₦airaland Forum

Christians around the World have to stand firm against these devils!

We will win and they will be banished!

Reverend, since when did this become a war between Islam and Christianity?  perhaps, I should not bother giving you a reply because I do not believe you have the mind of Christ.
The God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ desires a relationship with these people, He does not desire that any man should perish, but that all should come to the knowledge of the truth, but "the god of this world has blinded the eyes of them that believe not."  Your warfare should be on your knees in prayer, that they will come to see the truth.  Our fight is not against flesh and blood, so you need a new focus.

Europe like you know is pouplated by inquisitve minds, and I don't think with all their 'science' they will be led like sheep to the slaughter house by Islam. What this confirms to me is that I was right to become a muslim. It means Islam is passing the logic test everywhere it goes.

To you I give the following answer in Proverbs 16:25 "There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."

Christianity goes way beyond logic.  You can read the Book of Romans if you want to see logic and the scriptures at loggerheads.  God is working through the heart and you and all of Europe are trying to find Him through your head.  Jesus said He stands at the door of your heart knocking.  Maybe you need to turn off your thinking cap and listen to your heart, then you will encounter the Savior.  Your stand is well stated in 1 Corinthians 1:22 "For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom"  But hear 1 Corinthians 1:24 "But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God."

I really will like to know what prophecies about America you people are refering to.  There is nothing happening today that has taken God by surprise and that is not explicitly stated in His Word.  If you care about prophecies, I'll show you in the Bible the things going on in the world today, especially in the Middle East, and I'll show you what the end of your hero in Iran and Russia will become.  Unknown to them, they are the tools for evangelsim that the Lord will use to win the Islamic world over to Him.  Indeed "He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision." Psalms 2:4.  The day is almost here.

Thanks Tolulope. I appreciate your input. I think Dearzi just has a problem with the guy, and she looks for every reason to justify her position. The Choir thing is another one of such. If we are to get really technical, we will discover that there is no single mention of a choir in the New Testament. While I do not think it is anti-scriptural, I really don't find a backing for it. Like I said before, most of the things we do in the Body is just for administrative reasons.
The purpose of the church is to come together in a place where we can be equipped to go out and do the work of the ministry. If you are a Pastor, and you feel having a choir will help you, all well and good. However, do not condemn others who don't feel the same way. And by the way, there are at least two worship leaders who lead the congregation in Praise and Worship. He does not do that himself.
Okotie is a teacher of teachers, and this is a fact. You may not like his style, but you can never doubt his calling, ability and annointing. There are certain people in the Bible that I don't like, but who are men of God. I acknowledge their short-comings and the crudeness of their style, but I never let that blind me from the grace of God that was upon them. For instance, I wouldn't have been a member of Elijah "church" if I was to live in his days or he in mine. It's just a personal thing. The Bible reveals enough about his personality that makes me feel this way.
God never gets us born again to turn us into Zombies, so we all dress the same, talk the same and try to minister the same like some people try to do in some denominations. You retain your personality and God works through that to minister to people. Okotie is real, and that's one of the reasons why I love the man.

Men,
This is solid.  I felt like I just sat down with a man of God who knows the God he is talking about personally.  This should tell us Christians not to look down on some more 'secular' christians because they do not worship as we do, or go into the vocation that we will expect.
This is such a great testimony and a simple and clear take on what it is to be a Christian.  Bono sure has a christian world-view.

xkape,

I'll try and give you the gist by weekend.  I'm a little busy now.  As a starter, you can read Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28.  You will find some things there to help.

Cheers.

I thought you were supposed to be writing a paper.  No call my new baptismal name (TayoD Okotie) when he happen o.
Tell me, when did numerical numbers become the yardstick for a church's spirituality.  Don't get me wrong, it is good, but it is definitely not what measures the acceptability of the church before God's sight.  Increase is from God and it has nothing to do with a man's effort: "I have planted, Apollo watereth, but God gives the increase."
Common, Okotie is never one to brag nor one to push himself forward.  If he likes attention and believes in doing anything to get it, I believe he would have still maintained his music minstry,'because men, the guy still dey dole out great sound.  However, he believes in only staying where God has placed you per second, per second. 
I find nothing wrong in his mention of Pastor Bimbo in that interview.  He was asked a question, and he gave a background to his answer.  He said the death made him cry because while many people may know Pastor Bimbo now that she is famous, he knew her when she was still unknown and knew what she was all about.  He said he cried because this is someone close to his heart and has been a member of his ministry.  Must you read more meaning to what he said?
Anyway, we've digressed a lot from the main topic, and I have a feeling that nothing can make you change your mind, though that is not my purpose.  I'm sure if today, he lives his life in a way you feel is acceptable, you will change your mind about all you've said.  But I personally like his style, he inspires me a great deal.
Going into all the world does not mean you have to go personally.  If anything, he is in the U.S. now through me and many others.  My friend that inspired me is in the U.K., a lot of us I know have travelled to differnt parts of the world and different parts of Naija.
And as Okotie once said: "the true test of a great man is not in being great himself, but his ability to make others great." 
For a teacher like him, you will find it hard to have a huge following because you never compromise on your teachings.  One of the greatest teachers of all time was W.E. kenyon, and he was never known to have a big church.  Okotie is just not your conventional run-of-the-mill pastor you find out there.  In addition, I really see him as a Prophet because many of the tings he taught and showed from the Bible is what we are seeing happen now, especially in the U.S. 
I don't know about control  o.  I was a member of his church for close to 4 years and he does not know my name, nor have I ever sat together with him in his office.  I know he is very accessible because all the members in the church have his direct cell phone number.   The best I have done in personal relationship with him was to ask him a question uring one of the Q & A sessions in the service, and like he always says, none of us should really need to talk to him personally if we make good use of the tape ministry. i went to his church when I had nothin and was so down, but before I left, i was richly blessed in physical, material and spiritual resources. A lot of people will testify to this too.

Why do you think the guy does not have leadership skills? If you can vote oyedepo and not him, it shows you have a personality issue with him. I believe that is acceptable because in a way, there are men of God I flow with, and others that I do not flow with at all. It does not take away from my beign a Christian or their being annointed, it's just what it is. Just like I might have a certain endearment to the personality of some people, and I don't for others, the same thing applies here, but the basis of my relationship to all is LOVE.

Is it only RMD that you know that goes to his church? So anywhere RMD goes to worship makes the place a satanic place? By the way, RMD is no more than a worker in the children's church. At least, that is all I knew him to be.

As for his fruits - they are plenty. Pastors Taiwo and Bimbo Odukoya were trained by him, Pastor Anslem Madubuko was trained by him, a number of Pastors in Redeemed passed through his church and consider him a mentor. A number of churches have been set up and are supported by Chris Okotie. The problem many have is that they expect him to set up branches, and as far as he is concerned, it is not biblical. The sole purpose he believes branches are set up is for administrative reasons, but you can never find a backing for it in the scriptures.

You think of it, how many of the Men of God here in the U.S. established and controls other branches? they may have affiliations like Rhema does, but no Pastor ordains and calls another to head up another branch. I know this may lead to other arguments, but then, you can bring it on. I personally don't wee in the scriptures, the basis for setting up branches.

The more the manifestation of that son of perdition draws near, the more rejoicing we do as Christians.  "It tells us to work (for the salvation of others) while it is day, 'because the night cometh when no man can work." - paraphrase.
And by the way, the full manifestation of the man of lawlessness will not take place until the body of Christ is taken up in rapture: 2 Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who now restrains it is removed."
The prescence of the Body of Christ with the consequent prescence of the Holy Spirit is what prevents his full manifestation.

I assume Thunder Balogun is on the reserve bench!

I have not insulted anyone and saying people are bieng myopic does not constitute an insult in my opinion.
I have said times without number that what qualifies him or anybody is not because he is a Pastor. His administrative skills is what I believe qualifies him as one. can you tell me and prove to me that baba has a better administrative skills than he does?
If Oyedepo or any other man of God in Nigeria runs for Prez, i will support them as well, not just because I believe they will stamp out corruption as much as possible, but because the only institution we find in Nigeria today that works and works well is the Church and after that the Banks.
Maybe you should go back and find out also what the critics say about the last Presidential debate. Okotie was way beyond the others in terms of vision and plans for the country.
The others never had any plans (Gani for one was just quoting statistics), but he did. He addressed almost every sector of the economy. I still believe one who has a plan and can articulate it, is much better than those who get there by making us believe no one else is capable of doing it. And once they are there, it is all a matter of trial and error.
No doubt, I am biased against him, but for a good reason. He is still the best of the bunch as far as I'm concerned.
Why does his Pastoral calling be a limitation to a man,s ability and capability. he is obviously multi-talented. I mentioned earlier that the guy has a system of health insuranc in place in Lagos that a lot of people now enjoy. As a lay-man, he has done that, now imagine what more he can do if in power.
Starting from a LG chairman or something is a weak argument when we know that the only way Nigeria can be changed for good is if it happens at the presidential level. besides, the only qualification David had to become the king of Isreal was to be a shepherd and to have the heart of a shepherd. Joseph also became the ruler of the greatest nation of his time without being a local government chairman. Maybe we should contemporise what we see from the scriptures, then we will see possibilities and not limitations.
Whether he becomes President or not is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. I believe he has opened the door for many and has fired the flame of ambition and bravery in the hearts of Nigerians who are capable of making a difference but are too intimidated to take the first step.
Accusations that a lot of people you know go to the church for Babes only shows that you are mixing with the wrong crowd. I used to go to the church because I find no one else that teaches the Bible as good as he does in Lagos, and I've seen the fruit of those teaching in my life and in the lives of others, including those who are blessed through the ministers he reaised up.
As for Dearzi, common, you really think Okotie does not know the scriptures? I really don't think so. Apart from his excellent training in the U.S., with people like Marilyn Hicky his contemporary, you really don't have a point. Maybe is grammar really detracts you from what he is saying, but the nitty gritty of his message is not lost to a lot of people.
This is my opinion.

and by the way, how does your fear guarantee that you will avoid hell since your allah has said he "will fill hell with men and jinn"?

It is God's goodness that leads to repentance, not His wrath.

I primarily don't preach to people first from the point of Hell. No. I tell them God's plan for salvation and God witnesses the truth to their heart. The Bible says in Romans 2:4 "Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? "
How many people have quit smoking from fear of cancer? Men, will always be men. Even in Naija today, many still claim that AIDS does not exist and go on to care less. A former south african leader was just acquited of rape charges on a woman who happens to be HIV positive. He knew she was HIV positive but still had unprotected sex with her. Tell me, how does fear of death help such a man?

Worshipping God because of fear of going to hell is called FEAR, and you know what? God is Love and perfect law casts out fear. In other words, there aint no God in what you say.
I worship God because I love Him, and I love Him because He first loved me.

Who is being emotional?  Christians?  You have no clue.  Christianity gives you all the logic in the world and the basis of salvation.  It traces the fall, the consequences, the remedy, the solution and then salvation.  Every action is validated by other scriptures with a thread that links it all up from genesis to Revelation.  
Islam is more of the emotional.  Emotion against what you perceive aint right in Christianity.  You assume if chirtianity is wrong, then Islam must be the right one.  Though you find no plan of salvation in the Qu'ran, yet you'd rather gamble with your life based on one man's visions and revelations.  I wonder how many people saw Angel Gabriel appear and talk to Mohammed.  "In the mouth of two or 3 witnesse, let every word be established" is what the Bible says.

I belief in God, because I have too, otherwise I would be barnished to hell. I was created for a reason, and I have a guide that promises renumerations. So my belief in God is brought about by the belief in the message he sent to man of which he tells man his purpose and mentions his existence. I accept my duty and I am working towards achieving my purpose

I expected more logic from he who calls himself the logical.  By the way, can you give me a quote from your holy book that tells you your duty to God as I did from Ecclesiastes?

because sometimes we think we are quite ok with our faith when we actually are not

Does this apply to you as well?

You digress, but here is your answer in Ecclesiates 12:13: "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."

When you're are this brazenly blasphemous, what stops me from exposing how brainless you're?

I said earlier that Islam does not give room for thinkers only followers.  What have I said here that deviates from logic?  Your only response to to call me names.  How does that make you more righteous and better still, how does that validate your faith?  Maybe you should just answer that question.  If you don't give me an answer, you shold at least answer your heart.

its the account made by men of God of the past, example is the Old testament which was actually supposed to be the recordings of Moses

Isn't the Qu'ran an account made by Mohammed? Doesn't the Qu'ran acknowledge other Prophets apart from Moses?
And by the way, this quotation from Surah 29:46 was pencilled down about 1400 years ago. At that time, the New and Old Testament were already compiled into the compendium we call the Bible. This is what your Prophet was refering to. You can chose to believe otherwise, and that makes you just an unbeliever in the infallibility and divine inspirations of the Qu'ran as I am.

Thats more the reason why we muslims tend to believe in the original Bible not the polluted one of today. We believe that the first bible was Original, but that which is available today is polluted,  Thats the muslim belief.

So you must believe that your god is powerless to preserve the integrity of his word.  Do you know to what extent even men will go to make sure their words are not corrupted?  Now extend that desire to God.

And if Allah's supposedly spoken words were corrupted then, what is the guaranty that the one he tried to get out through Mohammed wasn't corrupted as well.  That allah must really be powerless if his words are so easily trampled down.

Hear what God said in the Bible in Isaiah 55:11 "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."

I'm talking about the One true God (Jehovah) who manifests Himself as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Bebrews 1:1-3 "1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven."

There is not one contradiction in the Bible about Jesus.  Your understanding should be the more enlightened if you realise that not all the prophecies have been fulfilled.  Some prophecies were meant for His first coming which have been fulfilled to the letter, those yet to be fulfilled are meant for either His Millenial reighn of some time in the near future.

Surah 29.046
YUSUFALI: And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."
PICKTHAL: And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our Allah and your Allah is One, and unto Him we surrender.
SHAKIR: And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our Allah and your Allah is One, and to Him do we submit.

I thought I should get started by showing from your holy book that it acknowledges that the Allah you worship is the same as Jehovah (though as a Christian, I know this is not true).  On the other hand, you have been told to submit yoursleves to Jehovah.

Common,

Have we descended to name-calling now?  

Good you put it in the right order anyway.  I thought you were saying something else in your earlier post.

What is your guarantee that it was the real Angel Gabrile that spoke to Mohammed?  The Bible talks about the fact that Satan himself disguises as an angel of light.  

If Mohammed could neither read nor write, how did he ensure that it was what he said word-for-word that was written down?  You know the longer your chain of communication, the more liable it is to corruption.  

And I pray you tell me why the same angel Gabriel that brought the news to Mary that she will give birth to the Messiah now come around and tell Mohammed things that are totally contrary?  Why do all the Books of the Bible written by various authors say the same thing about Jesus under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and yet one so-called prophet who is no doubt, a nationalist and with a racial superiority mentality now claim something much more different?

With the reputation of all those Prophets and that of Mohammed taken into consideration, why should I believe his revelations?

I understand your stand about all religion should preach peace, but where are the leaders of islam who should be at the fore-front of the crusade?
Recently, a well respected man of God, Pat Robertson made a very stupid statement in the public. Christians were at the fore-front to run him down and he was voted out of a christian body that he had been part of for a long time. that is what we are saying.
But what I see on the part of Islamic leaders is consent through silence. And when they talk, they are issuing fatwa to kill people like rushdie and the cartoonist who are only expressing thier God-given right to free speech.

In Islam it is a sin not to get educated for example, but how many of this spit fires, have education?

If it is a sin not to get education in Islam, was Muhammad a sinner then?

I'm gonna reply you guys in stages as I have the time.

By the way, your assertion that he was unlettered makes no difference to anything. The Bible was written by dozens of authors with different educational backgrounds.

The Qu'ran was inspired quite alright, but not by God I dare say. I'll also give you reasons for my conclusions.

What is this about who wrote the Qu'ran? Angel Gabriel? Please make yourself clear. I want to kow the details.

and while you talk about the sciences of the Qu'ran. Didn't it say also that the sun sets in water? Does science say the same thing?

Common, be serious. Moslems more open to critisms and questioning about their faith? You are joking, right?

The mere fact that an 'unbeliever' is seen carrying a Bible in some Islamic countries, will see them dead. Why so much fear about the Bible in these lands? Why do they supress the Bible so much in the Middle East? It's all because of fear of people finding out that the Qu'ran might not be what it says it is afterall.

Say anything about Mohammed that Moslems don't want to hear, and you turn into their enemies immediately. Recently in Naija, a riot broke out because a contestant said Mohammed would have probably chosen one of them as a bride he he was alive. It was God who delievered me from the hands of those Islamo-fanatist that day. Was anything wrong with what she said? Is there no posibility of truth in that staement? I wonder.

Reinhard Bonkke will not be allowed in the North also because of this fear of openess to the truth. We are not allowed in Saudi to preach our Gospel as it pleases us, yet an image of Mohammed is on the Supreme Court building in America to show his contribution to the development of Law. Your assertion definitely has no backing.

Logical,

I know you are a moslem, and I respect your choice.  Can you prove to me that God gave the Qu'ran to Mohammed?  can you prove that point by point?

The evidence of the Bible being God's word is numerous.  We could take it from the point of view of prophecies fulfilled, current world event, the veracity of its claims adn the power it has to heal the sick, raise the dead and meet all needs based on faith in the God who wrote it.

While you can also try to prove other stuffs to me, I can tell you I do not acknowledge them and they are nothing but BULL**** to me.  The Bible reveals the beginning of creation, what goes on between the beginning and the ending.  It reveals God's plan for salvation and the eventual conquest of evil.  What other books does this.  What other book makes such bold claims that can be verified by today's events?  I dare say none, but you can prove me otherwise.

So what sort of fight will make others pay you taxes even if they don't want to?  And what sort of fight will make them feel subdued?
No matter who translates the Bible, we have different books which gives you the Hebrew, Araimaic or Hebrew words and gives you the different shades of meaning.
I understand that the meaning of a word may be lost in translation, and that is why reading within context will be also helpful.
I don't have a problem with different translations within Islam, afterall, God isn't Arabic.  He communicates to our hearts in the language we understand.
But isn't it curious that all the translators never used the word 'evangelism'.  Rather, they all translated Jihad to mean 'fight' and as I said, we saw this 'fight' aspect practiced by your Prophet as well.
The last time I found myself involved in arguments with Moslems liek this was in my 100L in U.I.  I find out that moslems don't question their faith and are much more intolerant as Christians.  But this intolerance doesn't make them right.  A lot of things I can question about this faith, but I have found out it is almost useless.
As Jesus said, conversion and fait in Him depends on each indivicual opening the door of his heart as Jesus knocks.  Anyway, I digree again, but the basic principle remains the same.
I hope we can keep a dialoguegoing without resorting to insults as has been done before now anyway.

There is no doubt I have a mindset. This mindset was established through experience and education. I have no doubt that you are muslims and you practice your religion the best way you deem fit. However, I do believe the other moslems who believe that if they die killing other "unbelievers" are also practicing what they find in their holy scriptures. To them, that is a guaranteed way to get into heaven and practice a wild orgy with the blonde Harem that Allah promised them.
Now if such promise really comes from the Qu'ran, how say ye then it does not promote violence, when in fact, it rewards it?

I thought I should give you other translations as well of the same verse in Surah 9:29:
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
PICKTHAL: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

You know, this is some of the hyprocicy I see in Islam.  You guys claim christianity is polluted because of the many translations we have, and here you have so many translations as well.  You also pick and choose the one that best fits your pre-determined conclusion, or how else would you say:

Besides that, sometimes there is a misconception on what fight might imply, because it is translated from the word Jihad, which is actually known as evangelism, if translated based from classical arabic and what it signifies. Thats why you have a certain group of muslims such as the "IPCI" founded by the late Ahmed Deedat, still doing that. That is Jihad(Holy war), which is literally Evangelism if properly compared to historical associations besides use.

That's one of the other problems I find with respect to Islam.  Revelations come at will to the Prophet based on the circumstance, like someone said recently that the Prophet married the underaged girl because of some tribes that marry young girls.  Doesn't God predate every circustance?  Does He make laws just to fit into the system?  So if theProphet were alive today, would he receive a new revelation sanctifying gay and lesbian marriage in order to be acceptable to those perverts?  I find in life that to live by principle, you better not be moved by circumstances.  I choose to love everybody not because of what they do to me now or in the future, but based on the principle of 'Love thy neighbour as thyself". 
When your Qu'ran says that you should "fight,  until a group of people become subdued" do you really think it's talking about evangelism?  Don't insult our intelligence.  there is nothing within the context or post-text of that verse that suggests anything but a armed conflict, at least that is what your Prophet practised too. 

And by the way, I only quoted your scriptures because somone asked for one verse in it that advocates violence.