather told to pray for it.  For Islam however, visiting mecca is one of the five pillars of their faith.  Every Moslem strives to fulfil these five requirements and visiting mecca is no exception.  The Christians only tenet is faith in the salvation work of Our Lord jesus Christ.

Both believe in one God

this is absolutely true, but we still need to point out that the one God we believe in are two different Beings.  Jehovah is not the same God as Allah.  Their personalities and statements over the years as written down in the Bible and Qu'ran proves without a doubt that they can never be the same Being.

Both have gone on crusades jihad.

This also is quite true within the context of history and our present everyday life.  However, you need to understand that while Jesus and His Apostles denounced every form of violence and all but John the Beloved died in the hands of men contrary to them, Islam on the other hand glorifies and encourages Jihad with reward in the after life for those who are killed during the Jihad.  Mohammed led by example in this regards also.

Talking about the glorified body that we shall have, this differs certainly from the teachings of Islam where those in Allah's heaven are still subject to sexual feelings and will have plenty of harems to satisfy that sexual urge.  By the way, Islam teaches that those who kill converts to christianity from Islam will be rewarded with a BLONDE Harem.  The sexual orgy just continues.
You know what Jesus said about this line of thought?  He calls it Blasphemy.  Matthew 22: 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

But I can tell you the disciples were shocked to see Jesus in person after he was taught to be dead- even the bible reports this. If you say Jesus resurrected, did he do so in body or spirit? If it's in body, that is totally impossible, especially as his body will not be suitable for him to use again with all that sin on his back. But if it was in spirit, then I will invite archaelogists to start digging for his remains, may be we can get a DNA test that will finally solve the puzzle.

You are delving into issues you have absolutely no knowledge about.  The Disciples of course were shocked because they did not understand that Jesus was predestined to die and rise up on the third day.  I am at least glad you acknowledge that they saw him after the crucifixion.  From the Bible, at least 500 people saw Him after He ressurrected.  As to whether He rose up in body or spirit, the answer is very clear from the scriptures: [b]Luke 24:[/b] 36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? 42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them. 44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things. 49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
And if you doubt that it was the Jesus that was crucified, here are some proofs for you: John 20: 26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

What you said defeats logic. Why would a just God sacrifice his son for you? I mean kill someone without sin for a sinless person, doesn't that just  give you a sense of nostalgia? I mean in Naija, a poor innocent man is killed for a rich guilty one by the law. Is this what you say God is doing?

You will find this answer in Romans 5: 6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time 6 Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.  If you desire to know more the reason why the innocent blood of Jesus had to be shed, please go and read the Book of Hebrews.  time and space will not permit me to explain it in detail to you.  If you are interested, I'll be ready to answer any questions you may have from your study.

However the Islamic position that Judas was mistaken for Jesus and crucified instead is more plausible. Aftreall Judas betrayed him according to the Bible, so it was akin to atoning for his sins. Also, historically, nothing was said about where Judas was buried after his 'suicide'in the bible.

That is exactly my point.  Muhammad only borrowed from the Bible what he liked and made up his own stories to fill in the things that were not intellectually appealing to him.  You have to read the Bible and find out what it says about Judas.  His end and burial place was clearly stated in the Bible.  Matthew 27: 1 When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death: 2 And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor. 3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, 4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. 5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. 6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood. 7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in. 8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day. 9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom F52 they of the children of Israel did value; 10 And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me. Acts 1: 15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) 16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. 17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. 18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. 19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood. 20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.So you see how wrong you and the Qu'ran is.  From that nrrative, it is clear that Judas died ahead of Jesus crucifixion.  Also, the place he was buried was a very well known place in Jerusalem and its history was known by all.

I'll continue.

Thanks mlks_baby for that piece. I was kinda too busy to lay out my rejoinder the way you did, but you essentially expressed my thoughts.
However, I am also waiting to read what you have to say about Jesus crucifixion in the Qu'ran. All I know is that the Qu'ran states that Jesus was substituted on the cross with someone else (sounds like another Davinci code). Nevertheless, this shows how near, yet far away Islam is from the truth. There was substitution on the cross quite alright. Christ was substituted for me. I deserve to hang on that tree for falling short of God's righteousness, but Christ stood in my place.
He paid a debt He did not owe, I owed the debt and I could not pay. I needed someone to take my sins away; now I can sing a brand new song, amazing grace, Lord Jesus paid the debts that I could never pay. Hallelluyah!! Shout Amen somebody! I think I'm gonna have church right here and now.

First Jesus did not say he is the Son of God, neither in the Bible nor in the Quran.

John 10: 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
Matthew 26: 63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. 64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. 65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy. 66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death. 67 Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands,
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Muslims do not kill adherents of other religion, rather muslims stand up to the oppressors.

You make me laugh in 7 different nigerian languages. I am beginning to think your problem goes beyond unbelief and ignorance to blindness. What do we see all over the world, and in Nigeria if we want to be closer to home?

It matters for the christians to know that the Quran is unadulterated because at least they have through it an opportunity to know Jesus Christ better.

In fact Quran was revealed to correct all those errors. You would agree with me the Authentic teachings of Jesus was not called a Bible in his presence and not compiled into a book. We can only appreciate the efforts of the compilers and at the ame time correct their errors.

I don't actually believe the Qu'ran is unadulterated, but if it is, is is actually an unadulterated lie. The Qu'ran wan't even compiled till years after Mohammed died. Yet you guys want us and give us a different impression. According to you guys, Mohammed was not even literate, so how did he proof-read to make sure what he said is what was written down?

The nature of a well balanced man is to enjoy peace, no wonder God himself named the balanced path Islam, which means Peace.

I don't agree that Islam means peace. The world has never known peace since the advent of this religion. besides, if you are talking about peace, Jesus is said in the scriptures to be the Prince of Peace.
You guys are just blabbing without coherent proofs of all you say. I hope the scriptures I quoted above will make you see the fallacy of your statement earlier. If you want more quotes from Jesus, I'll gladly give them to you.

What a load of crap coming from these confused moslems.  Muhammad's confusion about Christianity has snow-balled into a large edifice that has completely blinded the adherents of Islam to the truth.

Reading what is supposed to be an argument set forth by the originator of this post brings into perspective Muhammad's lack of understanding of the Christian faith, and consequently, his zeal to set up a faith that is intellectually acceptable to him.

Go back and do your home work properly guys.  When you have a point, then let us know about it, but so far, all I see here is balderdash.

Nuru,

What you fail to realise is that Christians believe in One true God who has CHOSEN to manifest Himself in a Person called Jesus Christ. The Bible says "The WORD became flesh and dwelt amongst us, and we beheld His glory as the only begotten of the Father." You limit God when you say He cannot choose to be what He wants to be. Afterall, we are created in His image after His likeness.

So is anyone who believes in one God a candidate of heaven? There are a lot of religion that believes in one God, but there is only one that provides the way of salvaion: Christianity.

Bottom line is this. You can not claim that the oneness of God is a diference between the two religion, rather it is a similarity. The only diference is that while Christianity proclaims that God has manifested Himself in the flesh, Islam claims otherwise.

Nuru,
Your denouncing of Christianity is totally contrary to the Qu'ran quoted below. Mohammed obviously thought here that Christianity is a product of God, and so Christians will be rewarded as serving God. The principle of the trinity has been around since the founding of Christianity, and you can never separate the religion from this teaching at any time in history. At the same time, what you need to understand is that Christianity teaches that this trinity is also ONE Being who is know as GOD.
See Surah 002.062 YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Nuru,

You have not even remotely said anything related to the topic of this thread. If you are planning to preach, please do so on a relevant forum. Quoting the Bible and preaching Islam makes you appear like a white man dancing to the tunes of fuji (absurd, right?!!!). Anyway, let's get back to the issue at hand. We are waiting.

Thanks for the compliment allonym. It is well appreciated.

Is Jesus equal to or lesser than?
JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one.

JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Which first--beasts or man?
GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
How many stalls and horsemen?
KI1 4:26 And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.

CH2 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.

Is it folly to be wise or not?
PRO 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

ECC 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

1 Cor.1:19: "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and wil bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."

OlaAjia,

I understood early in my Christian years when I used to argue with some moslem friends that the validity of Islam or any religion that calims monotheism whatsoever can only start to be established if Christianity and Judaism were really corrupted.  This knowledge has led some moslems to do every thing they can to demonise the two inter-woven religion (for indeed, Judaism is the school master that taught and led us to Christianity.  However, Judaism in its essence will still be practiced after the Church is raptured into heaven.  Anyway, I digress).  Think of it my man, do you think there really would be need for Mohammed after the birth of Christianity?  I don't think so.  No wonder your Prophet and others tried to build a foundation for themselves by claiming that Christianity was corrupt.  And many times, he contradicted himself about this anyway.

Going to the matters you raised.  Indeed, Jesus Christ and His Father are one and the self same Spirit.  The Father being greater than Him is only an acknowledgement that He submits to the authority of the Father.  For instance, in a marital set-up, the man is not more of a human beign than the woman, but because the man is in authority, the man is considered to be greater.  The woman might even be smarter, more educated and enlightened, but authority puts him in a position of greater honour than the woman.  This is very much like what the God-head is all about.  The Son is no less God than the Father, but the Father is in authority, and they are One and the self-same Spirit.

You need to learn to read very well.  The beast was clearly made before the man.  The entire creation was carried out in Genesis chapter one, and there the Bible also said God rested on the 7th day.  You incorrectly assume, or perhaps intentionally trying to mislead others by alluding that the account you write about is in chronological order.  The Bible's account about God bringing the animals to Adam to name them, is something that obviously happened before the creation of Eve (There are a lot of spiritual reasons for this, but I cant explain that on this forum).  I think you should just go back and read the whole thing and get your facts right.  The entire order of creation is this:  God created heavens and the earth, the trees, animals, and created the male Adam on the sixth day.  On that sixth day, he also broguht the animals to the male Adam to name them after which he created the female Adam on the same sixth day.  Chikena.

About Solomon's stalls and horsemen, I thought I should just bring to your attention, WES's commentary on this.  If you still don't understand, then I can explain further if need be: "1 Kings 4:26 Forty thousand - In 2 Chronicles 9:25, it is but four thousand. But it is not exactly the same Hebrew word which is here and there, though we translate both stalls; and therefore there may well be allowed some difference in the signification, the one signifying property stables, of which there were four thousand, the other stalls or partitions for each horse, which were forty thousand. Chariots - Both for his military chariots, which seem to be those fourteen hundred, chap.10:26, and for divers other uses, as about his great andvarious buildings, and merchandises, and other occasions, which might require some thousands of other chariots. Horsemen - Appointed partly for the defence of his people in peace; and partly for attendance upon his person, and for the splendor of his government."

Obviously, you need some wisdom to understand what the whole discussion is about it.  God is not against wisdom, infact, the Bible teaches that to us who believe, "Christ the wisdom and power of God."  However, there is a wordly wisdom which does not profit in the long run and which many times sets itself contrary against the knowledge of God.  This is the wisdom that does not profit that the Bible teaches we should be aware of.  If you follow Solomon's discuss and meditations in the later part of his years as brought to us in the Book of Ecclesiates, he clearly painted a picture of himself as one who has searched and studied and applied himself to everything incluing wordly wisdom and godliness.  In the end, he said the conlusion of the whole matter is this: "Fear God and obey His commands, "  In other words, there is no wisdom you can get that can be impressive to God, 'cos the Bible says "God's foolishness is greater than the wisdom of man".  And worldly wisdom will never bring godliness and is only profitable in this life and not in the life to come.    A lot of our Professors today are not the most spiritual, in order words, the wisdom of this world that they've acquired has not helped them one bit to be closer to God.  The Bible is not agnst wisdom and knowledge at all.  It emphasises it, but said we should not esteem all those above the fear of God and the acquring of the true wisdom of all: Christ Jesus.

Are we to write your assignments for you? You are trying to take the easy way out by just asking people give you their thoughts. That is not academic at all. To make this an academic exercise, you should at least come up with well thought out questions just like coming up with questionnaires. Engage us with your thoughts and ideas like a conversation then you will begin to get answers.

Nigeria's greatest contribution to the world over today is something phenomenal.  It is popular all over and well known in the very corridors of power and the slums of all nations. Nigeria has made a 'number' very popular and the number is nothing but "419"..  Check this out! http://home.rica.net/alphae/419coal/, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance_fee_fraud

Yes u can be a pastor and be a banker.

I was just curios! Why banking?!!!

Personally, I see nothing wrong with any group of people protesting over a perceived wrong. Muslims and Christians alike have a right to air their grievances as part of the society. What I am against is violence. Reverend Martin Luther King was a Christian and he showed us the way to protest without violence, same thing with Nelson Mandela. These two men are role models in this wise.

That being said, I see no similarities between what Christians are doing now and the violent protests we've seen in Islam. Moslems go way overboard trying to express their grievances. They have shown no respect to the laws and sovereingty of the lands that have most times, accepted them when their Islamic countries have had nothing to offer them (a case of biting the hands that feeds you). They burn the flags of these nations and chant death to them! That is totally unacceptable.

During the cartoon protest, one of the things they did was to boycot Danish goods. This I think is acceptable and should have been enough, more innovative ways of protesting should be encouraged. But no, they must call for the head of the cartoonists and burn embassies. These are things that will infuriate them if done to them.

Personally, I have often wondered why they go to such an extent to protest. I ask my self, if their Allah is alive and well, and if he is all powerful as they proclaim, can't he fight his battles himself? Must he use men to do his dirty work? Why the uproar when Mohammed's name is mentioed? Wasn't he flesh and blood like the rest of us? Or did he receive the Holy Spirit more than Jesus and so should be worthy of such reverence? It all just doesn't make sense.

Guys.

Coolu, coolu, coolu temper!!! If you guys will like to trade insults, maybe you should start another thread for that purpose. Mind you, you have to check the rules to make sure this is allowed. Otherwise, I wish you two will allow those who want to have a serious discussion and debate to continue. All these vituperations are in bad taste and should be discontinued henceforth, or else, I will report you guys to class teacher. I'm writing down names o!

The topic is Islamism - the new global threat. Please let's stay true to the purpose of this thread. I don't want to see any more crusades or Jihad here.

OlaAjia ,

TayoD,
When you say Christianity goes way beyond logic, what exactly are you insinuating? That you should not think before you accept a doctrine? I'm just a bit curious. Or should this be a perfect explanation for the reasons that there are so much contradictions in the Bible of these days?

Don't be ridiculous. Where are the contradictions in the Bible. I find absolutely none. I dare say I've studied it longer and better than you have, and have received also the Spirit of the letter, and I can tell you that the Bible is all linked together with a beautiful thread called Christ Jesus. Of course, those who have been blinded by the god of this world cannot see it.
The Bible does not tell you to ignore logic and neither am I saying that. However, the Bible clearly says that there are those "who are ever learning, but never coming to the knowledge of the truth." If all you have is a load of information without the Spirit of God, you will never come to the knowledge of the truth. If God is all about logic, then our Professors and learned men will be the most spiritual people, and the so-called ignorant and unlearned people like your Prophet will stand no chance. But we know this is not so. In addition, the Bible says in 2Co 3:6 - "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." Any body can pick up and read as long as the person is learned, but not all are able to see the light.
Faith in God goes beyond logic, 'cos God does not dwell in that realm. God is Spirit, and you have got to be in that realm for Him to be real to you. And we know that the part of us as humans closest to God is not the head, but the heart.
I hope this answers your curiosity.

But Jesus knew his teachings will be confirmed by the Comforter, and then it will be written down. That's why he told his disciples to wait for the Comforter.   But Idon't think he Said in Jerusalem ( I may be wrong).

Luke 24:49 - "And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high."  Can you see how wrong you are now?  Which teachings of Jesus did Muhammad come to confirm?  Is it the stoning of people caught in adultery when Jesus said "he that has no sin should cast the first stone" or is Muhammad's teachings of Harems in heaven when Jesus said it is blasphemy to say that because we all shall be like angels then?  Or is it Mohammed's teachings to kill
apostates and non-believers when Jesus said "do not resist an evil person"? 

I found it hard to understand what you mean by the "prophets". Are these another scripture? Muslims only recognise The Torah (Book of moses (ASW)), The psalms, The Gospel, and the Quran.

This is just typical of  you folks.  You find it hard to understand anything Jesus said, so you say everything to fit your desires.  Go find out about the history of the Jewish holy book and the Bible, then you will understand what the Prophets are.  Jesus confirmed their authenticity and Mohammed did so passively by saying Jews, Christians and Moslems worship the same God. These manuscripts predates Islam and Muhammad and your Prophet who is as confused about Christianity as you are claims the Christians and Jews in his time were worshipping the same God.  Obviously, the complete Bible existing during his days must have been the right one to him.  So you have a duty to find out what differences there are between the Bible that existed at the time Muhammad got that revelation, and the Bible that exists today.  Anything else you say short of the differences between the two will just be a matter of personal opinion and not facts.

This is simple logic. If Judaism is from God, then Christianity which also derives it's root is from God, only we believe both messages from God have been corrupted.

There is no logic in this at all.  Muhammad copying from both religion does not make Islam a religion from God.  There are many religions today that copy a lot from the Bible but whose adherents aren't christians.  One that readily comes to mind is the one set up by one Reverend on this blog called the church of the kinky mary magdalene.
Jesus didn't need to write any of the books to make it authentic!!  Why do you guys then believe in the Gospels when it wasn't written by Jesus.  If you believe in the Gospel of John, do you then believe in the letters written by John (1, 2 & 3 John)?,  If you believe in the Gospel of Mark, do you then believe in the Book of Acts writen by the same author?  Your confusion in Islam just seems to be growing in leaps and bounds.  And just to know, do you believe also in the Gospel of Judas just published?

ajia23,

You have shown how confused Islam and indeed Mohammed was about Christianity.

It also goes further to prove that by genealogy, the three religions are from the same source. Only that Muslims believe the message of Judaism and Christianity were altered by man. But you were wrong to assert that christianity is "something new" as even you know that Christianity came to the world because the Jews altered the Totah that was revealed to Moses (ASW) and instead started using their own versions of the revealed script to govern man and act like God. This is evidenced in their use of peripheral books written by their scholars instead of the Torah

In one case, you guys claim Christianity is really from God, and again here you claim that it is a product of Judaism.  Which is the fact?

This is evidenced in their use of peripheral books written by their scholars instead of the Torah. And Jesus (ASW) came to call them back to monotheism and the right path.

Jesus refered to both the law and the prophets.  The law is the 5 Books of Moses while the Prophets refer to the other writings of the Prophets which you guys just have a problem with. Luke 24:44 "And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me."

Muhammad(SAW) came. And he came to confirm in truth what had come before him, and also provide modifications to the previous laws that had been revealed  before him.

As you have revealed here, the only person who is out to change the Bible is Mohammed himself, and he has failed.  God said in Isaiah 55:11 "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."  God's Word is too valuable for Him to allow to be changed by man.  I will do anything to live up to my word, how much more God.  The God you proclaim in Islam obviously sounds like one that does not put any value on words.  The God of the Bible values His word as said in  Psalm 138:2: "I will worship toward Your holy temple and praise Your name for Your loving-kindness and for Your truth and faithfulness; for You have exalted above all else Your name and Your word and You have magnified Your word above all Your name!"
The only reason we do not believe in Mohammed is because he is fake and not of God.  he came telling us an Angel spoke to him and we've been warned of people like him in the scriptures in Galatians 1:8 "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."  We've already being warned of the devil coming in the form of an angel of light  2 Corinthians 11:14 "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."

It is wrong for you to say Christians are not expected to believe in Islam, because there is a veiled reference9 by the way, methinks the veil was by man not God) to Muhammad (SAW) in the bible, where Jesus said, after Him God will send the Comforter. This is today misinterpreted to be the Holy Spirit.

You are again quoting the Bible.  So why do you think this passage is not corrupted like the others as you claim?  I thought I should include some quotes about the comforter here and tell me if you still feel the same way: John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;" John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."  John 15:26 "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:"  John 16:7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."
So since when did Mohammed become the Spirit of truth.  And by the way, He told the Disciples to wait in Jerusalem for the Comforter.  Since when did Saudi Arabia become Jerusalem?  You ere my friend.

GL,

That is a great piece. I guess the "stumbling block" as mentioned in the Bible will always be Jesus Christ. While a lot of religion (including Christianity) believes in Monotheism, the concept of Jesus being God is something too big to swallow for others. If we understand that God Himself is the embodiment of humility, then maybe we will begin to understand how He could have humbled Himself to come in the form of a man.

While I believe that Islam do borrow a lot from Christianity and Judaism, I am unable to accept the arguments that Islam became necessary because the Bible was corrupted. While Mohammed was alive, he did say that Moslems and Christians serve the same God. That goes to show that if the Bible was indeed corrupted, it must have been after the days of Mohammed. So which portions of the Bible is true and which is false? Can they prodce the same Bible that Mohammed testified to as being right during his days? or will they pick and choose which poriton of the Bible fits their desires?

One major difference between the two religion is summarised as this: While Islam regards Jesus as a Prophet, Christianity regards Mohammed as a fraud and an accursed person according to Galatians 1:8 "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."