₦airaland Forum

Negro,

These are ideals, theoretical proposals that will not apply or produce the expected outcome on a personal or corporate tax. . . . . they do have validity in excise tax!  The theory is applicable only to excise tax!

4_Play,

The Laffer curve is no longer relevant today in respect of personal income tax.  However, it will make sense for the US to reduce the Corporation Tax for the mere reason that it makes the US more competitive. In this respect, the Laffer curve is still valid.

You are both right to the extent that some aspects of human behavior are not taken into consideration here.  In these days of "funemployment" where unemployment checks can be relied upon to roll in for months, any increase in taxes could make the difference between keeping a job or opting for unemploment.  I say this because I know people who actually chose to not work because the returns are comparable to what they get in the form of an unemployment check.

One other thing we also should consider here is that this talk of taxing the rich goes way beyond personal income taxes.  A lot of small businesses here in the US will get taxed at the higher level being suggested by the Socialist Democrats.  As you both agree, rasing taxes on these entities is surely a bad idea.

@Cap28,

I think you are the one that is badly in need of that crash course in Economics 101. It will be fool-hardy for me to be explaining investment products to someone who does not know the difference between a tax cut and a bail out. That politicians sometimes use the terms interchangeably to achieve a political end does not make them the same. Go figure!!!!

@cap28,

I think you desperately need a crash course in economics 101 - how does giving welfare to the rich grow an economy??

It will be good to understand what is being said before you go off tangent making rather baseless comparisons. At what time did I ever condone welfare for the rich? I was actually contemplating going in the same direction you did but I just didn't want additional whining from Pres-elect about people going off topic.

In any case, how can you compare tax cuts (which I support) to bail outs (which I don't)? Tax cuts is asking people who make money to keep more of that money so that they can re-invest it to make more money and jobs which drive the economy. Bail outs on the other hand is subsidizing failure and promoting risky behavior. I support the former and not the latter.

So please understand what you read before suggesting what others need to learn! Capish!!!!

@David,

Repubs have one goal in mind - the destruction of Obama. Its not about policy, not about the economy, nothing to do with taxes ,  . Sen. McConnell  could not have made this point any clearer. But of course we still have those with their heads buried in the sands of denial.

Would you think they are only returning the favour seeing what the Dems including Obama did to Bush?  That is the nature of politics, it is not pretty.

Did i read about that republican who demanded his government health care even after campaigning to deny same to his constituents?

This is so blatantly foolish.  But of course, knowing how dishonest you Leftists are, one will not expect you to make a distinction between an employer provided health coverage and the socialist inclined universal health care.

The majority of Americans get their healthcare through their employers.  Politicians, like civil servants should have health coverage throgh their employer.  I will take you seriously if you ask that all Federal workers like the politicians should drop their health coverage.

@Davidylan,

and here we go, repeating the same old spin ad nauseum. Nobody understanding the other, simply shouting over our heads like good nigerians do. Our feet firmly rooted in our bunkers . . . the typical "i must be right" mentality even in the face of yawning ignorance. Na wa o. We nigerians are a special breed of people.

To think you have the audacity to say others are reapeating the same old spin and yet denigrate the character of millions of people with a few taps of your keyboard smack of sheer hypocrisy. Next time, you might want to live up to whatever vices you condemn.

And talking of the americans . . . i hear some defence of the tax cuts here . . . i wonder why we are in a recession at all even when taxes are at the lowest they have been in over 40yrs. Going by republican BS, this shld be the time of economic boom. They cant pay for unemployment extension but have no problems dipping the govt in more red ink just so THEY (the rich) . . . not us, can get their money to buy yachts and take holidays to France.

Let me make it simple for you. Could it be that we are in this mess just because the govt is spending more money than it has ever done? It's like Pres-elect claiming that the only reason why he is broke is because I am not giving him enough money. He will probably do better if he is living within his means, don't you think? By the way, if you are so concerned about the govt being so deep in red ink, why the support to extend the tax cut for any group of people for that matter? You mean extending the tax cut for people not tagged rich according to Obama will make no difference to the govt's income?

@Aloy,

Where did Ibime claim that depression was caused by tax cuts?. He simply asked you that if you believe that Bush tax cuts were so beneficial to the economy, why didn't it prevent depression and job losses?. That was the question and you are turning around now to take the liberal stance, arent you?. Is it not conservatives who claim that taxing the rich guys more will hurt their ability to provide us with our daily bread?.

You are trying too hard to appear smart. If the tax cuts were present before and during the depression, and someone insists it be taken away, isn't that a tacit admission that it is a contributing factor to it? So why the insistence that it should be taken away? Why not insist that the givt should live within its means and roll back spending to the pre-depression era?

Now to my own question. Would you be so kind as to provide us with the answers that Pres-elect is obviously at a loss in answering? What are Obama's antecedents or record that will cause anyone to believe that he is in a position to negotiate anything as President?

@Aloy,

That wasn't the question he asked you and if you believe that is the probable answer to that question then you need to seek for refund from the school that trained you.Who is everyone by the way?. Assuming everyone is in agreement that it should be extended, why should we after all, who likes to pay taxes?. If there is a way the government can propose the elimination of taxes for all citizens, I bet you that 100% will be in agreement whether  liberal ,conservative and independents.

That is because the question is based on a faulty logic.  The question assumes that the depression was caused by tax cuts.  Where is the data to prove that?  The Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001 resulted in more money in govt coffers and led to one of the longest periods of prosperity ever known by this country.

Was it the tax cuts that led to the subprime mortgage mess? Was it responsible for the exponential increase in govt spending?  Like I mentioned much earlier, this is nothing but class envy politics where a demarcation is made with votes in mind.

You may want to check this out from the American Thinker: http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/03/lying_about_bushs_tax_cuts.html

In fact, the Bush tax cuts actually increased government revenue. According to economist Brian Reidl of the Heritage Foundation, The Laffer Curve (upon which much of the supply-side theory is based) merely formalizes the common sense observations that

•1. Tax revenues depend on the tax base as well as the tax rate,
•2. Raising tax rates discourages the taxed behavior and therefore shrinks the tax base, offsetting some of the revenue gains, and
•3. Lowering tax rates encourages the taxed behavior and expands the tax base, offsetting some of the revenue loss.

If policymakers intend cigarette taxes to discourage smoking, then they should know that high investment taxes will discourage investment and income taxes will discourage work. Lowering taxes encourages people to engage in the given behavior, which expands the base and replenishes some or all of the lost revenue. This is the "feedback effect" of a tax cut.

@Emeka,

I can see you are one of those who try to feel important and smart by claiming others are not as knowledgeable as you are.  If it'll help your ego, I will not ask you to desist from it.  Afterall, nothing you say takes away anything from me.  I am very comfortable in my skin, my mind and my spirit.  

So you are of the opinion that the best way to grow this economy is to take money away from the productive sector and give it to the leeches?  I'm sorry, but nothing in my educational background, life experience or common sense will make me agree with the faulty logic you guys present.  I guess unlike giving tax cuts and incentives to the productive people who can create jobs, you must agree with Nancy Pee-losi who said the best way to grow the economy is to hand out unemployment checks  .  We cut down the deficits by borrowing money to hand out unemployment checks  .  That is the Democrat way out of this recession.  While it takes Pee-losi to say such a thing, it takes a complete slowpoke to believe it  .

@Pres,

when I talk of foreign negotiation, I meant real foreign policy like defence treaties etc, not sports, lol. Ok I know you are bored again, go back to your room and look at that unclothed Sarah palin photo on your wall and enjoy your fantasies. Aight!

Is it not the same principles in every walk of life? Like I said, if you can point to anything this guy did or accomplished before he became President that gave you any indication that he could handle this office, then I will concede.

You and this your infatuation with Palin. She is a married woman o. Go find your own wife. You probably stand a better chance of doing that if you will only stop imagining other people's wives naked.

@topic,

Talking about the Bamster's legendary negotiating abilities, does anyone remember the failed Chicago bid for the Olympics? The Bamster along with his wife, Michelin carried the dignity of the office of the President of the United States half way around the world only to be humiliated by a resounding rejection of his plea. He must think all he needs to get his way was just to show up and everybody will start genuflecting and acquiescing to his every demand. But of course with no prior experience to teach the guy otherwise, the many adoring fans he has must have given him a false illusion of the real world.

Russia just won the bid to host the World Cup. Putin pulled strings from afar and only travelled after he knew Russia's bid was successful. He joined in the celebration of the win. I hope our Executive-Intern President will learn some lessons from that. I wouldn't hold my breadth though, he appears way too narcissistic to think he can learn from other people.

@Ibime,

If the Bush tax cuts are so special, why are they not creating the jobs to offset the depression? Some niggas are really deluded.

If the tax cuts are so bad, why is everyone in agreement that it should be extended? Never mind that some are using it for class envy politics by calling for extension only for the group that translates to a bigger voting block!!!!

Old Sayian law multiplier coefficients are weaker in these days of outsourcing. The multiplier effect on jobs is ever shrinking. You give Tayos employer tax break and he will only plot how to replace Tayo with Chinese man. . .or go and open new branch in China.

This is so dumb I can't believe that it's coming from Ibime. You mean by increasing the cost of doing business through heavier taxes, my employer will not outsource to China but he will do just that if his cost of doing business is reduced? What are you smoking my friend?

Some niggas are too emotional. I can just imagine some punks of wavering disposition banging their head on their car window whilst listening to Rush Limbaugh, looking like an emotionally imbalanced crackhead during rush hour.

This is an apt description of Pres-elect. Wetin the guy do you now?

@JeSoul,

Now that is one thing I am on your side with. I don't agree when statements like "we will oppose democrats/republicans no matter what" are made. They are infantile and indicative of the brat-ish nature leadership has fallen to. There are very few adults left on Capitol Hill . . . lets hope they are enough to actually do something.

I see you have fallen for one of the lies being peddled here. What lie you ask? This big, fat one: "GOP has made a statement to oppose everything the democrats try to do on the lameduck except tax cut." You have to learn to challenge the premises and basis of every Liberal's argument because they are usually founded on lies such as the above.

What the Republicans have said is very different. What they have said is that no issue will be taken up until the issue of making the Bush tax cuts permanent for all Americans is addressed. Coupled with that is that they want a budget to fund the government done before any other legislative item is addressed. Tell me, what is more important at this crucial "Obama Depression" than job creators knowing the cost of doing business as well as putting the govt under strict budget? Liberals depend on ignorance to govern. Americans are much more enlightened than that.

@Pres,

this thread is about negotiating ability. Never mind someone came here and started trying to change it and looking for blames.

If only you will let your thinking overide your frivolous emotions, then you will clearly see how this issue was addressed in my very first post. If I may ask again, what evidence did you have from Obama's previous services in the Private or Public sector of the economu that gave you the confidence that he will be able negotiate and bring to pass the promises that you think he made during the campaign. Like I said, this is a case of Obama not living up to the image that people built in their minds.

You and I can never agree on what is right or wrong policy. The healthcare bill you say American people don't like, I agree, but I think they don't like it bc it is not enough

Is that so. I hope and pray that Obama feels the same with you. I will sure like him to at this point, plan to expand the bill. That will be a conservative's dream come true.

You may think the bill is too much. So we can always disagree on policy. There clueless voters in every county and party, when Obama campaigned that tax cut is for middle class he wasn't on drugs.

What tax cuts are we talking about? The debate right now is if there will be a tax increase or not. We are talking about either taxes going up or remaing at the existing rate. Where is the tax cut in that? People are being sold a bill of goods here.

I see that I have touched some nerves. To think that all I get in response to my salient points are juvenile attacks on my person reveals the depth of hero worship we are up against. When people gloss over incompetence through sheer ignorance and blind optimism, what we have is unmitigated disaster- Obama anyone?

@topic,

Obama weak? Absolutely. He is in over his head and is no more sure of what to do than a deer in headlights. Here is someone who has never managed anything in his life and yet finds himself as President of perhaps, the biggest empire the world has ever known. I don't blame him though, I blame the many ignoramuses that voted him President. I blame the Republican Party that presented a very weak candidate to run against him. I blame his many worshippers, like Pres-elect who make him feel that he is the next best thing to Christ. I blame the media that refused to do their job of vetting him properly. I blame the establishment that gave us style over substance.

On the other hand, I do not blame Pres-elect for the way he feels. Afterall, Obama was a clean canvass and everyone projected on him an image they hope for in a President. This explains Pres-elect's dissapointment. Tell us Pres, what do you know of Obama's record and antecedents that makes you feel he will do this and much more for you? What did he do or achieve in office prior to being the POTUS that gave you confidnece that he will pull through for you?

How are you different from those who think that Obama will buy them new houses and renovate their kitchens from the stash he keeps in the WH? Why should your outcome be different from those who through the last 3 generations have been waiting on the govt to make them rich even though they do not work? Everything isn't all about politics. I am perplexed and alarmed at the destination this country is heading. The biggest problem we have is not the rich, it is the government. The rich did not mortgage our future to China, this was the exclusive preserve of those in govt. Please desist from this class envy and get real. Last I checked, the $25,000 that has being witheld so far from my income this year was not done by a rich man, but by those in Washington. You have not yet identified your real problem.

@Negro,

Anyway, we have 90 weeks to 2012 election and if we are interested in re-electing this man then we must not allow our displeasure of national events - and there will be plenty of those – to divert our focus or rouse us to any boycott of any kind. We can still deny Bristol the crown. . . . all Black vote for her rival. This will do more than defeat her, it will deflate Tea Party and their Republican sponsors.

Sometimes you show glimpses of brilliance, and atimes Case in point is the sentence in bold! You mean the rank and file of Tea Partiers are glued to the TV set staking their political fortune on whether or not the daughter (not even the mama herself) wins DWTS? Honestly, I don't know whether to take you seriously or to simply see this as a not so funny attempt at humor. I reserve my judgement for now.

@pres-elect,

You've started again with all these your propaganda that can not stand up to scrutiny. But then, you are a liberal, so I will allow you to stay in your make-believe world that is devoid of reality.

#topic,

Naija is an affectionate term for Nigeria used by people who love the country.  I wonder, will the honorable Minister take exception to it if her husband calls her sweety, or honey? Afterall, the name her Papa named her is Dora (the Explorer)?  

We've heard a lot recently about the civil war within the RNC. Various pundit have posited that the fight for the soul of the RNC is being waged between the Tea Party on one hand and the RNC establishment. What they have successfully hidden up until now is the war within the DNC itself. The link below is a letter to no other than the Maha Rushie himself by a disgruntled Democrat who definitely knows what he is talking about. Though a long piece, it should still sustain the reader's interests because of the data, thought and passion put into the piece by the writer.

My favorite quote from the piece? - “It is crystal clear that being a patriotic American who loves this country is intellectually incompatible with being a Democrat. If you love America and want it to prosper, the Democrat Party is at absolute odds with everything we need for a thriving, successful economy.”

Enjoy! http://hillbuzz.org/2010/10/27/an-open-letter-to-rush-limbaugh-and-his-listeners/

@omo~fat,

Manchin is appealing to his audience's emotions. He has studied his audience (west virginia voters) and has decided to tell them what they want to hear in order to get their votes.

This sounds very much like Bill Clinton justifying Late Senotr Byrd's involvement with the KKK. Byrd did it basically because he wanted to get elected and to help the people he represents. Liberal mindset - unexplainable!

@JeSoul,

Don't mind Aloy+Emeka.  Who cannot play Mr Nice Guy with other people's money?  While Leftists simulate compassion through political activism, Conservatives do theirs by dipping their hands into their own pocket to help the needy. Survey continues to show that conservatives give much more of their earned income to charity than all the feel-good Leftists.  So don't let the pontifications of this itenerant leftist blogger called Aloy plus Emeka trouble you.

Check out the following article detailing the charitable giving of some leading conservatives and Leftists.  It's funny that what Biden gave out in charity the whole of this decade is less than half of the least amount my wife and me have ever given to charity in any given year - and we do not make what he makes in a year! http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-09-12-biden-financial_N.htm

Maybe if these Leftists put their money where their mouths are one will listen to them better. There probably will be less people dependent on the govt if only they make up the shortfall compared to Conservatives.

@Pres-elect,

david some people are ignorant by nature while some (like tayo) are ignorant by choice

My guy, you have stepped up your game o big time.  This is apparently your best line to date.  Watch your back man, I am going to respond to your t.it with tat-tat-tat!

@JeSoul,

TayoD, how body and family?

Me, Myself and the rest of mine are doing great.  How about you naa? Oga nko? Say hi to that lucky dude for me jare!

@David,

there is a difference between being a christian and being part of the "christian" right (i mean the "christian" taliban). You know the sadducees and pharisees who claim to be "christians" but spout the most vile hate towards the president despite what the bible tells them to do.

This is your problem. If some on the right call Obama a Nazi, you will come out swinging and crying racism. To think that you are guilty of the same thing you condemn. Christian Taliban? How innappropriate.

and as regards your "question" (really?) about where hannity and beck condemned capitalism . . . Tayo, i have better things to do than entertain such nonsense.

The truth is that your statement is blatantly false. You have been going around talking about facts and when you are asked to produce yours, you can only fillibuster.

Davidyland,

We can say the same for Glenn Beck, Hannity and O'Reilly.

Where, when and how has any of the people you listed here condemn capitalism?

@ thamemead, if you're expecting the "christian" right to comprehend facts then you're fighting a losing battle.

Since you are not one of the Christian Right you so abhor, you want to poit us in the right direction by providing facts to back up your statement above? Where did Glen Beck, Hannity and O'Reilly condemn capitalism has did Micheal Moore? Facts please, no bloviating.

Many of them think Obama is the fulfilment of bible prophecy as the anti-christ . . . if only they read their bibles more than they carry it around.

So how many opinion have you sampled to come to this conclusion? I suppose you have some facts and figures to support this claim or is this another one of your "it is so because I said so" comments?

@Davidylan,

pres-elect you're wasting time . . . the "christian" right have made up their minds, dont confuse them with facts pls.

You need to watch yourself o David. How can you put pres-elect and facts in the same sentence. Both are mutually exclusive abeg.

@thameamead,

I watched the Micheal Moore's film/documentary - Capitalism: The Love Story,

It takes a deliberate suspension of one's reasoning faculty to take Micheal Moore seriously. You mean the same person who has become a multi-millionaire by putting the principles of capitalism to work is now making more millions by condemning the same thing?

@topic,

Only a naive person will not see that Clinton's answer was definitely a dig at Obama. The reporter clearly stated that the problem of financial insolvency as it relates to the US defence is something that will happen in the future if we continue with the current trend. He mentioned a trillion dollar debt (which we all know is only applicable to Obama) as the problem. Clinton responded by stating emphatically that our RISING debt (present continous tense) pose a problem. Tell me who is reponsible for this ris[b]ing[/b] debt? Again she said we are los[b]ing[/b], and not that we lost. The same Clinton that was always pointing accusing fingers at Bush saw it fit in this case not to apportion blame to the responsible party. You wonder who she had in mind 'cos it couldn't have been Bush.

@Pres-elect,

Honestly, those guys are bold and they deserve everything they want.

What do they want?

After all the BP hullabaloo, Obama sets up a commission to investigate the crisis and the republicans in the senate block giving the commission a subpeona power!!!

Will they be able to subpoena Obama to find out why he was so lethargic and slow in responding to the spill? Or is it one rule for the Emperor and another for the subjects?

and still they lead in the polls.

What's your problem with that?

Honestly they are good.

Then vote for them!

Turned a healthcare reform that stops insurance companies from denying coverage for px with pre existing conditions into a bad thing.

You know what? Go request for an insurance coverage for your car after you total it. Come back and tell us here if you get any coverage.

Still they lead on the polls. Yet after this senate GOP block of a BP investigation commission powers, BP will still be blamed on the democrats

Unfortunately for Obama, there was no way he could have blamed it on Bush. Poor Obama.

they love war,

Who doesn't?

increase spending in defense but the money really doesn't get to the boys in the battle.

So defence budget is meant to be distributed on the battle field like Obama was dolling out money in Detroit?

Yet they lead at the polls. Lol.

Perhaps you do not understand what is going on. Maybe that is why this is so strange to you. To someone like me, I find it a natural consequence of the last 4 years (Pelosi - Obama ascension to power).

@topic,

I no fit shout.  I remember after the election of the one who must not be antagonised - Obama, all the left-leaning goons were shouting over each other's heads to declare that the Republican Party has finally been laid to rest.  To think they will now be crying out for pity on nairaland just a few months down the road.

As for the issue of the vacation or numerous vacations, I am of the opinion that the President should have led by example.  This is the person who has been telling us to tighten our belt and make sacrifices and we see no hint that he is doing the same.  Love or hate Bush, he led by example.  He totally gave up golfing in honor of the troops that were dying in Iraq.  Obama would not have invited such critism if he demonstrates that he makes sacrifices like the rest of us.

To see Michelin go to Spain and spend so much money abroad when our own economy will be helped by such spending just shows how much they are out of touch.  Why didn't she go to the Gulf to spend the money on that battered economy?  These are the same people who went on national TV to invite the rest of us to the Gulf while they headed to Spain.  Like their own left-leaning stations declared, the "optics" of the visit is totally bad, and for once, I agree with them.

As for Obama's popularity, how can he be popular when he has consistently taken positions that majority of Americans are totally against? From the health care bill to illegal immigration, from the proposed ground zero mosque to deficit spending, this is a President who is clearly not on the same page with the people who sent him to the WH.  The fact that he is a lousy administrator hasn't helped either!

@becomerich3,

The police is not the problem , but the federal govt of nigeria, who have refused to build a ring road around lagos. It is the only way goods and service can get to the north and east quick. Lagos state cant afford that road.
Red line is the road, it even help winner chapel and redeemed , mountain of fire and others.

Oga Sir. Your map only goes from Lagos to Sagamu. What are the trucks to do on getting to Sagamu? Mount up with wings and fly to either the North or East?

@bawomolo,

who gets to define marriage. heterosexuals?

And who should define it, the Judge? Even if we accept that society is free to make changes as social evolution often dictates, is it up to a single Judge to make that call? The society, very well and better represented by the electorate made the call, and the minority represented by an interest group and an activist Judge feel like they know better.

We've heard about the tyranny of the majority. What do we make of this tyranny of the minority?!