₦airaland Forum

honesttalk21:
I am out of this discussion and it's you and your neutral AI arbiter which says to your submission:

No, the two points do not contradict each other. TenQ’s reading of the word “only” and the new AI answer he quotes are pushing a strict occasionalist formulation, but they do not overturn the mainstream Sunni position when the full picture is considered.
Clarifying the points
Point 2 (Fulfilment needs only Allah’s will and command)
This is correct. In Sunni aqīdah (especially Ashʿarī), creation is takwīn by Allah’s will and power alone. Nothing outside Allah contributes independent causal power. Apparent physical means have no real efficacy of their own; they are only the customary patterns (ʿādah) that Allah has established.
Point 3 (Processes or secondary causes remain possible if Allah wills them)
This is also correct and does not cancel point 2.
Allah can will something to exist through sequential stages (the Qur’an and hadith describe Adam’s formation involving clay, molding, drying, and the breathing of spirit).
Those stages themselves are created by Allah’s command. They are not “other inputs” that He needs or that share in His creative power.
From Allah’s side the command remains instantaneous and sufficient; the unfolding in time is how He chooses to actualise it for creatures.
On the new prompt and the AI answer you showed
The prompt asks:
“Can Kunfayakun of Allah be conjoined with physical actions other than the speech of Allah in creation?”
A strict Ashʿarī answer is “No,” because physical actions have no independent causal power. That is what the screenshot correctly reflects.
However, this does not mean the Qur’anic descriptions of stages (clay, molding, etc.) are false or contradictory. Those stages are themselves the product of Allah’s will and command. They are not partners to kun; they are the form in which kun is realised.

Your take is so anti-islamic that I wonder why you chose to belittle Allah's power by saying that the Kunfayakun of Allah is NOT absolute BUT it may need some physical assistance.

If that is the case, every human being have the power of kunfayakun.

Like after buying some rice, washing them, putting them in a pot , adding water and placing it on the burner for some time AFTER the water is dried, I say "KUNFAYAKUN"! And rice is done.

This is exactly how you have described the Kunfayakun of Allah.

It is unislamic sir.

honesttalk21:
Summary
“Only” means Allah needs nothing outside His own will and power.
It does not mean Allah is forbidden from creating through ordered stages that He Himself ordains.
Instant efficacy refers to the divine side (no delay, no struggle, no need). It does not erase the possibility of temporal sequence from the creature’s perspective.
The two statements stand together in mainstream Sunni theology. The rigid reading TenQ is extracting does not create the contradiction he claims once the distinction between required means and ordained stages is kept clear.

Only is an exclusive time sir. You cannot reinvent the dictionary to suit your argument.

Only the women get pregnant exclude all men irrespective of how you want to twist it.

In this case,
Fulfilment of action needs only Allah’s will and command: this is Kunfayakun.


You know the truth but it is your perceived duty to protect Allah and his messenger even if you would have to resort to going against your conscience!

honesttalk21:
And when I identified specifically showed what I bolded to clearly show you.

Yes — the statement is accurate according to mainstream Sunni theology.
Here is the precise breakdown:
“He may still use stages or means (e.g., Adam from clay) without those means limiting or contradicting His power.”
The first part (“He may still use stages or means”) is supported by the Qur’an and Hadith, which describe Adam’s formation involving successive stages of clay, molding, and the breathing of the spirit.
The bolded part is the key theological safeguard: those stages do not function as independent causes or partners that Allah needs. In Ashʿarī (and broadly Sunni) aqīdah, any apparent means or sequential processes are themselves created by Allah’s will and command. They have no real causal power of their own; they are only the customary patterns (ʿādah) that Allah has established.
Therefore:
The stages do not “limit” Allah’s power (He is not dependent on them).
They do not “contradict” kun fa yakūn (the command remains the sole, sufficient creative act from Allah’s side).
This is why classical Sunni scholars can simultaneously affirm:
Creation occurs by Allah’s will and command alone, and
The Qur’anic narrative of Adam includes ordered stages.
The two are not in conflict once the distinction between required external means and divinely ordained stages is maintained.

I think I have asked you this question before.
1. Allah took dust and probably added water
2. Then Allah took the mud and molded it with his two hands
3. Then Allah waited 40 days or 40 years for the mud to dry.
4. Then Allah breathe of his spirit into Adam.
5.Then Allah instructed the Angels to prostrate to Adam Qur'an 15:28–29, Qur'an 38:71–7[/b]2 and [b]Qur'an 32:9


Was Adam created by several ACTIVITIES or by the command BE?

When did Allah say KUNFAYAKUN and Adam was?

honesttalk21:
Remember I asked you about how Mary conceived Jesus who still went through gestation and labour delivery?

Did I ever tell you that Jesus was created by a command like Allah?

I told you tha ALL Creations in the Bible were created by Command , EXCEPT the creation of Adam and Eve .

Allah or Jibril BLEW into the Farjaha of Mary


Moreover,
You are confusing GROWTH or DEVELOPMENT with CREATION.

Creation is Bringing something that isnt into EXISTENCE.

Growth and Development has to do with Something ALREADY in existence Metamorphosing into something else.


All you needed to do was to ask yourself the physical activity done on Mary by YHWH if it exists.

doffman:
Stop disgracing yourself nah 🤣

The point is did you believe in oneness of God as the verses said .

Shioor

Even if I explain line by line to you , you will never understand nah because you are an unbeliever .

Thank God na you cast your self with using AI AHAAAA

Lobatan . You don cast again

How far now ?


🤣

Muslims can tell OGBGI Iro for Africa.

Why did you delete the first part of the text

Qur'an 29:46
Do not argue with the People of the Scripture except in the best manner—unless it is with those who act unjustly—and say, “We believe in what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to you. Our God and your God is one, and to Him we submit.”

1. Muslims are commanded not to argue with the people of the book
2. Muslims are to say
i. “We believe in what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to you.
ii. Our God and your God is one, and to Him we submit.”


Sorry!
Allah says you Muslims should say that you believe in your Qur'an and our Scriptures
AND THAT
Your Allah and Our God (Christians and Jews) is ONE
and
Unto MY God YOU submit !



Sorry!

Unto MY God YOU submit !


Was Allah telling lies?

honesttalk21:
For sake of curiosity and to put your test to use having a little time for fun. Here are my results:

(≤40 words each, truthful/factual per mainstream Islamic theology):

1. What is Kunfayakun?
Kun fayakūn (“Be, and it is”) is Allah’s creative command. When He decrees something, it exists by His will and power alone (Qur’an 2:117, 3:47, 3:59, 36:82, 40:68).

Okay!

Specially by his Command for something to BE

honesttalk21:
2. Does Kunfayakun require any other input or physical actions other than the speech of Allah for its fulfilment?
No. Fulfilment needs only Allah’s will and command. He may still use stages or means (e.g., Adam from clay) without those means limiting or contradicting His power.

Sorry!
The BOLDED wasn't part of what you got. That was your own addition because it is a contradiction.

1. Fulfilment needs only Allah’s will and command.

The word ONLY is an exclusive word that negates any other additions.
2. He may still use stages or means (e.g., Adam from clay) without those means limiting or contradicting His power contradicts the Kunfayakun.

If Allah uses stages, rach of the stages would still be by his command and no physical actions

honesttalk21:
3. What are the Key Characteristics of Kun Faya Kun?
Instant efficacy of divine will; no effort, tools, or time required from Allah; absolute creative power; processes or secondary causes remain possible if Allah wills them.

Instant efficacy of divine will means that there is zero time line like 40 days or 40 years.

honesttalk21:
I went on to question point 2 and 3 relations and got:

Allah does not require physical actions or means (point 2).
He may still employ them if He chooses (point 3).
These two statements do not contradict each other. They are the standard mainstream Islamic position.

Let's see yours.

Requiring any other physical activity goes against Kunfayakun!


TO HELP YOU, HERE IS A PROMPT AND THE ANSWER

Emphatically and in less than 40 words each, answer the question according to the best scholarly Sunni Islamic interpretation:
"Can Kunfayakun of Allah be conjoined with physical actions other than the speech of Allah in creation"?

Secondly, explain why?


So, you can see that you are WRONG!

doffman:
Can unbeliever understand simple sentence ?

No nah 🤣🤣

A very clear Quran statement to every normal person is very difficult for an unbeliever to understand . Shioor

Oya , this is the Quran verse you want to manipulate ,


Oya explain your self !

Why are you dodging a simple question?

Your God says:

Unto MY God YOU submit !
Read Qur'an 29:46 again now!!

Was he telling lies as usual ?

doffman:
Kininwi 😂🤣

Omo , see this unbeliever quickly japa again ahaaaa.

Anytime I catch her you , you will quickly japa to a new question asap 🤣🤣.

Is that what I asked you ?

Guy stop disgracing yourself nah

Shioor .

I am not the responsible for your virus nah. You will copy and paste from your WhatsApp group tire .

I can see you don’t have anything again .

Last chance. , go back to our last discussion or I wil combine you with you fellow unbelievers and cane you together !

Oya , your time start now ⏰

This is your last chance o

I asked you a simple question with evidences provided.


Show us the verses of
1. Breastfeeding an adult man ten times
2. Verses of rajam


Have you Muslims deleted it?

Shior!

doffman:
Kininwi

What this unbeliever saying self 🤣🤣

You just Dey disgracing yourself .

Na by force to force your fake bibeli to us ahaaa.

Your book don cast nah and it has been corrupted , edited by your people . Bibeli is not a Devine injeel given to Issa (pbuh)

I think , you are the one I have tutored about this your fake bible in this forum . Oya read :


Quran 5:14

And from those who say, “We are Christians,” We took their covenant, but they neglected a portion of what they had been commanded to uphold. So We let hostility and enmity arise between them until the Day of Judgment, and soon Allah will inform them of all they have done.


So woe to those who distort the Scripture with their own hands then say, “This is from Allah”—seeking a fleeting gain! So woe to those for what their hands have written, and woe to those for what they have earned'. (Quran 2:79)


Guy woe to your people who edited your bibeli o and given your agbakooooooo Christianity invented by Paul .

Shioor , Tueeh


The main point now is does your bible really God word or not corrupted ?

I give you assignment to verify from your own Bible and see the truth or ask me .

Tell me
Where is the verse of stonning innocent women (Rajam) AND the verse of breastfeeding an adult man TEN times in the Qur'an?

Who shamefully removed, deleted and expunged it and WHY?

Was it found Shameful that the Holy Book of Allah would contain such?

Sahih Muslim 1452 b
'Amra reported that she heard 'A'isha (Allah he pleased with her) discussing fosterage which (makes marriage) unlawful; and she ('A'isha) said: There was revealed in the Holy Qur'an ten clear sucklings, and then five clear (sucklings).

Let me give you a other EVIDENCE

Sahih Muslim 1452 a
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with, her) reported that it had been revealed in the Holy Qur'an that ten clear sucklings make the marriage unlawful, then it was abrogated (and substituted) by five sucklings and Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) died and it was before that time (found) in the Holy Qur'an (and recited by the Muslims).




Where is the verse of stonning innocent women (Rajam) AND the verse of breastfeeding an adult man TEN times in the Qur'an?

Who shamefully removed, deleted and expunged it and WHY?


Shior!

Truthseeker10:
According to the Bible verse in the screenshot below, what exactly is the "spirit" that departs from man when he dies?

Are you from Dundee United FC!?

You repeated the questions thrice without thinking deeply about the response.
Is it because it didn't go along with your fbhrainewaschinngs!?


Pause to think,
And ANSWER MY QUESTIONS TOO
or SCRAM!!




His thoughts perish because he cannot achieve ANY PLANS he has made!

Both Abraham's bossom and Hell are WITH God in the context of in a Place Prepared by God.

Thus, the spirit is relocated from this world into the PLACE prepared by God.

In human terms, you are recalled back to the Headquarters without your physical body for your debriefing
LOL!




Let me ask you a question:
1. Are you with or not with God in His House as described by Jesus after Resurrection?

John 14:2-3:
"In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to myself; that where I am, there you may be also."


2. What do you think this scripture mean?

Rom 11:29:
"For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."

Like the election of the Israelites is irrevocable or permanent

doffman:
So you can’t challenge my claim about your bible ?

🤣🤣

Even u self know you doesn’t understand yourself.
Shioor

Can unbeliever understand Quran ni ?

Shioor

Its not about you, its about what your God said.

Are his words weightless to you!?


Your God says:

Unto MY God YOU submit !
Read Qur'an 29:46 again now!!

Was he telling lies as usual ?

doffman:
Kininwi

What this unbeliever saying self 🤣🤣

You just Dey disgracing yourself .

Na by force to force your fake bibeli to us ahaaa.

Your book don cast nah and it has been corrupted , edited by your people . Bibeli is not a Devine injeel given to Issa (pbuh)

I think , you are the one I have tutored about this your fake bible in this forum . Oya read :


Quran 5:14

And from those who say, “We are Christians,” We took their covenant, but they neglected a portion of what they had been commanded to uphold. So We let hostility and enmity arise between them until the Day of Judgment, and soon Allah will inform them of all they have done.


So woe to those who distort the Scripture with their own hands then say, “This is from Allah”—seeking a fleeting gain! So woe to those for what their hands have written, and woe to those for what they have earned'. (Quran 2:79)


Guy woe to your people who edited your bibeli o and given your agbakooooooo Christianity invented by Paul .

Shioor , Tueeh


The main point now is does your bible really God word or not corrupted ?

I give you assignment to verify from your own Bible and see the truth or ask me .

Your God says:

Unto MY God you submit !
Read Qur'an 29:46 again now!!

Was he telling lies as usual ?

Truthseeker10:
Explain what the spirit is using the bible verse in the screenshot below.

Truthseeker10:
Explain Ecclesiastics 12:7 below.

King James Bible
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

His thoughts perish because he cannot achieve ANY PLANS he has made!

Both Abraham's bossom and Hell are WITH God in the context of in a Place Prepared by God.

Thus, the spirit is relocated from this world into the PLACE prepared by God.

In human terms, you are recalled back to the Headquarters without your physical body for your debriefing
LOL!




Let me ask you a question:
1. Are you with or not with God in His House as described by Jesus after Resurrection?

John 14:2-3:
"In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to myself; that where I am, there you may be also."


2. What do you think this scripture mean?

Rom 11:29:
"For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."

Like the election of the Israelites is irrevocable or permanent

jaephoenix:
1. Give me instances of those healings your god did

I am a good example
My late uncle who was blind is another

jaephoenix:
2. Yet same god says in the bible that WE SHOULD PRAY FOR ANYTHING

We tell God about EVERYTHING!
The good , the bad and the ugly!!

jaephoenix:
So despite all the prayers,Yhwh cannot fix Nigeria
Also you said your prayers work,yet hopsitals in Nigeria witness many deaths after operations where prayers are offered but advanced countries where surgeons rarely pray before ops have better outcomes. Make it make sense

It is neither God's duty to fix Nigeria
NOR
His duty to fix Nigerian hospitals.

We reap only what we have sown!

Do you cleanup your teenage children's room for them or you tell them to clean it up?

jaephoenix:
3. Copying stuff from Google or chatgpt doesnt take the place of professionals. Read what I typed. I explained how their sight works. Their sights are not complete like when they are 3 or 4 months
And I wonder why you asked this question in the first place

Agreed sight not perfect BUT they aren't blind!
That was why I used the cinematic camera as an example

jaephoenix:
4. Evolution simply talks about how humans change. It doesnt talk about atoms
There are many instances of evolution which happens in humans and animals
Example is our ppendix,tails,wisdom tooth etc. Those organs evolved

But there was a time when there was no life but atoms amd molecules isn't it.

This is the frontier I wanted you to push towards.

jaephoenix:
So you have twisted the narration to Yhwh doesnt keep from dying? Don't you christians disturb us with 'testimonies' how your god saved your asses from death? Why turn it around now?

Yes, because God heals!
But we know that God doesn't stop all deaths!

jaephoenix:
The mortality rates in Nigeria is far higher than those countries you listed,in every age group both under 5,maternal,fetal and geriatric mortalities. Dont even go there
Even the life expectancy of Nigeria is low compared to them. We have life expectancy of 54 years while they have up to 90 years.
So park well with your useless prayers

Mortality is high because God intended us to use herbs and technology for solving our problems and not just prayers!
AND
Nigeria is not only technically backward, it is corrupt!

Thus, we are reaping exactly what we have planted.

jaephoenix:
The human eye cannot comprehend visual impulses. Meaning that the brain isnt specialized enough to interprete visual cues even though the baby is 'seeing'. So in all intents and purposes, they are blind. There are many organs that start growing in the womb but are still 'useless' at birth like genitals etc. In fact the brain keeps on growing after birth to accommodate more visual cues

No, babies are not born blind. Healthy newborns can see at birth, but their vision is very blurry, limited in range, and mostly in black, white, and shades of gray.

The point is that the eyes and the brain seem to have EVERYTHING it needs for proper sight irrespective of if the eyes "mature" through use or not.

I think the babies eyes is like giving a Blackmagic URSA Mini Pro 12K cinematic camera to a novice: the production would be disappointing!

jaephoenix:
About evolution, its quite predictable up to a point. We cant 100% predict it
And evolution has nothing to do with big bang. I dont know what is your christians problem. Simply research basic concepts before engaging on them

You are not getting my point!

Evolution and big bang are not usually discussed in the same sentence. Evolution is discussed only AFTER the basic elementary DNA/RNA is set.

The theory of evolution traces life back to a last universal common ancestor with DNA/RNA-based genetics, a genetic code, ribosomes, and core metabolism that lived roughly about 2-4 billion years ago.

The theory assumes that the genetic codes continued to increase in size and complexity.

Atoms are the basic building block of everything. When did they combine enough with the right pattern to contain the right information we now call DNA/RNA/gene?


Every Useful Information must have these Five Parts
1. Information source : where the message originates.
2. An encoding of the message into some representational form,
3. A medium/platform to store or transmit that form,
4. A decoding mechanism that can reconstruct meaning, and
5. A target that can interpret and act on that meaning.

These definitely are not present in basic atoms or molecules however complex.
It is worse when you take it up to when no atom or molecule existed (just at big bang)







So, my question again:
How far can we project evolution?
Can we push it up to the atoms that make up molecules or to the big bang?

WHY?: It seems information written continuously continued to grow till the full DNA as we know it have grown.

jaephoenix:
So with all you have said,why is morbidity and mortality higher in Nigeria, a prayerful country than less prayerful countries like UK,US,NZ etc?
I thought u r smart TenQ but then you're a Christian....

Everyone must die through one means or the other.

BUT THEN
Who told you that it is God's job to prevent people from dying?
Except by mercy, when its your time, you go: prayer or no prayer.


By the way, using your own argument:
Why are there daily mortalities in the most advanced hospitals in UK, USA. Germany, France, NZ and China?







As a digression, I have a question!
I saw a video of a newborn baby. He came out with eyes opened and looking about the delivery ward (the lights seem too bright for it).

Then I wondered:
How did the eyes got prepared in 9 months for what wasn't needed in the womb (sight) but needed outside.


So, my question :
How far can we project evolution?
Is it up to the atoms that make up molecules or to the big bang?

WHY?: It seems information written continuously continued to grow till the full DNA as we know it have been developed.

honesttalk21
Something is definitely wrong. I cannot post anything above 50 words again.

So, answers to your questions from a neutral source

doffman:
See this one just Dey disgracing himself ahaaaaaaaa🤣🤣🤣🤣

We believe in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to you. Our God and your God is ˹only˺ One. And to Him we ˹fully˺ submit.”


Did you ever believe in oneness of God ?

No be Jesus be your god ?

Or you want to change mouth now ?

You should know that that the scripture is not your fake bible nah .

You know nah . 🤣

You are not among those that believe in Injeel.

Pele guy 🤣

Your God say:

Unto MY God you submit !
Read Qur'an 29:46 again now!!

Is he telling lies ?


Do you want me to write you a prompt to interpret the words of Allah to you?

Shior!

RollinTNDA:
Abeg you lost argument bro
Which one be spirit body again
Continue believing rubbish

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN4I5BlX3bM&si=1Ao4cvPXb6XIpgAO&themeRefresh=1



There is always a minority report that should make a skeptic think

Uchesis:
Still doesn't change the fact that your so called hellfire is a myth and not real

Have a nice day

No problem!

I hope you wouldn't have to remember this particular day when it has become too late.

The consequence of having a God is JUSTICE : your only escape is IFF God isn't Real.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN4I5BlX3bM&si=1Ao4cvPXb6XIpgAO&themeRefresh=1

Have a good day!

I don't know what happened. Nairaland wouldn't allow me to post anything. Its not even about the length because it still wouldn't allow me post 1/4 of this post.


Back to the discussions,
I did NOT ask you to Believe that Jesus is YHWH, but I think it is academic honesty to say

"Yes. the Bible Appears to say that Jesus is YHWH wrt the book of Zachariah and the Book of John"

BUT,
Just as the Crucification of Jesus, the Bible says it BUT I don't believe it.


This is fairer to say rather than your current posture.


YOU ASKED FOR EVIDENCES
DO YOU WANT ME TO GIVE YOU ANOTHER EVIDENCE FROM THE BIBLE OR YOU ARE DONE?

Mr honesttalk21
I have done all I could to repost my writeup.

Here, I have resorted to attaching the image files. Let's hope this will go through.

Mr honesttalk21
So, here is PART ONE did NOT hold



Let me see part TWO

Mr honesttalk21
I don't know why Nairaland is preventing my post to upload.

I will break them into two or three parts to find where the problem is.




So, here is PART ONE if it will hold

Wait....